Will Kevin buy in???

[Entity]

OK OK. We have made threads and made threads on top of threads about possible starting lineups and had polls about what starting lineup we SHOULD use.

BUT

The fact is Kevin will be the starting SG when he returns baring 2 or 3 games of easing him back in. Anybody that doubts that is dillusional.

Now of course our team seems to have developed a new dynamic since Martins injury occured. That of a true TEAM effort where each and every night we have no idea who will have the most points, rebounds, or assist (similiar to 8 years ago)

For the last 3 years it has always been Kevin leading the team in scoring and the coaching staffs in the past has put that pressure on him and feed him the ball the whole game and how he went was how our offense went.

So all that said will Kevin buy into dynamic and come back and just let the game come to him and not pitch a fit if he doesn't get 25 pts a night or 20 atempts.

I am sure Westphal will talk to him (or has) about our new guys and how they are contributing offensivley and this new direction.

I am not saying it should be all Evans or Thompson or whoever either. With the correct balance and Martin coming up with those amazing shots when we are slow on offense (see 2nd Memphis game) I think we can make a real run at things.

Once again this isn't a should he start or trade Kevin thread. He will start and will not get traded. So lets talk about him taking on his new role.

 

[gmcfly]

Why start this now? Kevin isn't coming back for several more weeks. The Kings are obviously playing better without him now. That may not be the case in a month or two. It will be up tp Kevin to fit in, not the other way around. The team may be a better team without him. The chemistry certainly looks better. It will look very bad for K-mart to come back and have the team play poorly. There will be a lot of pressure on him to fit in. It's gonna be interesting for sure.

 

[Jechtsphere]

I think if any player had to buy into such a thing Kevin is one of the last you need to worry about.

Although it's still an unknown how it will all work out, it's one of the things I look forward to seeing develop.

 

[rainmaker]

I don't have any doubt Kevin will buy in. Up intil this season, he never put up more than 16 shots a game. Some people act like Kevin is goin to come back and demand 25 shots per game, and take over the offense. Thast has never been the case with kevin. Is Kevin best as a 30ppg scorer and the 1st option on a team? No. But IMO, he fits perfectly as an efficent 20-25ppg scorer who keeps teh defense honest and opens things up for everyone else, Tyreke in peticular.

It seemed to me, the general consesus about Kevin, which I agree with, was that he is a great scorer who who be a perfect 2nd or 3rd option. Well, the talent level surrounding kevin has increased, and he no longer has to be the 1st option every time out. We have other guys that can score to. This makes Kevin more dangerous, as well as everyone else.

Its much tougher to double someone when we have additional scoring threats on the floor. Kevin and Tyreke won't see as many double teams. The fact Kevin is our best 3pt shooter helps spread the floor, and will help JT and Spenc in the post. Defenses can't play off Kevin, which prevents them from clogging the lane and making life tougher on Tyreke. Having Kevin out there opens up lanes for Tyreke which is very important. My point being, kevin gives us more options, more flexibility, and Kevin should be able to pick his spots. I see kevin still scoring 20+, but in a more efficient manner. It also doesn't allow the defense to switch their sg over to Tyreke, making Tyreke's life easier.

No one knows how kevin will fit in when he returns. But personally, I'm excited to see what Kevin can do as a complimentary piece, not being our only scoring option out there. Tyreke will devlop into our #1 option, but put Kevin next to him and that combination could be lethal. Maybe it won't. I think it will. But its definately to early to give up on that possibility before we give Tyreke and Kevin a chance to play and develop some chemistry together.

 

[Entity]

Yeah some want to go by those first 5 games kevin played in. that was before We knew exactly what we had with Tyreke. Now that we know. For a later conversation I think Garcia is the better role playing SF to start with those 2. Beno, Casspi, Greene is a nice bench to have we still need that big though.

 

[Nighthawk1]

Kevin will buy in. He isn't a greedy player at all. The problem I think will come to whether his defensive effort is enough for Westphal. I think the only issue from KMart will come on the defensive end and if he will play tougher man defense or if he'll just sit back there and try to anticipate passes to pick off. I would love to see the scrappy team spirit we have now wear off on him in that aspect, but only time will tell...

 

[6th]

Its much tougher to double someone when we have additional scoring threats on the floor. Kevin and Tyreke won't see as many double teams. The fact Kevin is our best 3pt shooter helps spread the floor, and will help JT and Spenc in the post. Defenses can't play off Kevin, which prevents them from clogging the lane and making life tougher on Tyreke. Having Kevin out there opens up lanes for Tyreke which is very important. My point being, kevin gives us more options, more flexibility, and Kevin should be able to pick his spots. I see kevin still scoring 20+, but in a more efficient manner. It also doesn't allow the defense to switch their sg over to Tyreke, making Tyreke's life easier.

