2011 NBA Draft Combine - Discussion

[ElRey]

some prelim draft measurements coming out. Check out this link from draftexpress for top 5, and worse 5 of each athletic measurement.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/2011-NBA-Combine-Athletic-Testing-Results-3725


Some interesting things

1. Freddette is not slow check out his lane agility tests
2. Chris Singleton is pretty fast in the full court sprint for a big guy
3. Kemba walker has a nice vertical at 39.5.

 

[Dime Dropper]

Iman Shumpert is an absolute freak of nature athletically. Best jumper in the draft, and came in third overall in the bench press. Pretty astounding for a combo guard. Great size too. He's going to get drafted on physical attributes alone. Can see him sneaking up the draft boards. Someone will take a flyer on him in the early-mid 2nd round.

I knew Walker had done well on the vertical testing having seen it, but wasn't sure what the final number would be. 39.5 inches is great for a PG, and that will only help his stock. I actually really like Kemba and think he could be a very good player, it's just a shame he doesn't look like a good fit for this team.

As far as Fredette goes, did anyone else notice during the agility test that his lateral movement looked phenomenal? That's where he made up his time. He got the whole way across in what looked like two sideways strides (from memory). I definitely was shocked at his lateral movement and I think it bodes well for him in regards to whether he can be an adequate defender at the next level.

Singleton confirmed what we already know. Great athlete for his size. Runs the floor extremely well. Reminds me of a bigger, longer, more athletic Deng (without the offense as of yet). Could be a LeBron stopper in the future.

 

[Dime Dropper]

PS. I really like Selby. He had a disappointing year, but has alot of talent. Could definitely be a future spark plug off the bench. Great athlete, talented, and a very nice kid.

 

[ElRey]

Iman Shumpert is an absolute freak of nature athletically. Best jumper in the draft, and came in third overall in the bench press. Pretty astounding for a combo guard. Great size too. He's going to get drafted on physical attributes alone. Can see him sneaking up the draft boards. Someone will take a flyer on him in the early-mid 2nd round.

I knew Walker had done well on the vertical testing having seen it, but wasn't sure what the final number would be. 39.5 inches is great for a PG, and that will only help his stock. I actually really like Kemba and think he could be a very good player, it's just a shame he doesn't look like a good fit for this team.

As far as Fredette goes, did anyone else notice during the agility test that his lateral movement looked phenomenal? That's where he made up his time. He got the whole way across in what looked like two sideways strides (from memory). I definitely was shocked at his lateral movement and I think it bodes well for him in regards to whether he can be an adequate defender at the next level.

Singleton confirmed what we already know. Great athlete for his size. Runs the floor extremely well. Reminds me of a bigger, longer, more athletic Deng (without the offense as of yet). Could be a LeBron stopper in the future.

Walker has almost the same vertical as Derrick Rose, who measured at 40". Too bad he doesn't have Rose's size.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I was watching Selby's interview, and he sounds like a dumbass.

 

[KingsCitizen]

Marshon Brooks looks athletically legit! And his wingspan is superb for a SG!

I would love for the Kings to snag this kid in the 2nd round.
But the way he comes in the combines, he may not last beyond 20th pick!

Jeremy Tyler is interesting, but doubt it's ideal to bring this kid's attitude within 10 ft from Cousins.

Kemba is growing on me. But he is almost like a smaller version of Thornton. So I'd pass on him if we're serious on Marcus.

It's tough not to see these Euro players at the combines. Especially on this draft where probably 1/3 of the top 15 picks will come from overseas.

 

[bajaden]

Marshon Brooks looks athletically legit! And his wingspan is superb for a SG!

I would love for the Kings to snag this kid in the 2nd round.
But the way he comes in the combines, he may not last beyond 20th pick!

Jeremy Tyler is interesting, but doubt it's ideal to bring this kid's attitude within 10 ft from Cousins.

Kemba is growing on me. But he is almost like a smaller version of Thornton. So I'd pass on him if we're serious on Marcus.

It's tough not to see these Euro players at the combines. Especially on this draft where probably 1/3 of the top 15 picks will come from overseas.

Brooks will not make it out of the first round.

 

[bajaden]

PS. I really like Selby. He had a disappointing year, but has alot of talent. Could definitely be a future spark plug off the bench. Great athlete, talented, and a very nice kid.

The question with Selby is can he play the point. At 6'1" he's a little short for the SG position. I don't have that answer, as he played off the ball most of the time.

 

[bajaden]

Iman Shumpert is an absolute freak of nature athletically. Best jumper in the draft, and came in third overall in the bench press. Pretty astounding for a combo guard. Great size too. He's going to get drafted on physical attributes alone. Can see him sneaking up the draft boards. Someone will take a flyer on him in the early-mid 2nd round.

I knew Walker had done well on the vertical testing having seen it, but wasn't sure what the final number would be. 39.5 inches is great for a PG, and that will only help his stock. I actually really like Kemba and think he could be a very good player, it's just a shame he doesn't look like a good fit for this team.

As far as Fredette goes, did anyone else notice during the agility test that his lateral movement looked phenomenal? That's where he made up his time. He got the whole way across in what looked like two sideways strides (from memory). I definitely was shocked at his lateral movement and I think it bodes well for him in regards to whether he can be an adequate defender at the next level.

