Will Kevin buy in???

[gunks]

Too bad The Cavs dont really have anyone to trade to us for Kevin.

Maybe big Z? He'd definately help our frontcourt depth, and I believe he's an expiring as well? Considering how bad Shaq is playing I doubt they'd ship him out though. But yeah, Kevin on the Cavs would be awesome.

As to Kevin buying into it? I think he will. He doesnt seem to be the type of player to complain about a reduced role in the offense, and honestly I think he'll totally thrive if he's a number 2 guy. Get back to his old in the flow efficient self.

The real issue I think is whether or not Reke needs to play next to a more PGish player.

 

[Bricklayer]

i could care less where he plays, be it with the kings or any other team in the league. id rather see him on a good team just to see how good he really is. i would do backflips all the way to the bank if martin somehow ended up on the cavs... that would be awesome. but you are right he will never be the man... but he could be the ultimate sidekick to a real superstar like lebron. he could elevate martins game to the pippen sidekick level of players... he is a legit 24ppg scorer and does so in an efficient way. no team could double lebron off of their sg... lebron would take over the world. (evil supervillan laugh)MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....

That however is not the way it generally works. I can recall no instance of a LeBron, a Michael, a Kobe, a TMac, or any other player of that general style/class, including Reke BTW, who has worked well with and had a 20+pt perimeter pure scorer out there on the perimeter with him, let alone a 24ppg scorer. That would include the scoring PGs BTW as well the do it all ball dominant SGs and SFs.

People get so caught up in the myth of scoring efficiently and magically not requiring any touches to do so that the miss the fact that Kevin, like all big scorers, requires a HELL of a lot of touches to do so. And in the case of a Kevin or other player who does not create well for himself, it requires additional possessions/work by the rest of the team to get him open.

This does not mean that Kevin showing up would not help LeBron by providing a threat that they could not double off of, but it does mean that he's not scoring any 24ppg in that role. The ball dominant superstars need the ball to be what they are and do what they do. That means no pure PGs next to them, and it means no big touch perimeter guys needing their own plays and touches to get goiing. They will create for their supporting cast, but its on their own plays and their own terms. Kevin could play that role, but its as an 18-20p type guy receiving kickout passes and getting out on the break with LeBron, not a 24ppg having the ball stop in his hands. Michael Redd suspected as much, which was why he chose to be a pure scoring nothing "face of the franchise" in Milwaulkee ratehr than go be a sidekick to LeBron. It would be the same tradeoff for Kevin.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

OK, I stand corrected on where he is on the overall chart. My point is however is that he does take more than the shots that show up on the stats list. So when your figuring out to spread the shots around, you have to take that into consideration. As I said, this wasn't intended as a knock on Martin. Merely pointing out that you just can't say that he takes only 16 shots a game when you go about dividing up shots.

I guess I didn't realize your point was # of shots taken, and not efficiency! For what it's worth, Martin used about 20.5 possessions/game last year, counting shots and non-FGA shooting fouls. He was using about 26.5 possessions/game this year, but it was a small sample size (5 games) so take it for what it's worth.

 

[AriesMar27]

I understand what you're saying brick, but the way that the cava are built lebron isn't supposed to be the only scorer on the floor. Just the best one. You swap Martin for west and Parker and the offense wouldn't change the way it's run.

If Martin can score 20 ppg as a third option behind artest and bibby then he should have no problem scoring 24 with lebron. I watched a ton of cavs games last season. West would just miss wide open threes all game long. The ecf against the magic showed how bad he was at hitting those shots. Once lebron goes to the bench it's a coin flip with their offense, if Williams or Gibson aren't on fire the cavs lose and lebron has to beast his way back into the game. With martin, they wouldn't have that problem. He can take over the offense while lebron is on the bench. He really is their missing piece... Martin doesn't want to be the main man and lebron needs someone who can score on a consistent basis. Williams when he is on is great but you won't see it happen that often. He'll score 20 in one game and 9 in the next. Martin will if anything will his way to 20 points every night.

 

[roasthawg]

That however is not the way it generally works. I can recall no instance of a LeBron, a Michael, a Kobe, a TMac, or any other player of that general style/class, including Reke BTW, who has worked well with and had a 20+pt perimeter pure scorer out there on the perimeter with him, let alone a 24ppg scorer.