No one knows how kevin will fit in when he returns. But personally, I'm excited to see what Kevin can do as a complimentary piece, not being our only scoring option out there. Tyreke will devlop into our #1 option, but put Kevin next to him and that combination could be lethal. Maybe it won't. I think it will. But its definately to early to give up on that possibility before we give Tyreke and Kevin a chance to play and develop some chemistry together.

I absolutely agree with this, rainmaker.

Kevin is a professional. He has been our #1 option in recent years, because he was asked to be. A lot is going to hinge on the coaching staff. If they run offensive sets that include everyone, then everyone will be involved. If they want Tyreke to be our #1 option, then that is how Kevin will play.

Never assume a player wants to be the #1 option just because he has been forced into it in the past. Kevin will be whatever the team/coaches need him to be. That's the kind of player he is.

 

[Entity]

Kevin will buy in. He isn't a greedy player at all. The problem I think will come to whether his defensive effort is enough for Westphal. I think the only issue from KMart will come on the defensive end and if he will play tougher man defense or if he'll just sit back there and try to anticipate passes to pick off. I would love to see the scrappy team spirit we have now wear off on him in that aspect, but only time will tell...

then you have to think is Beno really a better defender than Kevin?

 

[Bricklayer]

Kevin's had things his own way around here for a long time. Now there were hints in one of the newspaper articles that the injuries of recent years had caused some tension between he and the front office, but other than that its going to be a precipitous fall for hte golden boy and annointed face fo the franchsie to come back and realize (perhaps wiht a sense of relief, who knows) that he's been knocked down a notch or two on the totem pole in the space of only a few weeks. Better men than Kevin Martin would struggle to swallow that without a fuss.

Of course the question is asked in such a way that a number of salient questions get left off, primarily even if Kevin does buy in, does his game or demeanor fit in with this feisty group of kids? Can he matter if he's not shooting? And if he's not shooting is he worth that suddenly inflated contract? What exactly is Kevin Martin if not a featured scorer?

Every shot Kevin Martin gets when he retruns is ashot that Reke, Beno, Jason, Spencer Noc, Casspi, Donte etc. do not. Every minute he gets is a minute that Reke, Beno, Casspi, Donte or Sergio would have gotten instead. Its not enough for him to put up numbers. he has to a) put up better numbers than all those guys he's replacing; and b) put up millions of dollars fo better numbers than the guys he's replacing in order to justify that contract for positions that we are doing fine wiht at the moment; and c) while putting up his numbers not disrupt the rest of the young team on either end of the court.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Never let it be said that Bricklayer is inconsistent...

 

[AriesMar27]

it depends on who loses minutes and shots once martin returns...

 

[Entity]

it depends on who loses minutes and shots once martin returns...

I think Sergio and Udoka could get pushed to 0 time. Beno would lose some as well as Tyreke, Casspi, Noc, and Greene.

take last nights min

Beno 33
Casspi 30
Sergio 14
Donte 15
Noc 17
Tyreke 38

It would be more like

Tyreke 35
Martin 35
Casspi 15
Donte 15
Noc 15
Beno 25
Sergio 0

of course there will be nights with players that are ineffective that would get less min and others with more. thats what needs to happen. Say Kevin is way off then he don't need to be out there for 35 or if he is getting rocked on defense same with anybody. Just wish we had another big.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Its going to be interesting, thats for sure.

It will be tough to see anyone, aside from Udoka and Kenny, lose minutes when Kmart returns, but thats exactly what is going to happen. I think it CAN work .. I just dont know if it will.

In the back of my mind Im upset when I dont see him at the games and as involved as Cisco is with the team. This could mean a potential chemistry problem when he returns. ( I know kmart has been at some games, but I think ive seen cisco at almost all of them .. in the huddle, directing players )


The bottom line is that at the least, one of Cisco, Kmart, Noc, Casspi, or Greene has to be traded. Its just not going to work out when everyone is healthy. I say trade the one that fits in the least with what were going for. At the moment, Kevin is the 'Me' guy .. the one that gives us nothing but offense, and the one that will bring us the best package back in return.

Im fine with giving him another shot, but what we have going right now isnt worth losing for Kevin Martin.

