Big Cuz 15
All-Star
Last offseason if we resigned Daly, drafted Leonard, resigned mt, kept casspi?
No Hayes, hickson, outlaw, jimmer or salmons
No Hayes, hickson, outlaw, jimmer or salmons
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would the kings have made the playoffs if....
- Thread starter Big Cuz 15
- Start date
kingjatt
Starter
Kept beno not got salmons then maybe, will never really know.
KingdomeCome
G-League
Maloofs sold the team to an actual rich guy, hired Greg Popvich, actually spent money on free agency... (anything else?)
MassachusettsKingsFan
All-Star
I don't think that's a playoff team. Closer, but no.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I assume there we also get to keep Beno.
So we swap Hayes, Hickson, Outlaw, Jimmer, & Salmons for Dalembert, Beno, Leonard & Casspi, while also gaining the experience of those guys having played together with us for an extra year?
I think we get close. Still too young to make it in all liklihood, but I think we could have made a run.
Cousins/Daly/Thompson trio up front
Evans/Beno/Thornton trio in the backcourt, with the surprising 60th pick IT showing well as a change of pace spot guard.
Leonard seizes the SF spot. If we get TWill late again, getting pretty happy with that spot too. I'd certainly feel MILES better about that team right now than I do about this one.
Sptsjunkie
Starter
I think we would have been slightly better, but not close to the playoffs.
I think the biggest change would be retaining Dally, as he would give us more of an inside presence. Although he did come into the Rocket's camp out of shape, so it would have likely taken him the first month or two to get back to last year's form.
Beno also came into camp out of shape for the Bucks. So we would expect him to struggle the first month or two. What most people don't realize is that Beno also had a putrid year. Not John Salmons putrid. But his PER was down to 13, his TS% was 49% and he hit 29% of his threes. How much of that would have been avoided if he had stayed in Sacramento with last year's teammates? That's anyone's guess. But especially coming into camp overweight, I don't think we could count on another 15+ PER season.
Casspi has had a 11.7 and 11.2 PER the last two seasons and he's not a good defender. I'm not sure how much he would have added.
Leonard is an interesting one. In San Antonio, he was better than advertised offensively, but poor defensively (bottom third in the league in isolation D and defending the pick and roll). What would his effect have been here? Would his poor D still be an improvement over the poor D we had at SF? Leonard was best off of cuts and moving without the ball and finishing. In theory that could have helped our O, but I am guessing he wouldn't have acclimated as quickly here and we clearly have a less efficient system than the Spurs.
So we might have some slightly improved O at SF. And better interior D from Dally once he got in shape around the start of February. So how many more games would Dally's D have won us in three months?
I'd guess we finish with about 25-28 wins. Better. But far from a playoff threat.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I think this is one of those cases..wait How I am kidding MOST cases are one of those cases, when "advanced" stats are speaking nonsense. Unless its to be believed that advanced stats know the game better than Popovich:
"Kawhi guards the toughest perimeter player on the other team. He's got great length. A great body. Has an inclination to do it. He enjoys the role. He's more gifted than Bruce, skillwise," Popovich said. "Once we figured that out we opened up for him and he worked very hard on his shot, especially his three-point shot. (Assistant coach) Chip England has spent a lot of time with him on that so he's got confidence. He lets it fly. He's not Chris Mullin yet but we don't mind when he takes his open threes."
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/bask...onard-more-gifted-than-Bruce-Bowen/54460516/1
in any case this is all nothing but hypotheticals anyway since we never got to see it happen, and instead shot ourselves in the foot. Again. When you're already in the back of the pack and then you insist on shooting yourself every damn offseason sooner or later you end up dead last and with a hell of a limp.
That's an interesting quote, hadn't seen it before. And it makes me think that maybe the reason San Antonio keeps digging up nuggets late in the draft isn't just that they're good at evaluating talent, but more importantly they're good at developing the talent they do have. They identified Leonard's strengths and weaknesses, gave him a role, and went about teaching him what he'll need to learn to perform that role well -- all of this in his rookie season. We've had Donte Greene on our roster for four years and that still hasn't happened.
With that in mind, no I don't think we would have made the playoffs if we'd drafted Leonard because we would still be flying blind with the same front office personnel and coaching staff that stumbled their way through another terrible season. Leonard would probably be riding the bench or hiring his own shooting coach to work on that jump shot in his own time. I don't want to sound like a defeatist, but it gets frustrating after awhile seeing the same mistakes repeated over and over again.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Playoffs? No. Our coaching is as big, or bigger a problem than our roster. Westy couldn't coach Cuz, Smart can't coach Reke. Records just as poor under both. So while I'd agree the alternative roster here would be more talented, and the key to me being better set up for the future, that talent in itself wouldn't have been enough going against our abysmal coaching.
