With the 7th pick in the 2011 NBA Draft, the Sacramento Kings select .....
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I couldn't disagree with this more.. Cisco actually had a pretty good year last season... It just doesn't feel that way because he was starting AND playing out of position. He's a better 2 than a 3, IMO.. But coming off the bench he can do either. As much as I love Donte and Casspi, Cisco was the best option last year.. Or at least the solidest option as a starter to WIN games. I would have liked to see Casspi and Donte get extended minutes just to see what they could do, but with Westphals job on the line, I can understand why he wanted to start the veteran player as much as he could.
All this goes back to me not really wanted to draft a guard in the first round. That Udrih/Thonton/Cisco/Evans combination is really good. They can all do a little bit of everything. Very versatile.
All this goes back to me not really wanted to draft a guard in the first round. That Udrih/Thonton/Cisco/Evans combination is really good. They can all do a little bit of everything. Very versatile.
Not really. Fredette can Absolutely create his own shot. I would say Walker is a little bit better at it though. Walker seems to be able to use his speed to create a better shot, Jimmer tends to create a harder shot, but he so damn good at shooting difficult shots that it doesn't matter all that much.
Let's just say that on my list of things I worry about Jimmer being able to do in the NBA, that's way down the list.
Let's just say that on my list of things I worry about Jimmer being able to do in the NBA, that's way down the list.
I have to disagree with you. You can't just assume that Walker's shot will continue to improve or that Fredette's will regress (he has a great range, btw.) I've seen Fredette get to the line with ease. Walker will definitely struggle against better defenders in the NBA. Maybe we were watching different games, but I don't see any of the head and shoulders superiority you speak of. Fredette's agility test was better than Walker's, and his sprint was comparable. Jimmer is a stronger guy than Kemba as well, so the likelihood of him posting up would be greater than Walker's anyway.
Both were asked to carry the load for their teams, and both did so, although Fredette more consistently than Walker. Walker is currently riding the hot streak of winning the NCAA championship, which could have ended differently with end-of-game shots during most of their run.
My choice between the two would clearly be Jimmer.
Both were asked to carry the load for their teams, and both did so, although Fredette more consistently than Walker. Walker is currently riding the hot streak of winning the NCAA championship, which could have ended differently with end-of-game shots during most of their run.
My choice between the two would clearly be Jimmer.
Wow, you couldn't be more wrong. Obviously you know little or nothing about Fredette. If Walkers shot has improved, then why has his shooting percentage improved. It's been basicly static in his three years at UCONN. Fredette is an excellent ballhandler, and if you don't think Fredette can create his own shot, then I don't know what to say. I know you love Walker, but you don't have to disparage another player in order to point out Walkers abilities. I have Walker and Fredette rated fairly even, giving Walker the edge in floor speed and jumping ability. I give the edge to Fredette in shooting ability and size. Fredette posted quicker times than Walker in the lateral agility drills at the combine. For what thats worth.
Do I think Walkers shooting will improve at the NBA level? Sure I do!. He won't be forcing as many shots as he did in college. What bothered me the most, was his missing wide open 3 pointers. But the current facts are the facts. The dude shot 33% from the 3pt line this season. He shot 33% from the 3p line the season before. And he shot 29% his freshman year. Sorry, I don't see much improvement there. He did up his scoring his this season, but he took twice as many shots to do it.
Fredette spent at least half of each game trying to set up his teammates. He's a very good passer, and has excellent court vision. I see no problem with him playing next to Tyreke if that were to happen. He's not the gunner your trying to make him out to be. There were many games where he took only 3 or 4 shots in the first half. But in the second half he'd sometimes explode for 25 points or more, because they didn't have anyone else that could score.
I'm not trying to be a know it all. But I've probably seen Fredette play more over the last two years than any other player in the draft. I admit to be somewhat biased, and that I like him a lot, if for no other reason, that I had more fun watching him play than anyone else this year. But I do know his game inside and out. The giant question mark is whether he can play defense at the NBA level. I can only guess at that answer because of how he was used. But on the offensive side of the ball, I have no doubts at all.