Ray Allen and Paul Pierce in Boston is the closest I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[AriesMar27]

Ray Allen and Paul Pierce in Boston is the closest I can think of off the top of my head.

i was gonna say that but they had kg to be their emotional leader and to keep their egos in check... though i guess shaq and lebron could do the same thing... the player coming in has to accept that it isnt their team. thats all everyone talked about in 2008... and all you heard from the celtics was about how kg made peanut butter and jelly sandwiches before each game and how they all agreed to sacrifice their scoring to win games. they knew exactly what they had and they took advantage of it. i would hope that martin is humble enough to know that lebron is light-years ahead of him as a player and that wouldnt be an issue. especially after a 17 win season....

 

[Bricklayer]

Ray Allen and Paul Pierce in Boston is the closest I can think of off the top of my head.

It was the closet I could think of too, but apart from that being a unique situation with the 3 old vets all coming together + willing to sacrifice, its notable that Allen's ppg shrank down to about 18ppg as soon as he showed up there.

 

[jaysoonii]

Kevin Martin imo should be a king for life no questions asked.

 

[Chupacabra]

Im sure Martin will buy in. Our backcourt is going to be a matchup nightmare. Do you let you point guard guard Evans and get run over or do you let him guard Martin and allow Martin to get good looks at the basket from 3 all game long? Opposing teams are going to be punished!

 

[Widowmaker2k]

I'm okay with Kevin being an 18ppg second option, as long as he brings something else to the table besides scoring. He's a good enough scorer that he absolutely has to be respected by the defense, and can help cut down on the double teams on Reke. As long Martin can play at least adequate defense (he did his first few seasons), I think that it's a solid back court pairing. A problem arises if Reke needs another player with PG skills to help him run the team, but assuming Cisco comes back and gets the starting nod at SF, it's probably okay.

All that being said, the surefire championship contender pairing is a back court star + a front court star. If we can package Kevin with anybody else on this team besides Evans, in return for a star caliber big man, you do it.

 

[fiction916]

Martin is a defensive liability on this team. The Kings are 9th in the league in points scored and 23rd in points allowed per 100 possessions.

As mentioned earlier, despite Kevin's efficiency, all those trips to the line are opportunities taken from our developing core. Further, I hate to risk upsetting what's going on here for more scoring--he's neither a leader nor clutch performer.

I like Kevin coming off the bench for a contending team (see Jason Terry).

Trade him for a big (love Marc Gasol) and/or someone expiring.

 

[dbfish]

The question is,"Will Kevin buy in"?

I think he will in the begining, but old habits are hard to break.

In the end I'm afraid he will revert back to being Kevin and in the end it

will end up hurting the team chemistry and he will be traded.

IMHO.

 

[kennadog]

I think I'll actually wait to see Kevin play for a bit with the team, before I worry about whether he's fitting in.

If the team is doing better than last year, I'm sure Kevin doesn't want to be the person who drags the team down and he's not a selfish player. I think he can adjust and has the willingness to do so. Defense is his weakness, though and that's what I'll be curious to watch when he returns

On the other hand, for the right deal, we could move Martin. He's the best trading piece we have.

BTW, someone posted they didn't see Martin at the games and involved, like Garcia. I've seen Martin at the games at standing in huddles during timeouts and supporting his teammates.

 

[Section 101]

The question is,"Will Kevin buy in"?

I think he will in the begining, but old habits are hard to break.

In the end I'm afraid he will revert back to being Kevin and in the end it

will end up hurting the team chemistry and he will be traded.

IMHO.

revert back to what? The guy who is always preaching ball movement and team play.

 

[AriesMar27]

revert back to what? The guy who is always preaching ball movement and team play.

i was thinking the same thing, revert back to the guy who scored 20ppg as a third option behind bibby and artest? that would suck...

 

[Kingster]

If by "buy in" you mean buy into playing tough defense, well, he will try at least moderately to do that. My issue with Martin is that if you really wanted him to play that style, and he wanted to play that style, his body won't accomodate it. It just can't take the pounding. Martin is a valuable player in this league. Many teams would LOVE to have him. I think the Rip Hamilton comparison is relatively close. But leaving aside what I think about him and how he fits, I have the distinct feeling that Westphal wants a tougher, rougher customer in the long term. That's just reading the tea leaves.

As far as his offense and curtailing the number of shots, I think Martin will be ok with that, especially now that he can sees the team plays well distributing the ball to a lot of people.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

i was thinking the same thing, revert back to the guy who scored 20ppg as a third option behind bibby and artest? that would suck...

Who is responsible for manufacturing this Red Herring? Martin only played one full season with both Bibby and Artest: in that season, he led the team in scoring, and was second on the team in shot attempts. Please provide a cite that supports this claim that Martin was the third option.

