Why Not Trade Martin While His Value Is High?

[fxhsurjono]

now don't get me wrong, i love martin, i liked him when we drafted him, i've been a kings fan for most of my life, i believe he's the most underrated scorer in the league, but why not trade him now while his value is high? we are rebuilding no? Kmart will be turning 26 next season, and being realistically we wont be good for another 4 years maybe 5. so that means he'll be 30 by then. now to fully rebuild we need to totally commit to that, not like in the past when we had bibby artest and miller and we were see-sawwing back and forth if this team was going or comming. imo we should of traded bibby and peja when webber was gone. because we didnt' have the personel to win a championship anyway so why waste seasons having early 20's picks in the draft when if we traded them for youngsters and picks we'd be back in contention now, seriously we can trade Kmart for another pick this year to potentially pick another building block. look at okc when they traded allen for green, or the blazers when they traded for broy. we need new young blood. i'd be much more happier when our team is in full rebuild mode, not half assing and can't decide if what we're doing.
and despite what people are saying about this draft, it may lack superstar potential, but its deep as hell! there are many quality players in this draft.
heres some the potential scenarios that i'd liek GP to pull the trigger on:

Trade Kmart to the Wolves, who need a SG to go with AlJeff for their 8 and 18th pick, also we'd throw beno in to shed salary.

with the 4th and 8th pick i'd like to draft, jrue and tyreke or jennings or harden. i personally would liek jrue and tyreke in the backcourt. that backcourt would do damage. see (isiah thomas & joe dumars) and with an extra pick at 18th you can draft james johnson, earl clark, austin daye to fill the need at SF and with our 23rd pick i'd like to draft Gani Lawal or BJ Mullens ( they're both projected to be there at 18th ).

this is a win win situation. we get more youth and building blocks, we get rid of a bad contract in beno. we get depth in positions and theyr young.
why not?

i'd also liek to trade nocioni & frisco for picks, either late first or 2nd or future picks. this will benifit us for the future. why the hell do we have only $8 mill under the cap when were the worst team in the NBA! we need to shed salary! look at OKC, Grizz, Blazers they rebuild through the draft, and had so much cap space for flexibility. lets take a page out of Kevin Pritchard's book and build through the draft. and we all know GP is a draft genius, but we haven't had the luxury of having multiple picks in the draft like the blazers did. look at the blazers recent draft history, webster, roy, lamarcus, oden, fernandez, bayless, batum. that can be us this year and for the next few years!

 

[Rookie]

There's a story about a wise Indian chief looking for someone to marry his daughter. Two men came up. One man said he has a hut, some cattles and a farm that they could live on. Another man said he would offer him many huts, with lots of cattles and a big farm but not at this time.

The chief give the second man the boot and marry his daughter to the first guy.

(It went something like that...I'm not all that good at story telling and not good with English.)

Unless you think KMart stinks and need to be traded...I don't see why we would trade someone we know is a good player for some unknown.

 

[mac]

The thing is you need veterans on a playoff team. We can become competitive in less than 5 years and Martin will be a key player then, hopefully not as the 1st option but the 2nd option through a big FA signing. We can still keep trading him open, but not for picks and stuff IMO. Especially not in this year's draft

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

I really dont think Martins value is as high as it can be. I look for him to have a really effective season this year, you could kind of tell his ankle was giving him problems alot last year. He is a really REALLY dynamic offensive player that a team like ours shouldnt trade right now. He can be a top 10 scorer in this league and he we have him signed to a very reasonable contract.

 

[Bricklayer]

I really dont think Martins value is as high as it can be. I look for him to have a really effective season this year, you could kind of tell his ankle was giving him problems alot last year. He is a really REALLY dynamic offensive player that a team like ours shouldnt trade right now. He can be a top 10 scorer in this league and he we have him signed to a very reasonable contract.

He already is a Top 10 scorer in the league, alas he is so soft and one dimensional and requires so much help from his teammates to achieve that status that he has all the impact of wet tissue paper. His +/- perennially hovers around 0, and this year was a blazing +2.4, tied for 9th on the team with Beno bleeping Udrih.

As for the general proposition -- trade Martin? Yes, sure, maybe. He is the sort of "star" you can win 17 games with. But it absolutely has to be the right deal. I've mentioned before I would have done it to get John Wall. There have been several other proposals to do it to secure the #2 or #3 pick in this draft and insure we get Rubio...those are more questionable and require real Rubio belief, although if you bring back enders as well and free up free agency money you may be able to sign a Kevin level guy right back. But for the #8 and #18? Not in this draft, nor really in most drafts. Kevin is a borderline star player, if you are going to trade him you need to at least have a chance of getting a star type player back. By the time you hit #8 in a draft, let alone #18, those are becoming quite scarce. I would only do that if I had a very specific target at #8 -- a potential star that had somehow slipped (and that I had somehow let go at #4). You don't just burn a Kevin Martin type asset for depth.

