And that's a fair stance and thank you for being upfront about it without getting condescending. I guess I differ in that I don't think it's that hard. Not to build a playoff team at least. Look at Atlanta, Toronto, even Utah now as a fringe playoff team. None of their guys are exactly HOF once a generation players. So to me if Cousins was so special that we should keep trying then we would have won a lot more by now. And if he isn't that special then IMO we can win without having some HOF superstar like the teams I've mentioned (and there are more). There's always free agency as well though it's unlikely. Now will we win a championship? Probably not, but neither did our best team. What's more important is being close and giving fans the excitement of cheering for their team in the playoffs. Especially after being out of it for so long.
Cousins isn't a winner?
- Thread starter New Era
- Start date
And that's a fair stance and thank you for being upfront about it without getting condescending. I guess I differ in that I don't think it's that hard. Not to build a playoff team at least. Look at Atlanta, Toronto, even Utah now as a fringe playoff team. None of their guys are exactly HOF once a generation players. So to me if Cousins was so special that we should keep trying then we would have won a lot more by now. And if he isn't that special then IMO we can win without having some HOF superstar like the teams I've mentioned (and there are more). There's always free agency as well though it's unlikely. Now will we win a championship? Probably not, but neither did our best team. What's more important is being close and giving fans the excitement of cheering for their team in the playoffs. Especially after being out of it for so long.
NowImLost
Bench
Yeah man, his body language on the court is horrible.
When things are getting sour, you can see him shrink into a mental midget.
His head hangs low, walks around like a defeated human being.
It drastically affects the team because he's the so called "leader" and the leaders don't do that to their comrades, they aren't supposed to demoralize their team and that is what DeMarcus does with his uncontrolled emotions.
No one is going to tell him to shut his face and chill because no one is capable of doing so.
No player on the team is capable of producing something on the court worthy of DeMarcus' respect.
Since no one can produce and back it up, they aren't granted permission to step up to him.
I thought Rondo was going to be the chosen one to do the job, but even Rondo cannot help DeMarcus put himself in place to be able to allow himself assess himself. There are times where Rondo will be like, chill bro, but won't commit to it to constantly remind him to chill.
I'm talking about in game stuff, they discuss it in the locker room obviously but when its on the court, nada.
Don't get me wrong, his skill set and talents are rare for a big man.
You don't see big dudes ball like that but...
The dude is supposedly the "best" player on the team yet he is the worst candidate to be called "leader."
It may sound like a joke but Demarcus seriously needs a zen master to allow him to find his zen.
I'm not talking about Phil Jackson, I'm talking someone who has the mental/spiritual/psychological capacity to tame the beast.
Hypothetically, think of KG coming here to be like, "DeMarcus, you need to shut the !@#$ up and control your !@#$. You can be great but you are your worst enemy. You are hindering yourself from achieving basketball nirvana and ascending amongst BBALL GODS. You are the BEST player on this team, you affect them and you don't even see it. You don't trust them because their inept and incompetent and some of them ARE, BUT STILL. Make your team better! Trust them! You're losing already so why not try losing TOGETHER than by yourself! Better yet, instead of winning by yourself, win together..!"
Thing is, DeMarcus would probably spin it the wrong way and get all defensive, hearing but not listening. If that happens, there is no hope for him.
Seriously.
Victim mentality to be honest.
It's like what everyone says, it is all mental.
DeMarcus needs to find his zen guys, until that moment comes...
And don't say winning will help him find his zen.
There was a game where the team was on its way to a sure win, something happened and he was still crying.
He doesn't have the "it" factor.
The "it" factor that makes other players follow and become better players.
tl;dr - DeMarcus doesn't possess LEADERSHIP qualities.
...yet.
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PurpleHaze
All-Star
I agree and its so unfortunate, frustrating for most Kings fans. So much incredible physical talent, so little mental toughness. Seeing Cousins on the court looks like suffering from permanent case of hemorrhoids with unsmiling cry baby face, sour pus attitude. Incredibly unprofessional and immature. Yes, he's gotten better avoiding regular completely over the top outbursts but until corrects an overall negative image he'll just be a cry baby loser who puts up big numbers.
