Bee reporting that Westphal will be next coach

[kennadog]

And I still recall something I noted at the time, but did not think was a huge issue until the events of later years -- as the 03-04 season kicked off Rick talked about how nobody could tell him that the team was the same as before, even though the core was pretty much all back. That it wasn't as long or versatile and people shouldn't expect the same results. At the time you looked out there and saw Vlade and Peja and Doug and Mike etc. and said, well its pretty much the same. But Rick was of course very much right in retrospect. In that one one summer that team was stippred of the vast majority of its length and athleticism, probably 4 of its 6 best defensive players...and they were replaced by Brad Miller and Darius Songaila.

02-03 --> 03-04 Out:
Keon Clark
Scot Pollard
Hedo Turkoglu
Jim Jackson
healthy Chris Webber
Damon Jones

03-04 --> In:
Brad Miller
Darius Songaila
Tony Massenberg
Rodney Carney
Anthony Peeler
Bum Knee Webb

throw in rapidly aging Vlade and Doug, and is it any shock the defense fell off so dramatically? Old Vlade, Brad Miller, and Peja Sotjakovic, backed up by Darius Songaila and 6'4" Anthony Peeler as a defensive frontcourt?

Thanks, Brick. I didn't have time then to post the roster.

 

[Entity]

it was Rodney Buford not Carney. but he was a pretty good defender only averaged like .3 min a game

 

[SacKings7]

And I still recall something I noted at the time, but did not think was a huge issue until the events of later years -- as the 03-04 season kicked off Rick talked about how nobody could tell him that the team was the same as before, even though the core was pretty much all back. That it wasn't as long or versatile and people shouldn't expect the same results. At the time you looked out there and saw Vlade and Peja and Doug and Mike etc. and said, well its pretty much the same. But Rick was of course very much right in retrospect. In that one one summer that team was stippred of the vast majority of its length and athleticism, probably 4 of its 6 best defensive players...and they were replaced by Brad Miller and Darius Songaila.

02-03 --> 03-04 Out:
Keon Clark
Scot Pollard
Hedo Turkoglu
Jim Jackson
healthy Chris Webber
Damon Jones

03-04 --> In:
Brad Miller
Darius Songaila
Tony Massenberg
Rodney Carney
Anthony Peeler
Bum Knee Webb

throw in rapidly aging Vlade and Doug, and is it any shock the defense fell off so dramatically? Old Vlade, Brad Miller, and Peja Sotjakovic, backed up by Darius Songaila and 6'4" Anthony Peeler as a defensive frontcourt?

I will forever hate that signing . May as well put Wallace on the "out" list.

 

[Showtime]

I will forever hate that signing . May as well put Wallace on the "out" list.

The one thing that gives me very little comfort:

 

[hrdboild]

Looking at it that way, it appears that Hedo and Pollard for Brad Miller was possibly as much of a tipping point for this team as Webber's injury was. At the time it seemed like a good idea -- Vlade was getting older and Brad Miller was coming off an All-Star season. But Brad Miller was only really good for two years and after that Hedo probably out-performed him. Not to mention Brad Miller didn't really have the personality qualities to replace what Vlade meant to the team (not that anyone would) and his defensive limitations only became more apparent over time. A team can afford to have two bad defenders in it's starting lineup it seems as long as you've got some defense on the bench and the other three starters are at least average. Once you get to three poor defenders in your starting lineup you're in trouble.

 

[LPKingsFan]

The one thing that gives me very little comfort:

Yes! And then Flip Saunders picking Jabari Smith to take the flagrant free throws, and ice cold Jabari sinks them! Almost worth losing Wallace...

Almost.

 

[SacKings7]

Yes! And then Flip Saunders picking Jabari Smith to take the flagrant free throws, and ice cold Jabari sinks them! Almost worth losing Wallace...

Almost.

AFTER Peja already missed one, then good ol' Flip called on Jabari to shoot instead. Awesome!

 

[swisshh]

And I still recall something I noted at the time, but did not think was a huge issue until the events of later years -- as the 03-04 season kicked off Rick talked about how nobody could tell him that the team was the same as before, even though the core was pretty much all back. That it wasn't as long or versatile and people shouldn't expect the same results. At the time you looked out there and saw Vlade and Peja and Doug and Mike etc. and said, well its pretty much the same. But Rick was of course very much right in retrospect. In that one one summer that team was stippred of the vast majority of its length and athleticism, probably 4 of its 6 best defensive players...and they were replaced by Brad Miller and Darius Songaila.