Do I think Walkers shooting will improve at the NBA level? Sure I do!. He won't be forcing as many shots as he did in college. What bothered me the most, was his missing wide open 3 pointers. But the current facts are the facts. The dude shot 33% from the 3pt line this season. He shot 33% from the 3p line the season before. And he shot 29% his freshman year. Sorry, I don't see much improvement there. He did up his scoring his this season, but he took twice as many shots to do it.
Fredette spent at least half of each game trying to set up his teammates. He's a very good passer, and has excellent court vision. I see no problem with him playing next to Tyreke if that were to happen. He's not the gunner your trying to make him out to be. There were many games where he took only 3 or 4 shots in the first half. But in the second half he'd sometimes explode for 25 points or more, because they didn't have anyone else that could score.
I'm not trying to be a know it all. But I've probably seen Fredette play more over the last two years than any other player in the draft. I admit to be somewhat biased, and that I like him a lot, if for no other reason, that I had more fun watching him play than anyone else this year. But I do know his game inside and out. The giant question mark is whether he can play defense at the NBA level. I can only guess at that answer because of how he was used. But on the offensive side of the ball, I have no doubts at all.
Simply disagree here. Only thing I agree with you on here is Walker is the better ballhandler, but I wouldn't say by much. First, I don't know what makes you think Jimmer won't be able to get his shot off without a screen. He's excellent at pulling up off the dribble, with or without a screen. He can penetrate, and has a great mid range shot. Hell, with his shooting ability, a pumpfake will do wonders for him when the defender closes.
I'm not concerend with Jimmer getting his own shot. More importantly, that isn't what is important here. We're not looking for a pg who wants to go one on one, and excells at scoring in one on one situations. Why the hell would we? You think he'll just take shots from Reke, and not create for him? Based on what may I ask?
You want a pg creating jumpers for the wonderful spot up shooter known as Tyreke Evans? When Reke scores, he creates it himself, with the ball, or on a back cut feed from Cousins, which we'll see more of. Right now, Reke is not an off the ball player at all. Yes, it should improve, but you're worried about not having enough shots created for Reke while he's off the ball? You must be ignoring what type of a player Reke is.
It would more likely be the other way around, which is why Jimmer would fit very well with Reke. Yes Jimmer would set up the offense, and he's comfortable setting up an offense. But Reke would get the ball in better positions to operate one on one, with the floor spread and Jimmer helping keep the defense honest. Jimmer would play of Reke, as an exceptional spot up shooter. Not the other way around. You seriously think it would turn into Reke playing off Jimmer?
I think you're really selling Jimmer short, and I'd like to know what you're basing it on. What makes you think he can't create, can't run an offense, and is solely a gunner? Did you actually see the other 4 guys on the court with him at BYU? Who was he supposed to pass to? He scored out of pure need, just like Walker at UConn. I get pretty sick of people(not you specifically) slapping a label on a college pg as "someone who can't create", for scoring when they are surrounded by average to below average talent. Just who should have been shooting all those shots instead of Jimmer? Would options b, c, and d in the BYU offense have gotten them deep into the tourney?
I seriously don't understand your reasoning. You don't think putting a lights out shooter next to Reke, who is comfortable handling the ball and setting up the offense, and is impressing everyone with his athleticism the past couple weeks, is a good thing. In fact, it appears you think that's the worst possible player to put next to Reke.
I'm not concerend with Jimmer getting his own shot. More importantly, that isn't what is important here. We're not looking for a pg who wants to go one on one, and excells at scoring in one on one situations. Why the hell would we? You think he'll just take shots from Reke, and not create for him? Based on what may I ask?
You want a pg creating jumpers for the wonderful spot up shooter known as Tyreke Evans? When Reke scores, he creates it himself, with the ball, or on a back cut feed from Cousins, which we'll see more of. Right now, Reke is not an off the ball player at all. Yes, it should improve, but you're worried about not having enough shots created for Reke while he's off the ball? You must be ignoring what type of a player Reke is.
It would more likely be the other way around, which is why Jimmer would fit very well with Reke. Yes Jimmer would set up the offense, and he's comfortable setting up an offense. But Reke would get the ball in better positions to operate one on one, with the floor spread and Jimmer helping keep the defense honest. Jimmer would play of Reke, as an exceptional spot up shooter. Not the other way around. You seriously think it would turn into Reke playing off Jimmer?