The killer to me, is taking on the Salmons/Outlaw/Hayes contracts. That hurts us more going forward than the proposed alternative. Much rather have Beno here instead.
Leonard I like, and without a doubt would have helped us. Now, would he to extent he's helped SA? Maybe not. We might have the worst coach in the league and they the best. But he is a very good defender, and I wouldn't put much stock in the above stats mentioned. When you're often guarding the best opposition perimeter player and are part of one of the absolute best defensive teams in the league, you're doing a damn good job.
I do think we would have gotten a better Beno than the Bucks got, and this is where I partly disagree with SportsJunkie. Yes he came into camp out of shape and that was part of his problem, but just as much imo was Skiles' use of him. He rarely played with Jennings, so many times he'd be the sole ball handler, come down set up the offense, and waste away in the corner, whereas here Reke might handle part time, allowing Beno to run off angle screens for that little jumper he's so good at, or cut back door. Never saw that in Mil. Bogut might have helped. They also rarely ran pick & rolls including Beno, which again cut down on his ability to free up for midrange shots. I just don't think Mil was a good place for him, and neither did Beno apparently given what he's said. Also not sure why you said "most people don't realize...", when some have followed Beno closely. Quit an assumption there.
The killer to me, is taking on the Salmons/Outlaw/Hayes contracts. That hurts us more going forward than the proposed alternative. Much rather have Beno here instead.
Leonard I like, and without a doubt would have helped us. Now, would he to extent he's helped SA? Maybe not. We might have the worst coach in the league and they the best. But he is a very good defender, and I wouldn't put much stock in the above stats mentioned. When you're often guarding the best opposition perimeter player and are part of one of the absolute best defensive teams in the league, you're doing a damn good job.
I do think we would have gotten a better Beno than the Bucks got, and this is where I partly disagree with SportsJunkie. Yes he came into camp out of shape and that was part of his problem, but just as much imo was Skiles' use of him. He rarely played with Jennings, so many times he'd be the sole ball handler, come down set up the offense, and waste away in the corner, whereas here Reke might handle part time, allowing Beno to run off angle screens for that little jumper he's so good at, or cut back door. Never saw that in Mil. Bogut might have helped. They also rarely ran pick & rolls including Beno, which again cut down on his ability to free up for midrange shots. I just don't think Mil was a good place for him, and neither did Beno apparently given what he's said. Also not sure why you said "most people don't realize...", when some have followed Beno closely. Quit an assumption there.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
That's why I'm of the opinion our coaching is a bigger issue than our roster. Say we did have Leonard. Smart wouldn't have played him because he doesn't shoot enough jumpers(as he pulled our SF Reke for doing). I'd say Donte has a similar skillset, maybe not as polished, but we've seen just how much Smart values that kind of skillset. You get spot mins at PF every third game. We don't have a coach who understands how to build around defense, therefor drafting Leonard or resigning Daly wouldn't have the success it probably has elsewhere.
Sptsjunkie
Starter
I am surprised we are only limping. After last offseason, I thought we would have to amputate for sure.
Agree, these are all just nonsense hypotheticals.
I do think that Leonard was a poor defender this year though. I did get to watch some Spurs games and agree with Pruiti that he gambles too much. He was also a rookie, so that's understandable. Rookies rarely step in and excel at defense their first year. This is really just one of those puff piece quotes that coaches say about most young players. I can understand where Pop sees potential though.
But yeah, the speculation was in regards to this year and not the long term. Long term, perhaps Leonard will be one of the best defenders in the NBA. But this season it's hard to imagine him having a large defensive impact on a team as bad at playing team defense as ours.
Sptsjunkie
Starter
Agree. I think Buford has been a solid GM. But I think Pop is a pretty special coach. The way they are able to plug decent player into their system and get the most out of them pretty consistently is outstanding. I have a ton of respect for him and wish we had a coach of that caliber.
Sptsjunkie
Starter
BTW Brick, here's what Pruiti wrote about his D in the article I linked above and at:
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id...-irving-final-nba-rookie-rankings-2012-season
But although Leonard has the physical tools to be a top-notch defender, he's still learning how to translate them into actual good defense. Leonard struggles to defend pick-and-roll and isolation plays; in both situations, his PPP allowed ranks in the bottom third of the league. Yet Leonard also forces turnovers 16.3 percent of the time against ball screens and 14.4 percent of the time against isolation plays. That's very good. The problem is that when he isn't forcing turnovers, Leonard is often giving up easy baskets. Leonard loves to gamble. Forcing turnovers is good, but I think that if he tried to steal the ball less often and just focused on stopping his man, Leonard's defensive stats would improve. He must learn to pick his spots when going for steals.
