Bibby's no good, so trade Peja...
- Thread starter kperica
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Yeah, Bibby was definitely asked to do too much (just like Pedja) and neither of those two are the players that can carry the team on their shoulders every game. The only other offensive weapon was Mobley (if you count jacking up a jumper from any position on the floor an offensive weapon), and Miller and Thomas whose only offensive moves were midrange jumpers. Bobby Jackson was MIA. With all of our defensive mismatches the margin for error was very very small, especially because we are missing the players willing to do dirty little things - like Vlade and Christie...
Our playoff performances also tend to negatively correlate when Peja plays well if you take that into any account. Peja's best 2 series are the one when Webber goes down in 2003 and last year versus the Sonics. 2 Series we played less than stellar in. If we have to take down the team to push up Peja it isn't worth it. Peja needs to rise with the rest of the team, that's the difference between good and great, Peja is good, never great.
First off, to Bricklayer, to just call Peja soft is not really fair, in my opinion. Peja has not proven himself as a clutch scorer, but man has he been a clutch defender, and he's one of the best defenders on KG and Nowitzki in the league. I think the blanket "soft" label lacks a lot of nuance. And Peja hasn't improved in 5 years? Give me a break, Bricklayer. You don't have to disagree with every part of every posting. I'd like to make a polite suggestion that you can disagree with someone's general point without disagreeing with every single point they make. It gets a bit tiresome when I say 2+2 equals four and you disagree just.... well, because.
And VF21, my reaction was due to the fact that people were chiding me merely for saying what a good player Peja is and sticking up for him. The sentiment I'm hearing is, "I'm tired of people sticking up for Peja!!!" I think that criticizing someone for sticking up for a player is pretty poor form.
I think you make a great point. Peja has become the focus of a lot of frustration fans are feeling toward the Kings at the moment, and I also agree that Peja brought a lot of that on himself. But I also think it's important to keep a sense of perspective and not to let Peja be the scapegoat. That's why I was trying to push back against some of the negativity.
And also, it's not my intention to criticize Bibby or say that Peja is better (if you recall I got into an argument saying Bibby is better than Nash), I was just using it as a point of comparison.
And VF21, my reaction was due to the fact that people were chiding me merely for saying what a good player Peja is and sticking up for him. The sentiment I'm hearing is, "I'm tired of people sticking up for Peja!!!" I think that criticizing someone for sticking up for a player is pretty poor form.
I think you make a great point. Peja has become the focus of a lot of frustration fans are feeling toward the Kings at the moment, and I also agree that Peja brought a lot of that on himself. But I also think it's important to keep a sense of perspective and not to let Peja be the scapegoat. That's why I was trying to push back against some of the negativity.
And also, it's not my intention to criticize Bibby or say that Peja is better (if you recall I got into an argument saying Bibby is better than Nash), I was just using it as a point of comparison.
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Peja is not a good defender much less one of the best on KG in the league. Give me a friggin break. Sure he has shown the ability to play decent on the ball defense, but that is the extent of his defensive skills. I yell at the TV 3 or 4 times a game as Peja takes his sissy swipe at a passing player driving to the basket (You know like the one he did to Ray Allen on his game winner drive). Rebounding is also a part of defense too. Somehow he has gotten this label by his fans of being a good defender. Well, yes, he has made some nice defensive plays, but a good defender, no. He might be decent but that is it.
I think a problem here may be that you aren't understanding what soft means, or have your own defeintion. Because working off the commonly accepted one, there is absolutely no room for argument. I'm not sure there is an observer in the country who would not at least concede "soft".
Soft is:
-- not clutch
-- does not like physical play
-- does not compete when challenged
-- does not rebound
-- does not hit the floor/hustle
Thank God he learned how to be a solid man to man defender, or we would be the proud possessors of the Softest Player in the NBA. And of course even so, he still has the wonderfully soft trait of being inconsequential as a help defender.
