I appreciate the levity, personally. It's not life and death here afterall, it's just basketball. We all care deeply (perhaps too much so?) or we wouldn't be following every scrap of good or bad news that comes our way. But it's good to be able to laugh about it too. Plus he's not directing the sarcasm at anyone in particular, just a general sentiment.
Cousins isn't a winner?
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Put Cousins on the Celtics roster with IT, Smart, Bradley, Crowder with Brad Stevens coaching, a smart seasoned GM in Ainge and a stable lockerroom and team culture and you have a legitimate contender.
What Cousins needs are hard working guys, that won't tolerate lacking effort on D. A group he can count on every night and a coach, who is smart enough to establish an offensive and defensive schemes, that work without Cousins on the floor, but are even better, when he plays.
He needs a team, where he is part of a well thought out system, not a team, where he basically is the system and games go to waste, when he isn't dominating his matchup.
Not his fault, that the Kings are simply too dumb, to put together a team like this.
What Cousins needs are hard working guys, that won't tolerate lacking effort on D. A group he can count on every night and a coach, who is smart enough to establish an offensive and defensive schemes, that work without Cousins on the floor, but are even better, when he plays.
He needs a team, where he is part of a well thought out system, not a team, where he basically is the system and games go to waste, when he isn't dominating his matchup.
Not his fault, that the Kings are simply too dumb, to put together a team like this.
I imagine I'd appreciate the levity a lot more were I part of the Cousins-at-all-costs team (that's not an unfair characterization is it? Several posters have said if Cousins is traded they will stop following the Kings), in which case such remarks are just making light of any opposition to Cousins. But as someone who is trying to sincerely discuss the merits of trading Cousins and going in a different direction, such remarks come off as dismissive of any real arguments (oh what's that you want to trade Cousins? Yeah let's trade him for Metta World Peace since you want Cousins off the team so bad), and like I said it adds nothing to discussion in a thread specifically meant for such discussion. I have no such issue when one makes such jokes in an opening post of a game thread for example.
K
I don't think you could have that team your suggesting but, we would be dumb to give up Cousins without getting at least 2 of those guys back you mentioned as well as some picks. Almost any All Star would be a beast with that group but the reality is most teams would want those guys in return for the All Star they get. It's not easy to trade for a star without givng some of those key pieces up.
Best center in league, but on any given night he can be worked by Gortat, Karl Anthony, stuffed by Bogut and Mozgov.
Bottom line in my opinion is if he is the best player on a team that team will not contend for a title. He needs guys at his level or better and then just maybe.
I hate the clippers with a passiin, but if boigie had paul and blakey instead of rondo and gay and he might just be a winner.
Bottom line in my opinion is if he is the best player on a team that team will not contend for a title. He needs guys at his level or better and then just maybe.
I hate the clippers with a passiin, but if boigie had paul and blakey instead of rondo and gay and he might just be a winner.
Indeed. The Celtics would lose all their assets to get Cousins.
But I wasn't advocating a Celtics-Kings trade. I wanted to point out, what kind of team Cousins would need to win.
And this is basically true for any star player.
Every player needs certain teammates to win. So saying, that Cousins isn't a winner, while he never had a team built to cover his weaknesses.
Cousins is one of the Kings best defenders, while he carries the offense completely. You just won't win like that.
But I wasn't advocating a Celtics-Kings trade. I wanted to point out, what kind of team Cousins would need to win.
And this is basically true for any star player.
Every player needs certain teammates to win. So saying, that Cousins isn't a winner, while he never had a team built to cover his weaknesses.
Cousins is one of the Kings best defenders, while he carries the offense completely. You just won't win like that.