Alright cool. Here's my next question - sort of probing deeper. Do you believe that under Karl and this current management, that we would have had a better season this year, and possibly next season as well given the current situation, if we had traded Cousins prior to the start of the season for players more suited to Karl's style, and then brought in guys to fit that style as well? In other words, you and many have fairly pointed out that the current roster doesn't fit how Karl wants to play. So if we had instead traded DeMarcus and built around how Karl wanted to play, would that have been better than the current situation the team is in? Personally my answer is yes, and I think we'd be faring better in the playoff chase. Would that team win a championship - unlikely, but my goal here is playoffs first. And so if we had done that, I would not say that the organization had failed. What's your take?
You said your goal is to make the playoffs first. Can I assume that you think a first round playoff loss would be acceptable as a stepping stone to greater things? Because if that's the case than giving Karl what he wanted and trading Cousins for lesser veterans would still represent regression not progress. Even if you get to the first round with a group of steady roleplayers, your ceiling is capped there until you find a star. Keeping DeMarcus is still the better move because it means the hardest part of the equation has already been solved. Look who we traded to get Rudy Gay - spare parts. Just this off-season Rondo signed here to play with DeMarcus. You can swap other pieces in and out as long as you already have your star. Playoffs or bust is a shortsighted strategy if you aren't also considering growth potential.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Cousins quit on his team, his coach and his fans. If you like quitters, he's your guy. Feel free to post all those great stats he has and how he's the victim and how those bad coaches caused him to quit. Maybe we should start a victim relief fund for him.
Quitting is one thing; putting on the act that he's just confused, sad, oblivious - an innocent bystander - is totally disingenuous and makes my stomach turn. I'm sick of the act. Yeah, he has talent. I don't a give a damn. I don't applaud guys who quit on their team, who engage in a passive aggressive work stoppage. Now the Kings are going to reward him for his bad behavior. He won. So much for the culture, which continues to be sacrificed on the altar of expediency with this organization.
Quitting is one thing; putting on the act that he's just confused, sad, oblivious - an innocent bystander - is totally disingenuous and makes my stomach turn. I'm sick of the act. Yeah, he has talent. I don't a give a damn. I don't applaud guys who quit on their team, who engage in a passive aggressive work stoppage. Now the Kings are going to reward him for his bad behavior. He won. So much for the culture, which continues to be sacrificed on the altar of expediency with this organization.
Shortsightedness that at least gets you somewhere is better than continuing to aim for that long term goal but not get anywhere. Look, if this FO was capable of building a contender around Cousins we damn well should have seen it by the next coach we hire (which is my original point of discussion - if the next one fails again what do you do?). One more coach fired, one more season not in the playoffs - how much will FOs or good coaches want to come here? You can't achieve long term goals if you're not even hitting short-term ones.
In any case, I brought up examples such as Toronto and Atlanta, who I think aren't first round exits. Is it that hard to find the calibre of players that they have? If Cousins is that good, we should be able to trade him for a Kyle Lowry equivalent + other parts.
Need I remind you that we haven't sniffed the playoffs for 8 years? If you're telling me I can have 5 straight years of first round playoff exits my response is where do I sign? I'm sick of talk of growth potential. We've talked about it for what, at least 4 years now and at this point are not much closer to being in the playoffs.
Hey, if the FO can build around Cousins and get us to the playoffs, and if that in your opinion has growth potential that'd be great. But if this FO is incapable of doing so, or if Cousins is incapable of being the lead man on a good team, then please give me the capped first round exits.
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Hire a defensive coach coach and we will see the team win. Defense wins. Cousins knows it, Rondo knows it, Vlade knows it...Karl has never understood this..... Terrible, terrible stint in Sac. Started with him trying to trade Cousins in the Summer but I guess Karl gets a pass and Cousins is the cancer....smh.
