Caron Butler Promised A Trade

ESP47 said:
Kevin Martin is terrible this year and he's old. No way you give up McLemore for him.
Click to expand...

Kevin has proved he can play in the league. Ben hasn't.

I don't really hate Ben but if I had a dime for every "Ben is a bust" post on kf.com I could buy more than one cup of coffee. I'd kind of like to give the guy a change of scenery and it seems to me (I can't prove it with video, just my accumulated hunch over the years) that he isn't a solid cultural/dynamic fit with this team - seems he is frozen out from time to time.

I'm ok if we keep the status quo throughout the trade season too.
 
eh, i'd rather do Marco for Kevin Martin. Those 2 kind of negate each other, both are purely shooters who provide nothing defensively. I don't think we need 2 of those. At least Ben can play defense, even if he can't dribble to save his life.
 
dude12 said:
If Moreland hadn't have gotten hurt, I'd could have seen a Butler/Moreland for Plumlee deal but Plumlee is now playing because of injuries and Moreland is hurt. I know nothing of Ingles other than what was posted here on him. If he's a defensive type wing, really that's probably the return your gonna get or a 2nd round pick. Maybe a 3 team deal involving Milwaukee and someone else.

I think Karl is really liking the Casspi/Gay/Cousins starting frontline.....would be nice to have another full sized SF type as a backup.
Click to expand...

I would be really excited if we somehow got Inglis. He would be our best wing defender immediately. He has no problems guarding quicker wings and at 6'8 with a huge wingspan and really being strong he does a good job on todays 4's as well. Actually, in the first game against the Knicks he guarded Porzinigs effectivly.
But even more impressive is his off-ball defense. He just knows how to rotate, when to switch and when to stay home etc despite being only 20 years old.
On offense, he is a few years away from being able to play on a high level, but he wouldn't get a lot of shots on our team anyway.
Make it happen, Vlade! :)
 
I'm surprised people are so low on Kevin Martin. For what he is, an efficient scorer with no defense, he's very good at it. I almost feel I'd rather have KMart than Marco.
 
Dreadnought said:
I'm surprised people are so low on Kevin Martin. For what he is, an efficient scorer with no defense, he's very good at it. I almost feel I'd rather have KMart than Marco.
Click to expand...

Despite Marco's disappointing play, can't do that. 1) he plays spirited ball while Kevin... but 2) he's also one of our other been to the mountain top and won a title guys. We had 3. Now we're losing Caron, so it will be 2. Don't want it to get down to 1 as we're trying to push through. Want as many people simply not used to losing and not afraid of the moment as we can get.
 
Lot's of action on the Bucks forum on Real GM. They're fans are not happy, everyone seems to be hoping it's a straight swap for Chris Copeland. I actually was hoping we'd go after Copeland in the offseason as a stretch 4, but it sounds like Bucks fans are not happy with him this season. However, Caron isn't playing as it is, so shipping him out for any usable asset seems like it couldn't hurt. Still puzzling as to what Caron was expecting when he got here, but whatever.
 
There are a few small rumors about the Kings being interested in K-Mart.
DO NOT WANT.

I honestly would not understand it, if we traded for Martin and gave him 8-10 shots a game. If we want more shooting, we should just give Ben more looks.
Martin is washed up and injury-prone. He plays worse D than Belli.

If anything, I think we need a backup PF/C in case our guys go down again. Acy brings a lot of energy, but I think we'd need another big just in case.

Caron Butler for Chris Kaman?
 
Merdiesel said:
What are the odds T-Wolves just down right waive him?
Click to expand...
To be honest, I don't think the Wolves do that. Even though he's been terrible this year, he's a guy who they're letting LaVine learn behind. They're still featuring him in their offense waiting for LaVine to flourish. I think they're starting to realize that if they don't get rid of K-Mart now..they'll be stuck with him for the next year too. I think they're ready to move on, and they're feeling more confident in LaVine.

