Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I just thought I should note there are no butts in the seats. 
All of these kinds of proposals are about ways to change that.
All of these kinds of proposals are about ways to change that.
Why Not Trade Martin While His Value Is High?
- Thread starter fxhsurjono
- Start date
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I think some of you are putting too much blame on Kevin. If he didn't have the worst supporting cast in the league, his weaknesses wouldn't show as much. Its easy to point out what Kevin isn't doing right for us when he is on such a bad team.
If you replaced Kevin with any 2 guard not named Kobe or Wade this team still doesn't win more than 20 games last year. But in a few years if JT and Hawes keep developing, and we get a good pg and a few more shooters, Kevin would actually have some help and his weaknesses wouldn't stick out so much.
I agree Kevin is definately not a natural leader, and hopefully he will improve in that area, as well as on defense, but he definately is not the biggest problem on this team. The biggest problem is not having a pg and our overall lack of talent. We fix those and Kevin will be just fine.
If you replaced Kevin with any 2 guard not named Kobe or Wade this team still doesn't win more than 20 games last year. But in a few years if JT and Hawes keep developing, and we get a good pg and a few more shooters, Kevin would actually have some help and his weaknesses wouldn't stick out so much.
I agree Kevin is definately not a natural leader, and hopefully he will improve in that area, as well as on defense, but he definately is not the biggest problem on this team. The biggest problem is not having a pg and our overall lack of talent. We fix those and Kevin will be just fine.
I just thought I should note there are no butts in the seats.
All of these kinds of proposals are about ways to change that.
I went to Arco last year and while the attendance wasn't anywhere close to what it used to be, there was still a hard-core group of Kings fans just waiting for something to happen on the court they could cheer about.
Moving Martin for anything less than a franchise player would be the final dagger for a number of those fans.
We're already turning back in the right direction with the acquisition of Hawes and JT and possibly Greene. I also like Nocioni although I know he's not that high on your list. I don't think we need to trade away one of our "veterans" and quite frankly, most of these proposals are better suited IMHO to one of the NBA video games, where you don't have to worry about things like ticket sales, jersey sales, adoration of young fans, etc.
But just my two cents here since I've learned there are very few trade proposals that actually look even the slightest bit interesting to me. That's why I didn't stick around in that instant GM game a while back.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Wasn't sure where I should post this, off topic, but it was remarkable.
Was looking up Kevin's clutch time stats before I made my assertion about him not being good down the stretch -- unsurprisingly the stats backed that up (his numbers fell across the board, he shot .375 in the clutch this year, turned the ball over 4.6 times per 48min, and did not record a single steal or block the entire season). But that wasn't the thing that grabbed my attention in that list. This was:
LeBron James, in the clutch this season (stats per 48):
55.9pts (.556FG% .421 3pt% .850 FT%) 14.3reb 12.6ast 3.5stl 1.7blk 4.8TO
I think I may forgive him the TOs.
Was looking up Kevin's clutch time stats before I made my assertion about him not being good down the stretch -- unsurprisingly the stats backed that up (his numbers fell across the board, he shot .375 in the clutch this year, turned the ball over 4.6 times per 48min, and did not record a single steal or block the entire season). But that wasn't the thing that grabbed my attention in that list. This was:
LeBron James, in the clutch this season (stats per 48):
55.9pts (.556FG% .421 3pt% .850 FT%) 14.3reb 12.6ast 3.5stl 1.7blk 4.8TO
I think I may forgive him the TOs.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Wasn't sure where I should post this, off topic, but it was remarkable.
Was looking up Kevin's clutch time stats before I made my assertion about him not being good down the stretch -- unsurprisingly the stats backed that up (his numbers fell across the board, he shot .375 in the clutch this year, turned the ball over 4.6 times per 48min, and did not record a single steal or block the entire season). But that wasn't the thing that grabbed my attention in that list. This was:
LeBron James, in the clutch this season (stats per 48):
55.9pts (.556FG% .421 3pt% .850 FT%) 14.3reb 12.6ast 3.5stl 1.7blk 4.8TO
I think I may forgive him the TOs.
Out of curiousity, where did you get those stats.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
My bad, I had the URL in my buffer, but forgot to paste it.
http://www.boston.com/sports/basket...as_sun_trying_to_ensure_bright_future/?page=2
Vlade4GM
All-Star
I went to Arco last year and while the attendance wasn't anywhere close to what it used to be, there was still a hard-core group of Kings fans just waiting for something to happen on the court they could cheer about.