Except for the fact that other superstars have managed to do so under trying circumstances. The Hornets, for example, when their entire ownership shifted to the NBA after that Shinn debacle (who was also having money issues and couldn't invest much into the team), and everything was basically put on hold as far as an overall strategy was concerned. They had a first year HC in Monty Williams in that 2011 season too. It was Paul and West and a bunch of role players and they still managed to win 46 games and make the playoffs in a MUCH MORE COMPETITIVE conference than we are seeing this season. And why was that? Because they had a legit MVP level player in Paul who carried as much weight on a team in 2008 as any player perhaps in history, and was able to translate that into wins despite lack of talent, despite lack of consistency in the bench, despite lack of coaching (Scott was horrible), despite lack of money, etc etc. He was able to carry that burden in 2011 as well, facing much of the same turmoil from the highest levels to the lowest, and he was still able to carry a team not only to .500 but make the playoffs. Finally, he had enough and wanted out. To act like nobody has ever faced this level of dysfunction and was successful is disingenuous. If anything, the fact that he isn't able to carry this team to a better record is an indication that he just isn't as good as you think he is, but there's nothing wrong with that.
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Maybe, but this is because Cousins is a big man. As a guard and SF a superstar might be less dependent on his teammates.
But I'm not sure, if Cousins truely needs more than other stars.
A stable environment, a decent coaching staff and high energy guys able to defend and run pick&rolls.
That's pretty.much all he needs. Unless of course you want to join the hyperbole train about Cousins antics.
But I'm not sure, if Cousins truely needs more than other stars.
A stable environment, a decent coaching staff and high energy guys able to defend and run pick&rolls.
That's pretty.much all he needs. Unless of course you want to join the hyperbole train about Cousins antics.
The problem with that is that if Karl isn't enforcing those things, Cousins can bark at guys to get them to do those things. This franchise caters to Demarcus, so why wouldn't he tear guys up for not doing their jobs? He doesn't. He sulks, he takes it out on the refs, he implodes at times. Very, very few times I've seen him go after guys for making mistakes and holding them accountable. Again, I don't buy the excuse that everybody around him is the problem. HE CAN IMPACT PEOPLE AROUND HIM.
I'm not interested in excuses. I'm not interested in all those speculations about Cousins character.
I focus solely on basketball. And for me it's clear as day, that we have huge problems on D and while Cousins plays his part in those problems he still is one of the 3 at least average defenders in this team.
If you want to blame Cousins, because you don't like his body language or something else - go ahead, I can't prove you wrong. I don't know Cousins. I never set a foot into the Kings lockerroom. All I knowis that basketball is a team game and that sports media guys like to focus on persons rather than take a closer look, what's really wrong with the team.
I focus solely on basketball. And for me it's clear as day, that we have huge problems on D and while Cousins plays his part in those problems he still is one of the 3 at least average defenders in this team.
If you want to blame Cousins, because you don't like his body language or something else - go ahead, I can't prove you wrong. I don't know Cousins. I never set a foot into the Kings lockerroom. All I knowis that basketball is a team game and that sports media guys like to focus on persons rather than take a closer look, what's really wrong with the team.
erroneous. absolutely erroneous. there is no single superstar who doesn't have considerable "needs" in the way of assistance from his teammates, his coaching staff, and his organization at large in order to be successful. lebron may have been the closest we've seen in the modern era, but even steph curry wouldn't be having an mvp season for the ages without a team of additional playmakers and shooters to more evenly distribute defensive attention, and he certainly wouldn't be as successful without the aid of the warriors' flexible defensive talent--up and down nearly their entire roster--and a coaching staff capable of maximizing all of that talent. here's a thought experiment for you. let's say the kings don't blow four straight drafts prior to selecting willie cauley-stein. let's say that they manage to have the eye for talent (and the good luck) that the warriors did in 2011 and 2012:
C Demarcus Cousins
PF Draymond Green
SF Omri Casspi
SG Klay Thompson
PG Rajon Rondo
are you telling me that demarcus couldn't carry such a team to the playoffs, especially with a vibrant coach like steve kerr or brad stevens? are you seriously telling me that demarcus cousins is the "deeper issue" for a franchise that has failed every single year at adding quality and complementary talent, the kind of talent that other teams aren't the least bit allergic to when they're on the clock come draft day? all it takes is a franchise that doesn't completely suck at each level of its operation to make a star. some players who would never be in the star or superstar conversation are elevated by strong franchises. does kawhi leonard become a superstar in sacramento? never. not in a million years. a player isn't a "winner" until his team wins, and a team like the kings doesn't win until the franchise stops getting in its own way...