I think you're really selling Jimmer short, and I'd like to know what you're basing it on. What makes you think he can't create, can't run an offense, and is solely a gunner? Did you actually see the other 4 guys on the court with him at BYU? Who was he supposed to pass to? He scored out of pure need, just like Walker at UConn. I get pretty sick of people(not you specifically) slapping a label on a college pg as "someone who can't create", for scoring when they are surrounded by average to below average talent. Just who should have been shooting all those shots instead of Jimmer? Would options b, c, and d in the BYU offense have gotten them deep into the tourney?
I seriously don't understand your reasoning. You don't think putting a lights out shooter next to Reke, who is comfortable handling the ball and setting up the offense, and is impressing everyone with his athleticism the past couple weeks, is a good thing. In fact, it appears you think that's the worst possible player to put next to Reke.
Just to add to what you just said. Walker averaged 7.6 freethrows a game last season and shot 81.9%. Which I think is pretty good. Fredette, ironicly averaged 7.6 freethrows a game last season, and shot 89.4%. So clearly, Walker has no great advantage there. My first choice is still Knight, but after that its Fredette and then Walker.
It appears to me that Petrie is looking for a very good shooter in the draft. Thats why I believe he would take Fredette over Walker. Its also why I don't think he would draft Leonard, who is a long way from being a comfortable shooter from the outside.
This doesn't mean I don't like Walker. He was my second most favorite player to watch this season from an intertainment point of view. Both guys are similar in what they went through and what they accomplished. Both guys had to take a lot of very contested shots being the total focus of the other teams defense. Fredette just made them at a higher percentage rate. It just that simple.
It appears to me that Petrie is looking for a very good shooter in the draft. Thats why I believe he would take Fredette over Walker. Its also why I don't think he would draft Leonard, who is a long way from being a comfortable shooter from the outside.
This doesn't mean I don't like Walker. He was my second most favorite player to watch this season from an intertainment point of view. Both guys are similar in what they went through and what they accomplished. Both guys had to take a lot of very contested shots being the total focus of the other teams defense. Fredette just made them at a higher percentage rate. It just that simple.
Where did I assume Jimmer's shot will regress? Is that in the invisible ink part of my post?
I will assume that Jimmer isn't going to get any quicker. And I will state flat-out that Walker is quicker than Jimmer. Those points are undeniable. I could care less about agility drills. Walker has the higher ceiling because of his superior athleticism. Could he be a bust because his shooting remains mediocre? Yep. He's in the same boat as Tyreke. But I don't see his shooting form worse than Tyreke's, that for sure. So I'll take a chance on Walker, just like with Tyreke. It is interesting to me that Walker actually had a slightly higher rebound/game stats than Tyreke in college and his steal/game stats were comparable. I think both of those stats are indications of their superior athleticism.
I will assume that Jimmer isn't going to get any quicker. And I will state flat-out that Walker is quicker than Jimmer. Those points are undeniable. I could care less about agility drills. Walker has the higher ceiling because of his superior athleticism. Could he be a bust because his shooting remains mediocre? Yep. He's in the same boat as Tyreke. But I don't see his shooting form worse than Tyreke's, that for sure. So I'll take a chance on Walker, just like with Tyreke. It is interesting to me that Walker actually had a slightly higher rebound/game stats than Tyreke in college and his steal/game stats were comparable. I think both of those stats are indications of their superior athleticism.
Actually if you watch the Kings workout video, Jimmer was getting his shot off just fine against much taller players without anyone setting screens for him. I don't see the major advantage of Walker over Fredette the way you see it Kingster. I think Jimmer would fit in better with the Tyreke and Thornton better than Walker. You need to spread the offense on the floor to keep the defense honest and for that you have some legit perimeter threats. Walker hasn't shown to be that sort of threat. Just saying he will improve his shot doesn't make it a given. From game one in the NBA, Jimmer is that guy. And that is a given.
