Who Should We Sign? (2023 Off-Season)
- Thread starter twslam07
- Start date
I can't excited about paying Grant Williams $15-20M, when Cam Johnson might be had for $20-25M (possibly on the lower end of that range). TBF, is he worth more than the Non-taxpayer MLE? Grant is a bench player and is an undersized heavyset (when used at PF) player too, which might fly on the Celtics considering the rest of their roster... but is he going to be a good match next to Sabonis and Murray? The Kings would be better off trying to draft GG Jackson with #24 and develop him into their own but better version of Grant, who is also cost-controlled.
Anyway, Cam is easily the better player and should be the first move the FO attempt this summer.
Anyway, Cam is easily the better player and should be the first move the FO attempt this summer.
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Is Herb Jones a SG? I watched him for years in college he never struck me as a player thats more of a guard than a forward..
I think thats a totally ridiculous question about which groups rebounding is better.... Do you think Herb Jones at SG saves us from that 3rd quarter game7 slaughter on the boards? Is that what your saying? Cuz I think your underrating the quality of our potential playoff opponents to try and make your point. Herb Jones is gonna guard Klay Thompson at the 3pt line and simultaneously save our rebounding? That seems plausible to you?
I think thats a totally ridiculous question about which groups rebounding is better.... Do you think Herb Jones at SG saves us from that 3rd quarter game7 slaughter on the boards? Is that what your saying? Cuz I think your underrating the quality of our potential playoff opponents to try and make your point. Herb Jones is gonna guard Klay Thompson at the 3pt line and simultaneously save our rebounding? That seems plausible to you?
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You still can! Thats what the Warriors pay Donte DiVicenzo and he sure hurt us in the series. Looney only makes 8 and he outplayed our All-Star C thats gonna ask for 40MM next summer in the series.
Just cuz so many here are focused on paying Cam Johnson $25MM next season and running our starters who got us the 3rd seed out of town doesnt mean that high price is what we've gotta spend to improve... dont be fooled!
I personally think spending that kind of $$$ on a PF with a 6'10" wingspan is preposterous, when we've got a C with a 6'11 wingspan, and just got trounced on the boards in the 2nd half of a game 7 ------- THAT IDEA SEEMS LIKE WALKING STRAIGHT INTO A BUZZSAW TO ME.. Sure seems like an overpay too, why not just try and get Vezenkov here on the low? that seems far less risky.
Just cuz so many here are focused on paying Cam Johnson $25MM next season and running our starters who got us the 3rd seed out of town doesnt mean that high price is what we've gotta spend to improve... dont be fooled!
I personally think spending that kind of $$$ on a PF with a 6'10" wingspan is preposterous, when we've got a C with a 6'11 wingspan, and just got trounced on the boards in the 2nd half of a game 7 ------- THAT IDEA SEEMS LIKE WALKING STRAIGHT INTO A BUZZSAW TO ME.. Sure seems like an overpay too, why not just try and get Vezenkov here on the low? that seems far less risky.
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Sounds like a terrible situation for Hamidou Diallo to me.. If I'm his agent I want him somewhere he can compete for 20mpg, in that scenario he's doomed to be an overpaid 3rd stringer waiting for an injury behind Huerter/Monk and Murray/KBD...
Heavy duty "the grass is always greener on the otherside" vibes goin in this thread... Its wild..
Heavy duty "the grass is always greener on the otherside" vibes goin in this thread... Its wild..
Darius Bazley is an intriguing target.
I think he could be a great buy low target with the potential to be the perfect fit next to Sabonis considering...
I think he could be a great buy low target with the potential to be the perfect fit next to Sabonis considering...
- He’s got great size & length (6’7.75” w/o shoes, 7’0” wingspan, 8’11” standing reach, & 208.4 lbs)
- He’s very athletic
- He can space the floor (3.1 3PA per36 at 37.7%)
- He can rebound (8.1 REB per36)
- He can protect the rim (2.0 BLK per36)
- He’ll be the same age as Keegan at the start of next season (23 years old)
Dare I say I’m interested in bringing DiVincenzo back?