Singleton confirmed what we already know. Great athlete for his size. Runs the floor extremely well. Reminds me of a bigger, longer, more athletic Deng (without the offense as of yet). Could be a LeBron stopper in the future.

I haven't looked at the results since this morning, and they wern't in yet then. But I did see the drill with Fredette that your talkiing about, and it looke fast to me. I said Fredette was goiing to surprise people with his athleticism.

 

[tevans13]

I think your ignoring the fact that Kemba didn't guard Knight, Lamb did. And as I pointed out, Lamb is 6'5" and the best defender on the UCONN team. Look, I like Kemba and I'll give him his due, and say that Knight had his hands full guarding him, but did a decent job on a player that was lightning quick. But I'm not going to give Kemba credit for a great defensive job on Knight when he was being guarded by Lamb the majority of the time. Which by the way was a very smart move by UCONN. And by the way, I've given Walker plenty of credit for his defensive abilities. But everytime UCONN had matchup problems at the Point, they would put Lamb on the other teams PG. It didn't happen that often, but it did happen on occasion.

My biggest criticism of Knight would be that he shoots off balance too often, and misses too many wide open 3 pt shots. Both things very correctable. And that when guarded by other points that are bigger, and as quick, or almost as quick, he has problems with the matchup. He had problems guarding Sheldon Mack of Butler, and once again, UCONN put Lamb on Mack, and he did a great job. But Mack, who guarded Walker most of the time also did a great job on him.

This isn't just about looking at stat sheets and seeing who did what. Its about who actually guarded who. Which puts the stat sheet into prespective.

I have to agree with bajaden on this, Lamb is one of the top defensive players in college basketball, they put him on knight for a reason. So you can't say that kemba outplayed knight on both sides of the ball when they didn't both guard each other.

 

[bajaden]

Interesting to look at the athletic results and see some some of the perceptions debunked. For instance Marshon Brooks, who led his conference and I believe the NCAA in scoring, was considered a late first round to early second round pick. One has to wonder why. True, he didn't get the national notoriety at Providence which wasn't on TV very much. I think I only got to see him play 4 or 5 times. Well, the biggest knock on him was that he wasn't very athletic.

I remember reading that about him, and it just didn't jell with what I was seeing. I even said in one of my write ups that he reminded me of Kobe Bryant in his body language, attitude, and style of play. I had to think about it a long time before I wrote that, knowing that some would think me crazy.

Well now the results are in and guess what. The kids a very good athlete. He recorded a 38.5 max vertical, a 11'7.5" max reach, 10.74 seconds in the lateral agility drill, and 3.09 seconds in the sprint drill.

To put that in prespective, lets compare him to someone that came in with the perception of being a very good athlete. Alex Burks. Burks recorded a 36' max vertical, a 11'7.5" max reach, 10.96 seconds in the lateral agility drill, and 3.17 seconds in the sprint drill.

Hey, I think you have to give the edge to Brooks. Burks is 6'6", and Brooks is just under 6'6". Brooks is definitely the better shooter, and shot 48.3% overall from the floor. Brooks has a wicked crossover dribble and handles the ball as well as anyone in the draft.

So whose the better prospect, and if its Burks, then why? While Brooks did play for Providence, a school that doesn't immediately leap to mind when thinking about college basketball. Providence does play in the Big East conference along with UCONN, Pittsburg etc. So one could argue Brooks went up against just as tough a competition as Burks did at Colorado.

Perception isn't always reality.. I would expect him to start rising on the draft board as more teams bring him in for workouts.

 

[bajaden]

Here's a little more worthless anaylysis. Lets take a look at some of the SF prospects, now that we have combine athletic results to add to the mix.

The top guy is obviously Derrick Williams. Lets see how he fared athleticly to the others. Willaims posted a 34.5" max vertical, a 11'10" max reach, an 11.30 second lateral agility drill, and a 3.23 second sprint drill. All decent to above average numbers for the SF position.

By comparison, Jordan Hamilton posted a 32" max vertical, a 11'4" max reach, an 11.47 second lateral agility drill, and a 3.30 second sprint drill. All basicly average to slightly above average.

How about Kawhi Leonard, who is considered a front runner after Williams because of his athleticism. He posted a 32" max vertical, a 11'6" max reach, an 11.45 second lateral agility drill, and a 3.15 second sprint drill. Hmmm! Not a whole different than Hamiltons. Certainly not enough to make him a hands down favorite just based on athletic ability.

Lets take a look at Chris Singleton. He posted a 37.5" max vertical, a 11'9" max reach, an 11.33 second lateral agility drill, and a 3.09 second sprint drill. All impressive numbers for the SF position, expecially for a 6'9" player.

Finally, lets take a look at someone that played PF in College, but is projected at the SF position in the NBA. Tobias Harris, a 6'8" freshman, and another victim of Tennessee's crappy system. But thats another story. The biggest worry about Harris was his athleticism. He posted a 37.5" max vertical, a 11'9" max reach, an 10.96 lateral agility drill, and a 3.17 second sprint drill. Certainly all above average numbers.

