Ben working with Kings to find a new place to play?

[Livinthedream]

When the Kings 1 game away from the NBA finals who was on the starting five: Webber (FA), Vlade (FA), Christie(FA), Bibby(FA) and PeJa(Draft).

Vlade was the only FA.

 

[Jerichoholic]

On second thought, I wonder about that chart's measure of defense. All defensive stats seem to be problematic, but isn't defensive real-plus-minus better than DBPM?

This is what basketball reference has to say about DBPM:



My guess is that this chart overrates Rondo given his steals.

Every statistic has its limitations, but just by watching the games I would say this does tell a realistic story. All players except for Rondo on the below average defense side with Rondo barely above and it is probably because of his steals. Also shows that even though we are an improved 3-point shooting team we still are average at best. Casspi is the only exceptional shooter on our team. The bottom quadrant is the worst spot to be in, but it doesn't surprise me at all that Belinelli and Gay are there, probably our worst two defenders. In a normal year I would also expect McLemore and Rondo to be there as well, at least Rondo has a special skill as a floor general. Bottom line, the Kings are not good and with these players I still don't expect much improvement even with new coaching.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

When the Kings 1 game away from the NBA finals who was on the starting five: Webber (FA), Vlade (FA), Christie(FA), Bibby(FA) and PeJa(Draft).

Yeah, let's fix that:
Webber - Trade (Mitch Richmond 1998, resigned 2001)
Vlade - FA
Christie - Trade (Corliss Williamson, 2000)
Bibby - Trade (Jason Williams/Nick Anderson, 2001)
Peja - Draft

 

[funkykingston]

When the Kings 1 game away from the NBA finals who was on the starting five: Webber (FA), Vlade (FA), Christie(FA), Bibby(FA) and PeJa(Draft).

Webber, Christie and Bibby were all acquired via trade even if they resigned with the Kings as free agents.

Vlade was the only player from that lineup who was signed as a FA from another team.

Geoff Petrie built that team with smart draft picks (Corliss, Peja, TAW, JWill, Hedo, Wallace etc) one major trade (Richmond and Thorpe for CWebb) lots of smaller trades, one major FA signing (Vlade) and a lot of minor signings (maybe two major depending on how you view BJax) that primarily built the bench.

If anything, the best FA signing Petrie might have ever made was Rick Adelman.

 

[Livinthedream]

In a normal year I would also expect McLemore and Rondo to be there as well.

What does this mean?

 

[Jerichoholic]

What does this mean?

Just that McLemore has always been a poor defender and an average at best 3-point shooter, this is one of his better years actually. Normally he would be in the bottom quadrant. For Rondo he should already be there defensively, I do think his steals throw off the number somewhat and I think this is his best 3-point shooting year so normally he would be there as well.

 

[Bricklayer]

When the Kings 1 game away from the NBA finals who was on the starting five: Webber (FA), Vlade (FA), Christie(FA), Bibby(FA) and PeJa(Draft).

? Maybe I was misreading that but:

Webber (trade)
Vlade (FA)
Peja (draft)
Christie (trade)
Bibby (trade)

BJax (FA)
Hedo (draft)
Pollard (FA)

Not sure if that makes any difference to the overall point of course.

 

[NewArena]

Kind of torn on this one cause yeah we have jerked Ben but at the same time where else would he have got this much playing time over the first 3 years of his career and it's as much on him he's not a better player with all the opportunity with the instability.

And he's just not very good

Not understanding the surprise or disappointment here. He's had plenty of chances, even under a great coach like Malone. Missing wide open shots and flat out disappearing and hiding, has nothing to do with being "jerked around"

 

[NewArena]

I mean the Kings are short on youth as it is so I suppose getting another veteran will get them that beloved 8th seed for no purpose at all, that's if they even mount up enough wins, which I don't see happening. I don't care if they trade Ben, that ship has sailed, however...you want to throw all your marbles towards getting a 8th seed and in the process losing a top ten pick? color me unimpressed.

Playoff experience will ALWAYS serve a purpose. What's the purpose of missing the playoffs yet again and acquiring draft pick after draft pick? How's that been working for us? Please.

 

[hrdboild]

Just that McLemore has always been a poor defender and an average at best 3-point shooter, this is one of his better years actually. Normally he would be in the bottom quadrant. For Rondo he should already be there defensively, I do think his steals throw off the number somewhat and I think this is his best 3-point shooting year so normally he would be there as well.