 

[AriesMar27]

I think Sergio and Udoka could get pushed to 0 time. Beno would lose some as well as Tyreke, Casspi, Noc, and Greene.

take last nights min

Beno 33
Casspi 30
Sergio 14
Donte 15
Noc 17
Tyreke 38

It would be more like

Tyreke 35
Martin 35
Casspi 15
Donte 15
Noc 15
Beno 25
Sergio 0

of course there will be nights with players that are ineffective that would get less min and others with more. thats what needs to happen. Say Kevin is way off then he don't need to be out there for 35 or if he is getting rocked on defense same with anybody. Just wish we had another big.

sergio just started to get minutes 2-3 games ago... but we have enough minutes for martin. he and evans can play 35 minutes per game leaving 13 for beno and sergio.. casspi and greene's minutes will be dictated by nocioni...

if martin and evans play 30 minutes per game i dont see where it will be a problem. its a good problem to have with a young team, this only becomes a problem if evans cant be a full-time pg. if he cant handle it we will need beno and/or sergio to help maintain the flow of the offense. then we will basically be picking who we want to score, martin or evans... this whole debate has little to do with martin, its evans...

we already know that beno and sergio can play coming off of the bench. we already know that evans can play with beno/sergio and the offense can be run efficiently. what we dont know is if we can maintain that offensive flow with evans being the primary ballhandler/distributor. im not trying to turn this into an argument about evans, im just saying that this has little to do with martin. if he can play with bibby and artest without any problems scoring.... it shouldnt be a problem with for him to score with evans... he proved that earlier in the season... martin is a scorer and will find ways to score. it might make him a better player if he becomes the one who changes his game to fit the flow of the new offense.

 

[apollo916]

Just as long as he passes, I wont tell Westphal to limit his minutes as much as he can.

 

[reid1boys]

I say trade the one that fits in the least with what were going for. At the moment, Kevin is the 'Me' guy .. the one that gives us nothing but offense, and the one that will bring us the best package back in return.

Im fine with giving him another shot, but what we have going right now isnt worth losing for Kevin Martin.




This team is still not at .500. so what is it that we have going that is so great you are ready to trade Martin? Dont get me wrong, I am excited about this young team right now, but lets not get delusional. The top teams in the league have abig time scorer, you always need that GUY.

Like someoe else said, Martin has never been a guy taking 25 shots a game anyways, so I am not sure why people are so concerned about when he comes back. KT and Sergio are going to get zip minutes in all probability. This team needs Martin for the future. No way you trade him.... well if Bosh is involved, that is a different story.


But I do agree, this team either sits a young player again (somethng I am completely against) or someone likely needs to go. My vote would be for Cisco to be traded over anybody else. We'll see.

 

[apollo916]

Well in my opinion when Martin plays I see less successful runs, I see the ball in his hands. As well it seems like no one wants to play with him. Since he's been gone Ben's been lighting it up, and slowly Evans will become that clutch go to guy.

 

[JB_kings]

I'm not worried about Kevin fitting in. He's not a selfish player. He does however have another very justified reputation - being fragile. So he and Beno are always going to make you dream of what is possible and slap you back into reality when they are in street clothes on the bench.

 

[Kings Faithful]

I would have a hard time watching Martin light it up on another team...

 

[bajaden]

I think Sergio and Udoka could get pushed to 0 time. Beno would lose some as well as Tyreke, Casspi, Noc, and Greene.

take last nights min

Beno 33
Casspi 30
Sergio 14
Donte 15
Noc 17
Tyreke 38

It would be more like

Tyreke 35
Martin 35
Casspi 15
Donte 15
Noc 15
Beno 25
Sergio 0

of course there will be nights with players that are ineffective that would get less min and others with more. thats what needs to happen. Say Kevin is way off then he don't need to be out there for 35 or if he is getting rocked on defense same with anybody. Just wish we had another big.

Lest we forget, Garcia is also coming back. I know its been speculated that he'll have a harder time getting back up to snuff because of atrophy to his muscles. But with the soft cast and the ability to take if on and off, he may return quicker than we thought. So there are more minutes that need to be figured out. Someone needs to go, in my humble opinion.

 

[bajaden]

I would have a hard time watching Martin light it up on another team...

That would depend on what we get for him..There are several schools of thought on which way to go. If your happy with the core group we have now and you don't want to disrupt it, then decide between trading either Martin or Cisco. Martin makes the most money, and he has the most value. Especially for a contending team looking for that one more piece to get over the hump. So we would probably get more in return for him. Not so true with Cisco. I'm sure there are teams that could use him, but he by himself isn't going to bring us anyone of sigificance. On the other hand, Cisco is the more flexable of the two. he can play three positions, whereas Martin can only truely play one. In other words, it would be easier to find minutes for Cisco without disrupting the whole thing.

