Ben working with Kings to find a new place to play?

[KingsFanSince85]

When the Kings 1 game away from the NBA finals who was on the starting five: Webber (FA), Vlade (FA), Christie(FA), Bibby(FA) and PeJa(Draft).

It appears that several others have already disputed your claim, as you completely ignored the fact that most those non-draft acquisitions were possible because of success in the draft.

Here are all of the draft picks that were made (that actually played for the team) during Petrie's tenure. The majority of them turned out well. Several allowed the team to trade for better fits and some were exceptional considering how low they were drafted. And, yes, some were flat out awful.

1994 (8) Brian Grant Xavier University
1994 (35) Michael Smith Providence College
1994 (51) Lawrence Funderburke Ohio State University

1995 (13) Corliss Williamson University of Arkansas
1995 (47) Tyus Edney University of California, Los Angeles

1996 (14) Peja Stojakovic

1997 (11) Tariq Abdul-Wahad San Jose State University
1997 (39) Anthony Johnson College of Charleston

1998 (7) Jason Williams University of Florida
1998 (36) Jerome James Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University

1999 (45) Ryan Robertson University of Kansas

2000 (16) Hedo Turkoglu

2001 (25) Gerald Wallace University of Alabama

2004 (26) Kevin Martin Western Carolina University

2005 (23) Francisco Garcia University of Louisville

2006 (19) Quincy Douby Rutgers University

2007 (10) Spencer Hawes University of Washington

2008 (12) Jason Thompson Rider University

2009 (4) Tyreke Evans University of Memphis
2009 (23) Omri Casspi

2010 (5) DeMarcus Cousins University of Kentucky
2010 (33) Hassan Whiteside Marshall University

2011 (10) Jimmer Fredette Brigham Young University
2011 (35) Tyler Honeycutt University of California, Los Angeles
2011 (60) Isaiah Thomas University of Washington

2012 (5) Thomas Robinson University of Kansas

 

[DesertFox]

And now let's take Karl's pace out of it.

Per 100 Possessions:
Yr1 16.7pts (.485TS%) 5.5reb 1.9ast 1.0stl 0.4blk 2.2TO 4.7fl 97ORTG 112DRTG 7.7PER .016WS/48
Yr2 18.8pts (.552TS%) 4.5reb 2.6ast 1.5stl 0.4blk 2.6TO 4.7fl 104ORTG 112DRTG 10.4PER .045WS/48
Yr3 17.7pts (.557TS%) 4.8reb 2.7ast 1.9stl 0.3blk 3.3TO 4.6fl 99ORTG 110DRTG 9.6PER .031WS/48

By James Anderson's 3rd year he put up:
Yr3 18.6pts (.539TS%) 9.0reb 5.3ast 1.9stl 0.6blk 3.1TO 3.1fl 107ORTG 105DRTG 13.9PER 0.106WS/48

Ben still makes no impact on games. The position is a hole. It has been straight through for this new regime after Petrie kept it eternally stocked with major players fro 20 years.

None of the improvements noted were related to pace.

When Ben gets Marco's play calls and shoots 30% then I'll blame him. Until then he's an above average shooter who doesn't get to shoot much.

 

[hrdboild]

And now let's take Karl's pace out of it.

Per 100 Possessions:
Yr1 16.7pts (.485TS%) 5.5reb 1.9ast 1.0stl 0.4blk 2.2TO 4.7fl 97ORTG 112DRTG 7.7PER .016WS/48
Yr2 18.8pts (.552TS%) 4.5reb 2.6ast 1.5stl 0.4blk 2.6TO 4.7fl 104ORTG 112DRTG 10.4PER .045WS/48
Yr3 17.7pts (.557TS%) 4.8reb 2.7ast 1.9stl 0.3blk 3.3TO 4.6fl 99ORTG 110DRTG 9.6PER .031WS/48

By James Anderson's 3rd year he put up:
Yr3 18.6pts (.539TS%) 9.0reb 5.3ast 1.9stl 0.6blk 3.1TO 3.1fl 107ORTG 105DRTG 13.9PER 0.106WS/48

Ben still makes no impact on games. The position is a hole. It has been straight through for this new regime after Petrie kept it eternally stocked with major players fro 20 years.

What are you even doing here? You're comparing Ben McLemore's stats over a three year period playing for 3 different coaches to James Anderson's on a different team, for a different coach in a different system (and a year in which he accumulated 401 minutes played over the course of an entire season no less). What is that going to prove? The only year James Anderson ever got enough minutes to justify drawing statistical conclusions was his age 24 season in Philadelphia (you want to talk about a system that produces screwy numbers...) and he was decidedly mediocre. You're better than this Brick.