02-03 --> 03-04 Out:
Keon Clark
Scot Pollard
Hedo Turkoglu
Jim Jackson
healthy Chris Webber
Damon Jones

03-04 --> In:
Brad Miller
Darius Songaila
Tony Massenberg
Rodney Carney
Anthony Peeler
Bum Knee Webb

throw in rapidly aging Vlade and Doug, and is it any shock the defense fell off so dramatically? Old Vlade, Brad Miller, and Peja Sotjakovic, backed up by Darius Songaila and 6'4" Anthony Peeler as a defensive frontcourt?

The problem is that those lengthy athletic players you listed were shipped away partly because Rick had already shortened their playing time towards the end of the season and playoffs, effectively demonstrating an unwillingness to be defensive and making them expendable for a guy the team foolishly thought would help them against Shaq(Brad), though the major foolishness was not anticipating Shaq's decline would make the issue less important without change anyways).

You may not see the Brad trade if Rick hadn't randomly doghoused Hedo.

 

[Bricklayer]

The problem is that those lengthy athletic players you listed were shipped away partly because Rick had already shortened their playing time towards the end of the season and playoffs, effectively demonstrating an unwillingness to be defensive and making them expendable for a guy the team foolishly thought would help them against Shaq(Brad), though the major foolishness was not anticipating Shaq's decline would make the issue less important without change anyways).

You may not see the Brad trade if Rick hadn't randomly doghoused Hedo.

Those players lost their minutes to each other -- and there was no non-defense about that team. It was the best defensive team in the league that year. Who took Hedo's minutes? JJ. Who took/split Clark's minutes? Pollard. Defense for defense.

 

[Aenadin]

All I know about this guy is that he was the coach of the year in the D League two years in a row.(2007 and 2008 I think)

hes got good defensive stance! hands up! defensive coach

 

[Rookie]

People still dogging Rick?

Last I've heard Houston was playing pretty well. Doesn't make sense that a coach like Rick would be successful if he stink it up in Sacramento.

Oh wait..wasn't he the reason why we got to the playoff year after year, injury after injury?

Oh I forgot...if a coach can't get us "the Ring"..he suck and should get the boot. I wonder where Jerry Sloan would be if the Utah was like Sacramento or where Sacramento would be if we were more like Utah.

Good coaches are hard to come by..Utah understand it well. Even if Sloan fail to make the playoff they still keep him. Just a shame we don't have that kind of tolerance here.

 

[bajaden]

I would like to welcome Westphal. I just hope everyone gives him a fair shake. Something I don't think he had in Seattle. I went back and read some of the Seattle Times stories from that time period and I think some things need to be said.

First off, when Westphal was interviewed for the job as head coach, he was interviewed by GM Wally Walker, and guess who? Yep, Gary Payton. This alone should indicate how much power Payton had with the Sonic's. Apparently Payton didn't like Westphal for a variety of reasons, among them political, which I won't go into. Unfortuately, Westphal's first season was the lockout season. Which meant he couldn't even introduce himself to his new team, since no contact was allowed between management and the players. Hard way to start a season as the new head coach.

He was criticized that season for starting Billy Owens over Schrempf and Hawkins. In truth Owens started only 19 of the 50 games played and in 6 of those, he started along side of Schrempf and Hawkins. Schrempf and Hawkins had the second and third most minutes on the team behind Payton. Schrempf was 36 years old and Hawkins was 32 years old. They both lasted only a couple of more years in the NBA.

Even during that first season there were rumors of Westphal being replaced by McMillan. The next season the team went 45/37 and made the playoffs. The heart of the team was made up of Payton, Baker, and three young players in Reggie Lewis, Jelani McCoy, and Vladmir Stepania. Although starting the season overweight, Baker had gotten his weight down to respectable numbers and had seemed to regained some of his quickness, which as Westphal pointed out in an article, he had to have to be special. Without the quickness, he was just another ordinary player. Baker was also dealing with alcoholism and irrational behavior. His play was inconsistant. By years end Lewis had surplanted Baker as the number two guy on the team. Baker was Payton's closest friend on the team.

