Caron Butler Promised A Trade

[Livinthedream]

Ben was touted as potentially the best pure shooter in the draft paired with crazy athleticism. When you burn the 7th pick on a guy like that, you're probably expecting a little more than 8 points a game in his third year.

Still only getting 20 min a game and relatively few shot opportunities within the context of the offense. So, like @206Fan said, if you want more points out of him, give him more shots, without the threat of yanking him for missing a shot or two.

 

[Bricklayer]

Still only getting 20 min a game and relatively few shot opportunities within the context of the offense. So, like @206Fan said, if you want more points out of him, give him more shots, without the threat of yanking him for missing a shot or two.

You can't trust him to get those shots, he doesn't know how.

That's the advantage of a real pro.

 

[Livinthedream]

You can't trust him to get those shots, he doesn't know how.

That's the advantage of a real pro.

Doesn't know how until he's given the opportunity to learn. Sounds like a catch-22.

I'll grant you that Martin is a better pro. However, I don't think the reward is great enough to bring in a vet who may be only marginally better offensively at this point in his career, in my opinion, but a significant downgrade on the defense end.

 

[206Fan]

You can't trust him to get those shots, he doesn't know how.

That's the advantage of a real pro.

Zach LaVine has probably one of the lower IQs in the NBA, but he's getting his reps.. KCP has crappy offense, yet he still gets his reps..

I think Ben deserves more than 6shots.. fans are calling for his heads because he's not putting up 20pts a game. I've never.....ever......seen anyone in the history of the NBA average 20pts off of 6shot attempts a game.

If someone gave the Kings a 22 yearold player with elite athleticism, good size, great shooting, above average defense, good finishing ability and great upside, we'd all jump for joy.
If I told you this player was capable of putting up 8pts 2rebs 1stl on 45% FG, 41% 3pt, and 81% FT in 22minutes of time, all while playing off the ball, you'd melt.
Point: Ben is young with a huge upside on both ends of the floor. Yes he doesn't have a decent feel for the game, but he's improving. He has little turn overs from time to time, but he's young. Being 28 hasn't stopped Collison from throwing a random pass off the backboard in crunch time.

I see no reason to trade him for an aging Kevin Martin who hasn't shown the ability to stay healthy, score effectively, nor play defense. Our offense has been great. Why add Martin to worsen our defense? Ben has been one of our best defenders this year. It's a toss up between him and Kofus.

Someone said up there that the only way we could trade Butler for Martin is if we included Ben. That's not happening..

 

[Bricklayer]

Zach LaVine has probably one of the lower IQs in the NBA, but he's getting his reps.. KCP has crappy offense, yet he still gets his reps..

I think Ben deserves more than 6shots.. fans are calling for his heads because he's not putting up 20pts a game. I've never.....ever......seen anyone in the history of the NBA average 20pts off of 6shot attempts a game.

If someone gave the Kings a 22 yearold player with elite athleticism, good size, great shooting, above average defense, good finishing ability and great upside, we'd all jump for joy.
If I told you this player was capable of putting up 8pts 2rebs 1stl on 45% FG, 41% 3pt, and 81% FT in 22minutes of time, all while playing off the ball, you'd melt.
Point: Ben is young with a huge upside on both ends of the floor. Yes he doesn't have a decent feel for the game, but he's improving. He has little turn overs from time to time, but he's young. Being 28 hasn't stopped Collison from throwing a random pass off the backboard in crunch time.

I see no reason to trade him for an aging Kevin Martin who hasn't shown the ability to stay healthy, score effectively, nor play defense. Our offense has been great. Why add Martin to worsen our defense? Ben has been one of our best defenders this year. It's a toss up between him and Kofus.

Someone said up there that the only way we could trade Butler for Martin is if we included Ben. That's not happening..

The player you continue to talk about does not and never has existed for the Kings.

Nor is there this huge upside thing. That just comes down to he's an athlete, but so are a lot of guys. Guys who are going to be special show something of it early. Feel is just as important as athleticism, BBall IQ, knowing how to play, everything just instinctively making sense. Without it, you are likely capped as a roleplayer. Ben's a guy who once averaged 12.1ppg on .554 TS%, in one year, and who has currently tied his career high with a 10.4 PER. Kevin Martin is a guy who has averaged 20pts a game a season six times, most recently last year. He has always had the knack. Scoring makes sense for him in a way it never will for Ben. We've seen enough to know that easily. And the argument that Kevin Martin suddenly got washed up over the course of one summer at age 32 isn't a very good one without some sort of outside mechanism.