Yup that is not yet, and I never outrightly advocated trading Cousins now in this thread. So how will you define whether the coach is tailored for defense? Based on product on the floor, or coach's reputation/ comments? Because they can contradict themselves. For example, if we hire Thibs but the team plays crap D, do you then blame the players or the coach? Malone was a defense-first coach and the team's defense was still pretty bad in his first season.
MOD NOTE: We're all cranky and out-of-sorts and pretty sensitive about the Kings right now. All that considered, people need to remember to remain civil and NOT resort to personal insults. Just a general warning this time... and a note that a couple of comments have been deleted.
kupman
Starter
You do a nice job of summarizing my biggest concerns with DMC. His physical talents are nothing short of great, but mentally there are really big red flags. We have seen him lose-it over and over for 5 years now. Sometimes on the court and sometimes off the court. His mood clearly negatively impacts the team as a whole IMO. And here is the thing, he has yet to play under heavy pressure. The kind of pressure that comes with big play-off games. When things go wrong in a heavily pressurized situation how is he going to handle it? How is he going to handle the bad calls that always happen in the really big games? He handles them very poorly now, often to the point of de-compensation.
So yeah, maybe with the right coach and the right players around him we can become play-off bound once again. But at that point we are going into high pressured play-off situations with our center piece having a history of emotional outburts. You don't think teams are going to exploit that in the play-offs? So yeah, he has HOF physical skills, but I am not sold that he has emotional maturity that it takes to win in this league.
Jerichoholic
Bench
Let me just start by saying that this post is not intended to change any opinions, I'm sure it won't. I doubt anybody's on here will, we all have our sides and disagreements just tend to make us stick to them even more, human nature. I just want to say my piece here.
Another thing, this is not a point putting all the blame on Cousins and saying that we should keep George Karl, we shouldn't. I think Karl has had a great career, but perhaps did his worst coaching job here, maybe he didn't know what he was getting into. He did not utilize his players correctly at all, we don't need to be NBA coaches ourselves to see that. Him leaving is probably the best for everyone at this point.
Now onto Cousins. I'm taking the unpopular side, I don't believe we will ever be a winning team with him and I don't know if any team will. Best case we sneak into an 8th seed in a bad conference, but I don't care about that. I want a championship someday and I don't think Cousins will ever get one of those unless it's late in his career and he gets a cheap one as an end of bench player. As a premier player you need to have a certain character to win championships. As a premier player you must be a leader, someone the team respects and wants to be more like. He makes his teammates better on the court with his play and he gives his teammates confidence that when the game is on the line or when things are going bad that he will always be there, keep his cool, and make a big play that gets the win or will turn things around. With a superstar player you know that it's just a matter of time before they turn it on. Off the court a superstar motivates his teammates, can be positive or negative, but motivating nonetheless. He makes his teammates believe that greatness is coming, they just need to put in the same work that he does and give the same effort.
Cousins is the opposite of this and his teammates know this, in fact I would say the entire league knows it. He doesn't make his teammates better, sure he can pass well for a big man, he will get assists, but he will end up with even more turnovers and fouls. Do you think his teammates think he will keep his cool when things are going bad? Not a chance! He glares at the refs and gives up an easy transition basket because they miss one foul call, might even be the right no-call. His teammates can't rely on him to always be there, quite literally. Basketball is a game of runs, during any of those opponent's runs Cousins might get ejected from the game for complaining or at the very least commit a couple of stupid fouls and be out of the game for awhile. What about off the court? He motivates no one, positively or negatively. He blames and he complains, so there is negativity, it's just not motivating, it's just annoying and destructive. Sure, during a winning streak things are all good, but as soon as something bad happens it all falls off the rails. Take a look at this 5 game winning streak, everything was cool, everyone was getting along, Cousins and Karl included. Then came one double overtime loss to the Hornets, it was a good game, they should be proud of the effort, instead this team quit. Cousins is this team's best player, it is up to him and to some extent Rondo to make sure that didn't happen, they failed.