As for not improving, you give ME a break. I get tired of having to make this same post with every new generation of Peja venerators that pops up here. it has gotten so bad that I quite literally have saved the numbers off on both my computers under the filename DRAFT_PejePer48min.txt so I don;t have to calculate them over again every time:
Per 48min
'99 48gms 18.8pts (.378 FG% .320 3pt% .851 FT%) 6.7reb 3.4ast 2.0stls 0.2blks 2.5TO
'00 74gms 24.2pts (.448 FG% .375 3pt% .882 FT%) 7.5reb 2.8ast 1.4stls 0.2blks 2.4TO
'01 75gms 25.3pts (.470 FG% .400 3pt% .856 FT%) 7.1reb 2.2ast 1.5stls 0.3blks 2.4TO
'02 71gms 27.3pts (.484 FG% .416 3pt% .876 FT%) 6.7reb 3.2ast 1.4stls 0.3blks 2.6TO
'03 72gms 27.1pts (.481 FG% .382 3pt% .875 FT%) 7.8reb 2.8ast 1.4stls 0.1blks 2.0TO
'04 81gms 28.8pts (.480 FG% .433 3pt% .927 FT%) 7.4reb 2.5ast 1.5stls 0.2blks 2.3TO
'05 66gms 25.1pts (.444 FG% .402 3pt% .920 FT%) 5.4reb 2.6ast 1.5stls 0.3blks 1.9TO
His main growth was done by his first year as a starter. He was already an underrated man defender for those paying attention, had the offensive game. And since that time? Nada. not 100% nada. He's added refinements as veteran players do. But nothing major. No more versatility to the offensive game, no more rebouodning, no more anything. He's become a little better as a FT shooter, but he was already great. Most consistent player in the NBA. But not much better since breaking onto the scene years ago.
Soft is:
-- not clutch
-- does not like physical play
-- does not compete when challenged
-- does not rebound
-- does not hit the floor/hustle
Thank God he learned how to be a solid man to man defender, or we would be the proud possessors of the Softest Player in the NBA. And of course even so, he still has the wonderfully soft trait of being inconsequential as a help defender.
As for not improving, you give ME a break. I get tired of having to make this same post with every new generation of Peja venerators that pops up here. it has gotten so bad that I quite literally have saved the numbers off on both my computers under the filename DRAFT_PejePer48min.txt so I don;t have to calculate them over again every time:
Per 48min
'99 48gms 18.8pts (.378 FG% .320 3pt% .851 FT%) 6.7reb 3.4ast 2.0stls 0.2blks 2.5TO
'00 74gms 24.2pts (.448 FG% .375 3pt% .882 FT%) 7.5reb 2.8ast 1.4stls 0.2blks 2.4TO
'01 75gms 25.3pts (.470 FG% .400 3pt% .856 FT%) 7.1reb 2.2ast 1.5stls 0.3blks 2.4TO
'02 71gms 27.3pts (.484 FG% .416 3pt% .876 FT%) 6.7reb 3.2ast 1.4stls 0.3blks 2.6TO
'03 72gms 27.1pts (.481 FG% .382 3pt% .875 FT%) 7.8reb 2.8ast 1.4stls 0.1blks 2.0TO
'04 81gms 28.8pts (.480 FG% .433 3pt% .927 FT%) 7.4reb 2.5ast 1.5stls 0.2blks 2.3TO
'05 66gms 25.1pts (.444 FG% .402 3pt% .920 FT%) 5.4reb 2.6ast 1.5stls 0.3blks 1.9TO
His main growth was done by his first year as a starter. He was already an underrated man defender for those paying attention, had the offensive game. And since that time? Nada. not 100% nada. He's added refinements as veteran players do. But nothing major. No more versatility to the offensive game, no more rebouodning, no more anything. He's become a little better as a FT shooter, but he was already great. Most consistent player in the NBA. But not much better since breaking onto the scene years ago.
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Oh come on, Bricklayer, don't break out 48 minute stats for a case like this. You're telling me a player hasn't improved when he goes from 20 ppg to 24? when he was the focal point of the offense (and therefore the opposing defense)?? When, except for an off year last year, his rebounding and 3 point shooting percentages were going up??? That is completely ridiculous. You should be ashamed to make an argument like that.
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Really, I'm not the biggest fan, but no he doesn't guard KG or Dirk very well. He guarded Rashard really well this year in the playoffs. Thing is he's gone from pretty good to good. He isn't a superstar or star. The difference between him and let's say KG, Shaq, Lebron, etc. is they make there teammates better. They get them involved, and they are the leaders of the team. Peja is neither. He doesn't pass well, he doesn't improve his teammates performance and he's never been the leader. His stand with the team was also hurt when he asked to be traded last off-season. We need Peja, but you can't expect him to be SuperStar A on the Kings and expect us to win a title, it just won't happen. He can be a nice #2 option or #3 option, a very good one at that, but he won't lead us to glory, he is incapable of this.