And the thing with Ben is, that's he's never done other things. Kevin is a well known one dimensional guy, and yet we are one of the few teams that could trade our starting SG for him and not lose anything on the glass or as a passer.

If you want to argue Ben, you can only argue on these two points:
1) defense -- which contrary to some of the hilarious claims made at times is very hard to track Ben making a significant difference. When he's on the court, when he's off, we allow virtually the same number of points against us. The better argument there is that Kevin does not defend, although this year he's running at a virtual 0.0 +/- too. Normally he runs at about a negative 2-4 pts per 100 possessions rate.
2) he's here + chemistry -- Ben is here, and the team is fighting toward coming together. Why disrupt it? Now of course on the flip side, in the end having a 8ppg roleplaying kid at SG is one of the factors that will cap our rise eventually. But there has to be a comfort level consideration. I think guys like Ben, but do they like him as a teammate? Or just as a little brother? If its the former you don't want to upset the apple cart. If its the latter, guys can get used to it.

 

[DesertFox]

There is one Kevin Martin trade with Butler that I think Karl would salivate and probably ask.
KMart/Dre for Collison/Butler/Anderson

Worked on the trade checker.

And 1 thing Karl has been very vocal is how Andre Miller really understands his system.
I think Minnesota would not even blink once we make a call because their PG spot could really get a boost with Collison.
And Butler would be a damn good vet for Wiggins to learn from.

The risk would be on our end because we could end up with no PG next season or Karl fielding 2 PG with no outside shots.
But we could boost the fan base with old KMart back here and Karl would probably give KMart good minutes that Butler or Anderson can combine.
KMart would most likely eat a big chunk of Collison's minutes in rotation instead of Dre taking it all.

Personally, I like this partly because of a KMart re-union and a chance that Karl would limit his 2 PG rotation as Miller is clearly and iffy shooter and put KMart instead.

This I would be happy with. Kmart can take Collisons crunch time minutes. All eggs in the Rondo basket, but that's how it was gonna be anyway.

If we trade Ben... just no.

 

[Bricklayer]

This I would be happy with. Kmart can take Collisons crunch time minutes. All eggs in the Rondo basket, but that's how it was gonna be anyway.

If we trade Ben... just no.

That's odd.

Collison is much more important to us breaking the playoff drought then Ben would be.

There is a real core of solid vets on reasonable contracts on this team, one was PDA's work (Collison), but Koufos, Belinelli and Casspi are all Vlade's. you add in a KMart to that list and you have a real accomplished team full of veteran supporting cast guys behind the 3 main guys, and they are all on underpaid deals by the new TV contract's standards.

Going forward:

Big Three
Cousins $14.7mil (3yrs)
Rudy $12.4mil (2yrs+option)
Rondo $15mil (or so, 4yrs)

Rookie Contract
Cauley Stein $3.4mil (4yrs)

Solid Vets
Martin $7.1mil (2yrs)
Koufos $7.7mil (3yrs+option)
Collison$5.0mil (2yrs)
Belinelli $6.1mil (3yrs)
Casspi $2.8mil (2yrs)

And there's your rotation. Not one bad contract and shaky part in the batch. Very solid Top 9.. Controlled costs.

 

[DesertFox]

That's odd.

Collison is much more important to us breaking the playoff drought then Ben would be.

There is a real core of solid vets on reasonable contracts on this team, one was PDA's work (Collison), but Koufos, Belinelli and Casspi are all Vlade's. you add in a KMart to that list and you have a real accomplished team full of veteran supporting cast guys behind the 3 main guys, and they are all on underpaid deals by the new TV contract's standards.

Collison hasn't really meshed playing next to Rondo, and yet is overqualified to just be a 12min backup. Andre Miller is tailor made for that, and despite Karl's love, even he knows it would be spacing death to play them together.