Let's look at some of the statistics, I'm going to use the ones Bricklayer used in his post as an example. I see where you are going with this, but I think these things can be interpreted in a number of ways. This really doesn't tell me how great Cousins is, it does tell me how great Curry, James, and Westbrook are though. It also tells me how good the Spurs team is, but that isn't really news. Look, every team's leading scorer is going to have a plus scoring number when they are in and a minus one when they are out. They contribute the majority of shots and points, they have the highest impact on the game. Most of a team's points will be scored with their best player on the floor, that's just basketball. We aren't debating whether Cousins is a good player, he is, he is our best player. In fact a +2.4 really isn't that impressive, we barely outscore our opponents when he is on the floor. Now the -8.3 does say something, it can say that the supporting cast is bad, which they probably are. Is it because of lack of talent though or a lack of effort? That's another discussion. Back to Cousins, bottom line, with him on the floor we are slightly better than the opponent, with him off the floor we are significantly worse. That can be said for any team's best scorer. Look at the Warriors, they are dominate with Curry on the floor, with him off of it they are almost as bad as the Kings. What does that say? Is Curry's supporting cast horrible as well? We know that isn't true.
I really think the worst thing that happened was that 9-6 start that the Kings had last year. That led a lot of people to believe that we had it all figured out, all it took was Michael Malone, he made everything work. I like Malone, I give him a lot of credit and I do think we would be in a somewhat better place this year if we had him instead of Karl, but not that different. That small sample size last year told us nothing, it was just a short part of a long season, let's not overvalue it.
This team needs a different direction, we have some good players, but we need more and I think trading Cousins can give us some of those. I don't think we will get better immediately. That rarely happens. Like when Toronto traded Rudy Gay and went from a last place team to a top 4 playoff team almost right away. I had to get that in, another topic though. Trade Cousins and give this team a full season and offseason without him and then let's talk again and see if we are truly disappointed by the results.
Another thing, this is not a point putting all the blame on Cousins and saying that we should keep George Karl, we shouldn't. I think Karl has had a great career, but perhaps did his worst coaching job here, maybe he didn't know what he was getting into. He did not utilize his players correctly at all, we don't need to be NBA coaches ourselves to see that. Him leaving is probably the best for everyone at this point.
Now onto Cousins. I'm taking the unpopular side, I don't believe we will ever be a winning team with him and I don't know if any team will. Best case we sneak into an 8th seed in a bad conference, but I don't care about that. I want a championship someday and I don't think Cousins will ever get one of those unless it's late in his career and he gets a cheap one as an end of bench player. As a premier player you need to have a certain character to win championships. As a premier player you must be a leader, someone the team respects and wants to be more like. He makes his teammates better on the court with his play and he gives his teammates confidence that when the game is on the line or when things are going bad that he will always be there, keep his cool, and make a big play that gets the win or will turn things around. With a superstar player you know that it's just a matter of time before they turn it on. Off the court a superstar motivates his teammates, can be positive or negative, but motivating nonetheless. He makes his teammates believe that greatness is coming, they just need to put in the same work that he does and give the same effort.
Cousins is the opposite of this and his teammates know this, in fact I would say the entire league knows it. He doesn't make his teammates better, sure he can pass well for a big man, he will get assists, but he will end up with even more turnovers and fouls. Do you think his teammates think he will keep his cool when things are going bad? Not a chance! He glares at the refs and gives up an easy transition basket because they miss one foul call, might even be the right no-call. His teammates can't rely on him to always be there, quite literally. Basketball is a game of runs, during any of those opponent's runs Cousins might get ejected from the game for complaining or at the very least commit a couple of stupid fouls and be out of the game for awhile. What about off the court? He motivates no one, positively or negatively. He blames and he complains, so there is negativity, it's just not motivating, it's just annoying and destructive. Sure, during a winning streak things are all good, but as soon as something bad happens it all falls off the rails. Take a look at this 5 game winning streak, everything was cool, everyone was getting along, Cousins and Karl included. Then came one double overtime loss to the Hornets, it was a good game, they should be proud of the effort, instead this team quit. Cousins is this team's best player, it is up to him and to some extent Rondo to make sure that didn't happen, they failed.
