Who's the real starter?

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

When GV and DMC are on the court together, and Cousins doesn't have the ball, Vasquez usually does. So who is Cousins upset with about not getting the ball? Who is the distributer responsible for not getting him the ball? Cousins was visibly upset last night multiple times, and at least of one them was after a poor play by Vasquez. I'm not trying to make a mountain out of a molehill here, my point is that this starting unit, as a unit, is starting to get to him. The poor plays, the missed open looks, the bad passes, etc. He needs help (not direct help, but help sharing the scoring load) and he isn't getting any. So where can that help come from?

What the play-by-play appears to show is that Vasquez and Cousins are mostly only on the court at the same time in the first quarter. Cousins typically starts off well, and tapers off. What that indicates to me is that Vasquez starts off getting Cousins the ball, and then the rotations are changed, and Cousins is no longer on the court with teammates who get him the ball where he needs it.

And I'm going to disagree again with your opinion regarding Cousins getting the ball enough. He doesn't. There are no possessions where Cousins gets the ball and he shouldn't: he should get the ball on, roughly, ninety-nine percent of the possessions when he's on the court. Now, there are possessions where he shoots the ball, and he shouldn't, but I put that on about 35/65 Cousins' fault versus his teammates' fault. Like I said already, Vasquez is the only guy on the team who will actually wait for Cousins to get to his spot, and/or get good position. Everybody else will either look him off if he's not immediately in position, or will give him the ball when he's out of position, which will, nine times out of ten, lead to something bad happening.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

You don't think Ben is a source of scoring help? I would rather have him helping Cuz than IT. IT can take care of himself. Cuz needs room that a long distance shooter can give him.

I think Ben could provide a spark, but it seems like a lot to put on him. 'Hey rook, go fix the offense'. Truthfully, I'd start both IT and Ben with DMC.

Ben is one dimensional offensively, which is why I don't think that would be enough. He can shoot, but that doesn't fix what I believe is a severe lack of someone who can create their own shot, and attack the rim (for Isaiah maybe I should say net ). He's the only one getting inside from the perimeter, and he's the only one drawing any fouls. McLemore has been impressive, but almost none of that has been by him creating his own offense. That's the other thing with Thomas, he's been shooting lights out from 3, and he's a much more reliable floor spreader than Vasquez, or even Thornton at this point.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

And this Cousins not getting enough ball is completely stupid. He has the 2nd highest USG in the league! The entire NBA! It's almost physically impossible to feature him more than we have. IT is and can be a side-kick for Cousins. Especially on this roster full of jump-shooters, who can and have stayed out of the way of IT and Cousins controlling the ball.

It's not stupid, and those numbers will fib to you. It's like the discussion about officiating/free throws: it's not about how many, it's about where and when.

 

[Padrino]

Cousins dominated Denver and LAC because both decided to try and stop him 1 on 1. Result: Cousins putting up huge numbers leading to a win and a near upset.

Golden State and Atlanta both aggressively double and triple teamed Cousins every time he got the ball on the low block. Result: Cousins unable to score inside and no relief coming from the perimeter. Vasquez is not a good scorer, and never was. Neither is Salmons at this point in his career. This is a fundamental flaw in the starting lineup not likely to be mitigated by chemistry and shaking off rust.

And worse, its bad for Cousins' development. He's not going to get any better if he keeps seeing triple teams in the post knowing that kicking it out to a punchless crew is a terrible option.

incorrect re: LAC. they threw plenty of double- and triple-teams at him, particularly in the third quarter of that game. demarcus was able to draw fouls in those instances, and his aggressiveness pushed the clippers into the penalty. it was actually one of the most masterful quarters of basketball i've seen from the kings in a long time. they exploited the clippers' foul trouble repeatedly, and DMC got to the line repeatedly, while the whole team buckled down on the defensive end. the wheels fell off throughout the fourth quarter, as the kings went away from the power game. their shooters predictably clanged jumpers off the rim, and the transition defense failed to get back, resulting in the kings piling up fouls in the penalty, and the clips getting to the line to seal the game...

 

[Glenn]

I think Ben could provide a spark, but it seems like a lot to put on him. 'Hey rook, go fix the offense'. Truthfully, I'd start both IT and Ben with DMC.

Ben is one dimensional offensively, which is why I don't think that would be enough. He can shoot, but that doesn't fix what I believe is a severe lack of someone who can create their own shot, and attack the rim (for Isaiah maybe I should say net ). He's the only one getting inside from the perimeter, and he's the only one drawing any fouls. McLemore has been impressive, but almost none of that has been by him creating his own offense. That's the other thing with Thomas, he's been shooting lights out from 3, and he's a much more reliable floor spreader than Vasquez, or even Thornton at this point.