 

[AriesMar27]

Who is responsible for manufacturing this Red Herring? Martin only played one full season with both Bibby and Artest: in that season, he led the team in scoring, and was second on the team in shot attempts. Please provide a cite that supports this claim that Martin was the third option.

look it up... in 2006-07 martin was third in fga... at 13.3. artest was 1st at 14.9 and bibby was 2nd at 14.2...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams...7&season=2&sort=pts&order=true&avg=pg&split=0

unless im reading it wrong, if so then my bad but last time i checked he was third.

 

[kennadog]

As far as his offense and curtailing the number of shots, I think Martin will be ok with that, especially now that he can sees the team plays well distributing the ball to a lot of people.

I'm pretty sure he'd rather get less shots and win over what he had to endure last year.

 

[Bricklayer]

The question of "buying in" is an interesting one, and largely dependent on how big and entrenched Kevin's ego has become. But he's not stupid, and even if the ego does chafe I doubt he can miss the liklihood that if he gets in front of this particular train and tries to hold it up he's just going to be run over and discarded. So in many ways asking whether Kevin WILL "buy in" slants the question. That's a question of choice.

The better question is whether Kevin Martin CAN buy in. Whether a terminally soft one dimensional player who has spent his entire career, nay his entire life, playing a certain way, as a pure scorer with few other responsibilities...whether that player can suddenly, by choice, morph into a totally new creature in order to fit in. And even more than that, how could such a transformation be accomplished without disrupting the players already there doing those thigns, taking those shots, and eating those minutes who are 100% no way around it going to be displaced by the new player?

And of course hand in hand with the CAN question is why would you even want him too? Why, apart from the silliness of lingering sentiment, would you ask your orange to pretend to be an apple? In particular when there are other kids in the schoolyard who might trade you their apples for your orange. It is like taking Brad Miller and designating him your post player, or taking Shaq and asking him to be a three point shooter. Why? Its not what they are. Not what they excel at. And if you indeed want a three point shooter there are many better (and cheaper) options than spotting up Shaq out there. Its not as if basketball players are all either "good" players or "not good" players like some simplistic computer game and you can just plug any one of them into any role and they will excel at it equally. They all have propensities, specialties. And if you looking for a scrappy, versatile, defensive player, you are far better off going out and acquiring one rather than trying to fit your square peg into a round hole and ask a player who is none of those things to try to pretend to be, at the low low price of 11 million dollars.

 

[Kingsguy881]

The question of "buying in" is an interesting one, and largely dependent on how big and entrenched Kevin's ego has become. But he's not stupid, and even if the ego does chafe I doubt he can miss the liklihood that if he gets in front of this particular train and tries to hold it up he's just going to be run over and discarded. So in many ways asking whether Kevin WILL "buy in" slants the question. That's a question of choice.

The better question is whether Kevin Martin CAN buy in. Whether a terminally soft one dimensional player who has spent his entire career, nay his entire life, playing a certain way, as a pure scorer with few other responsibilities...whether that player can suddenly, by choice, morph into a totally new creature in order to fit in. And even more than that, how could such a transformation be accomplished without disrupting the players already there doing those thigns, taking those shots, and eating those minutes who are 100% no way around it going to be displaced by the new player?

And of course hand in hand with the CAN question is why would you even want him too? Why, apart from the silliness of lingering sentiment, would you ask your orange to pretend to be an apple? In particular when there are other kids in the schoolyard who might trade you their apples for your orange. It is like taking Brad Miller and designating him your post player, or taking Shaq and asking him to be a three point shooter. Why? Its not what they are. Not what they excel at. And if you indeed want a three point shooter there are many better (and cheaper) options than spotting up Shaq out there. Its not as if basketball players are all either "good" players or "not good" players like some simplistic computer game and you can just plug any one of them into any role and they will excel at it equally. They all have propensities, specialties. And if you looking for a scrappy, versatile, defensive player, you are far better off going out and acquiring one rather than trying to fit your square peg into a round hole and ask a player who is none of those things to try to pretend to be, at the low low price of 11 million dollars.

With all that being said, I'd take him if he can become a spot up 3-pt shooter who can drive and get to the basket and plays perimeter defense like Doug Christie. Is that too much to ask?

 

[Kingsguy881]

revert back to what? The guy who is always preaching ball movement and team play.

Yeah, him, the one who rarely practices what he preaches. Him.

 

[kennadog]

With all that being said, I'd take him if he can become a spot up 3-pt shooter who can drive and get to the basket and plays perimeter defense like Doug Christie. Is that too much to ask?