Next year they brought in a washed up Patick Ewing who averaged 9pts and 6 rebounds a game. It was apparent that Ewing was just a mere shell of his former self, bad knee's and all. The team started well, but soon problems set in. Payton was fined and suspended for one game for screaming at Westphal during a game from the bench. Westphal got the suspension lifted after Payton apparently apologized during a meeting with Westphal. 6 days later Westphal was fired. He was replaced by McMillan. Westphal's team went 44/38 that year. McMillan's team the next year went 45/37.

The bottom line, is that Payton had tremendous power and influence on that team. He didn't like Westphal and couldn't or wouldn't get along with him. He didn't like the way Westphal handled his good friend Baker. When you consider how Westphal had to start his headcoaching job there, in a lockout year. And that in the second year he had 9 new players on the roster including three rookies, he did a pretty good job.

For those interested in more info, here's a link to get you started.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20000427&slug=4017773

 

[Jespher]

Thanks for the info bajaden. I like the pick more now already

 

[Bricklayer]

Interesting to note that reading between the lines of Rambis's radio interview about this thing, it seems that he was uncomfortable with our youth movement and wanted more years in his contract so thaty he'd have security to see it through rather than being canned after a couple of years of losing with the kids while somebody else took over in time to gain the benefits of the development that he had done. And apparently we said no. So the whole short contract 2-year thing we gave Westphal again may have been at our insistence -- looks like we may have intentionally wanted to go cheap and short term so its probably lucky we were able to find a experienced guy willing to put up with that.

Also according to the Bee the long holdup was indeed us dickering around with Rambis, and Westphal got tired of it after basically reaching terms with us a month ago and being forced to wait while it was obvious he was being made a second choice.

 

[asakkings]

We can blame all of our coaching problems on Billy Donavan, if he doesnt pull out of the Orl gig we would have Stan Van Gundy as our coach right now. I hate Donavan for that, and for beating up on my Bruins two years in a row.

 

[mac]

Interesting to note that reading between the lines of Rambis's radio interview about this thing, it seems that he was uncomfortable with our youth movement and wanted more years in his contract so thaty he'd have security to see it through rather than being canned after a couple of years of losing with the kids while somebody else took over in time to gain the benefits of the development that he had done. And apparently we said no. So the whole short contract 2-year thing we gave Westphal again may have been at our insistence -- looks like we may have intentionally wanted to go cheap and short term so its probably lucky we were able to find a experienced guy willing to put up with that.

Also according to the Bee the long holdup was indeed us dickering around with Rambis, and Westphal got tired of it after basically reaching terms with us a month ago and being forced to wait while it was obvious he was being made a second choice.

Well let's just hope that Westphal is THE man who's gonna bring us back to greatness. Just a side question, how much would he be getting paid in the Mavs FO? Because well frankly if someone offered me a million dollars I'd be very willing to "put up with that"

 

[funkykingston]

Interesting to note that reading between the lines of Rambis's radio interview about this thing, it seems that he was uncomfortable with our youth movement and wanted more years in his contract so thaty he'd have security to see it through rather than being canned after a couple of years of losing with the kids while somebody else took over in time to gain the benefits of the development that he had done. And apparently we said no. So the whole short contract 2-year thing we gave Westphal again may have been at our insistence -- looks like we may have intentionally wanted to go cheap and short term so its probably lucky we were able to find a experienced guy willing to put up with that.

Also according to the Bee the long holdup was indeed us dickering around with Rambis, and Westphal got tired of it after basically reaching terms with us a month ago and being forced to wait while it was obvious he was being made a second choice.

I completely understand Rambis' point. He was being asked to leave the (soon-to-be) NBA champions for the worst team in the league, a team without a franchise or even all-star player and only given a two year window to turn things around. Not to mention, I think KR will be a good coach but he is coming from a team that has missed the playoffs TWICE in the last 25 years or so, going back to his own playing days. As a coach he's never dealt with the adversity he'd experience here and to come on the cheap with little margin for error due to the short deal - I can understand why he wouldn't take the job.

On the plus side, the fact that Westphal has been around the block will be a positive here. He's seen ups and downs, he's not on his first job as a coach and concerned with his W/L record. I think he's a better fit in terms of understanding the big picture. We'll see.