I would wait a few more games before making any changes but this is reasonable. My objection has to do with the bench. What will we get from them with IT gone? Ben makes a good target for a pass from Cuz and they need to work on that. It takes time to work things out but it won't be worked out if it isn't tried. I don't think Ben is the kind of guy to get discouraged so I don't fear throwing him to the wolves too soon. Ben just plays and I like that.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I would wait a few more games before making any changes but this is reasonable. My objection has to do with the bench. What will we get from them with IT gone? Ben makes a good target for a pass from Cuz and they need to work on that. It takes time to work things out but it won't be worked out if it isn't tried. I don't think Ben is the kind of guy to get discouraged so I don't fear throwing him to the wolves too soon. Ben just plays and I like that.

His jump shot looks awesome so far. Really has the ability to rise up and extend in his normal form, and shoot over the top of defenders. His most important use of his leaping ability, is that it translates into a great form jump shot. These are the kinds of guys who can effectively shoot in the NBA against top defenders. I'm really impressed with him so far and do believe that his ball handling will improve a lot

 

[VF21]

Of all the things I'm liking about Ben, I think his jump shot really is textbook.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Of all the things I'm liking about Ben, I think his jump shot really is textbook.

The point of interest is that he's not just a guy with good form who can shoot. He has the ability to make full use of it in the NBA, because of his leaping ability and extension at the apex of his release

 

[Glenn]

His jump shot looks awesome so far. Really has the ability to rise up and extend in his normal form, and shoot over the top of defenders. His most important use of his leaping ability, is that it translates into a great form jump shot. These are the kinds of guys who can effectively shoot in the NBA against top defenders. I'm really impressed with him so far and do believe that his ball handling will improve a lot

Not sure about the ball handling (are we discussing Schroeder?) but that shot is a thing of beauty and, hey, he even got a put back under the rim. I suspect that won't happen often but it surprised me as I don't see him as having the upper body strength to fight under the rim.

I want to reiterate that his demeanor is unshakeable. He got caught out of position on defense and instead of looking distraught, he went over to Malone and discussed it with him. Impressive.

Keep him in Cousins' eye sight when Cuz gets double or triple teamed and the two of them will be very hard to handle.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

incorrect re: LAC. they threw plenty of double- and triple-teams at him, particularly in the third quarter of that game. demarcus was able to draw fouls in those instances, and his aggressiveness pushed the clippers into the penalty. it was actually one of the most masterful quarters of basketball i've seen from the kings in a long time. they exploited the clippers' foul trouble repeatedly, and DMC got to the line repeatedly, while the whole team buckled down on the defensive end. the wheels fell off throughout the fourth quarter, as the kings went away from the power game. their shooters predictably clanged jumpers off the rim, and the transition defense failed to get back, resulting in the kings piling up fouls in the penalty, and the clips getting to the line to seal the game...

I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I hopped on Synergy anyways. Here is a summary of the totality of Cousins’ touches in that third quarter:

1. Cousins isolates on the perimeter and finds a cutting Patterson for an open layup

2. Cousins isolates on the perimeter and drives on Deandre Jordan for an And-1. Single coverage all the way.

3. Pick and roll with Vasquez, Cousins gets the ball at the rim for an alley-oop

4. Cousins isolates on the perimeter against Ryan Hollins. Sees the defense shading his way, but not a full double team, so he kicks it to Salmons who turns the ball over

Then IT comes into the game.

1. Cousins has the ball against Ryan Hollins. Griffin looks like he’s going to double but backs off. Cousins drives and misses at the rim against single coverage.

2. Cousins isolates in the mid-post on Hollins. Hollins reaches in and fouls.

3. Cousins isolates in the mid-post again on Hollins. He backs down and CP3 half-heartedly doubles but is ready to recover in the case of a kickout. Cousins mishandles the ball but is able to find a cutting JT who makes a move to the rim against Griffin and gets fouled.

Cousins exits the game.

So where are the double teams? The most I saw was a half-hearted attempts to shade in Cousins’ direction (which, interestingly enough, would be illegal in the 90s). Vasquez didn’t even play in the fourth quarter, which reinforces my point. When Vasquez is on the floor, you can double-team Demarcus without repercussions. You need to have a relief scorer on the perimeter so that Cousins can see more of the defense he faced in the Clippers and Denver games.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

Just to hammer the point home, here is some visual evidence of how the Clippers generally played Cousins in the low post vs how the Hawks did.

