Why is John Salmons starting?

[funkykingston]

I suppose the question could be extended further to ask why John Salmons is on the team at all, but that move was made and barring some unforeseen development (the Kings sign Kirilenko and amnesty him) he will be for the rest of the season.

Still, I have to question why Smart doesn't tap Garcia or Greene instead. I'm not enthralled with either of those options and I think it's obvious that Salmons is the most talented player of the three, but in terms of fit he's dreadful.

This team is clearly based around the talents of Cousins, Thornton and Evans. Ideally the PF spot would be manned by a defender/rebounder/weakside shot blocker and the SF spot by a defender/facilitator/3 point shooter.

Salmons has always been a good man defender if a little undersized relative to a lot of SFs and he had a few years as a +40% 3 pt shooter. But his defense and shooting have obviously slipped the last few years which makes his ball hogging/black hole tendencies all the less excusable.

Francisco is an effort defender but obviously a step down from Salmons and about the same as a long distance shooter. But he's much more willing passer and team oriented player.

Greene has much better size and a temperament suited to being a role player. He also flashes the potential of being a very good defender. Of course his problem is inconsistency (both defensively and as a shooter) and unfortunately a questionable work ethic/desire.

Neither Greene or Garcia are world beaters, but I think what this team needs more than anything from the SF position is a role player that doesn't dominate the ball and will help with offensive flow. Nothing on John Salmons' resume shows that he's the guy for this job.

 

[upinsmoke]

Because Donte is a D-league talent at best. Can't wait to get this guy off the roster to be honest, also Garcia would have to much trouble guarding the 3 spot. In reality we don't have a 3.

 

[Section 101]

Still, I have to question why Smart doesn't tap Garcia or Greene instead. I'm not enthralled with either of those options and I think it's obvious that Salmons is the most talented player of the three, but in terms of fit he's dreadful.

Cisco played well the first few games, but has been beyond horrible the last few. He had a pass go right threw his hands against the Magic.

Donte was playing real well before his Grandmother died. I think it's going to take a bit for him to get back to where he was playing.

 

[funkykingston]

Because Donte is a D-league talent at best. Can't wait to get this guy off the roster to be honest, also Garcia would have to much trouble guarding the 3 spot. In reality we don't have a 3.

I know people still have hope for Donte but I'm not one of them. At this point I think he is what he is. But I think my view is that while neither of them are guys that will do a lot to help this team win, Salmons is a guy who helps this team lose with his selfish play. And just like passing can be contagious, so can ballhogging.

 

[Glenn]

I suppose the question could be extended further to ask why John Salmons is on the team at all, but that move was made and barring some unforeseen development (the Kings sign Kirilenko and amnesty him) he will be for the rest of the season.

Still, I have to question why Smart doesn't tap Garcia or Greene instead. I'm not enthralled with either of those options and I think it's obvious that Salmons is the most talented player of the three, but in terms of fit he's dreadful.

This team is clearly based around the talents of Cousins, Thornton and Evans. Ideally the PF spot would be manned by a defender/rebounder/weakside shot blocker and the SF spot by a defender/facilitator/3 point shooter.

Salmons has always been a good man defender if a little undersized relative to a lot of SFs and he had a few years as a +40% 3 pt shooter. But his defense and shooting have obviously slipped the last few years which makes his ball hogging/black hole tendencies all the less excusable.

Francisco is an effort defender but obviously a step down from Salmons and about the same as a long distance shooter. But he's much more willing passer and team oriented player.

Greene has much better size and a temperament suited to being a role player. He also flashes the potential of being a very good defender. Of course his problem is inconsistency (both defensively and as a shooter) and unfortunately a questionable work ethic/desire.

Neither Greene or Garcia are world beaters, but I think what this team needs more than anything from the SF position is a role player that doesn't dominate the ball and will help with offensive flow. Nothing on John Salmons' resume shows that he's the guy for this job.