BTW, I think the OPs proposal is on the right track trying to nab picks and shed Beno's salary, but its not enough to burn your #1 trade asset over.

 

[rainmaker]

While Kevins lack of defense and intensity annoy's me sometimes, I'm not looking to trade him yet, unless it is an offer we really can't refuse. I think his ankle played a role in his lack of defense last year, and Beno played a huge role in his decline in FG%. I would like to see what Kevin does next season on a healthy ankle playing along side a real nba pg. I think sometimes people underestimate how much of an effect playing with a pg like beno can bring everyone's level of play down.

That being said, if we are seeing the same old Kevin, soft when finishing in the lane, and no improvement on the defensive end, then I would consider trading him by the trade deadline. But if he comes out and has a good first half to the season, and we see imporovement, meaning his ankle really was bothering him last year, than we keep him around. I really do believe with the continued maturation of Spencer and Jt, and the addition of a quality pg, and the overall talent around him improving, Kevin's game will flourish and he will be an important piece of our nucleus for years to come.

 

[Oskor]

i believe he's the most underrated scorer in the league, but why not trade him now while his value is high?

If he is underrated how is his value gonna be high? I know plenty of GMs would love to have him but just thought it was funny.

i'd be much more happier when our team is in full rebuild mode, not half assing and can't decide if what we're doing.

Half assing? Is a 16 win season a half azz rebuild mode? And we didn't even tank like most teams... we truly suck. The rebuild mode is here and Martin is a piece of that rebuild. I'm all for trading him if it can get us something very nice in return. But to trade him just to be in "full rebuild" mode is stupid considering he is a young stud with at LEAST 5 more good years (I just jinxed it didn't I?).

 

[nbrans]

The reason you don't trade Kevin Martin is that he's a young good player on a reasonable contract relative to his production. He's already the type of player you could hope to obtain in a trade, so trading him is redundant unless someone gets stupid and trades you another young player who is better.

 

[bajaden]

There's a story about a wise Indian chief looking for someone to marry his daughter. Two men came up. One man said he has a hut, some cattles and a farm that they could live on. Another man said he would offer him many huts, with lots of cattles and a big farm but not at this time.

The chief give the second man the boot and marry his daughter to the first guy.

(It went something like that...I'm not all that good at story telling and not good with English.)

Unless you think KMart stinks and need to be traded...I don't see why we would trade someone we know is a good player for some unknown.

Why don't you try: " A bird in hand, is better than two in the bush "

 

[Rookie]

Why don't you try: " A bird in hand, is better than two in the bush "

Yeah that would be better...quick and to the point.

 

[SacKings7]

The Wolves actually have the 6th pick, not the 8th. But why would we do this, in a weak draft no less? If Martin was getting old, then I'd consider it (like the Ray Allen deal 2 years ago), but this is crazy at this point. And I'm not overly against trading Martin either.

 

[bajaden]

I'm not trying to throw a fly into the ointment, well yes I guess I'am, but when I last checked, Martin and Beno are going to make a combined 16 mil next year. Now I know that the T Wolves are under the cap, but they're not 16 mil under the cap. That would mean we would have to take someone back in return. So who do you propose we take back?

 

[Jerryaki]

i'd be okay with settling for al jefferson.

 

[bajaden]

i'd be okay with settling for al jefferson.

Done deal!!!

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

He already is a Top 10 scorer in the league, alas he is so soft and one dimensional and requires so much help from his teammates to achieve that status that he has all the impact of wet tissue paper. His +/- perennially hovers around 0, and this year was a blazing +2.4, tied for 9th on the team with Beno bleeping Udrih.

As for the general proposition -- trade Martin? Yes, sure, maybe. He is the sort of "star" you can win 17 games with. But it absolutely has to be the right deal. I've mentioned before I would have done it to get John Wall. There have been several other proposals to do it to secure the #2 or #3 pick in this draft and insure we get Rubio...those are more questionable and require real Rubio belief, although if you bring back enders as well and free up free agency money you may be able to sign a Kevin level guy right back. But for the #8 and #18? Not in this draft, nor really in most drafts. Kevin is a borderline star player, if you are going to trade him you need to at least have a chance of getting a star type player back. By the time you hit #8 in a draft, let alone #18, those are becoming quite scarce. I would only do that if I had a very specific target at #8 -- a potential star that had somehow slipped (and that I had somehow let go at #4). You don't just burn a Kevin Martin type asset for depth.