Clippers:


The entire defense is shading Cousins, but other than Paul, who's in no-mans-land and not in position to make a defensive play, everyone is staying home on shooters. Patterson is in the paint because Cousins has committed to go up for the shot attempt, otherwise he would be spacing the floor.

Hawks:


Note that both Horford and Millsap have completely committed to staying on Cousins with Caroll and Korver in the painted area. Again, Patterson is in the paint because Cousins has committed to go up for the shot attempt; otherwise you'd see him drifting on the perimeter.

The Hawks have basically written the book on how to stop our starting lineup. It worked. And I don't see it stopping from working until there is a personnel change.

 

[Cold]

Cousins dominated Denver and LAC because both decided to try and stop him 1 on 1. Result: Cousins putting up huge numbers leading to a win and a near upset.

Golden State and Atlanta both aggressively double and triple teamed Cousins every time he got the ball on the low block. .

Inaccurate. Bogut played DMC straight up.

 

[The_Jamal]

Of all the things I'm liking about Ben, I think his jump shot really is textbook.

He really does look like a young Ray Allen. It's hard to remember, with him being 1000 years old now, but Allen used to be an incredible athlete. And Ben has that same catch and extremely quick release. He doesn't spend 3 seconds holding the ball or getting his feet set an then shoot. It's been really impressive as almost all of his shots have been uncontested, just by the nature of how fast he is getting to his spots on the floor and his quick release.

 

[CruzDude]

Seems this site always goes back to individual player stats for commentary and arguments. Malone has emphasized over and over he is after a "team" defense and a "team" offense. Jumping over from Bricks individual stats for the 10-man rotation, I went to NBA.com/stat and found the following team related stats ranked 1-30 that point up the real issue after first 3 games, 1 home and 2 away:
Opponent FG% inside 5 ft: 22nd out of 30 teams
" " 5-9 ft: 27th out of 30 teams
" " 20-24ft: 17th
Kings steals: 18th
Kings assists: 23rd
Kings rebounds: 23rd
Kings Ast/TO: 15th

So this says Kings defense inside of 10ft is in worst 25% of league. Steals ok for now but not yet good. And rebounding is horrible considering Cuz, JT and PPat. Poor assist number shows they still are not sharing the ball enough. Opponent FG% is the glaring issue right now.

Hawks game had one progress item: really good 1st and 4th quarter performance. The falloff when starters come back in 2nd and come out in 3rd is up to Malone to solve once he has enough games under his belt to evaluate what lineup/rotation changes to make.

 

[Cold]

I think all we can judge on right now is body language and effort.

Defensive improvement will take 1 full season.

 

[Glenn]

He really does look like a young Ray Allen. It's hard to remember, with him being 1000 years old now, but Allen used to be an incredible athlete. And Ben has that same catch and extremely quick release. He doesn't spend 3 seconds holding the ball or getting his feet set an then shoot. It's been really impressive as almost all of his shots have been uncontested, just by the nature of how fast he is getting to his spots on the floor and his quick release.

Just watch Jesus play in the movie with Denzel Washington. Anyway, before training camp Ben was asked who he compared himself to and he said Ray Allen. What I like about Ben is that he is simply stating what is as close to being a fact as there is. It is not bragging. More and more people are making the same comparison. He's got his head on straight and is even tempered. Hope that can rub off on his team mates.

 

[Cold]

Just watch Jesus play in the movie with Denzel Washington. Anyway, before training camp Ben was asked who he compared himself to and he said Ray Allen. What I like about Ben is that he is simply stating what is as close to being a fact as there is. It is not bragging. More and more people are making the same comparison. He's got his head on straight and is even tempered. Hope that can rub off on his team mates.

Better than looking up to Kobe, who is clearly Salmon's role model.

 

[cuad]

PPat, Chuck, and Cousins are allowing 64, 50, and 56 FG% at the rim. Trout and JT allow less than 30%.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

Inaccurate. Bogut played DMC straight up.

Bogut played Cousins straight up exactly once in the entire game. Cousins failed to score on that possession. He had Bogut beat but hesitated to go up for the hook. That moment's hesitation let Bogut recover and block the attempt.

Otherwise?

Exhibit A:



Exhibit B:


And Exhibit C:


On a side note, the amount of conviction that people can show when saying clearly incorrect statements on the internet always amazes me.

 

[Cold]

Bogut played Cousins straight up exactly once in the entire game. Cousins failed to score on that possession. He had Bogut beat but hesitated to go up for the hook. That moment's hesitation let Bogut recover and block the attempt.