Using words like "always" to refer to a 22 year old who's played 2 1/2 seasons in the NBA seems a tad presumptive doesn't it? If his third season is "one of his better years actually" as you say, isn't that usually taken as evidence of progress and future potential rather than a problematic outlier which needs to be dismissed? It's also awfully convenient for your argument that the data is "thrown off" by Rondo's steals rather than intentionally crediting them as the extra possessions that they are.

It seems to me that the players who are closest to meeting the mark for competence on both sides of the ball are the players that people are most eager to see moved. Belinelli has basically got an entire textbooks worth of offensive plays with his name on them compared to what George Karl has done to include Ben McLemore in his offense and he's rewarding that trust with 38% shooting from the floor and the worst three point shooting on the team. The defensive system is a joke, but what do you say about a player who can't even manage to execute a terrible defensive plan correctly?

But then the joke's on me I suppose for ever expecting fans to discuss players dispassionately. If the numbers don't fit there's always a way to fudge them until they say what you want them to say. And when you can't fudge them anymore, you just dismiss them as "useless numbers" which don't tell the whole story.

 

[hrdboild]

And he's just not very good

Not understanding the surprise or disappointment here. He's had plenty of chances, even under a great coach like Malone. Missing wide open shots and flat out disappearing and hiding, has nothing to do with being "jerked around"

You know who else misses wide-open shots? Every other player in the league. This is why we have FG% and 3pt% to remind us that certain players, over time, make more of their shots than their contemporaries and thus are considered to be above-average shooters.

 

[Livinthedream]

But then the joke's on me I suppose for ever expecting fans to discuss players dispassionately. If the numbers don't fit there's always a way to fudge them until they say what you want them to say. And when you can't fudge them anymore, you just dismiss them as "useless numbers" which don't tell the whole story.

Don't forget the 'eye test.' That and 'aggresiveness' trump all results.

 

[Livinthedream]

What do you do with Ben after you sat him down for an apparent 'wrist injury' after a stretch of good games(coincedence?), but you don't get him traded? Does he rot at the end of the bench like Butler?

By sitting him and then promising a trade, the Kings have lost any leverage with other teams. We're not very good at basketball operations right now.

 

[VF21]

What do you do with Ben after you sat him down for an apparent 'wrist injury' after a stretch of good games(coincedence?), but you don't get him traded? Does he rot at the end of the bench like Butler?

By sitting him and then promising a trade, the Kings have lost any leverage with other teams. We're not very good at basketball operations right now.

So you seriously think the wrist injury is a canard, a ruse, a flat-out lie?

smh

 

[sdballer]

Sam Amick is reporting that Kings front office is reluctant to trade Ben but surprise, Karl isn't. Yes, let's make moves to appease our lame duck coach

 

[ParniValjak]

Sam Amick is reporting that Kings front office is reluctant to trade Ben but surprise, Karl isn't. Yes, let's make moves to appease our lame duck coach

Vlade is smart enough not to do this. It doesn't mean that we won't trade Ben but it means that we are not going to trade him just to trade him for one of Karl's pets.

Bruski has long hinted that Karl has been pushing this and has been bringing up Afflalo. Problem is that Afflalo has stopped playing defense a long time ago.

 

[Livinthedream]

So you seriously think the wrist injury is a canard, a ruse, a flat-out lie?

smh

I don't know. Sometimes these kinds of games are played.

 

[VF21]

Sam Amick is reporting that Kings front office is reluctant to trade Ben but surprise, Karl isn't. Yes, let's make moves to appease our lame duck coach

So let's see...who would benefit from that being leaked? Hrm...

Sorry, but I vote that Karl's people put it out there because - surprise! - George Karl really wants to be fired and will keep putting things out to try and force the Kings' hand.

 

[VF21]

I don't know. Sometimes these kinds of games are played.

If it was flu-like symptoms or gastroenteritis, maybe. I think something like a wrist injury on the shooting hand of a shooter might end up being a deterrent to potential trade partners.

 

[Livinthedream]

If it was flu-like symptoms or gastroenteritis, maybe. I think something like a wrist injury on the shooting hand of a shooter might end up being a deterrent to potential trade partners.

Point taken.