blowing drafts (i cannot overstate just how damaging it was for the kings to utterly whiff each of their first round selections from 2011-2014), valuing gimmicks, making a habit of hiring coaches before gm's, firing coaches every year and then prolonging the tenure of one who doesn't fit because of the culture of instability that a carousel of coaching staffs and player personnel has created simply will not get it done. it just won't. doesn't matter how talented any one player is...
now, this current iteration of the kings does have some talent, and it is 100% underachieving, but it really doesn't help that they hired a head coach who was never going to mesh with the kind of talent that the eventual gm was going to bring in. it's a lack of synergy across the board that consistently kills this team. nobody is ever on the same page as anybody else for long...
C Demarcus Cousins
PF Draymond Green
SF Omri Casspi
SG Klay Thompson
PG Rajon Rondo
are you telling me that demarcus couldn't carry such a team to the playoffs, especially with a vibrant coach like steve kerr or brad stevens? are you seriously telling me that demarcus cousins is the "deeper issue" for a franchise that has failed every single year at adding quality and complementary talent, the kind of talent that other teams aren't the least bit allergic to when they're on the clock come draft day? all it takes is a franchise that doesn't completely suck at each level of its operation to make a star. some players who would never be in the star or superstar conversation are elevated by strong franchises. does kawhi leonard become a superstar in sacramento? never. not in a million years. a player isn't a "winner" until his team wins, and a team like the kings doesn't win until the franchise stops getting in its own way...
blowing drafts (i cannot overstate just how damaging it was for the kings to utterly whiff each of their first round selections from 2011-2014), valuing gimmicks, making a habit of hiring coaches before gm's, firing coaches every year and then prolonging the tenure of one who doesn't fit because of the culture of instability that a carousel of coaching staffs and player personnel has created simply will not get it done. it just won't. doesn't matter how talented any one player is...
now, this current iteration of the kings does have some talent, and it is 100% underachieving, but it really doesn't help that they hired a head coach who was never going to mesh with the kind of talent that the eventual gm was going to bring in. it's a lack of synergy across the board that consistently kills this team. nobody is ever on the same page as anybody else for long...
I think the list is actually rather short to be honest... He needs a legit #2. Someone who has the ability to take over when he's is being double and triple teamed. Almost all of his frustrations show when he's trying to do it all by himself in the paint. When was the last time someone not named DeMarcus won a game for the Sacramento Kings?
Rudy is not that guy. He's a great #3, just lacks the fire and grit it takes to take over a game.
Carmichael Dave was talking to someone this morning (his name is escaping me) who has been with the NETS and other NBA teams and he's been in basketball for a long time.
CD asked him what he thought of the kings situation. He said this is the most dysfunctional franchise he has ever seen. This is a guy who use to work for the NETS. Ive seen tweets from many national guys saying much of the same.
How are we going to get off this carousel? How is firing Karl or trading Cousins, Gay, Rondo, or anyone else gonna change the stink emanating from our FO? I just want to know if anyone else can see some light at the end of the tunnel.
CD asked him what he thought of the kings situation. He said this is the most dysfunctional franchise he has ever seen. This is a guy who use to work for the NETS. Ive seen tweets from many national guys saying much of the same.
How are we going to get off this carousel? How is firing Karl or trading Cousins, Gay, Rondo, or anyone else gonna change the stink emanating from our FO? I just want to know if anyone else can see some light at the end of the tunnel.
The 2008 hornets team had a starting lineup with Paul, 3x all star Peja, 2x allstar west and one time all star/defensive player of the year in Tyson chandler. If you think that's a good comparison to what cuz had going on, I don't really know what to say anymore.