Moving Martin for anything less than a franchise player would be the final dagger for a number of those fans.
We're already turning back in the right direction with the acquisition of Hawes and JT and possibly Greene. I also like Nocioni although I know he's not that high on your list. I don't think we need to trade away one of our "veterans" and quite frankly, most of these proposals are better suited IMHO to one of the NBA video games, where you don't have to worry about things like ticket sales, jersey sales, adoration of young fans, etc.
But just my two cents here since I've learned there are very few trade proposals that actually look even the slightest bit interesting to me. That's why I didn't stick around in that instant GM game a while back.
I don't think trading him for picks is a bad idea in and of itself, but doing it in this draft is not a good move.
Hmm, on three reads, I see that he may have intended to word it "you're not going to see a situation where an NBA team like the Sacramento Kings is losing double their payroll."
Still, poor poor poor phrasing.
TTown Kings
Bench
Buy low, sell high. K Mart isn't taking us to the promised land. I'm not sure trading him is the best idea, but should at least be considered. I mean c'mon, Petrie isn't gonna trade him for a bag of chips. Is it risky? Of course, but the bottom line is the team stinks with him anyway.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
It's not really about being willing to move him, it's about only doing it with the right opportunity. Show me a realistic trading opportunity that makes sense.
kingsfan1O
Prospect
Then what? Seeing Bosh bolt the hell out of Sacramento when his contract is due and leaving us without anything?
kingsfan1O
Prospect
Besides the initial trade is horrible value for Martin whether you guys underrate him or not. #8 (the #6 correctly) and #18 is nowhere near Martin's value. Why trade for two unknowns for a proven player in Martin?
To go with fairly credible-seeming reports, I think it's reasonable to believe that the Kings payroll was $67.2M last year (that's SI's figure, not hoopshype's), that they lost in excess of $20M, and that the Maloofs had to borrow somewhat over $13M from the NBA at > 8% interest. This isn't surprising, since the Kings have been in the top 1/2 of NBA payrolls since the early Webber era, and did little about it until very recently.
Going into next year, payroll will be $33.2M for the 10 players we're committed to retain, and another $4.5M or so for the 3 rookies. Add in another million for a standard benchwarmer, and we could have the lowest pay of any franchise in the league, roughly $38.7M. If they lost $20M last year, and revenues stayed the same in 2009-10, they'd be making enough that they might be able to pay back maybe half of the loan, and still break even. But revenues staying the same is far from guaranteed. They need to figure out something to get more butts in the seats. Trading Kevin for a couple of enders and (not very early) picks in a weak draft is not only a big financial gamble, but impossible without other adjustments, since that would give us a roster of at least 16. If past practice is any guide, Greene and the #31 pick would be waived at the end of the preseason... another year of "we just got older and worse so that we can rebuild later." And, while that might drop revenues immediately, that still wouldn't save the Maloofs any real money until the summer of 2010, so probably wouldn't appeal to them. My guess is that they want improvement NOW.
I think that's a fairly realistic appraisal of the financial situation. Unless some GM gets really stupid and offers us a very lopsided deal, I don't expect any major changes to payroll this year, beyond letting Kenny expire. Maybe we re-sign BJax for cheap.
Aw, phooey. I'm obviously missing out on the TDOS spirit WRT trade speculation.
Going into next year, payroll will be $33.2M for the 10 players we're committed to retain, and another $4.5M or so for the 3 rookies. Add in another million for a standard benchwarmer, and we could have the lowest pay of any franchise in the league, roughly $38.7M. If they lost $20M last year, and revenues stayed the same in 2009-10, they'd be making enough that they might be able to pay back maybe half of the loan, and still break even. But revenues staying the same is far from guaranteed. They need to figure out something to get more butts in the seats. Trading Kevin for a couple of enders and (not very early) picks in a weak draft is not only a big financial gamble, but impossible without other adjustments, since that would give us a roster of at least 16. If past practice is any guide, Greene and the #31 pick would be waived at the end of the preseason... another year of "we just got older and worse so that we can rebuild later." And, while that might drop revenues immediately, that still wouldn't save the Maloofs any real money until the summer of 2010, so probably wouldn't appeal to them. My guess is that they want improvement NOW.
