Would you.... (MEM/SAC)
- Thread starter Bricklayer
- Start date
Obviously it wouldn't be Gasol for Miller straight up. And, like I said, Gasol isn't really impressive to me, regardless of his numbers, so if the only way to get him is to give up Martin+1st rounder, then I'd pass.
Secondly, the point is that, if Conley doesn't pan out and the deal winds up being essentially Martin for Gasol, then, again, that's not a good deal for us, in my opinion. Gasol isn't that good.
Secondly, the point is that, if Conley doesn't pan out and the deal winds up being essentially Martin for Gasol, then, again, that's not a good deal for us, in my opinion. Gasol isn't that good.
You don't think that Gasol for Martin straight up is a good deal for us? Exactly how good do you think Martin is going to become? Because I'm inclined to believe that Gasol is not only better than Martin, but substantially easier to build a winning team around.
I mean, I can understand the reticence to trade Martin for Gasol if you think he's going to take the next step and go from one-dimensional scorer to superstar, but sans that, I can't grok reluctance to do this deal. It's probably fair to say that I don't rate Kevin Martin as high on the BAH GAWD scale as the average Kings Fan, but I'd probably say that he's right on par with a guy like Jason Richardson, whom I'd trade for Gasol before the ink was dry. Hell, at the peak of his potential, I see Martin averaging around 25-26pts, 5-6rebs and 3-4asts... Those are Michael Redd numbers, and I'd trade Redd for Gasol, too.
I mean, I can understand the reticence to trade Martin for Gasol if you think he's going to take the next step and go from one-dimensional scorer to superstar, but sans that, I can't grok reluctance to do this deal. It's probably fair to say that I don't rate Kevin Martin as high on the BAH GAWD scale as the average Kings Fan, but I'd probably say that he's right on par with a guy like Jason Richardson, whom I'd trade for Gasol before the ink was dry. Hell, at the peak of his potential, I see Martin averaging around 25-26pts, 5-6rebs and 3-4asts... Those are Michael Redd numbers, and I'd trade Redd for Gasol, too.
I do agree with Mr. S£im Citrus on the fact that Martin is a unidensional scorer, a very good one though, and you'll have a tough time trying to build a championship caliber team around him. He's not a franchise player.
But imo Gasol ain't one neither...
I wouldn't be very happy to see Gasol in a Kings uniform because i don't like to see him play but sacramento would be the winning team in a Martin-Gasol trade.
Do you really think Kevin is a Jason Richardson type of player ?
He's way better than him, he's more like Rip Hamilton
But imo Gasol ain't one neither...
I wouldn't be very happy to see Gasol in a Kings uniform because i don't like to see him play but sacramento would be the winning team in a Martin-Gasol trade.
Do you really think Kevin is a Jason Richardson type of player ?
He's way better than him, he's more like Rip Hamilton
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Somebody's going to have to explain this to me, because I'm not seeing it.
If you want to say that Martin is having a better season than Richardson, then that's certainly fair. But Richardson is, in my opinion, a much more well-rounded player than Martin: a better rebounder (averaged nearly seven a game a few years ago), a better ball handler and, for whatever it's worth, better defensively. Hell, Martin is having the best season of his career right now, and beyond the higher scoring average, he's not really doing anything better than Richardson, who is arguably having one of the worst seasons of his career.
I don't consider Richardson to be a star, but I hesitate to say that Martin is "way" better than him; I'm not even convinced that Martin is at all better than him.
If you want to say that Martin is having a better season than Richardson, then that's certainly fair. But Richardson is, in my opinion, a much more well-rounded player than Martin: a better rebounder (averaged nearly seven a game a few years ago), a better ball handler and, for whatever it's worth, better defensively. Hell, Martin is having the best season of his career right now, and beyond the higher scoring average, he's not really doing anything better than Richardson, who is arguably having one of the worst seasons of his career.
I don't consider Richardson to be a star, but I hesitate to say that Martin is "way" better than him; I'm not even convinced that Martin is at all better than him.
Intriguing, but I will say no to this. The main reason being is that I am not crazy about Gasol and Miller together on the front line. I mean, its not bad. I am just not sure that I would give up Kmart in favor of a Gasol - Miller front line.
From the Memphis side, they sure would be a fun team to watch.
From the Memphis side, they sure would be a fun team to watch.
Ok Martin is better than Richardson but not way better.
I'm not sure Richardson has so good ball handling skills and what makes me sick when i see him play is his low BBall IQ
He seems to love making a large part of his jumpers harder than they really are. I mean sometimes when he's guarded by a guy who can't challenge his shot (let's say someone like Kyle Korver) he takes a very tough fade away jumper while a straigh jump shot would be enough and a lot easier to convert (i'm exaggerating but not that much, really).