Let's look at some of the statistics, I'm going to use the ones Bricklayer used in his post as an example. I see where you are going with this, but I think these things can be interpreted in a number of ways. This really doesn't tell me how great Cousins is, it does tell me how great Curry, James, and Westbrook are though. It also tells me how good the Spurs team is, but that isn't really news. Look, every team's leading scorer is going to have a plus scoring number when they are in and a minus one when they are out. They contribute the majority of shots and points, they have the highest impact on the game. Most of a team's points will be scored with their best player on the floor, that's just basketball. We aren't debating whether Cousins is a good player, he is, he is our best player. In fact a +2.4 really isn't that impressive, we barely outscore our opponents when he is on the floor. Now the -8.3 does say something, it can say that the supporting cast is bad, which they probably are. Is it because of lack of talent though or a lack of effort? That's another discussion. Back to Cousins, bottom line, with him on the floor we are slightly better than the opponent, with him off the floor we are significantly worse. That can be said for any team's best scorer. Look at the Warriors, they are dominate with Curry on the floor, with him off of it they are almost as bad as the Kings. What does that say? Is Curry's supporting cast horrible as well? We know that isn't true.
I really think the worst thing that happened was that 9-6 start that the Kings had last year. That led a lot of people to believe that we had it all figured out, all it took was Michael Malone, he made everything work. I like Malone, I give him a lot of credit and I do think we would be in a somewhat better place this year if we had him instead of Karl, but not that different. That small sample size last year told us nothing, it was just a short part of a long season, let's not overvalue it.
This team needs a different direction, we have some good players, but we need more and I think trading Cousins can give us some of those. I don't think we will get better immediately. That rarely happens. Like when Toronto traded Rudy Gay and went from a last place team to a top 4 playoff team almost right away. I had to get that in, another topic though. Trade Cousins and give this team a full season and offseason without him and then let's talk again and see if we are truly disappointed by the results.
fansinceday1
Starter
Kills me that even jason ross and scott goodyear are on the "we haven't won more than 30 games with cousins" bandwagon. GD everyone is ignoring the obvious.
Today wasn't enough to tell them what most of us see? This franchise is probably the most dysfunctional franchise in the NBA. It has been for all of Cousins tenure!!!!!!
Marc Spears said it best on Daves show. You have the best center in the NBA on your team and you want to trade him? You guys aren't NY or LA. You won't come by another dominant player like him again. You need to make it work.
And it all begins with getting your FO together. This past week proves they haven't come close to figuring it out. Us trading Cousins won't solve our larger problem. Our ownership and FO.
Today wasn't enough to tell them what most of us see? This franchise is probably the most dysfunctional franchise in the NBA. It has been for all of Cousins tenure!!!!!!
Marc Spears said it best on Daves show. You have the best center in the NBA on your team and you want to trade him? You guys aren't NY or LA. You won't come by another dominant player like him again. You need to make it work.
And it all begins with getting your FO together. This past week proves they haven't come close to figuring it out. Us trading Cousins won't solve our larger problem. Our ownership and FO.
IfAt1st
Starter
Agreed - this week has proven to the whole world that this front office is nowhere near unified and working together to reach the goal of NBA competitiveness.
They obviously STILL have the same problems of internal fighting, leaking to the media, not stepping up and taking responsibility, and inability to reach a consensus and work together.
They obviously STILL have the same problems of internal fighting, leaking to the media, not stepping up and taking responsibility, and inability to reach a consensus and work together.