I think that's a fairly realistic appraisal of the financial situation. Unless some GM gets really stupid and offers us a very lopsided deal, I don't expect any major changes to payroll this year, beyond letting Kenny expire. Maybe we re-sign BJax for cheap.
Aw, phooey. I'm obviously missing out on the TDOS spirit WRT trade speculation.
TTown Kings
Bench
Good break down there. Problem is, how realistic is the above expectation? The team isn't going to look that much different, at least the starters anyway. How can they realistically expect much improvement? It is what it is. We're not sending out a new 13 man squad next year. What they may want and what is possible are at opposite sides of the spectrum. I'm tired of the try and win now at the cost of the future approach. We're not winning many games next year either, time to face the facts.
Well, I didn't mean a strong team, I meant an end to losing money. Had we gotten the #1 pick, that'd probably have been a very realistic hope. Now it's up to Geoff to pull a rabbit out of his hat.
I'm not sure where you're finding the SI figures, as the latest team salary info I can find on their site is several years old (still has Bibby on the team).
At any rate, $33.2/10 players is not correct. ShamSports, which I've found to be the best site for salaries, has us at $45M, including the $2M owed Mikki for 8 players we are guaranteed bringing back (Hawes, Thompson, KT, Nocioni, Greene, Garcia, Martin, Udrih). $4.5M is about right for the three picks we have right now, but we'll need two benchwarmers to get to 13 players even then, so at $1M a pop, we're up to $51.5M at minimum (and if we were to resign McCants or Diogu it would presumably go up from there). That would presumably color your analysis some.
But I agree that I don't see any big changes in payroll. We'll hang out, a little bit under the cap, and if we don't trade KT, we'll have $11M coming off the books next summer.
Nighthawk1
Starter
I really don't mind trading K-Mart for the right package. Problem is everyone has different views of what the right package are.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I'm not in favor of trading Kevin right now, but for those who are, his stock is not very high this off season. As of right now, he has been left off the roster for the Team USA camp in July. He was a participant last year and recieved good reviews from the coaches, but his stock has dropped enough that he hasn't been asked to come back- as of right now.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Interesting...
That's what pissed me off about the lottery so much. Miami blatantly tanked, got no punishment for it, and ended up with the 2nd pick. We truly sucked, did not tank in any way and got stuck with the 4th pick.
kennadog
Dog On It!
Could that be because of his ankle that needs time to heal? I wouldn't be very happy if he did play and didn't get that ankle back to 100%.
Aenadin
Starter
well if we do trade martin... wizards would be enticed and be crazy not to take this proposal
martin
31st
for
Songalia
stevenson
5th pick
they have that all scoring team now..
we pick 4th and 5th
go rubio AND harden or tyreke evans...
you got a line up of
rubio/udrih
harden(or evans)/garcia
Nocioni/Greene
Thompson/diogu
Hawes/cedric simmons/Fesenko (assuming we sign him)
im not up for trading martin.. but if it does end up us having 2 top 10 picks i wouldnt argue...
martin
31st
for
Songalia
stevenson
5th pick
they have that all scoring team now..
we pick 4th and 5th
go rubio AND harden or tyreke evans...
you got a line up of
rubio/udrih
harden(or evans)/garcia
Nocioni/Greene
Thompson/diogu
Hawes/cedric simmons/Fesenko (assuming we sign him)
im not up for trading martin.. but if it does end up us having 2 top 10 picks i wouldnt argue...
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Yes they would be crazy not to take that..because we'd be crazy to do it.
Right team maybe, but wrong deal. I've mentioned Martin to the Wizards for their pick in the past, but that was back before the lottery when I thought it might turn out to be Top 3, and when I still thought John Wall might be entering the draft. Now down at #5 Martin is worth considerably more than just that, and there is no way in hell the balancing is for US to have to throw in one of our other picks. We'd be doing them a favor, and taking their bad contracts as well? Stil might be something there if we pursued it -- Arenas/Martin/Butler/Jamison is fool's gold, a fantasy league all offense team, but still might be too much to pass on for them. But what they could offer us to make it worth it is now in question. Certianly in this draft Martin > #5 alone, so they'd have to go to work to make their deal worht our time. If #6 + #18 + cap room is a borderline deal for us, #5 + their bad contracts + us throwing in our #31....why would we do that?