That 2011 hornets team was still better and more balanced than anything cousins had his first 5 years. They had
Paul/Jack
Belinelli/Willie green/Marcus Thornton
Ariza/pondexter
David west/Landry/jason smith
Okafor/gray
That 2011 hornets team was still better and more balanced than anything cousins had his first 5 years. They had
Paul/Jack
Belinelli/Willie green/Marcus Thornton
Ariza/pondexter
David west/Landry/jason smith
Okafor/gray
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First off, I was referencing the 2011 team that had all the ownership and front office changes, but they still had money issues in the years before, however I brought up 2008 to illustrate just how much a player can do with poor coaching and limited $$$ and talent. That 2011 team that won 46 games didn't have Peja, didn't have TC, and instead had Marco, Ariza, and a washed up Okafor in the toughest division in the entire league.
In regards to 2008, I doubt you watched 5 games that season if that is your argument. Peja was relegated mostly to a spot shooter role due to his back issues. He was a red carpet on defense and his saving grace was his shot. All Star selections at that point in his career are meaningless, as he was a shadow of his Sacramento self. West was made by Paul, and by that I mean he wouldn't have gotten All-Star selections had he not been next to him on their pick-based offense. He thrived off the pick and pop, similar to how an aging Malone would get open 17 footers all day long from Stockton. How is David West's 19/7 per game in 2011 somehow on another level than Rudy's 18/7 this year? Also, he never made another AS team after leaving the hornets, despite having similar production in 2013 on a successful Pacer team. Chandler was not on the 2011 team, as I mentioned previously, but even so, at TC's peak as a hornet, WCS today is as good of a defensive force. [/quote]
Except I'm talking about this season, where the conference is at its weakest in decades and the current talent is on par or better than those teams. Yet, despite facing similar troubles such as dysfunction at the ownership, front office, and coaching levels, Paul was still able to make something happen. Hell, just look at what AD did last season with the Pelicans. He basically had Tyreke and injured Gordon, Anderson, and Holiday and was able to make the postseason in a much tougher conference.
I'm just tired of the excuses and people turning a blind eye. I don't care if you think he's a top 10 talent. I don't care if he actually is a top 10 all time player if he was under Pop. I don't care if he's the next Wilt Chamberlain. It isn't working here, we aren't winning here, and if this franchise cannot make use of a guy like Cousins, then maybe it is time for all parties to start over instead of watching him play out his career, retire a King, having won nothing.
In regards to 2008, I doubt you watched 5 games that season if that is your argument. Peja was relegated mostly to a spot shooter role due to his back issues. He was a red carpet on defense and his saving grace was his shot. All Star selections at that point in his career are meaningless, as he was a shadow of his Sacramento self. West was made by Paul, and by that I mean he wouldn't have gotten All-Star selections had he not been next to him on their pick-based offense. He thrived off the pick and pop, similar to how an aging Malone would get open 17 footers all day long from Stockton. How is David West's 19/7 per game in 2011 somehow on another level than Rudy's 18/7 this year? Also, he never made another AS team after leaving the hornets, despite having similar production in 2013 on a successful Pacer team. Chandler was not on the 2011 team, as I mentioned previously, but even so, at TC's peak as a hornet, WCS today is as good of a defensive force. [/quote]
Except I'm talking about this season, where the conference is at its weakest in decades and the current talent is on par or better than those teams. Yet, despite facing similar troubles such as dysfunction at the ownership, front office, and coaching levels, Paul was still able to make something happen. Hell, just look at what AD did last season with the Pelicans. He basically had Tyreke and injured Gordon, Anderson, and Holiday and was able to make the postseason in a much tougher conference.
I'm just tired of the excuses and people turning a blind eye. I don't care if you think he's a top 10 talent. I don't care if he actually is a top 10 all time player if he was under Pop. I don't care if he's the next Wilt Chamberlain. It isn't working here, we aren't winning here, and if this franchise cannot make use of a guy like Cousins, then maybe it is time for all parties to start over instead of watching him play out his career, retire a King, having won nothing.
Except Rudy has taken over games and won games without Cousins, so you invalidated your argument. A #3 is not a guy who can go off for 30 points any given night. What makes him questionable is his inconsistency and lack of killer instinct, but we aren't talking about a Ben Maclemore situation. Rudy typically pours in 15~20 points a night when healthy, and that would qualify as a #2 on many teams.