Or, you keep Martin and plug him into the lineup. Maybe cut back on his minutes to try and limit injuries. If so then I would try and trade Nocioni or Cisco. We don't need them both. Noc probably has the greater value.

One last thing. Its constantly being noted that Martin is an efficient scorer taking only 14 to 16 shots a game to score 25 to 30 points a game. Just remember that if he goes to the freethrow line 12 times or 14 times a game, he's also taking 6 or 7 more shots than the boxscore lists. Thats not a knock on him. All I'm saying that when you add in the freethrows to his shots taken, he's close to average for shots taken by scorers around the league. He's still better than avearge, but he's close.

 

[Andre87]

seriously that K-Mart's bashing and hating got too ridiculous and absolutely out of hand. The guy played only 5 games this year - that's way too little to tell how well the team clicks with him or Reke plays with him! Give him a break already.

 

[Uncia03]

After watching the past few games the sense that Tyreke is 'taking turns' at PG with either Beno or Sergio on the floor continues to grow for me.

It seems as if he'll play PG for 1/2 possessions, then he'll sit back and let the other play PG for a possession or two, before taking back the PG duties.

I think it's a testament to how hard we've been playing that we've got a few wins, but it seems to me that Tyreke is having to figure out how to be a point guard, and it's a bit difficult when he's having to do that while Beno or Sergio is on the floor with him.

I know we all have concerns on whether the offense will flow properly if we've got Kevin and Tyreke on the floor with Noc/JT/Hawes rounding out the team.
But the advantage in my mind for such a lineup is that there isn't any question as to who the PG is. So if Tyreke brings up his level of play we, know we've got our future PG, and we can look to bringing in that big man we need/moving Noc to clear room for Donte/Casspi/trade Beno while his value is high, ect.

If Tyreke sinks in such a situation, then we know that having another ball-handler on the floor is the ideal scenario, and we'll make adjustments to our roster to accomodate that.

I truly believe that Kevin wants to win. So I don't believe that there will be too much of an issue with him taking a few steps back if it helps put the team in position to win more basketball games. I also believe that we'll see him continue to step up on the defensive end. Once Kevin gets back I actually feel that he'll make the necessary adjustments, so the real pressure will be on Tyreke to show us that he can handle the PG duties and keep our offense in a flow which will allow us to win games. I also feel confident that Tyreke will rise to that challenge.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

One last thing. Its constantly being noted that Martin is an efficient scorer taking only 14 to 16 shots a game to score 25 to 30 points a game. Just remember that if he goes to the freethrow line 12 times or 14 times a game, he's also taking 6 or 7 more shots than the boxscore lists. Thats not a knock on him. All I'm saying that when you add in the freethrows to his shots taken, he's close to average for shots taken by scorers around the league. He's still better than avearge, but he's close.

Actually, he's not close to average, by any reasonable definition of "close". True Shooting% (you can find it at www.basketball-reference.com, if not other sites) does take free throws into account, and according to TS%, Martin (career) is tied for 14th most efficient shooter in NBA/ABA history. All time. He's tied with Nash, he's 2 ten-thousandths of a point behind Amare, and everybody else ahead of him is retired. He's tied for second among current players...that's way better than average.

 

[AriesMar27]

Actually, he's not close to average, by any reasonable definition of "close". True Shooting% (you can find it at www.basketball-reference.com, if not other sites) does take free throws into account, and according to TS%, Martin (career) is tied for 14th most efficient shooter in NBA/ABA history. All time. He's tied with Nash, he's 2 ten-thousandths of a point behind Amare, and everybody else ahead of him is retired. He's tied for second among current players...that's way better than average.

yeah... we as kings fans have overrated him so much that he is underrated. if he didnt play for such a bad team he would be a monster... can you imagine martin playing for the cavs instead of parker and moon? he would still average 24 ppg if not more(possibly 30ppg)... i could easily see him being the leading scorer on that team. i doubt lebron would mind only having to score 24ppg while averaging 10+ apg and he would playing with martin and williams. thats probably the only way that lebron will ever average a triple double for a season is if he plays with a player like martin.

we say that sg is the easiest position to fill but it isnt. martin is no slouch on the court no matter how hard we criticize him for being one dimensional. that one dimension goes a long way on a good team. like my cavs example, we know what martin can do, he would easily go down in history as one of the greatest sidekicks in nba history if he played with lebron. not every good player on a bad team is a bad player. martin is easily top 5 at his position. there are only 5 or 6 teams where he wouldnt be the starting sg.

the same can not be said for the rest of our team. beno has been balling but he would be hard pressed to find a team where he would be the starting pg. he isnt even a lock for starting pg on his own team. the fact that people are questioning what we should do with martin is crazy. he is probably one of the few starting players in this league that wouldnt have a problem adapting his game to new lineups... he plays just as well without the ball as he does with the ball because all he does is score.