So you're left with the 3 shooting guards splitting minutes, plus the spillover from Collison. There's 20 min for each guy, adjustable for matchups.

 

[Bricklayer]

Collison hasn't really meshed playing next to Rondo, and yet is overqualified to just be a 12min backup. Andre Miller is tailor made for that, and despite Karl's love, even he knows it would be spacing death to play them together.

So you're left with the 3 shooting guards splitting minutes, plus the spillover from Collison. There's 20 min for each guy, adjustable for matchups.

three SGs?

Under the Martin scenario it would really just be Kevin in for Ben essentially in the rotation, Might even cutback some on the Collison/Rondo stuff. Belinelli likely continuing to get some SF minutes as Casspi gets pushed up for some, hopefully backup, PF minutes. There are not enough minutes to go around, but that's a good thing for you as a team.

Miller is old and washed up, that's precisely what you aren't trying to add. You are trying to make the rotation 100% solid bench guys who could/should get 25 min on a good team, but may only get 20 for us. Then you know you're a good team. No holes, no kids, no scrubs. formidable for 48 min at almost every position (PF depends on Willie coming back strong).

 

[KingsFanGER]

Are people so fascinated to trade for K-Mart, because he has a history with the Kings?
Because watching him play for the Wolves, I find it hard to think of any GM willing to trade valuable assets for him.
For the Kings K-Mart doesn't make any sense. We already have a pure scorer at the SG position.
We are a decent offensive team, but have defensive problems.
In case we decide to make a trade, we should trade for someone, who improves our defense. Ideally it would be a guy around 6'6 to 6'8, who plays very aggressively on D, is able to guard weaker PF's, SF's and SG's and is able to hit a few 3's.
There we go - perfect fit for the Kings.
A player already mentioned, who partially fits those requirements - Solomon Hill.

 

[Henkel]

The last thing this team needs is another terrible perimeter defender. Who's the best perimeter defender since Artest left? Salmons during his first stint? Half a season of Tony Douglas maybe? The reason the defense has remained terrible is due to moves just like this one.

 

[KingsCitizen]

three SGs?

Under the Martin scenario it would really just be Kevin in for Ben essentially in the rotation, Might even cutback some on the Collison/Rondo stuff. Belinelli likely continuing to get some SF minutes as Casspi gets pushed up for some, hopefully backup, PF minutes. There are not enough minutes to go around, but that's a good thing for you as a team.

Miller is old and washed up, that's precisely what you aren't trying to add. You are trying to make the rotation 100% solid bench guys who could/should get 25 min on a good team, but may only get 20 for us. Then you know you're a good team. No holes, no kids, no scrubs. formidable for 48 min at almost every position (PF depends on Willie coming back strong).

I'd still hold on to Ben because KMart can't run like Ben would in a fast break or get an alley-op that Ben could. We need to keep some athletes in that SG spot because Marco is not one.
But Marco/KMart/Ben rotation will work because Casspi has been a nice rotation on that "other" forward spot, which is more likely gonna persist even if WCS comes back.

Though Dre is old, he'll fit in right away. But because he's old as Bavetta, he won't be able to take the load of Collison's minutes and Karl would be forced to give minutes to Curry/Ben/Martin in the guard rotation instead.
That would be the balance we need moving forward which would cut Karl's habit of short rotation and spread more minutes in that bench.

Dre would retire most likely after this season and Rondo will be given the full money on the PG spot, with a possible back-up that is most likely gonna be paid with a wide gap.

And not to mention we will have roster spot if we go 3 for 2 and any vet that could drop around Feb would be nice fetch along the road.

 

[KingMilz]

Is there any 3 way deals we could do to land Terrance Jones or Markieff and move Kosta (to a team that needs a big C) and Butler, cause if Rondo is our Pg moving forward we cant have both WCS and Kosta we need a athletic or skilled/shooting Pf to space the floor and be a threat. That would give us 3 skilled all around 6"9+ guys (rudy/casspi) to play next to Cousins and Willie while spacing the floor for Rondo.

I would way rather do that than trade for Kmart, we need a athletic player on the wings to cone off the bench. I have watched every single Minny game and Kmarts shot selection is on par with this years Kobe Bryant his play has been a joke and hes always on the brink of injury.