I know he's having an off year and i don't judge him on this year. He's not an intelligent player offensively while Kmart will find so many ways to be effective. In fact Richardson might be a better baller but he's not playing at the level his talent should make him play if you know what i mean.
So yeah he's a better rebounder, defender but Martin is much more effective on the other end.
And the fact that Martin is having is best season of his carrer doesn't mean anything since next season will also be his best.
I'm not sure Richardson has so good ball handling skills and what makes me sick when i see him play is his low BBall IQ
He seems to love making a large part of his jumpers harder than they really are. I mean sometimes when he's guarded by a guy who can't challenge his shot (let's say someone like Kyle Korver) he takes a very tough fade away jumper while a straigh jump shot would be enough and a lot easier to convert (i'm exaggerating but not that much, really).
I know he's having an off year and i don't judge him on this year. He's not an intelligent player offensively while Kmart will find so many ways to be effective. In fact Richardson might be a better baller but he's not playing at the level his talent should make him play if you know what i mean.
So yeah he's a better rebounder, defender but Martin is much more effective on the other end.
And the fact that Martin is having is best season of his carrer doesn't mean anything since next season will also be his best.
I'm not a Pau fan, but I'd do it because we're getting better value back. Even if Conley doesn't pan out, Gasol's numbers are better than Martins - better FG%, rebounder, blocks, assists. I'm not comparing them directly, but the numbers we get back are better. I still like Bibby, but Conley is younger and an intriguing prospect for the future.
That team would be "playoff quality in the making", but I wouldn't be sold long term. I don't know if Artest will be around next season, and that would really hurt. Salmons/Garcia/Gasol wouldn't be as good. In comparison to Gasol, Martin would be less likely to want out if the team sucks. Also there would be no National team duties to worry about with Martin.
That team would be "playoff quality in the making", but I wouldn't be sold long term. I don't know if Artest will be around next season, and that would really hurt. Salmons/Garcia/Gasol wouldn't be as good. In comparison to Gasol, Martin would be less likely to want out if the team sucks. Also there would be no National team duties to worry about with Martin.
Yikes, I think you are "one siding" this trade too much. What don't you like about Gasol to reduce his value so much. NOT counting this year. He seems to be sulking accordnig to a lot of the Memphis fans, because he has played on a crappy team for quite some time. When they were to get better they turned around and got crappy again.
I'm not as high on Martin as a lot of other people are either. I like him and I think he is going to get better, but I also see him as a Michael Redd-type player, not a superstar that you build a contender around. (As a side note, in the Artest interview that was posted last week, the comment was made that Martin doesn't have the type of attitude that is necessary for a superstar to have; I concur.)
The problem I have is that I'm not too impressed with Pau Gasol. I guess trading small for big should be reason enough to do this deal, and if it were another big man, I'd probably feel differently. I don't think Gasol is good enough, big enough, man enough to be the centerpiece of a good team, especially not in the Western conference. He's older than Martin, costs a lot more, and isn't quite what we need at the position, if you ask me.
Pre-trade
Bibby/Beno
Martin/Salmons
Artest/Salmons
Moore/?
Miller/Hawes
Post-trade
Beno/Conley
Salmons/Cisco
Artest/Cisco
Gasol/Moore
Miller/Hawes
I'm probably not looking at the whole picture, and this, of course doesn't take into account any potential moves that would be made after the trade or after this season, but that move doesn't make us better, in my opinion. I think we could do better than Martin for Gasol. Again, that's largely based on my lack of enthusiasm about Gasol's game.
The problem I have is that I'm not too impressed with Pau Gasol. I guess trading small for big should be reason enough to do this deal, and if it were another big man, I'd probably feel differently. I don't think Gasol is good enough, big enough, man enough to be the centerpiece of a good team, especially not in the Western conference. He's older than Martin, costs a lot more, and isn't quite what we need at the position, if you ask me.
Pre-trade
Bibby/Beno
Martin/Salmons
Artest/Salmons
Moore/?
Miller/Hawes
Post-trade
Beno/Conley
Salmons/Cisco
Artest/Cisco
Gasol/Moore
Miller/Hawes
I'm probably not looking at the whole picture, and this, of course doesn't take into account any potential moves that would be made after the trade or after this season, but that move doesn't make us better, in my opinion. I think we could do better than Martin for Gasol. Again, that's largely based on my lack of enthusiasm about Gasol's game.