Yes, I wish he wasn't here. Now let's see how he plays when fully acclimated to the team. Last game he shot 8 times and hit 4. I don't know if that was by accident or by coaching plan. Offensively, this is all I want to see from him and that is simply because in a game that still uses one ball, he has three starters of higher offensive caliber that need the ball. If we ever get stuck with 2 of the 3 out of the game, he can step up his offense. Then I think we will be happy that he can score. BUT, the issue is can he limit himself to 8 shots going forward. If so, he is more valuable than any other SF on the team by far and will help the team moving forward.

At this point i am willing to wipe away all the bad memories I have of Salmons and see what happens in the future. This is the Smart era.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I suppose the question could be extended further to ask why John Salmons is on the team at all, but that move was made and barring some unforeseen development (the Kings sign Kirilenko and amnesty him) he will be for the rest of the season.

Please keep in mind that the amnesty period is closed. Nobody can be amnestied until next offseason.

 

[bluntsnbball]

I wouldnt mind at least seeing how Cisco would be with the first unit. He's a mediocre talent, but he is definitely a more team oriented player. He has looked rusty the last few games but what can you really expect when he's not getting any minutes?

It's a trade off with Salmons because while you get decent D, you get someone who tries to do too much on the offensive end. Garcia will be a step down in D, but he's gonna look to set guys up more than salmons does. Defense is still a major issue on this team, but Salmons is one of the most selfish players in the league. The dude never passes the ball!! if he does, its only because he tries to make something happen offensively and gets stuck, so he passes it out to set up the offense again.

 

[Section 101]

I know people still have hope for Donte but I'm not one of them. At this point I think he is what he is. But I think my view is that while neither of them are guys that will do a lot to help this team win, Salmons is a guy who helps this team lose with his selfish play. And just like passing can be contagious, so can ballhogging.

People really need to put things in perspective.

Donte is 23 years old. He came out of college after 1 year. He should be a rookie now. His first year was under Theus and Natt in a disastrous season. People wanted him to get minutes, but Natt didn't do it. His next 2 years were under Westfail who seemed to have it out of Donte. I don't think he has been the best positions to succeed.

But he has been more productive than Gerald Wallace's first 3 years with the Kings. So by all means just toss him away so another team has the chance to reap the benefits.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

You could also ask why is Thornton starting. One of Thornton/Salmons should come off the bench in my opinion. Having them both on the floor at the same time as Tyreke just isn't a recipe for good basketball. It seems like they tried to put together this team with the hopes of Salmons adapting his game to what the Kings need but much like leopards...Salmons don't change their spots.

 

[funkykingston]

Donte and Gerald Wallace are a little bit of an apples and oranges comparison. Gerald came into the league as a guy who got by an supreme physical talent who needed experience to develop into a more complete player. Experience he wasn't going to get on a contending Kings team that was focused on winning now rather than developing young players. At the time I advocated opening up Webber for the expansion draft and gambling that the Bobcats wouldn't take him but just for the bad PR alone that was never going to happen. But I digress.

Donte has had every opportunity to earn minutes on a young and talent poor Kings team. I'll grant you that he's had poor coaches, but he's also come in to camp out of shape and shown little to no growth to his game between seasons. He definitely should have stayed in Syracuse, but regardless of how much college experience a player has, I expect to see major growth between the first and second years and then again between the second and third. The only exception would be a young big man because they often take longer to emerge. Donte strikes me as a guy that is just happy to be in the NBA rather than one who really wants to focus on what it takes to be great. I like Donte and I'd love to see him take a big leap in his game. I'm just not expecting it to happen any more.

As for Salmons and Thornton, there's always going to be the argument that Thornton is best suited for being a sixth man. I can see that argument but disagree, especially on this team. He's a flat out scorer who does it in multiple ways, he just got rewarded with a substantial contract, he's 23 and on the upswing and he's shown he can deliver in the clutch. By contrast, Salmons is 32 and on the downswing and scores primarily by attacking off the dribble which congests the lane for Tyreke and Cousins.

If the argument is that one of either Thornton or Salmons needs to be removed from the starting lineup I'd bench Salmons every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

 

[Dime Dropper]

People really need to put things in perspective.