 

[Bricklayer]

Using words like "always" to refer to a 22 year old who's played 2 1/2 seasons in the NBA seems a tad presumptive doesn't it? If his third season is "one of his better years actually" as you say, isn't that usually taken as evidence of progress and future potential rather than a problematic outlier which needs to be dismissed? It's also awfully convenient for your argument that the data is "thrown off" by Rondo's steals rather than intentionally crediting them as the extra possessions that they are.

It seems to me that the players who are closest to meeting the mark for competence on both sides of the ball are the players that people are most eager to see moved. Belinelli has basically got an entire textbooks worth of offensive plays with his name on them compared to what George Karl has done to include Ben McLemore in his offense and he's rewarding that trust with 38% shooting from the floor and the worst three point shooting on the team. The defensive system is a joke, but what do you say about a player who can't even manage to execute a terrible defensive plan correctly?

But then the joke's on me I suppose for ever expecting fans to discuss players dispassionately. If the numbers don't fit there's always a way to fudge them until they say what you want them to say. And when you can't fudge them anymore, you just dismiss them as "useless numbers" which don't tell the whole story.

Ben's production has been flat. His advances incremental.

Per 36 minutes, per 100 minutes, advanced stats...they aren't moving much.

 

[IfAt1st]

So let's see...who would benefit from that being leaked? Hrm...

Sorry, but I vote that Karl's people put it out there because - surprise! - George Karl really wants to be fired and will keep putting things out to try and force the Kings' hand.

Are you being serious, in suggesting that Karl is trying to get fired?

 

[Bricklayer]

Are you being serious, in suggesting that Karl is trying to get fired?

A conspiracy theory worthy of you IfAt1st.

I would feel threatened if I were you.

 

[hrdboild]

Ben's production has been flat. His advances incremental.

Per 36 minutes, per 100 minutes, advanced stats...they aren't moving much.

Some of his production has been flat. Rebounds and blocks haven't changed much.
Some of his production is definitely moving in the right direction though:

FG%.......(Year 1) .376.....(Year 2) .437......(Year 3) .451
3pt%.......(Year 1) .320.....(Year 2) .358.....(Year 3) .372
StlsP36...(Year 1) 0.7.......(Year 2) 1.0........(Year 3) 1.4
AstP36....(Year 1) 1.3.......(Year 2) 1.9........(Year 3) 2.1

Are these advances "incremental". I suppose so. Is that a bad thing? From 37% to 45% shows significant growth, even if it came in increments. A 32% three point shooter is a non-shooter. A 37% three point shooter would rank 15th among qualified SGs right now, which is well above average. These are the core skills for a shooting guard, and he's getting progressively better at all of them.

To look at all of this and say he's garbage or that we should move him for a 31 year old journeyman or draft picks or some such is not just hyperbole, it's dangerous hyperbole because it's the kind that destroys teams in the long run who buy into it. We gave up on Nik Stauskas after 1 season. He may turn out to be a bust, but 1 season is not enough time to make that determination. And nothing in Ben's production this season justifies calling him a terrible player.

It's mostly the memory of his poor rookie year lingering around or frustration with the team's continued lack of progress or some kind of personal vendetta because Ben McLemore was used as justification for jettisoning Tyreke. Heck, I don't know how other people think. But the numbers do not support the amount of criticism he gets from Kings fans. Most teams would be thrilled to have a 22 year old SG giving them this kind of production.

 

[Padrino]

Sam Amick is reporting that Kings front office is reluctant to trade Ben but surprise, Karl isn't. Yes, let's make moves to appease our lame duck coach

indeed, not a surprise at all. in his first official offseason with the team, george karl made the remark that no player was untradable. demarcus took it personally, of course, but i never did think that it was some kind of exclusive dig at demarcus. before the kings hired him, karl was openly fishing for a job, the kings had a vacancy, and he lobbied hard for the position. but once the make-up of the roster was solidified heading into training camp, karl surely looked up and down the roster and saw a collection of players completely out of step with his game plan...

if given influence over personnel decisions, karl would surely ship out a number of these kings. it could be said that a player like ben mclemore has the kind of quickness and athleticism that karl often values, but he definitely doesn't have the ball handling skills or the playmaking ability or the versatility that karl prefers for his dribble drive offense. hence marco belinelli's consistent presence in the lineup despite the lack of merit in his production...

personally, i'm sort of ambivalent to mclemore's future in sacramento. if he stays, fine. if he's traded, fine. i don't see a high enough ceiling there to warrant the defenses he frequently receives at kf.com. however, i also don't see any sense whatsoever in trading him just for the sake of placating a head coach who's own future with the team is murky, at absolute best...