Otherwise?

Exhibit A:

View attachment 4694

Exhibit B:
View attachment 4695

And Exhibit C:
View attachment 4696

On a side note, the amount of conviction that people can show when saying clearly incorrect statements on the internet always amazes me.

This is inaccurate. I have it on DVR and watched the game twice. I can easily copy 10 screen shots showing Bogut guarding DMC one on one.

 

[twslam07]

Bogut played Cousins straight up exactly once in the entire game. Cousins failed to score on that possession. He had Bogut beat but hesitated to go up for the hook. That moment's hesitation let Bogut recover and block the attempt.

Otherwise?

Exhibit A:

View attachment 4694

Exhibit B:
View attachment 4695

And Exhibit C:
View attachment 4696

On a side note, the amount of conviction that people can show when saying clearly incorrect statements on the internet always amazes me.

haha gottem!

 

[Cold]

In 2 of your 3 EXHIBITS, Bogut wasn't even in 1 of them. And the 3rd one, Bogut blocked DMC straight up. Klay just came over for the potential loose ball. Note MC's position on the court and the shot has already gone up. That's not a double team. I remember that play.

Bogut also ripped the ball out of DMC's hand in one play, one on one. No double team there. That makes your statement of Bogut guarding DMC straight up only once during the game false.

 

[Cold]

I have high hopes for DMC. but why do Kings fans keep giving DMC passes? He really struggled in the previous 2 games. Don't find excuses for the leader of the team.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

This is inaccurate. I have it on DVR and watched the game twice. I can easily copy 10 screen shots showing Bogut guarding DMC one on one.

Maybe on the perimeter, but in the low post? Good luck finding those 10 screenshots.

 

[KingMilz]

We need to start the Kings version of the splash brothers 2.0 with Thomas and M16 starting, they are the only two players who give effort both ways of the floor for the whole game regardless of there defensive ability. Vasquez is not working cause Cousins and the rest of the starters other than PPat don't know how to move without the ball making his playmaking crappie since he himself can't breakdown the D and needs good movement.

 

[Cold]

Maybe on the perimeter, but in the low post? Good luck finding those 10 screenshots.

When I get home I'll oblique. I'll find those 10 shots in the first half. I still have the game on DVR.

 

[sdballer]

We need to start the Kings version of the splash brothers 2.0 with Thomas and M16 starting, they are the only two players who give effort both ways of the floor for the whole game regardless of there defensive ability. Vasquez is not working cause Cousins and the rest of the starters other than PPat don't know how to move without the ball making his playmaking crappie since he himself can't breakdown the D and needs good movement.

I challenge anyone to watch IT during the first 3 quarters of last nights game and tell me he was giving effort on defense. Anyone.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

In 2 of your 3 EXHIBITS, Bogut wasn't even in 1 of them.

This makes no sense. Grammatically, syntactically, and factually.

Bogut was in 2/3 screens. All of them were in the low block. Two of them were with Cousins starting the play with his back to the basket. The other was a face-up drive to the rim (and contrary to your statement, Klay came with a hard double once he saw Demarcus driving. He left his man, as you can see from the screen he has completely committed to Cousins as Bogut gets the block). There was exactly one other Cousins play on the low block, which is the one you mentioned. I called it a block, you called it ripping it out of his hands. Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to

 

[VF21]

When I get home I'll oblique. I'll find those 10 shots in the first half. I still have the game on DVR.

PS: Bogut rarely wanders out to the perimeter becuz most centers don't start their post moves out there. But if DMC starts his moves out there, and Bogut comes out to greet him, isn't that DMC's fault? Don't we all want him to go in the paint?

I love auto-correct.

 

[Cold]

This makes no sense. Grammatically, syntactically, and factually.

Bogut was in 2/3 screens. All of them were in the low block. Two of them were with Cousins starting the play with his back to the basket. The other was a face-up drive to the rim (and contrary to your statement, Klay came with a hard double once he saw Demarcus driving. He left his man, as you can see from the screen he has completely committed to Cousins as Bogut gets the block). There was exactly one other Cousins play on the low block, which is the one you mentioned. I called it a block, you called it ripping it out of his hands. Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to

stop getting technical. I clearly said in 1 of them BOgut wasn't even in the game. That's not BOgut. That's Marese Speights guarding DMC. When I said 2 of 3, i meant 2 of them weren't double team w/ Bogut guarding DMC. Im at work man on an old Kin i'm not trying to win a grammar contest here.