If Mitchell is packaged with Holmes to clear extra cap space this offseason, I like the idea of bringing DiVincenzo back as our starting SG and bringing Monk & Huerter off the bench.
I think the minute distribution could work rather well too:
PG - Fox (34 min) / Monk (14 min)
SG - DiVincenzo (26 min) / Monk (12 min) / Huerter (10 min)
SF - Murray (30 min) / Huerter (18 min)
PF - ??? (??? min) / Lyles (??? min)
C - Sabonis (34 min) / ??? (14 min)
If Mitchell is packaged with Holmes to clear extra cap space this offseason, I like the idea of bringing DiVincenzo back as our starting SG and bringing Monk & Huerter off the bench.
- DiVincenzo is a much better defender than Huerter. He's a very active defender (1.8 STL per36) who makes smart and quick rotations. He's got good athleticism to keep defenders in front of him too
- DiVincenzo is a much better rebounder than Huerter (6.2 REB per36 vs. 4.1 REB per36). Considering this is something we struggled with in the playoffs, it would be great to have another player who is an excellent rebounder for their position.
- DiVincenzo shot an excellent 39.7% from 3 while taking 7.6 3PA per36. Compare that to Huerter who shot 40.2% from 3 on 8.3 3PA per36, Murray who shot 41.1% from 3 on 7.6 3PA per36, & Monk who shot 35.9% from 3 while taking 8.3 3PA per36 and you have another guy who is at least in the same vicinity as a shooter.
- DiVincenzo is a solid passer/playmaker as well (4.8 AST and 2.5 TO per36). If Mitchell is moved, Fox, Monk, & DiVincenzo should be more than capable at handling the PG minutes.
- DiVincenzo will be 26 at the start of next season. Considering his age, he's potentially a long term fit that can continue to grow with the core.
I think the minute distribution could work rather well too:
PG - Fox (34 min) / Monk (14 min)
SG - DiVincenzo (26 min) / Monk (12 min) / Huerter (10 min)
SF - Murray (30 min) / Huerter (18 min)
PF - ??? (??? min) / Lyles (??? min)
C - Sabonis (34 min) / ??? (14 min)
He is more of a forward to me too, but I feel he is capable of playing as a defensive 3&D SG in this hypothetical lineup because of Murray's and Cam's shooting and off-ball movement. Besides, Mike Brown can opt to play Huerter/Monk at SG and Herb at SF for a lot of minutes too, when a third play-maker is needed. So he has warts on offense but for a defensive 3&D SG who plays within his strengths, it should be just fine IMO. He focuses on fast-breaks, takes most of his threes from the corner/wing, with occasional cuts and straight drives and to the rim.
One positive for Herb over Vando, is that Herb is a better 3-point shooter.
3PA per 36: Herb - 3.1, Vando - 1.7
3P% per 36: Herb - 34%, Vando - 32%
Corner 3 attempted: Herb - 52%, Vando 88%
The difference in corner 3's attempted shows that Herb is more comfortable taking threes from the wing. This is important for 2 reasons:
1) If Murray/Cam are also taking lots of corner threes, it would be helpful for the player next to them to be comfortable or decent at shooting threes from the wing.
2) Vando positions himself in the corner more, on offense. On the occasions when Herb is located on the wing, if a shot is missed, then it would be easier for Herb to get back on defense from where he is located to try and stop the break.
Also, there's no chance of getting Vando this summer... while there is a slim possibility of getting Herb, since the Pels need more shooting around BI, Zion and Jonas when Zion is back... so there is no point in thinking about Vando.
Why is it so ridiculous? Herb is 6'8", Cam is 6'8"-6'9". Huerter is 6'7" but soft on rebounding, Monk is 6'3" and a non-factor on rebounding, Vando is 6'9". Of course, Herb and Cam are going to rebound better than a combo of Huerter/Monk and Vando.
That's a ridiculous counter question to ask, for a couple of reasons.