 

[sdballer]

What are you even doing here? You're comparing Ben McLemore's stats over a three year period playing for 3 different coaches to James Anderson's on a different team, for a different coach in a different system (and a year in which he accumulated 401 minutes played over the course of an entire season no less). What is that going to prove? The only year James Anderson ever got enough minutes to justify drawing statistical conclusions was his age 24 season in Philadelphia (you want to talk about a system that produces screwy numbers...) and he was decidedly mediocre. You're better than this Brick.

I love Brick and agree with him on most things but he only knows how to post in absolutes and he made up his mind about Ben a long time ago. You're never going to get him to admit that maybe he isn't as bad as he suggested or that he's outplayed Marco this year.

 

[kingsboi]

Playoff experience will ALWAYS serve a purpose. What's the purpose of missing the playoffs yet again and acquiring draft pick after draft pick? How's that been working for us? Please.

I'd rather take my chance at Vlade hitting for another stud in the draft than making the playoffs as the 8th seed giving the team false hope that the core intact can take them anywhere significant.

 

[VF21]

He never made statements like that while he worked for the Kings/Maloofs. That doesn't mean he hasn't talked about his days with the franchise since leaving. I was leaving the door open for someone to provide something factual that I may not have been aware of. So far, that hasn't happened.

Geoff Petrie has maintained complete and total silence about his days with the Kings.

 

[Bricklayer]

I love Brick and agree with him on most things but he only knows how to post in absolutes and he made up his mind about Ben a long time ago. You're never going to get him to admit that maybe he isn't as bad as he suggested or that he's outplayed Marco this year.

I find the "made up my mind about Ben a long time ago" charge particularly ironic coming from Ben jockers, who never seem to have been able to get past obsolete predraft reports.

Ben's fans are a pretty exceptional lot too. Actively engaged in an historic level delusion at this point. Ben's started 178 games in 3 seasons now, with a career PER of 9.3. In the entire history of the NBA only 1 other player has ever started that many games in his first 3 seasons with a PER under 10. That was Marc Iavaroni who was just given token starts by the early 80s 76ers so that they could bring the vastly superior Bobby Jones off the bench. Iavaroni would go on to have career averages of 4.4pts and 3.2rebs.

If we flip it over to minutes played at that level of production, we get 4 players in NBA history: Woody Salsbury (1958-60), Brandon Rush, Trenton Hassel, and Ben. Rush has averaged 7.3ppg. Hassel averaged 5.8ppg for his career. And good 'ole Woody averaged 10.7ppg...on .348 career shooting.

Ben has been given as much or more opportunity than any other player so unproductive EVER has in the entire history of the NBA. Nobody keeps on playing guys that don't produce. That's how you lose games.

Its the inverse of my frequent comment about Cousins deniers. Cousins numbers are clearly HOF numbers, and if he is not a HOFer than he would basically be the first player in NBA history to ever be so productive and not be in the HOF. When people argue against them, that is the argument they are making. First guy in 70 years to ever be that productive and not be a HOFer. Dumb argument.

Ben is the flipside, but same symptom. When people get stuck out arguing that somebody is going to be the first guy to ever do something, that his numbers are THE most deceptive in NBA history etc. etc., its a good time for them to check themselves and just how thin that limb they are wandering out along has become.

 

[sdballer]

I find the "made up my mind about Ben a long time ago" charge particularly ironic coming from Ben jockers, who never seem to have been able to get past obsolete predraft reports.

Ben's fans are a pretty exceptional lot too. Actively engaged in an historic level delusion at this point. Ben's started 178 games in 3 seasons now, with a career PER of 9.3. In the entire history of the NBA only 1 other player has ever started that many games in his first 3 seasons with a PER under 10. That was Marc Iavaroni who was just given token starts by the early 80s 76ers so that they could bring the vastly superior Bobby Jones off the bench. Iavaroni would go on to have career averages of 4.4pts and 3.2rebs.

If we flip it over to minutes played at that level of production, we get 4 players in NBA history: Woody Salsbury (1958-60), Brandon Rush, Trenton Hassel, and Ben. Rush has averaged 7.3ppg. Hassel averaged 5.8ppg for his career. And good 'ole Woody averaged 10.7ppg...on .348 career shooting.