You know, maybe this conversation would have a different tone if Evans/Cousins/Hawes/Etc.. had been properly developed. (Although, would we have had Cousins if Hawes had developed? Not sure I would make that trade at all.)
Uncia03
Starter
We have the basic talent pieces to be successful.
What we lack is the coach.
So if we had brought in a good coach in the off-season rather than letting Westphal have the reigns for his 7 games, then we might have had a chance to make the play-offs. We probably would still have missed them, due to lack of practice and training time in the pre-season, but we would have been far better, and we'd probably be poised to make the play-offs next season.
Almost more than the lottery, I care more about our coaching situation. If we win the lottery but stick with Coach Smart or some other 'cheap' option, I don't think we have an realistic shot of making the play-offs in the near future.
You talent has to be overwhelmingly better in order to consistently beat teams that have a good system in place. I'd rather have the better talent and have a competent system, because that's what you need to be successful.
What we lack is the coach.
So if we had brought in a good coach in the off-season rather than letting Westphal have the reigns for his 7 games, then we might have had a chance to make the play-offs. We probably would still have missed them, due to lack of practice and training time in the pre-season, but we would have been far better, and we'd probably be poised to make the play-offs next season.
Almost more than the lottery, I care more about our coaching situation. If we win the lottery but stick with Coach Smart or some other 'cheap' option, I don't think we have an realistic shot of making the play-offs in the near future.
You talent has to be overwhelmingly better in order to consistently beat teams that have a good system in place. I'd rather have the better talent and have a competent system, because that's what you need to be successful.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Why don't we have a good coach? There is a bigger problem than the coach.
We'd certainly have the players to do so. Not sure about the coach though.
With Smart, i dont know how he'd do with Beno/Casspi/Leonard/Dalembert in the lineup. He thinks that our best strategy with our current lineup is to run and gun, even though there has been multiple instances where a substitution here and there would've made a difference in our ability to win games.
Westphal, though many on here seem to despise of him to a degree that i don't think is deserving to him, would've probably done better than Smart. We all know about WP's "freedom" approach to what the players do on the floor. Recal the latter half of DMC's rookie year, we looked pretty damn good didn't we, given the players we had? Like it or not, that's on Westphal. I don't know how'd he do with an athletic, defensive capable player like Kawhi, but if he had the sense to replace, IMO, Marcus Thornton with Kawhi, and then led a lineup of Beno/Reke/Kawhi/Jt/Cousins, we would definitely be a whole lot better than what we've been seeing this season.
On another note, I don't understand the dislike towards Westphal. Sure he took a while to figure out our lineups, sure he didn't define roles for our players. But don't forget he had to find a way to deal with Reke and Cousins, both of whom are special in regards to the position they play. I think what he did worked for Cousins, but started to become adverse to Reke's development.
edit: Realized i didn't give an answer to Op's question; in short, yes, IF he made the decision to play Leonard in place of Thornton and relegated Marcus to the bench.
With Smart, i dont know how he'd do with Beno/Casspi/Leonard/Dalembert in the lineup. He thinks that our best strategy with our current lineup is to run and gun, even though there has been multiple instances where a substitution here and there would've made a difference in our ability to win games.
Westphal, though many on here seem to despise of him to a degree that i don't think is deserving to him, would've probably done better than Smart. We all know about WP's "freedom" approach to what the players do on the floor. Recal the latter half of DMC's rookie year, we looked pretty damn good didn't we, given the players we had? Like it or not, that's on Westphal. I don't know how'd he do with an athletic, defensive capable player like Kawhi, but if he had the sense to replace, IMO, Marcus Thornton with Kawhi, and then led a lineup of Beno/Reke/Kawhi/Jt/Cousins, we would definitely be a whole lot better than what we've been seeing this season.
On another note, I don't understand the dislike towards Westphal. Sure he took a while to figure out our lineups, sure he didn't define roles for our players. But don't forget he had to find a way to deal with Reke and Cousins, both of whom are special in regards to the position they play. I think what he did worked for Cousins, but started to become adverse to Reke's development.
edit: Realized i didn't give an answer to Op's question; in short, yes, IF he made the decision to play Leonard in place of Thornton and relegated Marcus to the bench.