So what does this all mean? Well, not much actually if you can't play. But if you have skills, it can remove some doubts about some of your potential in areas that need to be improved. In Harris case, offensively he's raw, but you can see the long term potential there. But defensively there were question marks about his ability to guard SF's at the next level. These results show that at the very least, he has the athletic ability to accomplish that. Doesn't mean he will. But at least the risk is reduced.

When you look at Chris Singleton's athletic numbers, add in his proven college track record as a defender, and that he fared very well in the shooting drills, you have to wonder if he won't move up the draft boards. He is in fact, the very essence of what the Kings are looking for at the SF position. He's a lockdown defender that can hit the open spot up shot.

 

[Hallama]

Thought the same about Brooks - I can see him rising to the top 15. Good analysis on the SFs, some surprising unimpressive results except for Harris and Singleton.

Can't believe Selby had a 42" vertical, and Kemba just a nick under at 39.5", wow.

 

[bajaden]

Thought the same about Brooks - I can see him rising to the top 15. Good analysis on the SFs, some surprising unimpressive results except for Harris and Singleton.

Can't believe Selby had a 42" vertical, and Kemba just a nick under at 39.5", wow.

Well I knew that Walker would put up a good number. I saw him play too much to not know the kid could get off the ground. Selby did surprise me a little. I knew he was a good athlete, but I had no idea he had those kind of hops. He had good court speed as well. Hey, he could be the next Westbrook. Or not!

 

[Arby's Roast Beef]

These athletic testing markers are better used for sleepers that we can get with our #35 selection. At this point, this being in the 2nd round, forget positions of need, just go with best player available. Iman Shumpert probably won't fit in our team as we already have our own 6'6" PG in Tyreke Evans, but we can nab him and perhaps get a greater return out of him once he gains value. Travis Leslie also another favorite, but is a bit of a 6'4" SF and has a similar gameface to Evans as well. HUGE fan of Jimmy Butler, a part of me even thinks he can have mid-1st round value in this year's draft. Not even the same caliber of athlete, but he strikes me as similar to Corey Maggette--while Mags is athletic, he's a below the rim slasher.

Guys we absolutely have to get if they drop:

1) Iman Shumpert
--Elite level athlete with excellent strength. Elite leaping ability, both straight up and with a running start. Good conditioning. Reasonable lateral quickness/transition speed/wingspan. Surprisingly small reach.
--Excellent at making defensive plays for size without fouling. OK rebounder for size.
--Oversized PG (6'6"). Possesses very good court vision/ballhandling for size, but very turnover prone.
--Very misleading offensive player. Has bad primary shooting stats and is a bad long range shooter, but has a decent offensive construct. Reasonable at slashing and willing to take three pointers. Better shooter than given credit for.
--Questionable NBA readiness. Has bust potential.
Comparison: Poor man's, taller Russell Westbrook
Rook stats (in 20 mins): 2-7 FGs, 1-4 3FGs, 3-4 FTs, 3 reb, 3 ast, 2 stl, 3 TO

2) Travis Leslie
--Peaked, NBA-ready. Excellent defensive playmaker for size without fouling. Very good rebounder for size. Strong intangibles.
--Elite level athlete, both straight up and with a running start. Good in transition. Long wingspan and good reach, can defend NBA SGs. Reasonable lateral quickness. Just OK strength. Borderline conditioning.
--Reasonably good ballhandler/passer. Might be poor offensive player. Just OK shooting ability but an incredibly mechanical/nonelusive offensive game.
Comparison: Tony Allen
Rook stats (in 20 mins): 1-3 FGs, 0-0 3FGs, 0-0 FTs, 5 reb, 2 ast, 2 stl, 1 TO

3) Jimmy Butler
--NBA-ready with upside. Good offensive player. Good shooter, but lacks range. Excellent offensive construct, virtually because of his ability to draw fouls.
--Great ballhandling ability for his size (6'8") and unselfish, but nondescript as a passer. Good rebounder for size.
--Poor defensive playmaker. Appears to conserve energy for offense.
--Very short wingspan and small reach even for SF standards. OK straight-up leaper. Nondescript lateral quickness and transition speed.
Comparison: Poor man's Corey Maggette
Rook stats (in 20 mins): 2-4 FGs, 0-0 3FGs, 5-6 FTs, 5 reb, 0 ast, 0 stl, 0 TO

4) Keith Benson
--Excellent at making defensive plays at 6'11". Very good rebounder.
--Excellent leaper for size both straight up and with a running start. Good wingspan. Ok lateral quickness and transition speed. Needs to add strength.
--Probably a poor offensive player. Borderline poor shooter with nonelusive mechanical construct. Nonexistent passing/ballhandling abilities.
--Questionable NBA-readiness. Has bust potential.
Comparison: Dan Gadzuric
Rook stats (in 20 mins): 1-2 FGs, 0-0 3FGs, 0-0 FTs, 6 reb, 0 ast, 2 blk, 2 TO