I think they'd be willing to give up Martin for any takers. His contract is ugly though. 2 years left at $7million.
I don't think they wave him. I could see a buy-out involved though.
 
206Fan said:
To be honest, I don't think the Wolves do that. Even though he's been terrible this year, he's a guy who they're letting LaVine learn behind. They're still featuring him in their offense waiting for LaVine to flourish. I think they're starting to realize that if they don't get rid of K-Mart now..they'll be stuck with him for the next year too. I think they're ready to move on, and they're feeling more confident in LaVine.

I think they'd be willing to give up Martin for any takers. His contract is ugly though. 2 years left at $7million.
I don't think they wave him. I could see a buy-out involved though.
Click to expand...

There's basically no way we can take on his contract without sending back $4.66M+ in salary. So we'd have to send Ben or Marco or Kosta or Omri - we can't send Caron and change and get him. That in and of itself makes a trade for Martin seem very unlikely to me.
 
There is one Kevin Martin trade with Butler that I think Karl would salivate and probably ask.
KMart/Dre for Collison/Butler/Anderson

Worked on the trade checker.

And 1 thing Karl has been very vocal is how Andre Miller really understands his system.
I think Minnesota would not even blink once we make a call because their PG spot could really get a boost with Collison.
And Butler would be a damn good vet for Wiggins to learn from.

The risk would be on our end because we could end up with no PG next season or Karl fielding 2 PG with no outside shots.
But we could boost the fan base with old KMart back here and Karl would probably give KMart good minutes that Butler or Anderson can combine.
KMart would most likely eat a big chunk of Collison's minutes in rotation instead of Dre taking it all.

Personally, I like this partly because of a KMart re-union and a chance that Karl would limit his 2 PG rotation as Miller is clearly and iffy shooter and put KMart instead.
 
206Fan said:
There are a few small rumors about the Kings being interested in K-Mart.
DO NOT WANT.

I honestly would not understand it, if we traded for Martin and gave him 8-10 shots a game. If we want more shooting, we should just give Ben more looks.
Martin is washed up and injury-prone. He plays worse D than Belli.

If anything, I think we need a backup PF/C in case our guys go down again. Acy brings a lot of energy, but I think we'd need another big just in case.

Caron Butler for Chris Kaman?
Click to expand...

The thing about Kevin is...possibly.

--He's a pro and isn't going to have those moments of not knowing what to do. He knows when to spot up, when to cut, when to leak out, he knows his game and he knows the league. He's dangerous in a way that Ben isn't and has scored 30+pts dozens of times in his career (actually 83 times according to a bball-ref search). Teams absolutely have to respect that. Doubling off Kevin Martin to go after Cuz is highly dubious. And if Martin gets hot he's fully capable of dropping 15 in a quarter.

--You know where he could be really helpful? If Boogie ever missed time again. Then rather than having Rudy having to try to step up and carry things alone, we would suddenly have TWO longtime 20pt type scorers who might step up and fill in, offensively at least.

-- But of course he has always lacked passion and grit. While Ben isn't always hot stuff on defense, Kevin has rarely seemed to try. And there's always been something selfish about his game. I can't think of anybody except maybe a fellow perimeter bomber in Bibby early in his career where it felt like Kevin had synergy with anybody and was making other guys better. I'd worry if he entered the lockerroom would he be a guy the other guy's respected as a competitor? You want guys who are going to really lay it all out in that lockerroom with you. Kevin has always seems so passive, like an energy sump.

-- Ironically now that Karl has ****ed up Boogie's game, Kevin might recognize some of it from his KLove days.

-- Kevin is of course injury prone and that would always be there as a concern. The washed up though is basically just this year. He's never had a huge impact beyond the scoring so you forget he's out there but he averaged 20.0ppg on a decent .549 TS% just last year, and it was 19.1ppg on a .553 TS% the year before that. That's far removed from those hyper-efficient early career days, but that's still a Top 20 scorer in the league. For comparison Rudy has been at 20.0 on .540 two years ago and 21.1 on .556 just last year.