Ben has been given as much or more opportunity than any other player so unproductive EVER has in the entire history of the NBA. Nobody keeps on playing guys that don't produce. That's how you lose games.

Its the inverse of my frequent comment about Cousins deniers. Cousins numbers are clearly HOF numbers, and if he is not a HOFer than he would basically be the first player in NBA history to ever be so productive and not be in the HOF. When people argue against them, that is the argument they are making. First guy in 70 years to ever be that productive and not be a HOFer. Dumb argument.

Ben is the flipside, but same symptom. When people get stuck out arguing that somebody is going to be the first guy to ever do something, that his numbers are THE most deceptive in NBA history etc. etc., its a good time for them to check themselves and just how thin that limb they are wandering out along has become.

I've never disagreed that he hasn't played that well. Only that his impact on the team is overblown and that the replacements others have backed are better. If he was truly so awful and such a detriment to our winning, your savvy experienced winner in Marco would have come in and proven so. Instead what we've seen is that our system isn't particularly shooter friendly and that maybe throwing a project guard with confidence issues into the starting lineup from day 1 might have as much to do with bens struggles as anything else.

Again, I don't think ben is a future star being held back by us but I think with some proper development (not just playing time) he'd be the closest thing we have to a 3 and d guard we need.

I'm also very open to the idea that he may, even in the right situation, just not be that good.

Also the whole PER thing isn't the best stay for this argument. Look around the league at starting sg/SF guys in similar roles to Ben and most are around 10-11 in per.

 

[hrdboild]

I find the "made up my mind about Ben a long time ago" charge particularly ironic coming from Ben jockers, who never seem to have been able to get past obsolete predraft reports.

Ben's fans are a pretty exceptional lot too. Actively engaged in an historic level delusion at this point. Ben's started 178 games in 3 seasons now, with a career PER of 9.3. In the entire history of the NBA only 1 other player has ever started that many games in his first 3 seasons with a PER under 10. That was Marc Iavaroni who was just given token starts by the early 80s 76ers so that they could bring the vastly superior Bobby Jones off the bench. Iavaroni would go on to have career averages of 4.4pts and 3.2rebs.

If we flip it over to minutes played at that level of production, we get 4 players in NBA history: Woody Salsbury (1958-60), Brandon Rush, Trenton Hassel, and Ben. Rush has averaged 7.3ppg. Hassel averaged 5.8ppg for his career. And good 'ole Woody averaged 10.7ppg...on .348 career shooting.

Ben has been given as much or more opportunity than any other player so unproductive EVER has in the entire history of the NBA. Nobody keeps on playing guys that don't produce. That's how you lose games.

Its the inverse of my frequent comment about Cousins deniers. Cousins numbers are clearly HOF numbers, and if he is not a HOFer than he would basically be the first player in NBA history to ever be so productive and not be in the HOF. When people argue against them, that is the argument they are making. First guy in 70 years to ever be that productive and not be a HOFer. Dumb argument.

Ben is the flipside, but same symptom. When people get stuck out arguing that somebody is going to be the first guy to ever do something, that his numbers are THE most deceptive in NBA history etc. etc., its a good time for them to check themselves and just how thin that limb they are wandering out along has become.

Yes Ben was terrible his rookie season, but we had a first year coach, owner, and GM and they traded everyone else so we really didn't have much choice but to play him. His second season he did improve -- his PER went from 7.7 to 10.4, he shot 42% from three in November and 39% in December. His steals per game went up in every month of the season. There were enough encouraging signs from the 21 year old to keep him in the rotation.

His overall numbers aren't improving this year because George Karl has chosen to ride Belinelli's worst season of his career straight into the lottery. We've even upgraded Marco to the starting lineup now just to see if that will "get his shot going". But with Ben the per36 numbers are still improving and most importantly, so are the shooting percentages. In fact, he's improved his shooting so much in the last 2 and 1/2 years that his PER would probably be in the average range for starting SGs this year if he actually got more than 6 shots per game.

Let's make some more comparisons:

Courtney Lee ...........12.4pts.....2.9reb....1.8ast....1.3stl....0.4blk....458/.370/.826
Ben McLemore........13.2pts.....3.6reb....2.1ast....1.4stl.....0.2blk...451/.372/.732
Gerald Henderson....15.3pts....5.5reb.....2.0ast...0.8stl...0.5blk....420/.365/.747
Aaron Afflalo............15.0pts....3.8reb....2.0ast....0.4stl...0.2blk....451/.373/.876
Wesley Matthews.....13.2pts.....3.2reb....2.0ast....1.1stl....0.3blk....384/.348/.848

Those are the per36 numbers of Ben McLemore and 4 other starting SGs who have been suggested either last year or this year as substantial improvements. Screw the eye test. It's useful in some cases but here it's just subjective confusion. Do any of them jump out, purely on the numbers, as a huge upgrade?