5) Kenneth Faried
--Elite at making defensive plays. Elite rebounder, top in this year's draft class. Strong intangibles.
--Undersized PF but good wingspan and pretty good reach. Pretty good leaper, pretty good conditioning. Solid lateral quickness/transition speed. OK Strength.
--Very poor offensive player. Zero range and incredibly nonelusive offensive construct. Nonexistent ballhandling/passing ability.
--Peaked. Questionable NBA-readiness. Has bust potential.
Comparison: Renaldo Balkman
Rook stats (in 20 mins): 1-3 FGs, 0-0 3FGs, 0-0 FTs, 8 reb, 0 ast, 2 stl, 2 blk, 1 TO

6) Trey Thompkins
--Peaked, NBA-ready. Quite good at making defensive plays without fouling at 6'10". Good rebounder.
--Probably a poor offensive player. Quite a good shooter but very nonelusive, mechanical construct. Very poor ballhandling/passing ability.
--Good wingspan and pretty good reach. Below average NBA athlete. Just OK strength. Nondescript lateral quickness/transition speed. Very poor conditioning.
Comparison: Poor man's Shareef Abdur-Rahim
Rook stats (in 20 mins): 2-4 FGs, 0-0 3FGs, 0-0 FTs, 4 reb, 0 ast, 1 stl, 1 blk, 1 TO

...And then we get to standard picks, who are expected to be there at #35. I really want to put 7) Chandler Parsons and 8) Chris Wright there, but there's a possibility we can get either one at #60. Parsons is very similar to Jan Vesely, but the better rebounding form, and he's projected to be drafted at least 35 picks lower. Wright is that early Trevor Ariza type athlete I was referring to, and very well could be a steal in that vein.

WE NEED A SHOOTER, AND GOOD COMPLEMENT TO TYREKE, CAN BE CROSSMATCHED:
9) Shelvin Mack
--Pretty good scorer and shooter. Good offensive construct, primarily a three point shooter but can slash the ball. Has combo guard passing/ballhandling ability.
--Decent rebounder for size (6'3"ish). Bad defensive playmaker. Conserves energy for offense.
--Very good leaping ability, both straight up and with a running start. Very good strength. Decent wingspan, but relatively poor reach. Nondescript lateral quickness and transition speed. OK conditioning.
--Middling NBA-readiness.
Comparison: Poor man's Ben Gordon
Rook stats (in 20 mins): 2-6 FGs, 2-5 3FGs, 2-2 FTs, 3 reb, 2 ast, 0 stl, 1 TO

10) Austin Freeman
--Peaked, NBA-ready. Good scorer and very good shooter. Mediocre offensive construct.
--Very good ballhandler, but ordinary court vision for size (6'4"ish).
--Nonexistent rebounder. Nonexistent defensive playmaker. Conserves energy for offense.
--Surprisingly great in lateral quickness. Good wingspan and OK reach. Ordinary NBA athlete. Terrible in transition. Very terrible conditioning.
Comparison: Lucious Harris
Rook stats (in 20 mins): 3-7 FGs, 2-3 3FGs, 1-1 FTs, 0 reb, 0 ast, 0 stl, 1 TO

11) Charles Jenkins
--Good scorer on the basis of very good shooting ability. Mediocre offensive construct. Preferred slasher.
--Very decent at making defensive plays for size (6'3") without fouling.
--Very good conditioning. Very strong. Ordinary NBA athlete and transition speed. Subpar lateral quickness. Decent wingspan, but relatively poor reach.
--Poor rebounder. SF type ballhandling/court vision for size.
--Peaked. Questionable NBA-readiness.
Comparison: Randy Foye
Rook stats (in 20 mins): 3-7 FGs, 1-2 3FGs, 0-0 FTs, 1 reb, 2 ast, 2 stl, 3 TO

12) Andrew Goudelock
--Peaked. Excellent scorer on the basis of top-notch shooting ability. Largely a three point bomber. Nonelusive, mechanical offensive game.
--Terrible passer/ballhandler for height (6'3"), passes like a SF. Nonexistent rebounder.
--Poor defensive playmaker who rarely fouls. Very much conserves his energy for offense.
--Decent in transition. OK straight up leaper. Nondescript lateral quickness. Very poor wingspan.
--Very little NBA readiness. Very poor competition. Has very high bust potential.
Comparison: Jodie Meeks
Rook stats (in 20 mins): 2-6 FGs, 2-4 3FGs, 0-0 FTs, 0 reb, 1 ast, 0 stl, 2 TO

AVOID:
13) DeAndre Liggins
--Highly unselfish player by default. Decent at making defensive plays.
--Long wingspan, good reach for a SG. Good conditioning. Subpar NBA athlete. Really struggles in transition.
--Very good offensive construct. Attempts to slash and shoot threes. However, struggles to create offense badly. Bad shooter. One of the worst offensive SGs in college.
--Awful rebounder for size (6'7").
--Virtually no NBA readiness. A great chance that he'll be a bust.
Comparison: Thabo Sefolosha
Rook stats (in 20 mins): 1-3 FGs, 0-1 3FGs, 0-2 FTs, 1 reb, 2 ast, 1 stl, 0 TO

 

[bajaden]

I like Iman Shumpert quite a bit, and I agree that he's probably a better offensive player than his stats showed. Good athlete, with the potential to be a good defender. He forced up a lot of shots, which didn't help his percentages, and he made bad ballhandling decisions. But all of his faults are correctable, and I think he has a lot of potential. If he could be drafted by a team, like the Spurs etc., where not much is expected of him in the short term, and he's given time to develop, he could turn into a hell of a basketball player.