-- Kevin's in an awkward position on a team full of kids who they want to get playing time. He's not a leader of men, so I have some doubts about how great a mentor he can be. He may be uncomfortable in the system or situation, and we saw firsthand how fugly that can look when he lost his position as The Man to Tyreke.

-- If you get him though, you absolutely buy back WCS in the starting lineup. If you get him you've got your three starting weapons, you've got Rondo and Cousins/Gay/KMart as your equivalent of Garnett/Pierce/Allen. Then WCS in the Perkins role. There are a lot worse looks, unless Kevin really has abruptly hit the age wall. And then Koufos/Casspi/Belineli/Collison = looks like a strong playoff bench.
 
Capt. Factorial said:
There's basically no way we can take on his contract without sending back $4.66M+ in salary. So we'd have to send Ben or Marco or Kosta or Omri - we can't send Caron and change and get him. That in and of itself makes a trade for Martin seem very unlikely to me.
Click to expand...
trade checker realgm says we can send Ben + Caron + Dukan to barely squeeze it out.

10xzq50.jpg


The tiny Dukan contract being the key add -- doesn't work with just Ben and Caron.

If that's wrong Dukan would have toe be Anderson or Curry, which leaves us bodies short.
 
KingsCitizen said:
There is one Kevin Martin trade with Butler that I think Karl would salivate and probably ask.
KMart/Dre for Collison/Butler/Anderson

Worked on the trade checker.

And 1 thing Karl has been very vocal is how Andre Miller really understands his system.
I think Minnesota would not even blink once we make a call because their PG spot could really get a boost with Collison.
And Butler would be a damn good vet for Wiggins to learn from.

The risk would be on our end because we could end up with no PG next season or Karl fielding 2 PG with no outside shots.
But we could boost the fan base with old KMart back here and Karl would probably give KMart good minutes that Butler or Anderson can combine.
KMart would most likely eat a big chunk of Collison's minutes in rotation instead of Dre taking it all.

Personally, I like this partly because of a KMart re-union and a chance that Karl would limit his 2 PG rotation as Miller is clearly and iffy shooter and put KMart instead.
Click to expand...

Puke
 
Bricklayer said:
trade checker realgm says we can send Ben + Caron + Dukan to barely squeeze it out.

10xzq50.jpg


The tiny Dukan contract being the key add -- doesn't work with just Ben and Caron.

If that's wrong Dukan would have toe be Anderson or Curry, which leaves us bodies short.
Click to expand...

Puke
 
Bricklayer said:
trade checker realgm says we can send Ben + Caron + Dukan to barely squeeze it out.
Click to expand...

If salaries on Basketball Insiders are right, Ben+Caron misses the cut by literally $880. Wow.

However, Minnesota would have to cut somebody (Prince? Miller?) to do that. If we add Dukan they'd have to cut two players. Maybe more likely would be Ben/Caron/Anderson for Martin/Miller and the Wolves cut Prince. That would get it done under the CBA.

That said, at this point in the season I'm not really down with trading Ben for Martin. Martin's best days are clearly behind him while Ben's ought to be ahead, and I feel like I'm seeing improvement there. If I really thought we could compete (I mean legitimately, not just squeak into the eighth seed) then I'd have to take another look. But right now we're so inconsistent that I'd hate to mortgage the future for this year. This year doesn't yet look worthy of that to me.
 
Bricklayer said:
The thing about Kevin is...possibly.

--He's a pro and isn't going to have those moments of not knowing what to do. He knows when to spot up, when to cut, when to leak out, he knows his game and he knows the league. He's dangerous in a way that Ben isn't and has scored 30+pts dozens of times in his career (actually 83 times according to a bball-ref search). Teams absolutely have to respect that. Doubling off Kevin Martin to go after Cuz is highly dubious. And if Martin gets hot he's fully capable of dropping 15 in a quarter.