Oh, do not go down that "team player" road. TEAM players don't demand to be traded because their feelings are hurt.
Of course you're going to defend Peja. Have you ever said anything even slightly critical of him? Of course not...
Blech.
Sorry, but I will argue with people like sloter and AleksanderN and others who don't wear blinders as far as Peja is concerned and still respect them afterwards. But if all you can do is make excuses for him no matter what happens, then you and I have fundamental differences. Primarily, I'll still be a Kings fan if Peja is no longer on the team.
Have a nice day.
Of course you're going to defend Peja. Have you ever said anything even slightly critical of him? Of course not...
Blech.
Sorry, but I will argue with people like sloter and AleksanderN and others who don't wear blinders as far as Peja is concerned and still respect them afterwards. But if all you can do is make excuses for him no matter what happens, then you and I have fundamental differences. Primarily, I'll still be a Kings fan if Peja is no longer on the team.
Have a nice day.
I was going to say that that's embarassing. Really embarrassing. And not for me. But it occurs to me you may have misunderstood -- yes, this last season does seem to bring Peja back around full circle to the last time he did not start. But 5 years is meant as the 5 years as a starter (since '01). And there the numbers are staring you right in the face. And if you think there is some sort of massive growth going on in there you obviously have no idea how remarkably consistent those numbers are per/48. I could have swapped just about any of them around and nobody would have even blinked. That's admirable. itsd also not growth. Peja got done growing as a player a long time ago. Now Peja adds things the way vets do, a little saavy (last year he started to do the Reggie kick to draw a foul for instance). But the main growth is long past.
I don't think that being critical of players and seeing weaknesses makes you any more or less of a Kings fan than sloter, Aleksander and kksloga. They don't have to criticize players to prove themselves as Kings fans to you or anyone else. They'll still be just as much of Kings fans when Peja leaves as you will be.
And honestly, when I'm picking between loyalty to Kings players and lots of criticisms, I'll take the people who are always loyal.
P.S. Might have misinterpreted the thrust of your point, VF21, in which case I apologize. It just kind of seems like in your last comment that you don't think they'd be Kings fans if Peja left, which I don't think is quite fair.
And honestly, when I'm picking between loyalty to Kings players and lots of criticisms, I'll take the people who are always loyal.
P.S. Might have misinterpreted the thrust of your point, VF21, in which case I apologize. It just kind of seems like in your last comment that you don't think they'd be Kings fans if Peja left, which I don't think is quite fair.
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Here's the thing, Bricklayer, for Peja to have improved any further than he has (from 20 ppg to 24 ppg), he'd basically have to be the leading scorer in the league. Is that what you expect out of him? It gets exponentially harder as the ppg gets higher. Meanwhile, teams now orient their defenses around him and it's harder for him to score those same points than it ever has been. Sure, that just means it's time for him to pick up and try harder and I'd like to see his rebounding and assists numbers improve, but to say that he hasn't improved based on those stats really isn't fair.
That wasn't my intention, VF21, sorry you interpreted it that way. I just meant that I'd take people who are loyal to players over people who find too many faults. But I'd never question your loyalty.
You're obviously extremely extremely loyal. But your loyalty also doesn't give you license to question the loyalty of others or their allegiance to the Kings just because they defend certain players.
P.S. Hey, I'm a senior member now!!! (mods shudder)
You're obviously extremely extremely loyal. But your loyalty also doesn't give you license to question the loyalty of others or their allegiance to the Kings just because they defend certain players.
P.S. Hey, I'm a senior member now!!! (mods shudder)
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1. I didn't question the loyalty of "others". My comments were specifically addressed to KKsloga. No one else. He IS a complete and total Peja fan first, foremost and always. He would not be here if Peja wasn't on the team.
2. I do not question the loyalty of people like sloter, piksi, AleksanderN, etc. Not a factor in my dealings with them whatsoever. We have heated debates but I respect each of them because they are - like me - KINGS fans.
Some members of our board are members solely because Peja is on the team. It's a fact and one I generally have no problem with. When one of those Peja fans, however, continuously demeans other team players in an effort to buld Peja up it is ludicrous. This isn't PEJAFANS.com - it's Kingsfans.com.