Travis Leslie came out of highschool as one of the top ten players in the nation. And he could be one of the biggest sleepers in the entire draft. He had the misfortune to play for North Carolina St.. Sidney Lowe may have been a very good NBA basketball player, but he is one of the worse coaches at a major school that I've ever seen in my plus 50 years of watching college basketball. His team had a lot of talent, but played like a poorly coached highschool team. They looked confused, and played as if no one knew what their role was on the team. They got run off the court by teams much less talented than they were. By the third time I saw them play, I posted on my college thread that Sidney Lowe should be fired for his imitation of a head coach. Saying that his team was horrible, just doesn't describe how badly coached they were. And by the way, he was fired at seasons end.

Having said all that, I'm going to say that the jury is still way out on Travis Leslie. He did prove that he's a very good defender, and Tony Allen is a good comparison. But I think he has the potential to be a much better offensive player than he showed at N.C. ST.. He showed little or no growth in that area while there, but considering who the coach was, and how poorly everyone else on the team played, I think he deserves to be cut a little slack in that area.

By the way, you keep using a term, and I have no idea what it means. "Construct" ! Nice word, but I'm not sure exactly it means. This isn't a criticism. I'd really like to know. I've been watching basketball a long time, and in all my years, I've never heard anyone use that term in describing a basketball players abilities. I mean I could make an educated guess. But I'd rather hear your definition.

 

[bajaden]

I thought I'd take a look at how the top PG's in the draft did in the physical testing part of the combine. Take all this for what its worth. Which could be nothing. As its been pointed out, Kevin Durant didn't fare very well in this particular type of testing, and I think he turned out to be a pretty fair player.
Here's how I would put it. If your a top player coming out of college and basicly no one doubts your on court abilities, I don't think your going to get downgraded for a poor bench press or a poor agility drill result. On the other hand, if the perception of you is as a poor athlete, and you excell at these drills, then the results will probably help. In most cases, players usually turn in expected results. Such as in Kemba Walker's case. I think he surprised a little with his 39.5" max vertical, but I think anyone that watched him play knew he had good hops. He also did very well in the lateral agility drill turning in a 10.87 second time, and was excellent in the sprint with a time of 3.16 seconds. But once again, we knew he was fast. So no real surprises. I wish I had the results of the modified lateral agility drill with the lights that tests reflex action. Maybe they'll post them later.

Brandon Knight is another PG that we knew was a good athlete. And his results did nothing to dispell that. He had a 37.5" max vertical, which is a little better than I thought it would be, but not a big surprise. He turned in a little better time than Walker in the Lateral agility drill at 10.74 seconds, and had a top 5 time in the modified agility drill turning in a time of 5.27 seconds. He also turned in one of the top times in the sprint at 3.07 Seconds. So he did nothing to hurt himself, and if anything, may have showed he's an even better athlete that was advertized.

Jimmer Fredette is one of those that most likely helped himself. The biggest knock on him all year was that he wasn't a very good athlete and that he had poor lateral movement. So what does he do. He came in 3rd overall in the normal lateral agility drill turning in a time of 10.42 seconds, and then came in 2nd overall in the modified lateral agility drill turning in a time of 5.11 seconds. He also turned in a very respectful sprint time of 3.21 seconds. And while his max vertical won't make anyone stand up and take notice, its also respectable at 33". Does any of this mean he's suddenly a lockdown defender in the NBA? Of course not! But it does mean, on paper at least, that the physcial abilities are there to be much better than he showed in college. That might be enough to remove some of the doubt in a few GM's minds.

At this point, I'm not sure exactly what position Selby is going to play, so I've included him in this group. And athleticly he was as advertized, turning in an outstanding 42" max vertical. As with Walker, they didn't post his modified lateral agility dirll results, but in the normal one he turned in a time of 11.33 seconds. That doesn't sound as good as the others, but remember those guys were at the top, so its still a decent time. He also had a respectable sprint time of 3.20 seconds.

For those that didn't watch the combine and aren't familiar with the two agility drills, I'll try and explain them to you. For those that did watch and aren't interested, go read a book or something.
In the normal drill that they've used for years, picture a rectangle of, and I'm guessing, 10 feet by 20 feet. The player starts standing at one of the short ends of the rectangle. He can choose which side he wants to start at. When he breaks the light his time starts. He runs as quickly as he can to the top of the short end, then moves laterally across the long side, and then backpeddles down the short side, and then moves laterally back to his starting point. Upon reaching his original starting point, he then reverses the entire process untill he again reaches his original starting point.

The modified version is quite different, and I like it a lot because in the regular one, you start the clock yourself by crossing through the light, and, you know exactly where your going. In the modified one there are three lights. Think of one long line about 18 or 20 feet long. you have one light in the middle of that line and the other two lights are at either end of the line. The player stands on a line parallel to the line with the lights. He stands directly in front of the center green light and waits until one of the green lights on either side comes on. In this drill, the clock starts when the light comes on, and he has no idea when, or which light will come on, and simply has to react to it as fast as he can. When the light comes on, he has to move laterally toward that light, and past it breaking the light barrier, and then move laterally back across the entire space breaking the light barrier at the other end of the line.