During cuz's first 4 years, he would have killed for a david west avg 19/7, a defensive partner as good as an experienced chandler who played far more than wcs and a broken back Peja hitting 3 3's a game at 44%. They also had a bench full of shooters/defenders.
In 2011, he still had west plus a "washed up" okafor averaging a double-double with 2 blocks a game. Again, they had a roster with defenders and shooters.
Do you really think the teams cuz had those first 3-4 years were better and more balanced that the hornets you chose as examples of his failure to win?
In 2011, he still had west plus a "washed up" okafor averaging a double-double with 2 blocks a game. Again, they had a roster with defenders and shooters.
Do you really think the teams cuz had those first 3-4 years were better and more balanced that the hornets you chose as examples of his failure to win?
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Again, I'm talking about this year with Cousins in his prime, a weak conference, and the most talented team he's had to work with (with pieces that have been successful elsewhere). The point was made by another poster that with a franchise that is so dysfunctional, it is impossible for him to succeed, and I countered with the point that other stars have done so with as much turmoil and uncertainty. Any supposed talent discrepancy you may have with the hornets in 2011 (which I disagree with) is immediately erased by the parity discrepancy in the conference in those years.
Like I said, I just don't think Cousins is capable of leading a team like Paul did. He can't do what Kobe did in 2006. He can't do what Lebron did his first stint in Cleveland. He can't do what Dwight did in Orlando. I'm not expecting a KG like performance ala 2004, but if his name is going to be put in that realm by his most ardent supporters, then he better be able to perform, and if not, then he isn't that good. IMO he's a bigger version of Melo: a talented player who doesn't have the intangibles to lead a team beyond his own personal successes.
Time and time again I've referenced this season because now most of the excuses are not as severe as they were previously. The team has more talent, DMC is in his prime, the West sucks, and there isn't a rookie HC at the helm. Yes there are still flaws, but if there was ever a time to prove Cousins is a different guy who can lead a team to success, we are watching it pass by.
Like I said, I just don't think Cousins is capable of leading a team like Paul did. He can't do what Kobe did in 2006. He can't do what Lebron did his first stint in Cleveland. He can't do what Dwight did in Orlando. I'm not expecting a KG like performance ala 2004, but if his name is going to be put in that realm by his most ardent supporters, then he better be able to perform, and if not, then he isn't that good. IMO he's a bigger version of Melo: a talented player who doesn't have the intangibles to lead a team beyond his own personal successes.
Time and time again I've referenced this season because now most of the excuses are not as severe as they were previously. The team has more talent, DMC is in his prime, the West sucks, and there isn't a rookie HC at the helm. Yes there are still flaws, but if there was ever a time to prove Cousins is a different guy who can lead a team to success, we are watching it pass by.
Wait a second, if you're going to call me disingenuous at least do it for something I said. I didn't say that nobody ever faced this level of dysfunction before (though I believe you could make a case). I just went through the very specific details of what derailed Cousins-led teams in the past (from my point of view) and why I think most of it comes down to factors which are outside of his control.
I also think it's a little unfair to compare two completely unrelated situations and say "Chris Paul could do it, why can't DeMarcus?". The Hornets team that won 46 games in 2011 had already made the playoffs in 2 of the previous 3 seasons and kept the same core intact. They'd already learned how to win by that point which is a big first step for any player to take. And Chris Paul succeeding is evidence only of how good he is, not evidence of how far Cousins is from being called a franchise player. Some people seem to think the defining quality of franchise players is their ability to lead inferior talent to the playoffs. I'm not even getting involved with that. I think it's awfully simplistic and reductive.