 

[Bricklayer]

Is there any 3 way deals we could do to land Terrance Jones or Markieff and move Kosta (to a team that needs a big C) and Butler, cause if Rondo is our Pg moving forward we cant have both WCS and Kosta we need a athletic or skilled/shooting Pf to space the floor and be a threat. That would give us 3 skilled all around 6"9+ guys (rudy/casspi) to play next to Cousins and Willie while spacing the floor for Rondo.

I would way rather do that than trade for Kmart, we need a athletic player on the wings to cone off the bench. I have watched every single Minny game and Kmarts shot selection is on par with this years Kobe Bryant his play has been a joke and hes always on the brink of injury.

Kosta plays a key role. A real key role if Cuz is hurt again. You just can't keep leaving Cuz in there on an island having to singlehandedly battle all the other team's bigs. Maybe the best thing Vlade did in the offseason was go bang bang and get Cuz some 7'0" tall fellow bigs to help control that middle.

 

[Bricklayer]

I'd still hold on to Ben because KMart can't run like Ben would in a fast break or get an alley-op that Ben could. We need to keep some athletes in that SG spot because Marco is not one.
But Marco/KMart/Ben rotation will work because Casspi has been a nice rotation on that "other" forward spot, which is more likely gonna persist even if WCS comes back.

Though Dre is old, he'll fit in right away. But because he's old as Bavetta, he won't be able to take the load of Collison's minutes and Karl would be forced to give minutes to Curry/Ben/Martin in the guard rotation instead.
That would be the balance we need moving forward which would cut Karl's habit of short rotation and spread more minutes in that bench.

Dre would retire most likely after this season and Rondo will be given the full money on the PG spot, with a possible back-up that is most likely gonna be paid with a wide gap.

And not to mention we will have roster spot if we go 3 for 2 and any vet that could drop around Feb would be nice fetch along the road.

This is still Kevin we are talking about. He won't give you the dunks, but he's more than speedy enough on the break, always has been.

The valid Kevin concern is the defense. Always has been. Even so, you trot out Kevin Martin at SG vs. JJ Reddick or however, and its a much different sensation than trotting out Ben. You trot out Ben against good offguards and you are just hoping that maybe he can slow them enough that they won't kill us, and that's not always a prayer that is answered. You rarely go into a game anticipating he's going to light somebody up. Happens every once in a while, but its nothing you can predict. You trot out a Kevin vs. a Reddick and you have a real expectation that hey, we could win this matchup. You're not playing from behind necessarily except vs. Harden. If Reddick puts up 17 that is easily within Kevin's range. Easily. As in basically below his career averages. It changes the whole feeling at the position. Even moreso with a guy like Rondo at the point who will get the ball where it needs to go to exploit mismatches.

The thing about Kevin's defense too, in our situation, is that his offense potentially buys us more minutes of Willie's defense. When Ben is out there and having one of his average games, we get no offensive push at all from the SG spot. We're just trying to survive. And with Rondo out there, and Willie...a ton of pressure often lands on Cuz and Rudy, and if either is struggling, we often go away from Willie to get an extra scorer on the floor (normally Omri). If Kevin is out there his defense has never been much, but if he buys you more WCS minutes by his presence, then your overall defense may not be hurt as much.

Put another way, which of these is a better defensive lineup?:

Cousins (#1)
Cauley Stein
Gay (#2)
Martin (#3)
Rondo

or

Cousins (#1)
Casspi (#3)
Gay (#2)
McLemore
Rondo

looked at that way, the damage to the defense might not be as bad as you might think because Kevin's O might buy you a defensive roleplayer in return.


I am wary of doing anything to disrupt a core that I think is coming together, but pretending its an outrageous idea that could not work seems silly. Ben is making mostly stay out of the way and don't be a sucking chest wound contributions right now, which is certainly better than how the season started when we were losing games at the position. But Kevin is another level of player, potentially. A weapon that can actually win nights on his good nights. Or he's older, tired, never had much passion, and would suck the energy out of the building Nick Anderson style. There's no guarantees here, but again, even old Kevin averaged 20ppg the last couple of years. That's a major professional scorer, and a weapon a clever offensive coach and clever offensive PG might be able to activate to get us some wins.