Hold on, you want to state "flat-out" that Walker is quicker, but you won't use pretty unbiased combine tests? Game speed is pretty relative as well, if you want to use that argument. Jimmer can get to where he needs to in the lane and his body control is outstanding. But I guess Walker is .05 of a second faster than Fredette in the sprint, so there's that.
We don't need a mediocre shooter right now. Where will the spacing be when Tyreke drives? Ultimately, I think Jimmer is more NBA-ready now. I don't feel that Walker is there now, but he may be there later. The Kings don't need later. They need now.
Look, you're not selling me on Walker. I'm not selling you on Jimmer. That's fine. We'll agree to disagree on this one.
We don't need a mediocre shooter right now. Where will the spacing be when Tyreke drives? Ultimately, I think Jimmer is more NBA-ready now. I don't feel that Walker is there now, but he may be there later. The Kings don't need later. They need now.
Look, you're not selling me on Walker. I'm not selling you on Jimmer. That's fine. We'll agree to disagree on this one.
So Walker is quicker than Fredette! So what? He's probably quicker than Chris Paul, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, and Kyrie Irving in this draft. Again, so what? Your throwing athleticism out there as though its a skill. Its a tool, and thats all it is. I could give you all the greatest tools in the world and if you don't know how to use them, you couldn't build diddly squat. As I've said before, the NBA is littered with athletic players that ended up being busts.
Don't get me wrong, I love athletic players. But only if they work their butts off to get better and develop their skills. And I have no reason to believe that Walker won't do that. But I'll tell you this, Fredette is a lot quicker than you think he is. And I'm not confusing quickness with fast. The two can be compatable in the same player, but they can also be exclusive of one another. Timmy Hardaway wasn't the most gifted athlete in the world, and no one would accuse him of being the fastest PG up an down the court. But the dude could beat anyone off the dribble.
Both Fredette and Walker have that kind of quickness. You want to argue that Walker might be a tad quicker. Fine, but so what, as long as both players can get their shots off it doesn't matter. Even if Walker only improves his shot a couple of percentage points, he's far from ever being a bust. I guess our main disagreement is over who is the better fit. I think Fredette is, and you think Walker is. I think both guys can be good PG's in the league. I just happen to think that Fredette is more natural shooter than Walker, and always will be. He has tremendous range and shoots the ball almost effortlessly. Walkers shot from the college three was far from effortless, and the NBA three won't make it any easier. Yes, I do think he'll get better, but I'd be surprised if he ever shot in the 40% range. Where I think Fredette has the capability of easily shooting in that range. The Kings need a shooter, and a playmaker. I just happen to think Fredette comes closer to that description than Walker.
Don't get me wrong, I love athletic players. But only if they work their butts off to get better and develop their skills. And I have no reason to believe that Walker won't do that. But I'll tell you this, Fredette is a lot quicker than you think he is. And I'm not confusing quickness with fast. The two can be compatable in the same player, but they can also be exclusive of one another. Timmy Hardaway wasn't the most gifted athlete in the world, and no one would accuse him of being the fastest PG up an down the court. But the dude could beat anyone off the dribble.
Both Fredette and Walker have that kind of quickness. You want to argue that Walker might be a tad quicker. Fine, but so what, as long as both players can get their shots off it doesn't matter. Even if Walker only improves his shot a couple of percentage points, he's far from ever being a bust. I guess our main disagreement is over who is the better fit. I think Fredette is, and you think Walker is. I think both guys can be good PG's in the league. I just happen to think that Fredette is more natural shooter than Walker, and always will be. He has tremendous range and shoots the ball almost effortlessly. Walkers shot from the college three was far from effortless, and the NBA three won't make it any easier. Yes, I do think he'll get better, but I'd be surprised if he ever shot in the 40% range. Where I think Fredette has the capability of easily shooting in that range. The Kings need a shooter, and a playmaker. I just happen to think Fredette comes closer to that description than Walker.
Hate to interject in a very fine discussion but: what is athleticism? I think we all kinda know but if what I think everybody thinks when the word "athleticism" is thrown out there, I conclude that Larry Bird was not athletic.
Other definitional clarifications: I define quickness as that skill that can break you away from your defender and speed as the skill that gets you down the court on a fast break. Walker and Fredette are quick. Peja is not.