BTW, I think the OPs proposal is on the right track trying to nab picks and shed Beno's salary, but its not enough to burn your #1 trade asset over.

eh, I have to disagree with some of your points. He IS one dimensional in the sense that he is only an offensive player, but his offense is very diverse. He gets players in foul trouble, takes it to the rim and can shoot the three. Im also not sure you can say his teammates help him. Considering our team is pretty bad, I think with better players that can take the attention away from him he can be a even better player. And finally, If you believe he is already a top 10 offensive player ( wont disagree ) he isnt getter nearly as much money as the other 9.


Im not really saying he is untradeable.. but im also not sure I'd trade him for an unproven player, we deffinetly have bigger fish to fry.

 

[fnordius]

I'm not trying to throw a fly into the ointment, well yes I guess I'am, but when I last checked, Martin and Beno are going to make a combined 16 mil next year. Now I know that the T Wolves are under the cap, but they're not 16 mil under the cap. That would mean we would have to take someone back in return. So who do you propose we take back?

Mike Miller + Brian Cardinal ($17.5M total) are enders this year, not that it makes the deal proposed sound much more appealing.

 

[Bricklayer]

eh, I have to disagree with some of your points. He IS one dimensional in the sense that he is only an offensive player, but his offense is very diverse. He gets players in foul trouble, takes it to the rim and can shoot the three. Im also not sure you can say his teammates help him. Considering our team is pretty bad, I think with better players that can take the attention away from him he can be a even better player. And finally, If you believe he is already a top 10 offensive player ( wont disagree ) he isnt getter nearly as much money as the other 9.

That's because he doesn't particularly help you win. A one dimensional softie scorer who flops around to score cheap points in the first three quarters of games, doesn't appear to play through pain, and has no leadership ability -- yeah, that's what elite teams are made of. I'm not in fact entirely convinced he's not subtly cancerous -- when your leading scorer refuses to play defense, that bleeds. When he is aloof and full of himself and provides no leadership, that leaves you adrift.

As an aside -- I did not say he was a Top 10 offensive player. He's not a Top 20 offensive player, let alone Top 10. Top 10 offensive players score when it matters, in the face of double teams, while making everybody else better. You build teams around their abilities and punch people in the mouth with their unstoppable skills. That ain't Kevin. But he is a top 10 scorer by the numbers alone.

In any case putting any sort of excessive value on a fully developed player of that ilk that "leads" you to a 17 win season, and may only have been on court for 9 or 10 of those wins, is just ridiculous at this point. He's just not that valuable to us. But you have to balance that with his likely value around the league. Even KT, by sake of being an ender, finally has some potential value for us in trade. I never want to see KT play another minute for the Kings, and if I never see Kevin flop for us again I won't lose a minute's sleep over it if that's what happens. But that does not mean that I want to see either asset burned without us getting back market value. Neither guy has to go until and unless we get the right deal. Any objections I have to a Kevin trade have nothing to do with Kevin and everything to do with the Kings strategic position.

 

[Bricklayer]

Mike Miller + Brian Cardinal ($17.5M total) are enders this year, not that it makes the deal proposed sound much more appealing.

Actually...it does. Not that I am convinced that I would do it, but its the other thing you need to see.

In any sort of Kevin for picks scenario the second prong of the attack is/should always be caproom. The idea being that if you free up major caproom, then you have the potential to get your extra draft picks AND still sign another star level player with the extra money. In essence, if it works out in such a scenario you trade Kevin Martin for Kevin Martin, the #6 pick, and the #18 pick. But the free agency thing is not guaranteed of course, and it would be nice if one of your picks had a chance to be a major player.

If for instance things fell in place for this:

#4- (Rubio?)
#6- (Harden?)
#18- (Clark/Williams?)
#23- (Teague?)
#31- ?

We of course struggle throught hte year while building then add next summer:

$20 million under cap
Pick #1-#9
Pick #31-39

You would be talking about Spencer, Jason, Greene, SEVEN draft picks with a chance to stick (including 3 Top 10s), a potential big $$ free agent, or two lesser ones (or a star acquired at the deadline for our enders and some of the kids/picks), and Cisco and Noc.

Its interesting. Scary expansion team stuff, but if you drafted well you could really be rolling and pulling a Portland in a couple of years. Alternately you have all the young pieces stacked up to try something like what Boston did.