--You know where he could be really helpful? If Boogie ever missed time again. Then rather than having Rudy having to try to step up and carry things alone, we would suddenly have TWO longtime 20pt type scorers who might step up and fill in, offensively at least.

-- But of course he has always lacked passion and grit. While Ben isn't always hot stuff on defense, Kevin has rarely seemed to try. And there's always been something selfish about his game. I can't think of anybody except maybe a fellow perimeter bomber in Bibby early in his career where it felt like Kevin had synergy with anybody and was making other guys better. I'd worry if he entered the lockerroom would he be a guy the other guy's respected as a competitor? You want guys who are going to really lay it all out in that lockerroom with you. Kevin has always seems so passive, like an energy sump.

-- Ironically now that Karl has ****ed up Boogie's game, Kevin might recognize some of it from his KLove days.

-- Kevin is of course injury prone and that would always be there as a concern. The washed up though is basically just this year. He's never had a huge impact beyond the scoring so you forget he's out there but he averaged 20.0ppg on a decent .549 TS% just last year, and it was 19.1ppg on a .553 TS% the year before that. That's far removed from those hyper-efficient early career days, but that's still a Top 20 scorer in the league. For comparison Rudy has been at 20.0 on .540 two years ago and 21.1 on .556 just last year.

-- Kevin's in an awkward position on a team full of kids who they want to get playing time. He's not a leader of men, so I have some doubts about how great a mentor he can be. He may be uncomfortable in the system or situation, and we saw firsthand how fugly that can look when he lost his position as The Man to Tyreke.

-- If you get him though, you absolutely buy back WCS in the starting lineup. If you get him you've got your three starting weapons, you've got Rondo and Cousins/Gay/KMart as your equivalent of Garnett/Pierce/Allen. Then WCS in the Perkins role. There are a lot worse looks, unless Kevin really has abruptly hit the age wall. And then Koufos/Casspi/Belineli/Collison = looks like a strong playoff bench.
Click to expand...
I see Martin a lot like Belinelli in some ways you mentioned.

He knows how to work on the offensive side very well. He knows where to pick his spots in the offense and he has an amazingly high IQ. I acknowledge that Martin is years ahead of Ben if added to this offense, but we have to look at his overall play this year.

26 mins 12.7pts 2.4rebs 1.3asts
  • .367 FG
    • 10.7 A/g
  • .348 3PT
    • 3 A/g
Let's compare that with Ben:

22 mins 8pts 2.2rebs 1.2asts
  • .453 FG
    • 6.4 A/g
  • .414 3PT
    • 2.3 A/g
Ben has had a much better year, but Martin is still the better offensive player. However, I feel like if you really want more production out of your starting SG spot, you need to get him the ball a lot more often. Take a look at the difference in shot attempts a game between Ben and Martin. I think the real problem with Ben is that his teammates don't have faith in him. He's been shooting the ball well in limited samples. He's also showing more confidence in himself(much more aggressive and less hesitant). However, it seems like once he misses a shot, his teammates completely block him out from their offensive flow. We've never seen this happen with Belli. Belli misses a wide open 3? They'll get him another shot in the next possession. Ben misses a wide open 3? He's not getting another look for the entire game.


I don't think Martin is the answers to Ben's flaws at SG. I think that's what a lot of us want to find. The team just need more PT and practice together. We started the season off extremely sloppy, and we've started to tighten it up. Last 10 games, 5-5 which is pretty remarkable. I'm hoping things can continue to click.

I think Kevin could be a great addition to our offense, but my biggest concern is his health and his defense. Can he have a healthy season? I think he can, but I'm not completely sure since he doesn't have a good track record. I agree with you on his defense. Being 32 has a toll on him defensively. I think it's more about him preserving his energy on the offensive side, but that'll kill you when you have to guard guys like Klay, Harden, Knight, Reddick, and McCollum. He got away with this because he played alongside very good defenders in KAT, Wiggins, and Rubio. He's not going to get away with it playing with Rondo.. His defense is worse than Belli's. Belli's problem is that he gets caught up in screens a lot, and sometimes he loses his man, or he's late on a switch.