I like this modified verison because I think reflex action is a very important part of being able to defend. One can be fast, but not quick, and quickness comes from reflex ability.

One final note, although Kemba posted very good numbers, lets remember that he didn't take part in any of the shooting drills, so he went into those physcial testing drills cold, with no warmup. Makes his numbers even more impressive. Kawhi Leonard suffered the same fate, but didn't fare as well.. Also, who would have thought that Chris Singleton would put up a faster sprint time than Kemba. The dude is a good athlete. Also, in the composite analysis of all the drills, Fredette came in as the 13th best athlete in the combine. Make of that what you want.. He didn't hurt himself though.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Travis Leslie came out of highschool as one of the top ten players in the nation. And he could be one of the biggest sleepers in the entire draft. He had the misfortune to play for North Carolina St. Sidney Lowe may have been a very good NBA basketball player, but he is one of the worse coaches at a major school that I've ever seen in my plus 50 years of watching college basketball.

Baja, you've got to put down the cervezas this afternoon! Travis Leslie went to Georgia, it's C.J. Leslie that goes to NC State.

 

[Arby's Roast Beef]

Baja, for construct it basically boils down to the ease with which you can score points at this level. It's proven that the easiest way to score points is by 1) getting to the line at a super great rate (usually big men, i.e. Biyombo, but also Jimmy Butler above), 2) pretty much becoming a virtual three point specialist (actually quite rare, but a good example is Ashton Gibbs, who takes roughly 80% of his shots as threes--most specialists in college take around 50-60% at most), or my absolute favorite, 3) getting to the line and taking three pointers at comparatively high rates (that's why I like Iman Shumpert, despite the shooting flaws...he's willing to optimize the entire floor and can shoot and slash off the dribble). A mid-range game is good and all, but the best defensive teams (such as the Spurs) dare you to shoot mid-range shots. They're statistically lower percentage shots than the other two, and that's why their defense has been tops for over a decade.

The last ones are the particularly special offensive players...they make scoring seem effortless. For all the flack he got on defense with us, Kevin Martin was able to put up points at ease because of his ability to take (and hit) threes and get to the line at will...and despite the mechanics, he's really a pure shooter. Others include Paul Pierce, Chauncey Billups, Danilo Gallinari. That's why I've been emphasizing this mutual exclusionist aspect to player's games in college...if you have it, it makes your scoring in the NBA that much easier. And that's why I'm so hopeful on Shumpert.

 

[bajaden]

Baja, you've got to put down the cervezas this afternoon! Travis Leslie went to Georgia, it's C.J. Leslie that goes to NC State.

Wow, pretty bad, I haven't even had a cervesa yet.. I just saw Leslie and ran with it. Thats what happens when your 69 year old and your relying on your memory. Actually I was talking about C.J. Leslie and not Travis, who he was talking about. And now that you've prodded my memory, I believe C.J. removed his name from the draft. However, everything I said about him and Sidney Lowe is accurate. Slight difference in players though, since one is a SG and the other is a SF/PF.

 

[bajaden]

Baja, for construct it basically boils down to the ease with which you can score points at this level. It's proven that the easiest way to score points is by 1) getting to the line at a super great rate (usually big men, i.e. Biyombo, but also Jimmy Butler above), 2) pretty much becoming a virtual three point specialist (actually quite rare, but a good example is Ashton Gibbs, who takes roughly 80% of his shots as threes--most specialists in college take around 50-60% at most), or my absolute favorite, 3) getting to the line and taking three pointers at comparatively high rates (that's why I like Iman Shumpert, despite the shooting flaws...he's willing to optimize the entire floor and can shoot and slash off the dribble). A mid-range game is good and all, but the best defensive teams (such as the Spurs) dare you to shoot mid-range shots. They're statistically lower percentage shots than the other two, and that's why their defense has been tops for over a decade.

The last ones are the particularly special offensive players...they make scoring seem effortless. For all the flack he got on defense with us, Kevin Martin was able to put up points at ease because of his ability to take (and hit) threes and get to the line at will...and despite the mechanics, he's really a pure shooter. Others include Paul Pierce, Chauncey Billups, Danilo Gallinari. That's why I've been emphasizing this mutual exclusionist aspect to player's games in college...if you have it, it makes your scoring in the NBA that much easier. And that's why I'm so hopeful on Shumpert.

Thanks for the explanation. I have my own way of rating players that gets so detailed that I even confuse myself at times, so I won't bother to go into the details, except it involves who the coach is, the type of system they play along with who else is on the team, and about a hundred other little details, some of which will end up being meaningless. But for example, how would you rate Jimmer Fredette's construct, when you have to take into consideration that in his case, the entire defense of every team he played against was focused on stopping him from scoring. When he also handled the ball around 75% of the time, and played the entire 40 minutes in about half the games he played. Meaning, that at the end of games, when toward the end of the year he missed more shots than normal, you knew he had to be playing on dead legs.

My point is, that there were times when scoring didn't come easy for him. However, he did fall into two of the catagorys you like. He got to the line a lot, and he shot a lot of 3 pointers. Do you take all those things into consideration when grading a player?