If you want to instead argue that Cousins is not yet an MVP caliber player and his numbers this season are inflated by George Karl's system -- I'll listen to that discussion. His advanced stats have all gone down this year under George Karl (TS%, TRB%, AST%, STL%, BLK%, PER, WS/48) so as flashy as 27 and 11 looks, it's been less effective than the 24 and 13 he put up last season. You can't argue he's not an automatic All-Star selection though and one of the 2 or 3 best big men in the league and while that may put him one notch below MVP caliber, it's more than enough to say he's not the main problem here. He certainly played like an MVP for most of January. There's more than enough evidence to suggest he's capable of being one of the top 5 players in the league. And if you have a 25 year old C who might be one of the top 5 players in the league in the future if he isn't already, you can't trade them. There are quite a few franchises who've never in their history had a top 5 player. We may never see another player this good in a King's uniform in my lifetime.
I also think it's a little unfair to compare two completely unrelated situations and say "Chris Paul could do it, why can't DeMarcus?". The Hornets team that won 46 games in 2011 had already made the playoffs in 2 of the previous 3 seasons and kept the same core intact. They'd already learned how to win by that point which is a big first step for any player to take. And Chris Paul succeeding is evidence only of how good he is, not evidence of how far Cousins is from being called a franchise player. Some people seem to think the defining quality of franchise players is their ability to lead inferior talent to the playoffs. I'm not even getting involved with that. I think it's awfully simplistic and reductive.
If you want to instead argue that Cousins is not yet an MVP caliber player and his numbers this season are inflated by George Karl's system -- I'll listen to that discussion. His advanced stats have all gone down this year under George Karl (TS%, TRB%, AST%, STL%, BLK%, PER, WS/48) so as flashy as 27 and 11 looks, it's been less effective than the 24 and 13 he put up last season. You can't argue he's not an automatic All-Star selection though and one of the 2 or 3 best big men in the league and while that may put him one notch below MVP caliber, it's more than enough to say he's not the main problem here. He certainly played like an MVP for most of January. There's more than enough evidence to suggest he's capable of being one of the top 5 players in the league. And if you have a 25 year old C who might be one of the top 5 players in the league in the future if he isn't already, you can't trade them. There are quite a few franchises who've never in their history had a top 5 player. We may never see another player this good in a King's uniform in my lifetime.
Let me ask you a serious question:
If Cousins spends the remainder of his career in this franchise, and they are unable to build a winning team around him, would you be happy with him with every franchise record and a retired jersey but nothing to show for it like Richmond, or would you rather cut ties, let him try again elsewhere and start a rebuild now?
If Cousins spends the remainder of his career in this franchise, and they are unable to build a winning team around him, would you be happy with him with every franchise record and a retired jersey but nothing to show for it like Richmond, or would you rather cut ties, let him try again elsewhere and start a rebuild now?
cousins has years left in his career, you have to back us to get it right in that time.
If he was getting towards the end of his career you make a call and try do a kobe for a young lebron swap re the lakers cavs. But hes not, hes entering his prime, you back yourself to get it right.
the way the current team is constructed we are a few pieces away from an as complete roster as you can get. We need a strong coach and a few moves within the roster and we are really set, half the issue is our rotations and schemes - small ball, cousins on the outside too much, collison with rondo, belli coming of screens and not being used as a spot up shooter that he is etc
If he was getting towards the end of his career you make a call and try do a kobe for a young lebron swap re the lakers cavs. But hes not, hes entering his prime, you back yourself to get it right.
the way the current team is constructed we are a few pieces away from an as complete roster as you can get. We need a strong coach and a few moves within the roster and we are really set, half the issue is our rotations and schemes - small ball, cousins on the outside too much, collison with rondo, belli coming of screens and not being used as a spot up shooter that he is etc
My point is this: we may never see the franchise straighten out its internal issues during Cousins' prime years. That is a very real and possible outcome, and that's with any player. You could have a young Kareem there, and might struggle under a constant shift of GMs and coaches. It is even more difficult with somebody as volatile as Cousins. Ultimately, us fans may be in for a reality that doesn't include Demarcus and Kings being successful together. It might not work out, and realistically, while people want to give him more time, he's got one more full season before the team has to make a decision. Does anybody really think they can iron out everything in a year and a half? Considering the current circumstances, I do not.