Anyway, Jimmer and Kemba have cool names.
Other definitional clarifications: I define quickness as that skill that can break you away from your defender and speed as the skill that gets you down the court on a fast break. Walker and Fredette are quick. Peja is not.
Anyway, Jimmer and Kemba have cool names.
The names are the most important part. Harder to fail with names like that..
As for athleticism, I really don't want to get into that. Everyone has their own opinion, and in truth, it can include so many different aspects that we could talk till were blue in the face, and not cover everything. For example, we would all agree that Oscar Robertson was a very good athlete. So is that, along with a lot of work, that made him such a great point guard. Certainly part of it. But he also was blessed with outsanding peripheral vision. They said it was so good that he could almost see behind him. Is that part of athleticism? Duane Causewell was an very good athlete. Ran the floor extremely well, and had good hops. So why wasn't he a better player? Turns out he had one of the lowest scores in the history of the NBA at the time in the hand/eye coordination test.
Some people can run fast, but can't jump very high. Does that make them a bad athlete? Mutombo looked great on defense, while blocking shots etc. But on the offensive side of the ball, he looked mechanical and almost uncoordinated at times. So was he a good athlete or not. Some people may not run very fast, or jump very high, but they may have excellent lateral quickness. Anyway, you see what I mean. I contend that just about every player in the NBA is a good athlete. But like everything else, its relative. When compared against their peers, then some appear to be poor athletes. I always try to remind people that the 12 man on every bench in the NBA was probably the star of his college team.
As far as quickness goes. A quarterhorse is quick, and a racehorse is fast. The difference is that the quarterhorse is up to top speed with one of two steps, and it takes the race horse 7 or 8 steps to get up to top speed. Same thing with running backs in the NFL. Almost all the great backs were more quick than fast. They were quicker into the hole. Most of them you could run them down from behind, but they already had their 15 or 20 yards by then.
As for athleticism, I really don't want to get into that. Everyone has their own opinion, and in truth, it can include so many different aspects that we could talk till were blue in the face, and not cover everything. For example, we would all agree that Oscar Robertson was a very good athlete. So is that, along with a lot of work, that made him such a great point guard. Certainly part of it. But he also was blessed with outsanding peripheral vision. They said it was so good that he could almost see behind him. Is that part of athleticism? Duane Causewell was an very good athlete. Ran the floor extremely well, and had good hops. So why wasn't he a better player? Turns out he had one of the lowest scores in the history of the NBA at the time in the hand/eye coordination test.
Some people can run fast, but can't jump very high. Does that make them a bad athlete? Mutombo looked great on defense, while blocking shots etc. But on the offensive side of the ball, he looked mechanical and almost uncoordinated at times. So was he a good athlete or not. Some people may not run very fast, or jump very high, but they may have excellent lateral quickness. Anyway, you see what I mean. I contend that just about every player in the NBA is a good athlete. But like everything else, its relative. When compared against their peers, then some appear to be poor athletes. I always try to remind people that the 12 man on every bench in the NBA was probably the star of his college team.
As far as quickness goes. A quarterhorse is quick, and a racehorse is fast. The difference is that the quarterhorse is up to top speed with one of two steps, and it takes the race horse 7 or 8 steps to get up to top speed. Same thing with running backs in the NFL. Almost all the great backs were more quick than fast. They were quicker into the hole. Most of them you could run them down from behind, but they already had their 15 or 20 yards by then.
bajaden, I understand completely. Is shooting well an "athletic" skill? Frank Gore is quick and not so fast, eh? It sounds like you were defining him. Chuck Foreman ran a 4.7 sec 40 yard dash yet was "quick." Same result as you describe. They get past the linebackers before anyone has time to react.
Funny how 2 of the most athletic wings this game has ever seen are down 3-2 to the tall, lanky, unathletic euro.
Maybe if Bird had been more athletic, he'd have had a HOF career.
Too bad Nash wasn't more athletic either. Maybe then he could have been able to play at the level of the super athletic Marbury or Steve Francis.