 

[KingMilz]

Kosta plays a key role. A real key role if Cuz is hurt again. You just can't keep leaving Cuz in there on an island having to singlehandedly battle all the other team's bigs. Maybe the best thing Vlade did in the offseason was go bang bang and get Cuz some 7'0" tall fellow bigs to help control that middle.

With the way the L is i think Cousins/Wcs size wise is enough if Cousins goes down we aint winning with or without Kosta, I rather have a Terrance Jones/Morris and maybe trying to sign a cheap 7 foot stiff with size to play for small bits. Literally just about everone is going small including long time grinders Memphis. Jones is actually a pretty decent rebounder also.

 

[Bricklayer]

With the way the L is i think Cousins/Wcs size wise is enough if Cousins goes down we aint winning with or without Kosta, I rather have a Terrance Jones/Morris and maybe trying to sign a cheap 7 foot stiff with size to play for small bits. Literally just about everone is going small including long time grinders Memphis.

The league isn't quite the way people keep on seeming to argue it is. In fact there are a lot of teams drifting back from the extreme smallballness they started the season with, and there are a lot of young bigs floating around all of a sudden. The Rockets are starting Cappella next to Dwight. The Wolves are starting KG or Dieng next to Towns. The Knicks start two 7 footers. The Spurs are starting two near 7 footers. Favors is the "smaller" of the Jazz frontline guys. Lots of big bodies around. The more you have the merrier. The Warriors can go do what they do, but without Draymond not many others do it well. Size is a great thing to have, and Kosta is the best size we have had other than Cousins in 4 years at least. And he's cheap by today's standards.

 

[IfAt1st]

Call me crazy, but Ben seems to be playing better out there the last few games - almost like he's starting to put things together (but isn't getting more PT).
He may be right at the cusp of becoming what we need him to become, and now we're seriously considering trading him for someone that would probably be traded for nothing/peanuts?

I like the idea of trying out KMart, and think he has more game left in him, and like the idea of buying on him while his value is low. I think this year is an aberration, not the accurate representation of what he can do (similar to Rondo).
But nor for Ben.
Not yet.

Question: why can't Vivek just pay some luxury tax money and get KMart for Caron?

 

[ESP47]

Brick, I'm surprised you're on board with this Kevin Martin deal. You're one of the posters who talks about getting bigger and meaner, yet you want to trade for one of the worst defending, weeniest SG's in the league. Our perimeter defense is already god awful. The last thing I want to do is to try and trade defense for even more points. McLemore is actually a decent defender but he, like all the guys, are caught up in a scheme that makes every one of them look stupid out there.

The Kings already score the 3rd most points per game in the league. We're also tied for dead last with the Pelicans for most points given up per game. The only thing that's going to happen with Kevin Martin is our PPG and our oppenents PPG will go up slightly....basically having us spin our wheels or tread water.

McLemore is getting more efficient every year. Martin is getting less efficient every year. Their careers are basically crossing each other right now with Martin trending downward and McLemore trending upward. You're essentially trading a guy who can only get better or at least stay the same, for a vet who is only going to get worse. Ben might not be lighting up the scoreboard but when he does shoot, they are going in.

I don't do this trade for the simple fact that we don't need anymore offense. We need defense.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Brick, I'm surprised you're on board with this Kevin Martin deal. You're one of the posters who talks about getting bigger and meaner, yet you want to trade for one of the worst defending, weeniest SG's in the league.

Hush! Hush! Brick advocating, however mildly, for the return of an aging Kevin Martin that is only a shadow of the Kevin Martin that he tirelessly dismissed while on the Kings is one of the delicious ironies of the year. Please don't spoil this!

 

[LPKingsFan]

Call me crazy, but Ben seems to be playing better out there the last few games - almost like he's starting to put things together (but isn't getting more PT).
He may be right at the cusp of becoming what we need him to become, and now we're seriously considering trading him for someone that would probably be traded for nothing/peanuts?

I like the idea of trying out KMart, and think he has more game left in him, and like the idea of buying on him while his value is low. I think this year is an aberration, not the accurate representation of what he can do (similar to Rondo).
But nor for Ben.
Not yet.