 

[VF21]

personally, i'm sort of ambivalent to mclemore's future in sacramento. if he stays, fine. if he's traded, fine. i don't see a high enough ceiling there to warrant the defenses he frequently receives at kf.com. however, i also don't see any sense whatsoever in trading him just for the sake of placating a head coach who's own future with the team is murky, at absolute best...

Cosigned.

 

[hrdboild]

personally, i'm sort of ambivalent to mclemore's future in sacramento. if he stays, fine. if he's traded, fine. i don't see a high enough ceiling there to warrant the defenses he frequently receives at kf.com. however, i also don't see any sense whatsoever in trading him just for the sake of placating a head coach who's own future with the team is murky, at absolute best...

I agree with this to a certain extent. I don't think McLemore is going to grow into a star player at this point so we don't need to keep him. But I don't think he's appropriately valued either, which is mostly why I defend him. You're not going to trade a 22 year old SG for a veteran SG and come out ahead. Nobody is going to give you a productive player that plays the same position as your young pup. What you're likely to get instead is a specialist of some kind who is really only valuable on one side of the ball. And if you dump Ben as part of a bigger trade and hit the free agency market you're either going to pay a fortune for a stud (and make sacrifices elsewhere to fit under the cap) or you're going to overpay for an aging veteran like we did with Marco and roll the roulette wheel of potential age-related decline.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

We all know Petrie never made statements like that. You're asking for an impossible standard and apparently are not interested in actual debate.

He never made statements like that while he worked for the Kings/Maloofs. That doesn't mean he hasn't talked about his days with the franchise since leaving. I was leaving the door open for someone to provide something factual that I may not have been aware of. So far, that hasn't happened.

As for your second comment, why are you jumping to conclusions? I provided reasoning for my belief and said that unless someone can provide evidence to the contrary, that I refuse to believe otherwise. Feel free to provide evidence that supports the other POV.

For now, I'll stick by what I alluded to. All you have to do is look at Petrie's track history with the Kings from 1994 - 2013. Tyreke does not fit the type of player he generally drafted or attempted to acquire. He almost always opted for guys that were proficient shooters and passers. He didn't collect isolation 1-on-1 players. While a damn good player, Tyreke doesn't fit his drafting M.O. Nor do many of the players that were drafted during the Maloof downaward spiral.

I'm not saying that I know for certain what the deal really is. I'm just basing my opinion on track history and what was going on with the Maloofs during those latter years regarding coaching and personnel decisions. There was a lot of conjecture and rumor going on that Petrie's hands were tied. He certainly didn't want to fire Rick Adelman nor hire some of the coaches he eventually did. The Maloofs had taken a more "hands on" approach and it wasn't exactly a secret.

 

[Livinthedream]

indeed, not a surprise at all. in his first official offseason with the team, george karl made the remark that no player was untradable. demarcus took it personally, of course, but i never did think that it was some kind of exclusive dig at demarcus. before the kings hired him, karl was openly fishing for a job, the kings had a vacancy, and he lobbied hard for the position. but once the make-up of the roster was solidified heading into training camp, karl surely looked up and down the roster and saw a collection of players completely out of step with his game plan...

if given influence over personnel decisions, karl would surely ship out a number of these kings. it could be said that a player like ben mclemore has the kind of quickness and athleticism that karl often values, but he definitely doesn't have the ball handling skills or the playmaking ability or the versatility that karl prefers for his dribble drive offense. hence marco belinelli's consistent presence in the lineup despite the lack of merit in his production...

personally, i'm sort of ambivalent to mclemore's future in sacramento. if he stays, fine. if he's traded, fine. i don't see a high enough ceiling there to warrant the defenses he frequently receives at kf.com. however, i also don't see any sense whatsoever in trading him just for the sake of placating a head coach who's own future with the team is murky, at absolute best...