1) You are making this all about rebounding, while ignoring the other improvements (such as improved three-point shooting and defense). I'm not under-rating opponents... and I'm not saying my hypothetical lineup has an answer for everything. I simply think it has more answers than the current roster, or other lineups that I'm seeing posted here.
Is it possible you are unable to see the bigger picture, when the pieces of the jigsaw have not already been put together? Rosters are all about options. It would be nice for the Kings to get another backup PF who is 6'10" or more and can play alongside Sabonis. Someone like Maxi Kleber, or Taylor Hendricks (altho he is not gettable in this draft). It's not like Herb will or should play all 48 minutes. The Kings also need a better backup Center.
2) The question you are asking about "guarding the 3pt line while simultaneously saving our rebounding", well, that would apply equally to Vanderbilt. In a hypothetical lineup of Fox - Monk/Huerter - Murray - Vando - Saboni, if Klay was going off, then the smart move would be to have Vando guarding Klay. So is Vando going to guard Klay on the perimeter and simultaneously save the rebounding? No, he is not.
With Sabonis at C, the team is always going to have problems rebounding. The hope is that having three guys who are 6'8" (Herb. Murray, Cam) playing between Fox-Sabonis will help reduce the problem. Two of these three 6'8" guys are superb three-point shooters, while the other is good enough. One of the three is a superb defender, while the other two are good enough. They may not grab many more rebounds at the rim, but they can help grab those that are further from the basket. The rebounding is a Sabonis-problem which won't be solved unless you get a bigger body next to him (like Claxton, who can also defend perimeter players). Simply dropping Vando into the lineup won't solve the problem, depending on who Vando is guarding.
One positive for Herb over Vando, is that Herb is a better 3-point shooter.
3PA per 36: Herb - 3.1, Vando - 1.7
3P% per 36: Herb - 34%, Vando - 32%
Corner 3 attempted: Herb - 52%, Vando 88%
The difference in corner 3's attempted shows that Herb is more comfortable taking threes from the wing. This is important for 2 reasons:
1) If Murray/Cam are also taking lots of corner threes, it would be helpful for the player next to them to be comfortable or decent at shooting threes from the wing.
2) Vando positions himself in the corner more, on offense. On the occasions when Herb is located on the wing, if a shot is missed, then it would be easier for Herb to get back on defense from where he is located to try and stop the break.
Also, there's no chance of getting Vando this summer... while there is a slim possibility of getting Herb, since the Pels need more shooting around BI, Zion and Jonas when Zion is back... so there is no point in thinking about Vando.
Why is it so ridiculous? Herb is 6'8", Cam is 6'8"-6'9". Huerter is 6'7" but soft on rebounding, Monk is 6'3" and a non-factor on rebounding, Vando is 6'9". Of course, Herb and Cam are going to rebound better than a combo of Huerter/Monk and Vando.
That's a ridiculous counter question to ask, for a couple of reasons.
1) You are making this all about rebounding, while ignoring the other improvements (such as improved three-point shooting and defense). I'm not under-rating opponents... and I'm not saying my hypothetical lineup has an answer for everything. I simply think it has more answers than the current roster, or other lineups that I'm seeing posted here.
Is it possible you are unable to see the bigger picture, when the pieces of the jigsaw have not already been put together? Rosters are all about options. It would be nice for the Kings to get another backup PF who is 6'10" or more and can play alongside Sabonis. Someone like Maxi Kleber, or Taylor Hendricks (altho he is not gettable in this draft). It's not like Herb will or should play all 48 minutes. The Kings also need a better backup Center.
2) The question you are asking about "guarding the 3pt line while simultaneously saving our rebounding", well, that would apply equally to Vanderbilt. In a hypothetical lineup of Fox - Monk/Huerter - Murray - Vando - Saboni, if Klay was going off, then the smart move would be to have Vando guarding Klay. So is Vando going to guard Klay on the perimeter and simultaneously save the rebounding? No, he is not.