Question: why can't Vivek just pay some luxury tax money and get KMart for Caron?

Read Larry Coon's CBA FAQ on trades. Salaries need to be within a certain range.

 

[bajaden]

uhh... why?

Dude's like Butler are exactly what we need at the end of our bench. I guess if he's pissed he's not playing, then that isn't helpful to the locker room. But did/does he really think he'll have a 10-15 min role somewhere? Seems fairly obvious on a team with Rudy and Casspi that there wasn't a lot of room for him.

Butler isn't the kind of player that would cause problems in the locker room. Quite the opposite. However, he is the kind of player that would go to Vlade and ask if he could be traded somewhere he could actually play. He's at the end of his career, and he's probably like to go out fighting on the floor than waving a towel from the bench. I understand and respect that. Lets not paint him as a bad guy when he's been nothing but a class act.

 

[bajaden]

Since we beat Houston without Rondo, how about Butler/Rondo for Mayo/Copeland?

We won a game without Cousins too. So lets get rid of him as well...

 

[itzcoatl]

Kmart for Ben scares me because it seems like the light bulb is starting to go on in Ben's head.
I'm already shivering at the defensive horror when Karl decides to play KMart at SG and Marco at SF.

 

[Bricklayer]

Kmart for Ben scares me because it seems like the light bulb is starting to go on in Ben's head.
I'm already shivering at the defensive horror when Karl decides to play KMart at SG and Marco at SF.

Well look at it this way -- right now he's playing Marco at SF and Collison at SG, so its not like we can get much worse. At least Kevin's tall enough to switch, not that he'll fight much when he does.

 

[twslam07]

The Kevin Martin trade is a horrible idea. I could see an argument being made before the season started, but now it's borderline reckless.

Why has this team been playing so much better recently? Defense. What does a McLemore for Martin swap do? It makes our defense worse.

Look, with Cousins, Gay, & Rondo in the starting lineup, we definitely need a SG who can knock down 3s and defend. Right now, McLemore is shooting 41% from three. You can't ask for much more than that. Martin is a good 3pt shooter as well, but why are we willingly downgrading on defense? We don't need scoring from SG (which Martin brings). We need 3pt shooting and defense. This season, McLemore has been better than Martin in both of those areas.

This isn't even considering that McLemore is the same age as a senior in college versus a 32 year old Martin. Looking into the future, you would expect to Martin to begin to falloff production wise (you can even make the argument that is has started this year) whereas the odds are that McLemore will get better and be entering his prime years. There's also value in his rookie deal considering we get to choose if we want to keep him by matching any offer sheet.

We don't need a scorer at SG. We need a shooter, and that's exactly what we have right now. There's no need to swap defense for scoring at our starting SG position especially when you consider the age of the two players & the contract situation. We have enough scoring on this team already (Cousins, Gay, Collison, Belinelli, & Casspi). Now if Martin was just as good as defender as McLemore, sure make the trade, but this team doesn't need add scoring at the expense of defensive talent (no matter how mediocre that defensive talent may be).

 

[Bricklayer]

That's the thing -- remarkably we don't.

Part of that is that Collison, Bels and Casspi are our bench, and none of them is in the league of Kevin as a scorer. Part of it is we don't have a starting quality SG, and so we really only have 2 weapons in the starting lineup. And as I mentioned, because of that we are having to cheat and run stupid lineups that make our defense WORSE. We have to take out one of our best defenders in WCS to get more offense from Casspi. Or we have to play Collison as a SG because we need more offense. The idea of Martin is not that he is going to be a great defender, but just that he gives you a real starting offguard with significant offensive ability, and that let's you play WCS and normalize your rotations. You don't have to cheat anymore and play guys out of position looking for offense.

If Ben was Tony Allen it would be one thing. Then he'd be winning games in a different way. He is most definitely not Tony Allen, whatever 206 might think.

-- Our defensive rating with Ben on the floor is 107.9. With Ben off the floor is 107.6.

-- If you look at Real Plus/Minus, Ben is third from the last on the team, #303 in the league, ahead of only the comically bad Marco/Collison duo who are amazingly the dead last, and second to last worst defenders in the league by that standard. Kevin Martin is #388 by the way, the argument is never that Kevin is a better defender than virtually anyone.