This is exactly what I meant by you being too new to the board to understand some of the things that are ongoing. We have a pretty tight-knit community of fans here. Although a lot of members have Sept. 2004 as their join date, that is simply because of a catastrophic server failure that made it necessary for us to start over. We have, over the years, argued points so many times that we don't have to actually restate them constantly to know where each other stand. I've argued with sloter, for example, so many times about some things that we could probably say "Webber argument #1" and both know what we were referring to ...
It doesn't mean I'm questioning sloter's "loyalty" to anything. It's not about loyalty. It's about whether not not someone is truly talking about what's best for the KINGS or, in a few case, what is only best for Peja.
Now, can we just let this go?
2. I do not question the loyalty of people like sloter, piksi, AleksanderN, etc. Not a factor in my dealings with them whatsoever. We have heated debates but I respect each of them because they are - like me - KINGS fans.
Some members of our board are members solely because Peja is on the team. It's a fact and one I generally have no problem with. When one of those Peja fans, however, continuously demeans other team players in an effort to buld Peja up it is ludicrous. This isn't PEJAFANS.com - it's Kingsfans.com.
This is exactly what I meant by you being too new to the board to understand some of the things that are ongoing. We have a pretty tight-knit community of fans here. Although a lot of members have Sept. 2004 as their join date, that is simply because of a catastrophic server failure that made it necessary for us to start over. We have, over the years, argued points so many times that we don't have to actually restate them constantly to know where each other stand. I've argued with sloter, for example, so many times about some things that we could probably say "Webber argument #1" and both know what we were referring to ...
It doesn't mean I'm questioning sloter's "loyalty" to anything. It's not about loyalty. It's about whether not not someone is truly talking about what's best for the KINGS or, in a few case, what is only best for Peja.
Now, can we just let this go?
Why the hell not? Everybody else on the team from the coach on down gets criticized for their shortcomings (well, maybe not Coachie) and/or made into a scapegoat; why should Stojakovic get a free pass?
You can't say things like the guy is/was "Easily one of the top three or four players in the league," (your words) and then get all bent out of shape when he receives the level of criticism that's commensurate of a player of that stature. A player who is allegedly, at least in the eyes of a vocal minority, the best player on his team. Either he's a "number one" guy (which I don't personally think he is) and he and his fans need to suck it up and accept the level of criticism that is bestowed upon "number one" players (the same level of criticism, I'd like to point out, that Webber was subjected to as the Number One guy here), or he's a roleplayer.
You can't have it both ways, and I haven't heard anybody who says that Stojakovic shouldn't have to take criticism go on to say that he should be anything less than the Number One option, so get over it. If you don't think that he should get the star "treatment," then you need to be prepared to say that he isn't, and should be considered, a star.
Say what now?
Now I know that you haven't been here long; sloter? The sloter that posts on this board? Doesn't criticize players? They may not have to criticize players to prove themselves, but that certainly hasn't ever stopped them.
You trying to say that those guys haven't criticized Kings players? Those guys specifically? That's the most laughable thing I've read all month. And I respect sloter; he and I don't agree on much of anything, but at least he brings the content most of the time.
You can't say things like the guy is/was "Easily one of the top three or four players in the league," (your words) and then get all bent out of shape when he receives the level of criticism that's commensurate of a player of that stature. A player who is allegedly, at least in the eyes of a vocal minority, the best player on his team. Either he's a "number one" guy (which I don't personally think he is) and he and his fans need to suck it up and accept the level of criticism that is bestowed upon "number one" players (the same level of criticism, I'd like to point out, that Webber was subjected to as the Number One guy here), or he's a roleplayer.
You can't have it both ways, and I haven't heard anybody who says that Stojakovic shouldn't have to take criticism go on to say that he should be anything less than the Number One option, so get over it. If you don't think that he should get the star "treatment," then you need to be prepared to say that he isn't, and should be considered, a star.
Say what now?
Now I know that you haven't been here long; sloter? The sloter that posts on this board? Doesn't criticize players? They may not have to criticize players to prove themselves, but that certainly hasn't ever stopped them.
You trying to say that those guys haven't criticized Kings players? Those guys specifically? That's the most laughable thing I've read all month. And I respect sloter; he and I don't agree on much of anything, but at least he brings the content most of the time.
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