Donte is 23 years old. He came out of college after 1 year. He should be a rookie now. His first year was under Theus and Natt in a disastrous season. People wanted him to get minutes, but Natt didn't do it. His next 2 years were under Westfail who seemed to have it out of Donte. I don't think he has been the best positions to succeed.

But he has been more productive than Gerald Wallace's first 3 years with the Kings. So by all means just toss him away so another team has the chance to reap the benefits.

It's pretty obvious by now, and I wish I was wrong, that Donte has no intention of putting in the necessary work to be a difference-maker. He'll come off the bench from time to time and bring energy and a little athleticism, but he could have been so much more. Just one of those guys that are content. No hunger, no desire, no ambition to be great. It's a shame, because he has a lot of advantages. At this point I don't care whether he stays or goes. It may sound harsh, he's a nice person, but it annoys me that people can be so unmotivated.

 

[Section 101]

It's pretty obvious by now, and I wish I was wrong, that Donte has no intention of putting in the necessary work to be a difference-maker. He'll come off the bench from time to time and bring energy and a little athleticism, but he could have been so much more. Just one of those guys that are content. No hunger, no desire, no ambition to be great. It's a shame, because he has a lot of advantages. At this point I don't care whether he stays or goes. It may sound harsh, he's a nice person, but it annoys me that people can be so unmotivated.

The same thing was said about Wallace and was the reason he was unprotected.

 

[UK_King]

He's slumping; he's a quiet lethargic guy anyway so you can't tell whether he's giving 100% or not half the time.

But he can get hot; and he can play defense if he wants too. I don't think it's time to bench him yet, i just don't think it's possible.

 

[Fireplug]

Back to the original post...

Salmons is averaging .367 and 8.1 points a game as a starter.

For perspective, the averages for the starting small forwards John has begun the game against in the 9 games we have played is .545 shooting % and 14.4 points per game.

Is Salmons here to be a shooter? Ain't happening.
Is Salmons here to be a scorer? Ain't happening.
Is Salmons here to be a defensive stopper? Ain't happening.

 

[Section 101]

Back to the original post...

Salmons is averaging .367 and 8.1 points a game as a starter.

For perspective, the averages for the starting small forwards John has begun the game against in the 9 games we have played is .545 shooting % and 14.4 points per game.

Is Salmons here to be a shooter? Ain't happening.
Is Salmons here to be a scorer? Ain't happening.
Is Salmons here to be a defensive stopper? Ain't happening.

Problem is Salmons was never better than average when he played his best. It's all downhill now. Top 5 worst trades by Petrie. If Westfail wanted the trade Petrie should have vetoed.

 

[funkykingston]

Back to the original post...

Salmons is averaging .367 and 8.1 points a game as a starter.

For perspective, the averages for the starting small forwards John has begun the game against in the 9 games we have played is .545 shooting % and 14.4 points per game.

Is Salmons here to be a shooter? Ain't happening.
Is Salmons here to be a scorer? Ain't happening.
Is Salmons here to be a defensive stopper? Ain't happening.

Exactly. And I'd add that beyond the stats, Salmons style of play encourages ball hogging tendencies from the rest of the players on the floor with him. The Kings are the absolute worst team in the league in terms of assisted baskets. Only 42% percent of scores come from an assist. For the sake of perspective, the NBA average is 57.5%, the Celtics lead the league at 66% and the only other teams in the league under 50% are the woeful Wizards at 46% and the Grizzlies at 48%.

As Plug showed, his individual numbers are less than impressive and he's being outplayed by opposing SFs which only makes his black hole tendencies that much harder to forgive.

If I were in Smart's shoes I'd pull Donte aside and tell him that he was going to start the next game. And that if he could play high energy defense, keep the ball moving on offense while only taking open jumpers (whether he hits them or not) and trying to rebound that he'd start the game after that. And so on.

Because that's all that the Kings need at SF. A good defender and decent rebounder who is unselfish on offense and can make threes when left open.

 

[beb0p]

Is Salmons here to be a shooter? Ain't happening.
Is Salmons here to be a scorer? Ain't happening.
Is Salmons here to be a defensive stopper? Ain't happening.