Right team maybe, but wrong deal. I've mentioned Martin to the Wizards for their pick in the past, but that was back before the lottery when I thought it might turn out to be Top 3, and when I still thought John Wall might be entering the draft. Now down at #5 Martin is worth considerably more than just that, and there is no way in hell the balancing is for US to have to throw in one of our other picks. We'd be doing them a favor, and taking their bad contracts as well? Stil might be something there if we pursued it -- Arenas/Martin/Butler/Jamison is fool's gold, a fantasy league all offense team, but still might be too much to pass on for them. But what they could offer us to make it worth it is now in question. Certianly in this draft Martin > #5 alone, so they'd have to go to work to make their deal worht our time. If #6 + #18 + cap room is a borderline deal for us, #5 + their bad contracts + us throwing in our #31....why would we do that?
Aenadin
Starter
the number 6 and 16th pick plus fillers intrigues me.. will MIN do it? another trade possibility could be
martin
31st
for
collison
atkins
3rd pick
they fill that guard position need... we get their 3rd pick.. draft rubio, draft hasheem thabeet with the 4... your dream bricky
then somehow snag 5th pick.. using kt udrih and greene
wed be draft day winners if that happens... 3,4,5,23 picks...
we will lose our "star" primary scorer. but we gain two top 5 picks... and another if wiz bites for the fifth.. its a risk but it will pay great dividends..
a line up of
Rubio/Lawson
Harden/Garcia
Nocioni/James johnson
Thompson/Diogu
Hawes/Thabeet
martin
31st
for
collison
atkins
3rd pick
they fill that guard position need... we get their 3rd pick.. draft rubio, draft hasheem thabeet with the 4... your dream bricky
then somehow snag 5th pick.. using kt udrih and greene
wed be draft day winners if that happens... 3,4,5,23 picks...
we will lose our "star" primary scorer. but we gain two top 5 picks... and another if wiz bites for the fifth.. its a risk but it will pay great dividends..
a line up of
Rubio/Lawson
Harden/Garcia
Nocioni/James johnson
Thompson/Diogu
Hawes/Thabeet
Last edited:
fxhsurjono
G-League
everyone is bashing on the draft prospects and i dont quite agree with that. if we do trade for the proposal i started this thread with, tyreke and rubio, harden, jennings or jrue, you guys honestly dont believe that any1 of the names i stated above will be as good as or better than kmart? be real. i dont agree with people saying this is a weak draft, because the players havent had a chance to play yet. and if not this draft when? is next years draft any better? you can't quite rank this draft class yet, they are unproven.
tyreke jrue and harden each of them reminded me bits and pieces of dwade, as i recall, every1 thought he was just gonna be solid not superstar status, they didnt know if he was a pg or a sg (tyreke, jrue, harden) comming out of marquette and look at him now. no one even called arenas until the second round and look at him another tweener (tyreke) and we told arenas he wouldnt get past us, and we drafted gerald wallace. my point is no one really knows how good a prospect can be and you guys bashing on these prospects is really unfair. look at JT i bet everyone was screaming at the tv when his name was called up. i know i was. and trust petrie, he'll do magic with multiple picks in the draft. and i said i would trade kmart if we shed salary and get picks didnt i? not only kmart for picks straight up. if we get exp and picks for this and the upcomming draft, well be set for the summer of '10. GP has done it in the 1998 y not do it in 2009
tyreke jrue and harden each of them reminded me bits and pieces of dwade, as i recall, every1 thought he was just gonna be solid not superstar status, they didnt know if he was a pg or a sg (tyreke, jrue, harden) comming out of marquette and look at him now. no one even called arenas until the second round and look at him another tweener (tyreke) and we told arenas he wouldnt get past us, and we drafted gerald wallace. my point is no one really knows how good a prospect can be and you guys bashing on these prospects is really unfair. look at JT i bet everyone was screaming at the tv when his name was called up. i know i was. and trust petrie, he'll do magic with multiple picks in the draft. and i said i would trade kmart if we shed salary and get picks didnt i? not only kmart for picks straight up. if we get exp and picks for this and the upcomming draft, well be set for the summer of '10. GP has done it in the 1998 y not do it in 2009
fxhsurjono
G-League
CaminoChaos
Bench
I don't know if this has come up yet and I don't have time to read all the Posts but I'd like to ask you all a Hypothetical question.
Would you trade KMart to the Clippers for #1 pick?
Note: I know they would have to give us some other garbage to make the salaries work. But generally speaking.
Would you trade KMart to the Clippers for #1 pick?
Note: I know they would have to give us some other garbage to make the salaries work. But generally speaking.