 

[Kingster]

I don't think his value is that high. It's hard to say a guy is very good when his team had the worst record in the league. His value will increase as the team starts winning. Until then, he needs to understand that he isn't as good as he thinks he is, and he better start working his A$$ off on defense so that we can win over 25 games next year.

 

[dj3ptspecialist44]

Here we go with this BS trade K-Mart thread we have one of these like what once every 2 weeks. Get serious he isn't getting traded unless you get talent above and beyond him and there's few of those in the NBA. Again say what you want about his defense, but again hardly anyone plays defense in the NBA. Secondly you are only as good as your team defense is as well as the scheme. People who play basketball and know it understand that you could be Bruce Bowen times 100, but after the on ball defense is done and you have force your man to an area of a court and your help isn't there well the defense you have played means nothing. I seemed to remember a certain K-mart constantly getting off the ball steals and also playing some pretty good Defense a year ago when we had artest and won 36 games I believe. The talent is there we need someone to really let not just K-mart zone in on D, but the whole team and truly mean it. But trade K-Mart I want to smoke what you are smoking. K-Mart is top 15 to 20 players in this league defense or not. And you always cry about how a star doesn't want to come to our team yet we have a damn star and you want to trade him. Yes K-Mart is a star. Say what you want about the win record even Kobe couldn't win until you surrounded him with players. Same thing with Michael Jordan.

 

[bajaden]

Actually...it does. Not that I am convinced that I would do it, but its the other thing you need to see.

In any sort of Kevin for picks scenario the second prong of the attack is/should always be caproom. The idea being that if you free up major caproom, then you have the potential to get your extra draft picks AND still sign another star level player with the extra money. In essence, if it works out in such a scenario you trade Kevin Martin for Kevin Martin, the #6 pick, and the #18 pick. But the free agency thing is not guaranteed of course, and it would be nice if one of your picks had a chance to be a major player.

If for instance things fell in place for this:

#4- (Rubio?)
#6- (Harden?)
#18- (Clark/Williams?)
#23- (Teague?)
#31- ?

We of course struggle throught hte year while building then add next summer:

$20 million under cap
Pick #1-#9
Pick #31-39

You would be talking about Spencer, Jason, Greene, SEVEN draft picks with a chance to stick, a potential big $$ free agent, or two lesser ones, and Cisco and Noc.

Its interesting. Scary expansion team stuff, but if you drafted well you could really be rolling and pulling a Portland in a couple of years.

You know if we had an arena deal in place, I would be all for it. I'm just not sure that the Maloofs can take another year of bleeding. However I did hear somewhere that they actually made money last year. Maybe I dreamed it.

As an aside. Call me crazy, but in some ways I like Miller better than Martin. He's a good shooter, tougher, and at least trys to play defense. He'd probably play in more games too.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

You know if we had an arena deal in place, I would be all for it. I'm just not sure that the Maloofs can take another year of bleeding. However I did hear somewhere that they actually made money last year. Maybe I dreamed it.

I think they expect to make money next year...that was a quote from one of the Maloofs on a radio interview not too long back.

 

[Bricklayer]

You know if we had an arena deal in place, I would be all for it. I'm just not sure that the Maloofs can take another year of bleeding. However I did hear somewhere that they actually made money last year. Maybe I dreamed it.

It bears some passing resemblance to both what we attemtped to do in 1990, and failed at (although the ploy did directly result in the acquisition of Mitch Richmond), and what we did in 1998 and succeeded at rather brilliantly. Clean house. Load up on youth. Swap out your main player(s). Get free agent money. But as the differing results of 1990 and 1998 show, it can go either way.

As an aside. Call me crazy, but in some ways I like Miller better than Martin. He's a good shooter, tougher, and at least trys to play defense. He'd probably play in more games too.

I won't call you crazy -- he's a much better rounded player, and having he, Cisco and Noc running the 2/3 would actually give you a trio of skilled all around guys who do a little of everything. But without an unstoppable calling card in any one area he's a support staff guy, and his quickness deficiencies make him as big of a liability on that end as Kevin.

 

[fnordius]

I'm just not sure that the Maloofs can take another year of bleeding. However I did hear somewhere that they actually made money last year. Maybe I dreamed it.

I don't have the answer, but here's another perspective, from last week's Boston Globe. Speaking about WNBA teams...

"They're not generating as much, but they're not losing as much, either," says CNBC sports business analyst Darren Rovell. "The reward is less, risk is less. You're not going to see a team like the Sacramento Kings in the NBA, where they're losing double their payroll. People compare this to the NBA and it's not fair."

That would be $125M in losses last year, give or take ten million or so. Not a pretty picture.