So, would you trade offense for defense?
As one of the best scoring offenses in the NBA, I don't think that I would.
We're 5th in 3pt%, tied for 16th in 3pt attempts, 3rd in points, and tied for 5th in FG%.

I think this team has heavily depended on team ball. This is what we've been waiting for a very long time. Multiple guys contributing. If Cousins is out, chances are, we're going to lose the game either way. It's really hard to recover without your best player. We saw Rondo out for 1 game, and while the Rockets haven't been lighting it up, we saw the rest of the guys stepping up. Without Cousins, we only won 1 game, but we managed to keep the Heat, Rockets, and GSW game extremely close and down to the wire.

In short, I don't think we should trade for Kevin because he brings absolutely 0 to our poor defense. I think we should hold onto McLemore as the starting SG until a better one comes up. Kevin is not that much of an upgrade on offense if you really consider his numbers.. It's also the same reason why fans have stopped asking for Belli to start..
 
Scoring is not our issue. We can put up 110 or 12o points at any given time. Even without Boogie. The issue is consistent defense. Defense goes away when Cousins is missing games. I'm not sure what the allure of Kmart would be. So we could put up 125 pts on any given night?
 
206Fan said:
I see Martin a lot like Belinelli in some ways you mentioned.

He knows how to work on the offensive side very well. He knows where to pick his spots in the offense and he has an amazingly high IQ. I acknowledge that Martin is years ahead of Ben if added to this offense, but we have to look at his overall play this year.

26 mins 12.7pts 2.4rebs 1.3asts
  • .367 FG
    • 10.7 A/g
  • .348 3PT
    • 3 A/g
Let's compare that with Ben:

22 mins 8pts 2.2rebs 1.2asts
  • .453 FG
    • 6.4 A/g
  • .414 3PT
    • 2.3 A/g
Ben has had a much better year, but Martin is still the better offensive player. However, I feel like if you really want more production out of your starting SG spot, you need to get him the ball a lot more often. Take a look at the difference in shot attempts a game between Ben and Martin. I think the real problem with Ben is that his teammates don't have faith in him. He's been shooting the ball well in limited samples. He's also showing more confidence in himself(much more aggressive and less hesitant). However, it seems like once he misses a shot, his teammates completely block him out from their offensive flow. We've never seen this happen with Belli. Belli misses a wide open 3? They'll get him another shot in the next possession. Ben misses a wide open 3? He's not getting another look for the entire game.


I don't think Martin is the answers to Ben's flaws at SG. I think that's what a lot of us want to find. The team just need more PT and practice together. We started the season off extremely sloppy, and we've started to tighten it up. Last 10 games, 5-5 which is pretty remarkable. I'm hoping things can continue to click.

I think Kevin could be a great addition to our offense, but my biggest concern is his health and his defense. Can he have a healthy season? I think he can, but I'm not completely sure since he doesn't have a good track record. I agree with you on his defense. Being 32 has a toll on him defensively. I think it's more about him preserving his energy on the offensive side, but that'll kill you when you have to guard guys like Klay, Harden, Knight, Reddick, and McCollum. He got away with this because he played alongside very good defenders in KAT, Wiggins, and Rubio. He's not going to get away with it playing with Rondo.. His defense is worse than Belli's. Belli's problem is that he gets caught up in screens a lot, and sometimes he loses his man, or he's late on a switch.

So, would you trade offense for defense?
As one of the best scoring offenses in the NBA, I don't think that I would.
We're 5th in 3pt%, tied for 16th in 3pt attempts, 3rd in points, and tied for 5th in FG%.

I think this team has heavily depended on team ball. This is what we've been waiting for a very long time. Multiple guys contributing. If Cousins is out, chances are, we're going to lose the game either way. It's really hard to recover without your best player. We saw Rondo out for 1 game, and while the Rockets haven't been lighting it up, we saw the rest of the guys stepping up. Without Cousins, we only won 1 game, but we managed to keep the Heat, Rockets, and GSW game extremely close and down to the wire.