I bet you watch Gasol more than I have over the past couple of seasons. I paid a lot of attention to the Grizzlies when Jason Williams was there, and I even had a chance to see Gasol play in person a couple of times. I just never really felt like he had the type of game or strength to be a centerpiece on a championship team.
He does have skills and is a decent shot blocker. He's not a terribly good rebounder or man defender. If this were 2004 and we had a chance to get Gasol for a complement of roleplayers, I'd say go head.
He does have skills and is a decent shot blocker. He's not a terribly good rebounder or man defender. If this were 2004 and we had a chance to get Gasol for a complement of roleplayers, I'd say go head.
The Kings would definnitely do that deal. Unfortunately, I don't see any reason Memphis does it. Individually I think Gasol is worth more than Martin, and Conley is worth more than Bibby.
Its arguable, but Gasol being a young, proven, big, trumps Martin's present and future upside. Bibby I just don't see being worth much at all to a team like Memphis. Conley may bot be ready yet, but he's young, cheap and was the 4th pick in a deep draft last year. You never know, but from watching him last year I think he'll be a really good pro.
Its arguable, but Gasol being a young, proven, big, trumps Martin's present and future upside. Bibby I just don't see being worth much at all to a team like Memphis. Conley may bot be ready yet, but he's young, cheap and was the 4th pick in a deep draft last year. You never know, but from watching him last year I think he'll be a really good pro.
Thinking about the Peja situation again.. Remember back in 02 or 01 when I was saying trade Peja for Marion?
Peja was such a one dimentional player, although a good one! Peja had that great year because people were passing the ball to him. Divac was creating a LOT of Peja's shots because he woul constantly go low, than pass to Peja out high. It was constant, and that is where about 8 points a game came from. Once Divac was gone we saw Peja struggle.. But yah, Marion for Peja.. I remember that thread
How about we do a blockbuster trade, cut salaries and totally reshape a couple of teams in the process? (By the way, this would never happen, and if it did, a lot of people would be up in arms. But I think it would put us in a better position next season and the season after to be back in the playoffs as a young, improving team.) Feel free to get on me about it.
Trade #1:
Memphis
Outgoing: Pau Gasol, Mike Miller, Casey Jacobsen, Hakim Warrick, Mike Conley
Incoming: Kevin Martin, Mikki Moore, Udonis Haslem, Daequan Cook, Quincy Douby, Smush Parker, Dorrell Wright
Miami
Outgoing: Daequan Cook, Dorell Wright, Jason Williams, Ricky Davis, Udonis Haslem, Smush Parker
Incoming: Mike Bibby, Mike Miller, Hakim Warrick, Kenny Thomas, Casey Jacobsen
Sacramento
Outgoing: Mikki Moore, Kevin Martin, Quincy Douby, Mike Bibby, Kenny Thomas
Incoming: Pau Gasol, Mike Conley, Jason Williams(exp), Ricky Davis(exp)
(Memphis gets Martin, Haslem, and a couple of young players with potential in Cook and Wright; Miami gets Bibby, Warrick and Miller, but has to eat KT's contract; Sac gets rid of contracts, gets some expiring contracts, and gets Pau Gasol.)
Trade #2:
Los Angeles Lakers
Outgoing: Kwame Brown, Coby Karl
Incoming: Brad Miller
Sacramento
Outgoing: Brad Miller
Incoming: Kwame Brown (exp), Coby Karl
(Lakers get the big man for the triangle offense, to go along with Bynum in the frontcourt; Sac sheds Miller's contract, gets an expiring and a youngster.)
Trade #3 (this trade works, even though RealGM doesn't seem to think so):
Milwaukee
Outgoing: Desmond Mason, Michael Ruffin
Incoming: Ron Artest
Sacramento
Outgoing: Ron Artest
Incoming: Desmond Mason, Michael Ruffin (exp)
(Bucks get defensive stopper and an NBA presence to complement Redd and their young big men; Sac gets rid of Artest, which is necessary after bringing in Williams and Davis, and gets defensive big man and athletic swingman.)