 

[kennadog]

There is some semantics going on here. As Petrie said the other day, all candidates were given the same contract terms either before or right after the interview. He said if a candidate did not accept the contract terms, he would not receive a job offer. That's the way a lot of job interviews go in the real world.

So basically Rambis dragged his feet on making a decision about whether he would accept those contract terms and finally said no. Therefore, by the pre-conditions set before or right after the interview, he could not be offered the job and wasn't. I think that's why GP emphasized that they all had had plenty of time to consider the contract terms.

What did turn me off, was Rambis said he and his wife discussed everything, then basically his wife turned down the job. You discuss it together and then she made the decision????? Way to blame your spouse, guy.

 

[VF21]

We can blame all of our coaching problems on Billy Donavan, if he doesnt pull out of the Orl gig we would have Stan Van Gundy as our coach right now. I hate Donavan for that, and for beating up on my Bruins two years in a row.

sorry, but I'm pretty glad donavan backed out of the Orlando deal. If he didn't, we'd be dealing with Van Gundy right now and I did not want him to begin with. His current losing efforts in the finals hasn't endeared him to me in any way as there have been several times when I've felt my cat could have done a better job of guiding the Magic through things like post play, inbounding, etc. SVG is over-rated and would have been highly over-paid if we had signed him...

 

[Kingster]

I would like to welcome Westphal. I just hope everyone gives him a fair shake. Something I don't think he had in Seattle. I went back and read some of the Seattle Times stories from that time period and I think some things need to be said.

First off, when Westphal was interviewed for the job as head coach, he was interviewed by GM Wally Walker, and guess who? Yep, Gary Payton. This alone should indicate how much power Payton had with the Sonic's. Apparently Payton didn't like Westphal for a variety of reasons, among them political, which I won't go into. Unfortuately, Westphal's first season was the lockout season. Which meant he couldn't even introduce himself to his new team, since no contact was allowed between management and the players. Hard way to start a season as the new head coach.

He was criticized that season for starting Billy Owens over Schrempf and Hawkins. In truth Owens started only 19 of the 50 games played and in 6 of those, he started along side of Schrempf and Hawkins. Schrempf and Hawkins had the second and third most minutes on the team behind Payton. Schrempf was 36 years old and Hawkins was 32 years old. They both lasted only a couple of more years in the NBA.

Even during that first season there were rumors of Westphal being replaced by McMillan. The next season the team went 45/37 and made the playoffs. The heart of the team was made up of Payton, Baker, and three young players in Reggie Lewis, Jelani McCoy, and Vladmir Stepania. Although starting the season overweight, Baker had gotten his weight down to respectable numbers and had seemed to regained some of his quickness, which as Westphal pointed out in an article, he had to have to be special. Without the quickness, he was just another ordinary player. Baker was also dealing with alcoholism and irrational behavior. His play was inconsistant. By years end Lewis had surplanted Baker as the number two guy on the team. Baker was Payton's closest friend on the team.

Next year they brought in a washed up Patick Ewing who averaged 9pts and 6 rebounds a game. It was apparent that Ewing was just a mere shell of his former self, bad knee's and all. The team started well, but soon problems set in. Payton was fined and suspended for one game for screaming at Westphal during a game from the bench. Westphal got the suspension lifted after Payton apparently apologized during a meeting with Westphal. 6 days later Westphal was fired. He was replaced by McMillan. Westphal's team went 44/38 that year. McMillan's team the next year went 45/37.

The bottom line, is that Payton had tremendous power and influence on that team. He didn't like Westphal and couldn't or wouldn't get along with him. He didn't like the way Westphal handled his good friend Baker. When you consider how Westphal had to start his headcoaching job there, in a lockout year. And that in the second year he had 9 new players on the roster including three rookies, he did a pretty good job.

For those interested in more info, here's a link to get you started.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20000427&slug=4017773

Thanks for the report. It's very interesting. It sounded like there were too many head cases on that team for any coach to deal with, especially when the owner established who the "boss" was (Peyton) from the beginning. Westphal may have to deal with a lot of inexperience on this team, and some lack of talent, but a big positive is that we don't have any head cases. (I'm soooo glad Artest is gone). When you have that type of situation, it makes it much more difficult on the coach. Presumably, Petrie and the Maloofs have learned their lesson on that score.

I got very good vibes listening to Westphal on the radio. Despite the fact that he graduated from USC, he does appear to be very bright.