Careful now. A few months ago, there are lots of people on this board who thought Salmon is just what the doctor ordered.

Back to the original question: Salmons is still starting because he is technically (on paper) the "best" SF this team has. If he plays halfway decent like the last game he may keep his starting gig, if he reverts back to form or if the Kings go on a losing streak I imagine he'll get send to the bench sooner than you think.

I predict Salmons will lose his starter spot midway thru the season and will be traded either in season or during the summer with other pieces in another team shakeup.

 

[Dime Dropper]

Careful now. A few months ago, there are lots of people on this board who thought Salmon is just what the doctor ordered.

Back to the original question: Salmons is still starting because he is technically (on paper) the "best" SF this team has. If he plays halfway decent like the last game he may keep his starting gig, if he reverts back to form or if the Kings go on a losing streak I imagine he'll get send to the bench sooner than you think.

I predict Salmons will lose his starter spot midway thru the season and will be traded either in season or during the summer with other pieces in another team shakeup.

I have absolutely no idea why you keep running with this. No one was ecstatic over the trade. There was a small minority who were OK with the trade, simply because we needed a SF and Salmons, in theory, is a solid defender. The term "lots" is simply incorrect. And for what it's worth, I was not in that minority. I hated the trade, but I've seen you say this a couple times and it's just not true.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

When we first re-acquired Salmons I thought it was a decent move to fill the role at SF...I also thought this move hindered on our ability to re-sign Dalembert to plug up the middle on defense and allow Salmons to play the role of bandit and clear out on steals and feed the ball to our wings. THAT hasn't worked and now we play small ball which wont work with Salmons as our starting 3. I think Garcia would bring a better energy as starter to this current bunch of Kings and the way we're forced to play right now. We need someone to push the ball, someone to get out on the break...and Salmons isn't that guy.

 

[kingsboi]

I'm as confused as you OP on why he's starting. He's not a 30 plus minute starter anymore, he needs to come off the bench as numerous people have mentioned. Too bad that ain't gonna happen :[

 

[rainmaker]

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

I'm as confused as you OP on why he's starting. He's not a 30 plus minute starter anymore, he needs to come off the bench as numerous people have mentioned. Too bad that ain't gonna happen :[

Yup...he isnt a 30+ min starter, but as we already know is even more useless off the bench...so its pick your poison I guess.

 

[IfAt1st]

Salmons KILLING the Kings out on the floor again tonight - guys are driving right past him with no difficulty, and he's missing WIDE OPEN 3's that the entire offense is predicated around getting.

The problem is, Greene and Cisco would be no better, I think. Both of them simply are not NBA starters.

The Kings have little choice here - they HAVE to keep playing John and hopes he gets his head out of his ***.
Or get a real NBA starting SF, like I've been requesting for a long time now...

 

[beb0p]

I have absolutely no idea why you keep running with this. No one was ecstatic over the trade. There was a small minority who were OK with the trade, simply because we needed a SF and Salmons, in theory, is a solid defender. The term "lots" is simply incorrect. And for what it's worth, I was not in that minority. I hated the trade, but I've seen you say this a couple times and it's just not true.

I've said it a couple times because the topics call for it. Like this subject, it's about Salmons, it's only natural to bring up the trade because it's the major moves we made during the off season.

I certainly don't think mentioning one thing a couple times constitute "keep going with it." "Keep going with it" means I keep bringing it up which is definitely not the case.

And for the record, many posters did in fact liked the Salmons trade at the time. Even those with skin in the game aren't contesting it. Why are you the one who's doing revisionist history?

 

[Prince_XY]

Exactly. And I'd add that beyond the stats, Salmons style of play encourages ball hogging tendencies from the rest of the players on the floor with him. The Kings are the absolute worst team in the league in terms of assisted baskets. Only 42% percent of scores come from an assist. For the sake of perspective, the NBA average is 57.5%, the Celtics lead the league at 66% and the only other teams in the league under 50% are the woeful Wizards at 46% and the Grizzlies at 48%.

As Plug showed, his individual numbers are less than impressive and he's being outplayed by opposing SFs which only makes his black hole tendencies that much harder to forgive.