Our new lineup for this season:
PG: Beno Udrih (exp), Jason Williams (exp), Mike Conley
SG: John Salmons, Coby Karl (exp), Dahntay Jones (exp)
SF: Ricky Davis (exp), Desmond Mason
PF: Pau Gasol, Justin Williams (exp), Michael Ruffin (exp)
C: Kwame Brown (exp), Spenser Hawes
Our payroll after this season: $49-54 million (2008-09 salary cap approx $57 millon)
Gasol (2 years remaining), $15.1 million
SAR (1 year remaining), $6.2 million
Mason (exp), $5.3 million
Salmons (1 year remaining), $5.1 million
Hawes (3 years remaining), $2.2 million
Udrih (3 years remaining), resigned, $4-6 million
Karl (3 years remaining), resigned, $2-3 million
Draft picks, $4-6 million
Fillers, $5 million
(By the way, this would never happen, and if it did, a lot of people would be up in arms. But I think it would put us in a better position next season and the season after to be back in the playoffs as a young, improving team.) Feel free to get on me about it.Trade #1:
Memphis
Outgoing: Pau Gasol, Mike Miller, Casey Jacobsen, Hakim Warrick, Mike Conley
Incoming: Kevin Martin, Mikki Moore, Udonis Haslem, Daequan Cook, Quincy Douby, Smush Parker, Dorrell Wright
Miami
Outgoing: Daequan Cook, Dorell Wright, Jason Williams, Ricky Davis, Udonis Haslem, Smush Parker
Incoming: Mike Bibby, Mike Miller, Hakim Warrick, Kenny Thomas, Casey Jacobsen
Sacramento
Outgoing: Mikki Moore, Kevin Martin, Quincy Douby, Mike Bibby, Kenny Thomas
Incoming: Pau Gasol, Mike Conley, Jason Williams(exp), Ricky Davis(exp)
(Memphis gets Martin, Haslem, and a couple of young players with potential in Cook and Wright; Miami gets Bibby, Warrick and Miller, but has to eat KT's contract; Sac gets rid of contracts, gets some expiring contracts, and gets Pau Gasol.)
Trade #2:
Los Angeles Lakers
Outgoing: Kwame Brown, Coby Karl
Incoming: Brad Miller
Sacramento
Outgoing: Brad Miller
Incoming: Kwame Brown (exp), Coby Karl
(Lakers get the big man for the triangle offense, to go along with Bynum in the frontcourt; Sac sheds Miller's contract, gets an expiring and a youngster.)
Trade #3 (this trade works, even though RealGM doesn't seem to think so):
Milwaukee
Outgoing: Desmond Mason, Michael Ruffin
Incoming: Ron Artest
Sacramento
Outgoing: Ron Artest
Incoming: Desmond Mason, Michael Ruffin (exp)
(Bucks get defensive stopper and an NBA presence to complement Redd and their young big men; Sac gets rid of Artest, which is necessary after bringing in Williams and Davis, and gets defensive big man and athletic swingman.)
Our new lineup for this season:
PG: Beno Udrih (exp), Jason Williams (exp), Mike Conley
SG: John Salmons, Coby Karl (exp), Dahntay Jones (exp)
SF: Ricky Davis (exp), Desmond Mason
PF: Pau Gasol, Justin Williams (exp), Michael Ruffin (exp)
C: Kwame Brown (exp), Spenser Hawes
Our payroll after this season: $49-54 million (2008-09 salary cap approx $57 millon)
Gasol (2 years remaining), $15.1 million
SAR (1 year remaining), $6.2 million
Mason (exp), $5.3 million
Salmons (1 year remaining), $5.1 million
Hawes (3 years remaining), $2.2 million
Udrih (3 years remaining), resigned, $4-6 million
Karl (3 years remaining), resigned, $2-3 million
Draft picks, $4-6 million
Fillers, $5 million
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Alright, that mega-blockbuster trade makes my head hurt. I'm not sure what FSM stands for, unless you are talking about pasta.
As for the original proposal, I think its worth some serious consideration. Our frontline would be considerably better, and we'd have a lot of potential in Conley. Assuming Martin's performance this year is the best we could expect from him, getting Gasol for Martin is realistically a wash. You are getting a lower first tier big man for a lower first tier guard. Big men are a lot harder to find. Conley is still very young and should realistically still be in college. A couple years should show what he is capable of. Losing Bibby really isnt that big of a deal. He is extremely overpaid, coming off of two injury reduced seasons, and really hurts us cap wise. Down the road, we would be in a much better situation cap-wise and would have a serious chance to contend again.
As for the original proposal, I think its worth some serious consideration. Our frontline would be considerably better, and we'd have a lot of potential in Conley. Assuming Martin's performance this year is the best we could expect from him, getting Gasol for Martin is realistically a wash. You are getting a lower first tier big man for a lower first tier guard. Big men are a lot harder to find. Conley is still very young and should realistically still be in college. A couple years should show what he is capable of. Losing Bibby really isnt that big of a deal. He is extremely overpaid, coming off of two injury reduced seasons, and really hurts us cap wise. Down the road, we would be in a much better situation cap-wise and would have a serious chance to contend again.