Showtime
Starter
I think the primary factor in those defending DMC is that they don't want to accept the fact that it may not work out here with an all-world talent. Year after year, we watch our drafts bust and watch other teams develop all-stars. Year after year, we watch the Sacramento Tax cost us in free agency. Year after year, the front office's dysfunction hits us in the coaching ranks, as we have to scrape the bottom of the barrel and select first-timers or old wash-outs who have done little before and little since their stints here. It is a legitimate feeling to FINALLY get a top talent and hold on for dear life, afraid to lose that talent and watch it flourish elsewhere. But I think that fans need to be open to the thought that it very well may NEVER work out here with Demarcus, and that leaves you with either him spending the entirety of his career here and never winning, or both parties moving on. That is not an easy pill to swallow, and I totally get why, but it doesn't mean we avoid that dose of reality.
Marc Spears gets it.
gunks
Hall of Famer
At this point, I'm down with trading Cousins. ....
.... just so I can be a fan of a less enept franchise!
Honestly, anyone but the Lakers.
Granted, I'd rather be a Kings fan, but this team doesn't make it easy. Our FO continues to be a joke (and no, I'm not blaming Vlade).... With no end in sight as far as incompetence goes.
.... just so I can be a fan of a less enept franchise!
Honestly, anyone but the Lakers.
Granted, I'd rather be a Kings fan, but this team doesn't make it easy. Our FO continues to be a joke (and no, I'm not blaming Vlade).... With no end in sight as far as incompetence goes.
jcwkings
All-Star
If you want to hear my reasons for why I feel Cousins drags this team down more often than not listen to Lowe's podcast from today with Amick(or at least the last 10 minutes or so where they discuss Cousins in particular). Mainly they talk about how his negative vibe breeds a culture of losing, something that analytics and stats can never measure. I usually disagree with Lowe on a lot of things and think he is a pompous prick, but he and Amick were on point there.
I will never deny his talent and when everything is going right he is downright lethal, unfortunately it seems things go right for him a few short stretches per season. The one thing that annoys me about this board is that the most ardent Cousins supporters can never admit the negative traits about Cousins, he can do no wrong, or its always someone elses fault. I have always give him his due when he is playing the right way, and have attacked him when he doesn't.
I will never deny his talent and when everything is going right he is downright lethal, unfortunately it seems things go right for him a few short stretches per season. The one thing that annoys me about this board is that the most ardent Cousins supporters can never admit the negative traits about Cousins, he can do no wrong, or its always someone elses fault. I have always give him his due when he is playing the right way, and have attacked him when he doesn't.
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He would have done/ would do a lot better in a stable franchise, which includes holding him accountable as a leader or star player as well. We are not that franchise.
LPKingsFan
All-Star
It's certainly worth a listen.
Lowe says a lot that I think some of his critics here would agree with: the many reasons why the Malone firing was a mistake; how Karl seems to have been mailing it in, and how his defensive schemes are packing the paint and giving up the three at will; how the Kings have stunk on defense despite (or because of) the merry-go-round of largely inept coaches since Adelman. His take on Cousins is nuanced--as it should be--that Cousins hasn't been put in a situation to succeed, but he hasn't made things better for himself, either.
It's also pretty hilarious to hear them react to the Stein tweet that the Kings are keeping Karl in real time.
White_Chocolate
Starter
Brick I know your numbers will always let you have a good argument in Cousins favor. I agree he has not necessarily been giving the proper tools (talent or credible coaches) to succeed in Sac. I don't even question the fact that Boogie is an amazing talent. The question you must ask yourself with any star player though is can Cousins be the best player on a title winning team? When you really think about it can he? Comparing him with Melo only helps my argument. A truly talented player who is not a winner at his core. I know all the stats point to amazing regular season accolades, but the fact remains the Kings are a mess, Boogie is not the leader we need, and I truly doubt we ever win with him.
Tetsu, I really like you as a poster. Your wit and your humor is great. But lately all your posts regarding Cousins/Karl have just been sarcasm-filled or snarky, and really don't do anything to aid proper and civil discussion. They also don't in any way show your fandom or passion for the team. Yeah you're entitled to post whatever you want, and I can ignore it if I don't like it. But as someone who's read your posts for a long time and respects you as a poster, my plea is to avoid posting these sort of hyperbolic sarcastic remarks. You're better than that.
K
KingMilz
Guest
Yet there still remain many other issues
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