Its just real hard to track any of this supposed Ben defensive impact, and I am rather more inclined to see him functioning as a placeholder than a player impacting the game.

 

[twslam07]

That's the thing -- remarkably we don't.

Part of that is that Collison, Bels and Casspi are our bench, and none of them is in the league of Kevin as a scorer. Part of it is we don't have a starting quality SG, and so we really only have 2 weapons in the starting lineup. And as I mentioned, because of that we are having to cheat and run stupid lineups that make our defense WORSE. We have to take out one of our best defenders in WCS to get more offense from Casspi. Or we have to play Collison as a SG because we need more offense. The idea of Martin is not that he is going to be a great defender, but just that he gives you a real starting offguard with significant offensive ability, and that let's you play WCS and normalize your rotations. You don't have to cheat anymore and play guys out of position looking for offense.

If Ben was Tony Allen it would be one thing. Then he'd be winning games in a different way. He is most definitely not Tony Allen, whatever 206 might think.

-- Our defensive rating with Ben on the floor is 107.9. With Ben off the floor is 107.6.

-- If you look at Real Plus/Minus, Ben is third from the last on the team, #303 in the league, ahead of only the comically bad Marco/Collison duo who are amazingly the dead last, and second to last worst defenders in the league by that standard. Kevin Martin is #388 by the way, the argument is never that Kevin is a better defender than virtually anyone.

Its just real hard to track any of this supposed Ben defensive impact, and I am rather more inclined to see him functioning as a placeholder than a player impacting the game.

I'm not sitting here and highly touting McLemore's defense. However, he is a better defender than Martin. We already have a problem with perimeter defense. I wouldn't want to exasperate that problem for the sake of adding yet another scorer. Your point that downgrading our defense (McLemore to Martin) will somehow make us a better team seems short sighted. How about we just give Cauley-Stein more minutes and prioritize defense? I'm sick and tired of people opting for offense over defense. There's been one consistent winner in the NBA, and that's defense.

Having a starting lineup of Rondo/McLemore/Gay/Cauley-Stein/Cousins is fine. Your best defenders are on the court to start the game, and we have two very solid offensive threats along with an excellent playmaking PG who is known for providing his teammates with easy looks, and a very good 3pt shooter to help spread the floor. The offense will not stall because it lacks a true "3rd scorer." And for our sake, we have 3 scorers coming off the bench to help provide a spark.

Below are the PPG of the starters for the Kings & Grizzlies:
25/18/13/8/5 vs. 16/14/14/10/6

Guess who has the higher overall point total? We do. What is this fascination with scoring in the starting unit? We are doing just fine. Let's focus on the side of the ball that matters right now, shall we?

 

[bajaden]

Still only getting 20 min a game and relatively few shot opportunities within the context of the offense. So, like @206Fan said, if you want more points out of him, give him more shots, without the threat of yanking him for missing a shot or two.

If I said I wasn't disappointed in Ben I'd be lying. I expected more. Probably not as much as most on this forum, because I knew his background, and how he had a tendency to disappear in games at Kansas. I saw him as a terrific athlete that was behind the curve skill wise and BBIQ wise. But, I did expect more. It's not so much that Ben tends to miss shots he supposed to make, its that when he's missing, he doesn't contribute much else. Now of late, he's been playing the best basketball of his career. But what am I talking about? three/four games. Hardly enough to say he finally arrived. But that's the catch. Maybe, just maybe, he is finally arriving. And if so, do we really want to trade him for a washed up vet? Not saying he's untradable. Just that if you give up a player with potential, then you should get back no less than the same.

Players that come into the league behind the curve take longer to develop. However, some never do. Gerald Wallace was behind the curve. In high school and in college, he played center. So he was ill prepared to play SF in the NBA. In Gerald's case, he did develop and became a very good player who played both sides of the ball. My advice to Ben would be to become a good, and if possible, a great defensive player. The rest of the stuff will take care of itself.

 

[VF21]

...My advice to Ben would be to become a good, and if possible, a great defensive player. The rest of the stuff will take care of itself.

Arguably the best advice he could take. SGs who can and will play good defense are always in demand.