In short, I don't think we should trade for Kevin because he brings absolutely 0 to our poor defense. I think we should hold onto McLemore as the starting SG until a better one comes up. Kevin is not that much of an upgrade on offense if you really consider his numbers.. It's also the same reason why fans have stopped asking for Belli to start..
Click to expand...

You're being very diplomatic. Fact is, we keep wanting players to be better than Ben, but they're not. Even if these other players "look" the part, the numbers don't pan out. Ben is putting up the exact stats that we all said we wanted from him. To be that 3&D guy. Now that he is doing that, we've moved the bar and we're saying he should pretty much be a 20ppg scorer.

As far as Kmart getting old, in this game it happens over night. One season you have it, the next season you don't and it never comes back.
 
Capt. Factorial said:
If salaries on Basketball Insiders are right, Ben+Caron misses the cut by literally $880. Wow.

However, Minnesota would have to cut somebody (Prince? Miller?) to do that. If we add Dukan they'd have to cut two players. Maybe more likely would be Ben/Caron/Anderson for Martin/Miller and the Wolves cut Prince. That would get it done under the CBA.

That said, at this point in the season I'm not really down with trading Ben for Martin. Martin's best days are clearly behind him while Ben's ought to be ahead, and I feel like I'm seeing improvement there. If I really thought we could compete (I mean legitimately, not just squeak into the eighth seed) then I'd have to take another look. But right now we're so inconsistent that I'd hate to mortgage the future for this year. This year doesn't yet look worthy of that to me.
Click to expand...
Couple of years actually -- affordable contract for a 20ppg scorer, if Kevin still could be in the right role (not for us). Bargain deal in the new market. Aminu money. Kevin's only 32. No reason he has to be done, or even close to done as a support player.

And the thing is, this season is the most wide open season in the West in recent, or not so recent, memory. Positions #1 to #4 are probably set, but everything from #5 on down is in play. And you know what? I would LOVE to scramble all the way up into #5 and meet the Clippers in the first round. LOVE IT. The Warriors are death, the Spurs are death, OKC should be death, although there I feel braver. The Clippers though? Softies with lockerrroom issues? Bring them on and who knows what happens.
 
KingsCitizen said:
There is one Kevin Martin trade with Butler that I think Karl would salivate and probably ask.
KMart/Dre for Collison/Butler/Anderson

Worked on the trade checker.

And 1 thing Karl has been very vocal is how Andre Miller really understands his system.
I think Minnesota would not even blink once we make a call because their PG spot could really get a boost with Collison.
And Butler would be a damn good vet for Wiggins to learn from.

The risk would be on our end because we could end up with no PG next season or Karl fielding 2 PG with no outside shots.
But we could boost the fan base with old KMart back here and Karl would probably give KMart good minutes that Butler or Anderson can combine.
KMart would most likely eat a big chunk of Collison's minutes in rotation instead of Dre taking it all.

Personally, I like this partly because of a KMart re-union and a chance that Karl would limit his 2 PG rotation as Miller is clearly and iffy shooter and put KMart instead.
Click to expand...
LOL Karl isn't that dumb.
 
Livinthedream said:
You're being very diplomatic. Fact is, we keep wanting players to be better than Ben, but they're not. Even if these other players "look" the part, the numbers don't pan out. Ben is putting up the exact stats that we all said we wanted from him. To be that 3&D guy. Now that he is doing that, we've moved the bar and we're saying he should pretty much be a 20ppg scorer.

As far as Kmart getting old, in this game it happens over night. One season you have it, the next season you don't and it never comes back.
Click to expand...


Ben was touted as potentially the best pure shooter in the draft paired with crazy athleticism. When you burn the 7th pick on a guy like that, you're probably expecting a little more than 8 points a game in his third year.
 
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