 

[nbrans]

It bears some passing resemblance to both what we attemtped to do in 1990, and failed at (although the ploy did directly result in the acquisition of Mitch Richmond), and what we did in 1998 and succeeded at rather brilliantly. Clean house. Load up on youth. Swap out your main player(s). Get free agent money. But as the differing results of 1990 and 1998 show, it can go either way.

Not quite the same thing though. 1990's strategy was loading up draft picks in a terrible draft year. 1998 was a mix of drafting, free agency, and trading for a certain power forward who was enigmatic at that point, yes, but was already a proven 20/10 guy.

Blowing up what little the team has for a 1990 pure-draft strategy, I think, would probably have the same result as it did back then, particularly since this draft is so weak.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I like the boldness of it, but you only do something like this when you really believe in the value you'd be getting back. Like Brick said, it can really pay off or it can really blow up in your face, perhaps this draft isn't the best time to do something like that. However, if you're going to run a successful rebuilding mode you have to take a big risk at some point.

 

[Bricklayer]

Not quite the same thing though. 1990's strategy was loading up draft picks in a terrible draft year. 1998 was a mix of drafting, free agency, and trading for a certain power forward who was enigmatic at that point, yes, but was already a proven 20/10 guy.

Blowing up what little the team has for a 1990 pure-draft strategy, I think, would probably have the same result as it did back then, particularly since this draft is so weak.

Well again as proposed its not a pure draft stategy -- the free agency/cap room is a clear second prong here, which is why it had some similarity to 1998. We could afford a Vlade or two (the obvious dissimilarity is in 1998 we dumped Mitch/Kevin for a semi-proven star already in the league rather than picks and cap room).

I do agree its more 1990ish though, whihc is whay I would like to know who/what was going to be there at #6 before I'd be really comfortable with it.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

That would be $125M in losses last year, give or take ten million or so. Not a pretty picture.

That sounds ludicrous. It's almost like the guy just wanted to slag on a team and lashed out randomly figuring nobody would know better.

Why not just look at a few numbers? The NBA salary cap is set at 51% of team-average basketball-related income. With the salary cap expected to fall to the $57M range this year, that means last year the average team brought in about $112M of income. Let's say we're bad. Let's say we're horribly bad, and we bring in only $60M of income, barely half the average team. Our payroll was $67M. So we're $7M in the hole right there.

Now add in operating costs. How much? Can't be that much. Here's how I figure: The NBA is a business, and designed to make money. Practically every team is over the salary cap, which means that MORE than 51% of league-wide BRI is going out in salary. This would mean that the average team would need to spend LESS than 49% of BRI (that is, less than ~$57M this year) just for the league as a whole to break even. Now maybe last year the league as a whole didn't, but if teams can't stay in the neighborhood, the league would have folded long ago. So I find it hard to believe that an average team has an operating payroll over $50M.

We should have a less than average operating payroll, so $50M should be high. That along with the $7M above puts us, worst case, at $57M in the hole, which is hardly 2X payroll - it's not even 1X payroll. In fact, if we brought in $0 on the season (sold no tickets, didn't have a TV deal, sold no merchandise, etc.), we'd be...$117M in the hole, worst case.

That number is silly.

 

[Bricklayer]

Woah guys..wasn't sure if it had been misread the first time or not, now still not sure, but the way I read that that number he threw out was not about the Kings. He as using us to illustrate the WNBA's plight. Basically I guess some of those teams ARE losing twice their payroll, and the guy was saying that the WNBA is a different world because that's possible wiht their lesser $$ payrolls, whereas if a team in the NBA like the Kings did it, it would be a bloodbath. He wasn't suggesting we WERE doing it. He was suggesting that if we (or any NBA team) did we'd be out of business.

At least that's how I read it.

 

[VF21]

now don't get me wrong, i love martin, i liked him when we drafted him, i've been a kings fan for most of my life, i believe he's the most underrated scorer in the league, but why not trade him now while his value is high?...

You know, these kinds of initial posts almost always contain the same phrasing. "I've been a Kings fan most of my life BUT..."

Why not trade Martin while his value is high? I'll answer - because unless it's for a franchise player, you're shooting yourself in the foot.

This isn't a video game; this is the real deal. The Kings are rebuilding, and filling in gaps. Right now, Martin is a keeper who can score, draw defenses away so his teammates get open looks, AND he puts butts in the seats. You don't trade that away for chump change...

In passing, I'd also like to just remark that it's funny how many of these kind of things come from IPs in Los Angeles. Do we really have that many closet Kings fans coming out right now - during the Worship Kobe Bryant Show?????

Just a comment.