 

[Bricklayer]

Keivn Martin is to "monsters" what a chihuahua is to a pack of wolves.

We had this similar conversation when it came time to trade Peja. The same "oh noes! I cannot watch Peja light it up for another team! I wouldn't want to face him 4x a year!" I laughed. People are silly sometimes.

Kevin's a good player. A zero time all star leading scorer on a 17 win team good player. Find him the right team, with the right stars ahead of him and the right coach and he can win. He can be part of a winning team. He's not a cancer. But he will never NEVER be the reason WHY that team is winning. And so "oh noes! I can't watch him be elsewhere!" is just sad. If its better for us, let him be elsewhere. If its not, let him stay. Either way I am not he least bit scared of Kevin, and neither is anybody else in this league.

 

[bajaden]

seriously that K-Mart's bashing and hating got too ridiculous and absolutely out of hand. The guy played only 5 games this year - that's way too little to tell how well the team clicks with him or Reke plays with him! Give him a break already.

You care to explain to me where the bashing and hating are? This has nothing to do with bashing or hating Martin. It has to do with how he fits on the team when he comes back, which is an unknown. It also has to do with his value if he were to be traded. This is mostly posts about how to help the team. Some good, some not so good, but for the most part all well intended. But it has nothing to do with hating, which should be reserved for Hitler and company..

 

[VF21]

You care to explain to me where the bashing and hating are? This has nothing to do with bashing or hating Martin. It has to do with how he fits on the team when he comes back, which is an unknown. It also has to do with his value if he were to be traded. This is mostly posts about how to help the team. Some good, some not so good, but for the most part all well intended. But it has nothing to do with hating, which should be reserved for Hitler and company..

How many threads would you like me to link to for you?

I think the poster was referring to the multiple occasions of Martin bashing that HAVE gone on, not particularly in this thread. There are some posters who have gone at Martin quite aggressively, called him names, etc. that I know I didn't think were based on anything other than the need to find a face to put on the dart board.

And sorry, but there have been occasions where the comments were pretty vehement and hateful.

Now that we've cleared that up, can we just return to the topic at hand?

 

[bajaden]

Actually, he's not close to average, by any reasonable definition of "close". True Shooting% (you can find it at www.basketball-reference.com, if not other sites) does take free throws into account, and according to TS%, Martin (career) is tied for 14th most efficient shooter in NBA/ABA history. All time. He's tied with Nash, he's 2 ten-thousandths of a point behind Amare, and everybody else ahead of him is retired. He's tied for second among current players...that's way better than average.

OK, I stand corrected on where he is on the overall chart. My point is however is that he does take more than the shots that show up on the stats list. So when your figuring out to spread the shots around, you have to take that into consideration. As I said, this wasn't intended as a knock on Martin. Merely pointing out that you just can't say that he takes only 16 shots a game when you go about dividing up shots.

 

[AriesMar27]

Keivn Martin is to "monsters" what a chihuahua is to a pack of wolves.

We had this similar conversation when it came time to trade Peja. The same "oh noes! I cannot watch Peja light it up for another team! I wouldn't want to face him 4x a year!" I laughed. People are silly sometimes.

Kevin's a good player. A zero time all star leading scorer on a 17 win team good player. Find him the right team, with the right stars ahead of him and the right coach and he can win. He can be part of a winning team. He's not a cancer. But he will never NEVER be the reason WHY that team is winning. And so "oh noes! I can't watch him be elsewhere!" is just sad. If its better for us, let him be elsewhere. If its not, let him stay. Either way I am not he least bit scared of Kevin, and neither is anybody else in this league.

i could care less where he plays, be it with the kings or any other team in the league. id rather see him on a good team just to see how good he really is. i would do backflips all the way to the bank if martin somehow ended up on the cavs... that would be awesome. but you are right he will never be the man... but he could be the ultimate sidekick to a real superstar like lebron. he could elevate martins game to the pippen sidekick level of players... he is a legit 24ppg scorer and does so in an efficient way. no team could double lebron off of their sg... lebron would take over the world. (evil supervillan laugh)MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....