If I were in Smart's shoes I'd pull Donte aside and tell him that he was going to start the next game. And that if he could play high energy defense, keep the ball moving on offense while only taking open jumpers (whether he hits them or not) and trying to rebound that he'd start the game after that. And so on.

Because that's all that the Kings need at SF. A good defender and decent rebounder who is unselfish on offense and can make threes when left open.

I agree. And I think it will work. Donte Greene had shown before he's got the tools and skills, unfortunately in a very inconsistent basis and under a very uninspiring coach. Maybe a new coach like Smart can motivate him to be more consistent in his effort.

Get Salmons out of Sacramento and gamble again on Greene!

 

[IfAt1st]

And for the record, many posters did in fact liked the Salmons trade at the time. Even those with skin in the game aren't contesting it. Why are you the one who's doing revisionist history?

I just think your wording is too extreme - I'll reword it for you, since I was (I think) the biggest objector to the trade because it got rid of Beno, who was INARGUABLY the most reliable King last year.

When the trade happened, there were about half of the posts on here that thought it would be good, due to the hypothetically increased defense that Salmons was supposed to bring, and his increased 3-pt %.

I don't put much faith in stats - I derive my observations about the Kings (and the NBA) from watching the games and seeing the plays.

I predicted that the Kings would sorely miss Beno's playmaking abilities, and especially his ability to steady the offense when things went bad.

My points were dismissed by the majority.
Beno was given thanks, but dismissed quickly from most KF's minds.
They filled their heads with the promise of Salmons' 3ptrs and lock-down defense.

So it's not so much that KF's rejoiced about the Beno/Salmons trade - it's that they didn't focus on that it was a strict down-grade, and more importantly saddled us with a worse contract, helped out another team with draft selection, and filled the glaring whole at SF.

Once they gave away Beno for Salmons, the Kings weren't realistically in a position to pick up a serious NBA SF in free agency or in a trade.

THOSE facts are what KF's whitewashed, and are retconning right now.

 

[beb0p]

We can sit here and argue about wordings, being nice, too harsh. The facts is that, like you said, many on this board thought at the time that Salmons was a very good addition. My recollection is that more than half thought that, but whatever. Facts are facts.

The board is quick to dismiss anything that doesn't fit into the narrative of a few contributors on this board and other posters tend to follow them, and like to pile on the minority. There's too much politics here. But it is what it is.

I actually wanted to get rid of Beno, but only because I never in a million years thought he would not be replaced by a veteran PG. If I had known that a rookie was expected to carry Beno's load, I'd have a real problem with it.

And I agree, some of Salmons' most vocal supporters are now his biggest detractors. How quickly things changed in a just few games.

 

[Bricklayer]

We can sit here and argue about wordings, being nice, too harsh. The facts is that, like you said, many on this board thought at the time that Salmons was a very good addition. My recollection is that more than half thought that, but whatever. Facts are facts.

The board is quick to dismiss anything that doesn't fit into the narrative of a few contributors on this board and other posters tend to follow them, and like to pile on the minority. There's too much politics here. But it is what it is.

I actually wanted to get rid of Beno, but only because I never in a million years thought he would not be replaced by a veteran PG. If I had known that a rookie was expected to carry Beno's load, I'd have a real problem with it.

And I agree, some of Salmons' most vocal supporters are now his biggest detractors. How quickly things changed in a just few games.

Your recollection is off to say the least:

http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/sho...s-Jimmer-with-the-10th-pick&highlight=Salmons

 

[beb0p]

Your recollection is off to say the least:

http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/sho...s-Jimmer-with-the-10th-pick&highlight=Salmons

Not Really.

http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?42166-Your-thoughts-on-the-Kings-rebuild

 

[Bricklayer]

Not Really.

http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?42166-Your-thoughts-on-the-Kings-rebuild

That thread is about the youth of the team, not Salmons.

Salmons was a pariah around here from years back. About the best compliment he received upon arriving is that he was maybe better than what we had. Maybe. I was having to tell people to put down the pitchforks. That I could see the theory, if not the wisdom.