The bolded part, yes. Martin could become a better defender, which means he could become average, maybe a little more than that. Doug was a great defender and I seriously doubt Martin can become that. If he proves me wrong, then that would be wonderful.

 

[Kingsguy881]

The bolded part, yes. Martin could become a better defender, which means he could become average, maybe a little more than that. Doug was a great defender and I seriously doubt Martin can become that. If he proves me wrong, then that would be wonderful.

Coming out of Pepperdine, Doug was known as a scorer with good athleticism. While in the league, he honed his defensive skills, first with New York and then with Toronto. By the time he got to Sacramento he took a certain amount of measured pride in his defense and we got to see a different DC than those other teams did. There is nothing to say that Kevin can't buckle down and focus on his defense, however I personally don't think he has the personality, or the cajones, to become a lockdown perimeter defender.

 

[Telemachus]

i was thinking the same thing, revert back to the guy who scored 20ppg as a third option behind bibby and artest? that would suck...

I have been wondering the same thing. One thing about Martin is that he has never been a selfish player or a ball-dominate player. He is the type of scorer who can be a compliment to almost any other type of scorer. The problem the past couple of seasons is that the Kings needed him to be their primary scorer, and I don't think he is a good fit for that role.

 

[hardware_failure]

The question of "buying in" is an interesting one, and largely dependent on how big and entrenched Kevin's ego has become. But he's not stupid, and even if the ego does chafe I doubt he can miss the liklihood that if he gets in front of this particular train and tries to hold it up he's just going to be run over and discarded. So in many ways asking whether Kevin WILL "buy in" slants the question. That's a question of choice.

The better question is whether Kevin Martin CAN buy in. Whether a terminally soft one dimensional player who has spent his entire career, nay his entire life, playing a certain way, as a pure scorer with few other responsibilities...whether that player can suddenly, by choice, morph into a totally new creature in order to fit in. And even more than that, how could such a transformation be accomplished without disrupting the players already there doing those thigns, taking those shots, and eating those minutes who are 100% no way around it going to be displaced by the new player?

And of course hand in hand with the CAN question is why would you even want him too? Why, apart from the silliness of lingering sentiment, would you ask your orange to pretend to be an apple? In particular when there are other kids in the schoolyard who might trade you their apples for your orange. It is like taking Brad Miller and designating him your post player, or taking Shaq and asking him to be a three point shooter. Why? Its not what they are. Not what they excel at. And if you indeed want a three point shooter there are many better (and cheaper) options than spotting up Shaq out there. Its not as if basketball players are all either "good" players or "not good" players like some simplistic computer game and you can just plug any one of them into any role and they will excel at it equally. They all have propensities, specialties. And if you looking for a scrappy, versatile, defensive player, you are far better off going out and acquiring one rather than trying to fit your square peg into a round hole and ask a player who is none of those things to try to pretend to be, at the low low price of 11 million dollars.

I think you hit the nail on its round head on this one...

For all of those people who are trying to defend Kevin and dont like the negative talk about him... well this is why its out there.

Kevin Martin is a great player but its very questionable if his "propensities and specialties" will fit the current (winning) Kings team.

 

[kennadog]

I think you hit the nail on its round head on this one...

For all of those people who are trying to defend Kevin and dont like the negative talk about him... well this is why its out there.

Kevin Martin is a great player but its very questionable if his "propensities and specialties" will fit the current (winning) Kings team.

I think Brick's post is excellent, but your comments about Martin's defenders is not quite fair. The original question of the thread was will Kevin buy in. As one of the "defenders" of K-Mart in here, I think Kevin is not a selfish player and will want to buy in to what's happening with this team.

Whether his skills or deficiencies make it difficult/impossible for him to fit in well with the team and its direction is a whole 'nother question.

 

[hardware_failure]

I think Brick's post is excellent, but your comments about Martin's defenders is not quite fair. The original question of the thread was will Kevin buy in. As one of the "defenders" of K-Mart in here, I think Kevin is not a selfish player and will want to buy in to what's happening with this team.

Whether his skills or deficiencies make it difficult/impossible for him to fit in well with the team and its direction is a whole 'nother question.

I agree that he will "want" to buy in, I was bascially agreeing with bricklayer that wanting to do something and being able to do so are different things, and this might prove to be painful for kmart fans.

I would LOVE it if upon Kevins return he plays scrappy and aggressive on the defensive end, just dunno if thats gonna happen. :-/