 

[ElRey]

, who would have thought that Chris Singleton would put up a faster sprint time than Kemba. The dude is a good athlete. Also, in the composite analysis of all the drills, Fredette came in as the 13th best athlete in the combine. Make of that what you want.. He didn't hurt himself though.

Singleton had a better sprint time than John Wall! Pretty impressive for a 6'9" guy. But of course in-game speed/athleticism is all that really matters.

 

[ElRey]

Jimmer Fredette is one of those that most likely helped himself. The biggest knock on him all year was that he wasn't a very good athlete and that he had poor lateral movement. So what does he do. He came in 3rd overall in the normal lateral agility drill turning in a time of 10.42 seconds, and then came in 2nd overall in the modified lateral agility drill turning in a time of 5.11 seconds. He also turned in a very respectful sprint time of 3.21 seconds. And while his max vertical won't make anyone stand up and take notice, its also respectable at 33". Does any of this mean he's suddenly a lockdown defender in the NBA? Of course not! But it does mean, on paper at least, that the physcial abilities are there to be much better than he showed in college. That might be enough to remove some of the doubt in a few GM's minds.

.

Bajaden, Fredette is compared to Stephon Curry so much that I wonder how his combines numbers compare with that of Curry. yeah yeah I know, It's definitely a slow offseason when we are hashing over combine measurements.

 

[hammystyle]

Interesting to look at the athletic results and see some some of the perceptions debunked. For instance Marshon Brooks, who led his conference and I believe the NCAA in scoring, was considered a late first round to early second round pick. One has to wonder why. True, he didn't get the national notoriety at Providence which wasn't on TV very much. I think I only got to see him play 4 or 5 times. Well, the biggest knock on him was that he wasn't very athletic.

I remember reading that about him, and it just didn't jell with what I was seeing. I even said in one of my write ups that he reminded me of Kobe Bryant in his body language, attitude, and style of play. I had to think about it a long time before I wrote that, knowing that some would think me crazy.

Well now the results are in and guess what. The kids a very good athlete. He recorded a 38.5 max vertical, a 11'7.5" max reach, 10.74 seconds in the lateral agility drill, and 3.09 seconds in the sprint drill.

To put that in prespective, lets compare him to someone that came in with the perception of being a very good athlete. Alex Burks. Burks recorded a 36' max vertical, a 11'7.5" max reach, 10.96 seconds in the lateral agility drill, and 3.17 seconds in the sprint drill.

Hey, I think you have to give the edge to Brooks. Burks is 6'6", and Brooks is just under 6'6". Brooks is definitely the better shooter, and shot 48.3% overall from the floor. Brooks has a wicked crossover dribble and handles the ball as well as anyone in the draft.

So whose the better prospect, and if its Burks, then why? While Brooks did play for Providence, a school that doesn't immediately leap to mind when thinking about college basketball. Providence does play in the Big East conference along with UCONN, Pittsburg etc. So one could argue Brooks went up against just as tough a competition as Burks did at Colorado.

Perception isn't always reality.. I would expect him to start rising on the draft board as more teams bring him in for workouts.

I think its a great point about perception vs reality. Also, Brooks 7'1" wingspan has got to be the widest in the NBA for a SG, and probably in the top 10 in wings.

Brooks, Hamilton, Charles Jenkins, Tobias Harris, and Klay Thompson are some of the prospects where I look at them, their body of work and their measurements and wonder why they are not right there with the top 10 prospects.

Compare Kemba to Jenkins. Compare Burks to Marshon Brooks and Klay Thompson. Compare Kawhi Leonard to Tobias Harris and Jordan Hamilton. I just don't think there's any separation and I feel like I could make pretty strong arguments on why the lesser rated guys are better.

 

[bajaden]

Bajaden, Fredette is compared to Stephon Curry so much that I wonder how his combines numbers compare with that of Curry. yeah yeah I know, It's definitely a slow offseason when we are hashing over combine measurements.

Funny you should ask. Curry actually did better at the combine as well. He had a 35.5" max vertical, an 11.07 second lateral agility drill, and ran a 3.28 second sprint. Compared to Fredette's 33" max vertical, an 10.42 second agility drill, and ran a 3.21 second sprint. So except for the agility drill, its pretty close. I guess just going by numbers, if Curry can play in the NBA, then so can Fredette.

 

[rainmaker]

Funny you should ask. Curry actually did better at the combine as well. He had a 35.5" max vertical, an 11.07 second lateral agility drill, and ran a 3.28 second sprint. Compared to Fredette's 33" max vertical, an 10.42 second agility drill, and ran a 3.21 second sprint. So except for the agility drill, its pretty close. I guess just going by numbers, if Curry can play in the NBA, then so can Fredette.

Baja, if we were to aquire a sf through free agency, then who do you think you'd want to draft? There are a few sf prospects we all like, but just for the sake of conversation, assume Petrie will use our cap space on an AK or Prince. Then we probably look at our backcourt come draft day, unless Kanter is there.

With Walker and Knight maybe availabe, and Fredette available, who do you want? I like Fredette a lot, and might take him over Walker. Do you think that is that much of a reach? Would you take Fredette if you knew we'd aquire a vet sf as a FA, and Dally resigns? Just for conversations sake...