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I really don't know what the heck happened between Westphal and Cousins in this season. But in the latter half of last season, post all star game, I think Demarcus was playing the best basketball of his NBA career. We saw him operate in the low post a whole lot more, and took advantage of his passing skills, something that we havent been seeing much of under Coach smart, and something that i think is a huge reason why Cousins can be one of the better big men in the league.
As for the point about Beno, my question is: why wouldn't he be better? He's still in his prime. And he'd be 1+ year more familiar under the WP approach to Reke and Cousins. So i have no doubt that Beno would've become a better player than he was during Cousins' rookie season.
I think Westphal's biggest problem was communication. For one thing, Green and Thompson never seemed to get any clear instructions on what they have to do to see game time. Cousins obviously felt like he was being treated unfairly as did Hawes before him. We had a number of journeyman role-players (ie guys who have the benefit of experience with multiple organizations to draw from) badmouth his pre-game preparation on their way out. Even Reke at the end was openly questioning the lack of offensive direction. He had a laid-back approach which made some players comfortable but alienated others and he didn't pay enough attention to his bench players and what they needed to feel motivated and appreciated.
I don't think he was a terrible coach from an Xs and Os stand-point, but he wasn't a very good teacher. His offensive system relied on ball-dominant guard play and players reading and reacting to the defense. Unfortunately half the time our players just looked lost out there. I could see him being successful with a veteran group, but in retrospect he was a terrible coach to be guiding a group of young people.
Hawes, Nocioni, and Beno felt that they were being 'treated unfairly'. Nocioni and Hawes complained that there weren't enough plays being run. Beno complained that a paticular player wasn't passing enough. That was in 2010, Tyreke's rookie year.
Now the problem with Cousins and Westphal, i dont really understand. It might've been more a move in part of the organizaton than it was due to Westphal and/or Cousins.
Reke's concerns, became significant when it was Coach Smart who began playing Reke as a SF. That has nothing to do with Westphal. Matter of fact, i think Reke loved Westphal's game plan, as did Cousins. We all know about WP's "freedom" approach. He gave both Cousins and Reke the freedom to play their game.
But as we entered our third year with Reke, we had to account for Thornton, and maybe that's where Westphal got a bit out of hand. Thornton needed his shots, and it alienated Reke from being our 1-2 punch. Then throw in IT, and Reke becomes further alienated under Smart.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
You brought up a very good point I don't think anyone else has mentioned. Cuz played pretty well under Westy down the stretch last year. I have no clue what happened between the two after that, but as far as on the court, post AS break, often paired with Daly, Cuz did play well, and actually was used more effectively than under Smart in terms of his skills/talents. Smart never took advantage of Cuz's passing, unlike Westy.
We regularly saw Cuz simply iso'd either 20 ft away, where he had to face up, or just iso'd in the post, which is fine for a portion of the time, but when it's most of the time without any cutters/off the ball movement/off the ball screens to free cutters/shooters, it became ridiculous under Smart. Whereas with Westy we'd run some misdirection and back-doors, where a guy like Beno would get 1-2 baskets per game.
Now, Cuz was going to improve on last season whether Westy, Smart or my sister was coaching. He got himself in shape and really committed himself last summer. But then something happened with he and Westy and it really went south. Then Smart came along, Cuz started putting up huge numbers, and many think it's because of Smart. I completely disagree with that, in that I believe Cuz's play this year had more to do with a)being in much better shape and b) having anyone besides Westy coaching him after it did go south. But Smart didn't use Cuz any more effectively than Westy did the 2nd half of the prior season,and I'd say used him less effectively. Straight iso's, and a few open kickouts from others. Yet Cuz's asts were considerably lower this year, and the baskets he was assisted on were lows as well. Same for Reke btw. They both scored off their talent, not because of Smart doing anything.
I actually have wondered how the 2nd half of the last season under Westy, how Cuz's play would have been with the same experience and improved conditioning/body he had under Smart. Westy used him more effectively, and actually implemented an offense around/using his talents, but Cuz was a porky rookie running on fumes at that point. Smart had a more mature, considerably more in shape Cuz, yet never ran an offense around his talents. He was often stuck with no one to pass too.
Another thing, some bring up Cuz's FG% and FGA's sometimes, yet I'd wager if we actually had some weakside movement/misdirection/better spacing/cutters he wouldn't have forced many of the shots he did end up forcing. Often time he had no other option than to shoot.
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But apparently Cousins liked that Smart let him take jumpshots and handle the ball like a guard all the time.
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