Maybe of Stockton, Mark Jackson, Billups, and DWill, to name a few, were a little more athletic, and tested well at the draft combine, they might have gone on to successful nba careers.
For every D Rose, there's 100's of others who could jump just as high, and sprint the court just as fast, but couldn't use there athleticism to further, or even benefit their careers.
Maybe if Bird had been more athletic, he'd have had a HOF career.
Too bad Nash wasn't more athletic either. Maybe then he could have been able to play at the level of the super athletic Marbury or Steve Francis.
Maybe of Stockton, Mark Jackson, Billups, and DWill, to name a few, were a little more athletic, and tested well at the draft combine, they might have gone on to successful nba careers.
For every D Rose, there's 100's of others who could jump just as high, and sprint the court just as fast, but couldn't use there athleticism to further, or even benefit their careers.
The best shooters in nba history have been for the most part, one of the more unathletic guys when they step on the court. Ray Allen is the only one who was real athletic, but as we all can see his shot, and success, obviously had nothing to do with athleticism. Dirk, Bird, Peja, R Miller, and Mullin were all extremely unathletic by nba standards.
Sorry to take the discussion back a step, but I'm watching video of the workout with Jimmer shooting the ball. It goes in every time and the shot is smooth and impressive. I'm a big fan of shooters and we desperately need a few. However, am I the only one noticing how much hang time he has on his shot and how slow the release is? That is alarming to me, because the space between you and the defender in the NBA is going to shrink significantly from college. I'm not judging athleticism or quickness or anything like that. Just a simple shot release time. It doesn't pass the eyeball test for a guy who can create on his own shot. It looks like he'll have to come off screens to me as well. If we draft him, I wouldn't mind being wrong about this, but I don't think I am.
Baja will be best equipped to answer this (and I'm sure he already has) but you really don't need to be worried about Jimmer creating his own shot. His release isn't slow at all. And he has a very good crossover which he uses to create space, as well as a variety of other moves. I have absolutely zero worries about Jimmer being able to get his shot off in the NBA. I don't think scouts even state that as a possible weakness.
I read most of the comments and I just disagree. Not sure his workout partners in the video are a true representation of what he'll face in the NBA to begin with. With his slow release, it just takes that much more space to shoot and just that much more effort to create that space. The most effective scorers have lightning quick releases. Even if you cross someone over, that close time of the defender is going to be so much faster in the NBA. He can be very valuable in the NBA with how good a shooter he is. However, I think his star potential is extremely limited.
People said that Curry was too small and not athletic enough to be effective in the NBA. I argued against this constantly based on the fact that Curry was getting his shot off so quick. I want Jimmer to be able to do the same thing. I just don't see it though.
People said that Curry was too small and not athletic enough to be effective in the NBA. I argued against this constantly based on the fact that Curry was getting his shot off so quick. I want Jimmer to be able to do the same thing. I just don't see it though.
The guys in the video are all about 5 inches taller than him and he had no problem getting his shot off. And those guys are NBA level athletes (but maybe not players). If you're looking for a perennial all-star, then ya, maybe Jimmer's not your guy. But as a lights out shooter and someone who can handle the ball and pass, he's going to be valuable. I wasn't aware you were looking for a superstar. There are no guys without faults at 7. But even so, I really don't think Fredette has a slow release at all. Steph Curry has an extremely quick release, and he's obviously a great shooter. I was a defender of his too. But I do believe Fredette won't have a problem getting his shot off.
Sorry if this seems disjointed or repetitive. It's almost 2:30 AM here.
Sorry if this seems disjointed or repetitive. It's almost 2:30 AM here.
It's so hard to compare most players coming out of college with any seasoned NBA pro. Fredette might be similar to Curry or Price as you mention. He might even be similar to Kevin Johnson of all people. About same height and weight, although KJ was bit of a leaper though not really known for it. KJ was among highest FT% leaders every year - like Jimmer. Both had full collegiate careers with KJ averaging 17pts and 5 assists vs Fredette 29pts and 4 assists their final years at Cal and BYU respectively, before going on to the NBA. Sure KJ is more athletic but that's not saying Jimmer is not athletic or that he does not do things at a very high level of efficiency and productivity.