In regards to the defense of Ben, I jump in when the hyperbole becomes just too unbearable for me. I just can't sit back and read about him being a D-league level player or being the sole reason for our team losing without saying something. It's the same reason I come to Cousin's defense when people start blaming him for the ills of the franchise. But I've never said Ben would be a star. Just try to put his production in proper perspective.

 

[206Fan]

Vlade is smart enough not to do this. It doesn't mean that we won't trade Ben but it means that we are not going to trade him just to trade him for one of Karl's pets.

Bruski has long hinted that Karl has been pushing this and has been bringing up Afflalo. Problem is that Afflalo has stopped playing defense a long time ago.

Afflalo is old and doesn't play any defense...not surprised Karl wants him.

I agree with this to a certain extent. I don't think McLemore is going to grow into a star player at this point so we don't need to keep him. But I don't think he's appropriately valued either, which is mostly why I defend him. You're not going to trade a 22 year old SG for a veteran SG and come out ahead. Nobody is going to give you a productive player that plays the same position as your young pup. What you're likely to get instead is a specialist of some kind who is really only valuable on one side of the ball. And if you dump Ben as part of a bigger trade and hit the free agency market you're either going to pay a fortune for a stud (and make sacrifices elsewhere to fit under the cap) or you're going to overpay for an aging veteran like we did with Marco and roll the roulette wheel of potential age-related decline.

Another thing people overlook is that Ben and WCS are our only young pieces moving forward whether anyone likes it or not.. (They're less than a year apart) We may lose our pick this year. Next year, it's another top 10 protection with swap. The year after that, it's a top 10 protection. If neither of these are conveyed, it's a 2019 pick...same year as Cousins' FA.

Unless the Kings are planning to tank 3 years in a row, big chances are, we'll only end up with 1 draft pick for the next 3 years.

This "all in or nothing" approach is going to kill the team.

 

[Bricklayer]

Some of his production has been flat. Rebounds and blocks haven't changed much.
Some of his production is definitely moving in the right direction though:

FG%.......(Year 1) .376.....(Year 2) .437......(Year 3) .451
3pt%.......(Year 1) .320.....(Year 2) .358.....(Year 3) .372
StlsP36...(Year 1) 0.7.......(Year 2) 1.0........(Year 3) 1.4
AstP36....(Year 1) 1.3.......(Year 2) 1.9........(Year 3) 2.1

Are these advances "incremental". I suppose so. Is that a bad thing? From 37% to 45% shows significant growth, even if it came in increments. A 32% three point shooter is a non-shooter. A 37% three point shooter would rank 15th among qualified SGs right now, which is well above average. These are the core skills for a shooting guard, and he's getting progressively better at all of them.

To look at all of this and say he's garbage or that we should move him for a 31 year old journeyman or draft picks or some such is not just hyperbole, it's dangerous hyperbole because it's the kind that destroys teams in the long run who buy into it. We gave up on Nik Stauskas after 1 season. He may turn out to be a bust, but 1 season is not enough time to make that determination. And nothing in Ben's production this season justifies calling him a terrible player.

It's mostly the memory of his poor rookie year lingering around or frustration with the team's continued lack of progress or some kind of personal vendetta because Ben McLemore was used as justification for jettisoning Tyreke. Heck, I don't know how other people think. But the numbers do not support the amount of criticism he gets from Kings fans. Most teams would be thrilled to have a 22 year old SG giving them this kind of production.

And now let's take Karl's pace out of it.

Per 100 Possessions:
Yr1 16.7pts (.485TS%) 5.5reb 1.9ast 1.0stl 0.4blk 2.2TO 4.7fl 97ORTG 112DRTG 7.7PER .016WS/48
Yr2 18.8pts (.552TS%) 4.5reb 2.6ast 1.5stl 0.4blk 2.6TO 4.7fl 104ORTG 112DRTG 10.4PER .045WS/48
Yr3 17.7pts (.557TS%) 4.8reb 2.7ast 1.9stl 0.3blk 3.3TO 4.6fl 99ORTG 110DRTG 9.6PER .031WS/48

By James Anderson's 3rd year he put up:
Yr3 18.6pts (.539TS%) 9.0reb 5.3ast 1.9stl 0.6blk 3.1TO 3.1fl 107ORTG 105DRTG 13.9PER 0.106WS/48

Ben still makes no impact on games. The position is a hole. It has been straight through for this new regime after Petrie kept it eternally stocked with major players fro 20 years.