 

[bajaden]

Baja, if we were to aquire a sf through free agency, then who do you think you'd want to draft? There are a few sf prospects we all like, but just for the sake of conversation, assume Petrie will use our cap space on an AK or Prince. Then we probably look at our backcourt come draft day, unless Kanter is there.

With Walker and Knight maybe availabe, and Fredette available, who do you want? I like Fredette a lot, and might take him over Walker. Do you think that is that much of a reach? Would you take Fredette if you knew we'd aquire a vet sf as a FA, and Dally resigns? Just for conversations sake...

Your probably asking the wrong person where Fredette is concerned. I've watched him play so much over the last two years, I feel like he belongs to me. So I'm definitely biased where he's concerned. But to answer your question from my biased point of view, I would say that if I could convince myself that he's athletic enough to play defense in the NBA, then yes, I would take him over Walker. Going into the draft the only obvious advantage Walker might have over Fredette is being a better defender. Other than that, I don't think there's any clear cut advantage. Walker has a very good crossover dribble, but so does Fredette. Both players have good mid-range games, and both players are capable finishers at the basket, with neither being outstanding at it.

But when it comes to size, and the ability to hit the 3 point shot, Fredette is the clear winner. Walker may be the better pick and roll player, but Fredette didn't get to run the pick and roll much due to being double teamed, even off the ball at times. But I have no doubt that he'd have no problem running it in the NBA. I think both guys are exciting players to watch. Fredette would have to stop pulling up 15 feet behind the 3 point line and shooting the ball, even if he did make a lot of those shots. Westphal's heart wouldn't take it. Besides, it wouldn't be necessary in the NBA where he wouldn't be the focus of the other teams defense.

I don't think anyone should underestimate Fredette's playmaking abilities either. He's a very good passer, and probably would have had more assists if he had better players around him. Remember, I'm biased!

 

[Arby's Roast Beef]

I'm just wondering....since we have Reke as sort of our Andre Iguodala-esque SG playing PG for large stretches, should we get an undersized SG shooting type with our 2nd rounder? I know we have Thornton and Jermaine Taylor, but one's an impending FA and the other is a team option player, so we might be able to afford one of these prototypes. There's pretty much only four choices--Shelvin Mack, Austin Freeman, Charles Jenkins and Andrew Goudelock. I'd pretty much omit the last two--I don't think Goudelock will even survive in this league, and Jenkins is also a bit questionable although if he can carve a mini threes-D role (possible) he might have some value at 6'3". Mack can really leap off the ground and can shoot and slash well for the league, with combo guard skills--think mini Ben Gordon IMO. If he falls to us we might have good value in our hands. Freeman can definitely score and handle the ball in this league, but he's a 6'4" pure SG with no athleticism and other defining qualities--but I think there can be a bit of Lucious Harris in him. Can be a surprise contributor, he's NBA ready too. I like those two, but as seen in my earlier post I have like 8 other people listed ahead of them, so we might not even get to touch them if we really try to emphasize our need in a SF or a big man (those players are also better as well). But it's worth a thought--not sure if Beno will be with us for the long haul, and we can always use a backup to fill that Pooh Jeter role--replace a mid-range abuser with a three-point abuser.

 

[bajaden]

I'm just wondering....since we have Reke as sort of our Andre Iguodala-esque SG playing PG for large stretches, should we get an undersized SG shooting type with our 2nd rounder? I know we have Thornton and Jermaine Taylor, but one's an impending FA and the other is a team option player, so we might be able to afford one of these prototypes. There's pretty much only four choices--Shelvin Mack, Austin Freeman, Charles Jenkins and Andrew Goudelock. I'd pretty much omit the last two--I don't think Goudelock will even survive in this league, and Jenkins is also a bit questionable although if he can carve a mini threes-D role (possible) he might have some value at 6'3". Mack can really leap off the ground and can shoot and slash well for the league, with combo guard skills--think mini Ben Gordon IMO. If he falls to us we might have good value in our hands. Freeman can definitely score and handle the ball in this league, but he's a 6'4" pure SG with no athleticism and other defining qualities--but I think there can be a bit of Lucious Harris in him. Can be a surprise contributor, he's NBA ready too. I like those two, but as seen in my earlier post I have like 8 other people listed ahead of them, so we might not even get to touch them if we really try to emphasize our need in a SF or a big man (those players are also better as well). But it's worth a thought--not sure if Beno will be with us for the long haul, and we can always use a backup to fill that Pooh Jeter role--replace a mid-range abuser with a three-point abuser.

Of the group you mention, I like Mack the most. For all the reasons you mentioned. I do think Goudelock will find a nitch in the NBA, simply because he's a great spot up shooter, and there's always a team that can use that. And he's a better athlete than people might think. But in the second round, I'm inclined to take the best possible athlete available, regardless of position. Of course its a real crapshoot trying to figure out who that might be. But if someone like Selby were to slide to us, which I doubt, in the second round, then you would be getting a steal. I do think someone like JaJaun Johnson might be a possiblilty.

 

[bajaden]

For those that didn't get a chance to see the combine, here's a glimpse, focused on Jimmer Fredette.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY2Xjc7IgXU&feature=player_embedded