You know what's even more ridiculous than continuing to play an unproductive player major minutes? Waiting until they actually are productive... and then trading them.

 

[206Fan]

None of the improvements noted were related to pace.

When Ben gets Marco's play calls and shoots 30% then I'll blame him. Until then he's an above average shooter who doesn't get to shoot much.

People ignore this time and time again.

Ben has been given as much or more opportunity than any other player so unproductive EVER has in the entire history of the NBA. Nobody keeps on playing guys that don't produce. That's how you lose games.

You can't honestly be judging Ben on his rookie production right? CJ McCollum did nothing in his first 2 years in the NBA.

How much opportunity has he received this year? He's improved every single year, but this year his opportunities have disappeared. They've been in favor of a vet who's been much worse than him.

Don't believe me? Ben averages 16 passes received a game. Out of all SGs who play at least 19mins a game, that's good for 4th lowest. The only players who are at, or behind him are Andre Roberson, Tony Allen, Wesley Johnson, and PJ Hairston. The last time I checked, Ben is a much better shooter than all of these guys combined.
Hell, Hezonja plays 6 less minutes and gets the ball just as much as Ben does.

He averages 23 touches/g this year.. To put that into perspective, Belinelli averages 35, and Omri averages 51.


Last year during his breakout year when he was being "productive" (12.1pts 2.9rebs on 43% FG and 35% 3pt), he averaged 29passes received and 40 touches a game.

You're right, during his 2nd season, he received a lot of opportunity. However, this season, we cut everything by nearly half.

So my question is, why are you complaining that Ben isn't producing in his 3rd year, when he's literally just not getting the ball on offense? You can say he's not aggressive enough. But, he's the 3rd fastest player in the NBA, and the 5th fastest on offense. This is a big indicator that he's constantly moving and trying to get open.

I don't want to sound like a Ben lover, but I still think he can continue to develop on the right path. We've even seen improvements this year with his ball handling and driving ability. His shooting %s are also up. I'm for trading Ben if it means it makes us better, but not if it's a short-term solution to a long-term problem. It puts us at square 1 again.

(I acquired all of my stats from NBA.com. It's a shame they still don't have anything to effectively measure defense yet. Amazing offensive stuff though)

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

The thing is, Ben is already a 3 & D guy. He shoots a decent percentage and plays decent defense on most nights. There are many 3 & D guys that shoot a lower percentage than Ben. I would not trade a younger, cheaper Ben for Shumpert.

 

[John Galt]

I'm pretty much like you.... only successful.

 

[macadocious]

RealGM ‏@RealGM 6m6 minutes ago
Mavs Emerge As Possible Spot For Ben McLemore: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/240891/Mavs-Emerge-As-Possible-Spot-For-Ben-McLemore…

 

[SacTownKid]

I'd like to see the Kings get Justin Anderson out of the Mavs if they made a deal like that. He's a rookie but he's older and physically ready. Not to mention a potential stud defensively.

 

[SacKings123]

I'd like to see the Kings get Justin Anderson out of the Mavs if they made a deal like that. He's a rookie but he's older and physically ready. Not to mention a potential stud defensively.

He is a defensive animal. Would love him on this team

 

[NewArena]

if you have to dig deep and do all this research to prove why Ben is so valuable ... he probably aint. He's not a starter in this league

 

[Double-K]

Sam Amick @sam_amick

The Mavs took a lot of calls from the Kings on Ben McLemore & considered it, but not expected to make that move. T-minus 22 minutes...
21m ago

 

[hrdboild]

if you have to dig deep and do all this research to prove why Ben is so valuable ... he probably aint. He's not a starter in this league

Posting Per36 numbers and shooting percentages is digging deep? If anything I'm digging deep to come up with data which might convince stubborn people to open their eyes and stop judging Ben based on what happened 2 years ago, but it doesn't seem to matter. For reference, Kobe Bryant has taken 5400 three-pointers and his career average is 33% but try to convince a Laker fan he's not one of the greatest shooters of all time. People believe what they want to believe.