With Sabonis at C, the team is always going to have problems rebounding. The hope is that having three guys who are 6'8" (Herb. Murray, Cam) playing between Fox-Sabonis will help reduce the problem. Two of these three 6'8" guys are superb three-point shooters, while the other is good enough. One of the three is a superb defender, while the other two are good enough. They may not grab many more rebounds at the rim, but they can help grab those that are further from the basket. The rebounding is a Sabonis-problem which won't be solved unless you get a bigger body next to him (like Claxton, who can also defend perimeter players). Simply dropping Vando into the lineup won't solve the problem, depending on who Vando is guarding.
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Dare I say I’m interested in bringing DiVincenzo back?
If Mitchell is packaged with Holmes to clear extra cap space, I like the idea of bringing DiVincenzo back as our starting SG. He’s a much better defender and rebounder (two of our weaker points) and he shot an excellent 39.7% from 3 while taking 7.6 3PA per36 (Huerter shot 40.2% from 3
You have to keep in mind that he was coming off a surgically repaired tendon in his ankle. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that last year was his worst season but he’s been back to his normal, solid self this season (per36 stats below):
.151 USG%
.593 TS%
.435 FG%
.525 2P%
.397 3P%
.817 FT%
10.3 FGA
3.1 2PA
7.2 3PA
1.3 FTA
12.9 PPG
6.2 RPG
4.8 APG
1.8 SPG
0.2 BPG
2.1 TOPG
2.5 FPG
2.25 AST:TO
Again, if you inject his defense and rebounding into the starting lineup (while still having great spacing) and strengthen your bench with both Monk and Huerter as your 6th & 7th men, I think you’d see a notable improvement.
If Mitchell is packaged with Holmes to clear extra cap space, I like the idea of bringing DiVincenzo back as our starting SG. He’s a much better defender and rebounder (two of our weaker points) and he shot an excellent 39.7% from 3 while taking 7.6 3PA per36 (Huerter shot 40.2% from 3
You have to keep in mind that he was coming off a surgically repaired tendon in his ankle. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that last year was his worst season but he’s been back to his normal, solid self this season (per36 stats below):
.151 USG%
.593 TS%
.435 FG%
.525 2P%
.397 3P%
.817 FT%
10.3 FGA
3.1 2PA
7.2 3PA
1.3 FTA
12.9 PPG
6.2 RPG
4.8 APG
1.8 SPG
0.2 BPG
2.1 TOPG
2.5 FPG
2.25 AST:TO
Again, if you inject his defense and rebounding into the starting lineup (while still having great spacing) and strengthen your bench with both Monk and Huerter as your 6th & 7th men, I think you’d see a notable improvement.
It's a possibility but he seems to be friendly with the current roster (watching how he was interacting with our guys on the floor) and we do have a new coach (Walton was here during his tenure). Also, McNair doesn't really strike me as the type of guy who burns bridges, and I think if the sell to him was to make him the starter, I think he'd definitely consider it.
So if I’ve got my facts straight, we have the following options.
1) release the cap hold on Barnes which would also eliminate the full mid level exception leaving us with 20 mil in cap space. Re-sign Lyles using bird rights. Sign Sasha with either cap space or the biannual.
2) re-sign Barnes for 15-20 mil. Have a 12 mil dollar mid level to use. Sign Sasha either with the mid level or biannual if the mid level is used. Lyles using Bird rights.
3) potentially do all of option one but renegotiate Sabonis contract and extend now.
does this sound correct?
1) release the cap hold on Barnes which would also eliminate the full mid level exception leaving us with 20 mil in cap space. Re-sign Lyles using bird rights. Sign Sasha with either cap space or the biannual.
2) re-sign Barnes for 15-20 mil. Have a 12 mil dollar mid level to use. Sign Sasha either with the mid level or biannual if the mid level is used. Lyles using Bird rights.
3) potentially do all of option one but renegotiate Sabonis contract and extend now.
does this sound correct?
Or use whatever space is created releasing the Barnes cap hold to make a deal much easier cap wise whether that's by sign and trade or just trade, hopefully with some agreement on Barnes also coming back. I'm still all in on Holmes and 24 for some more cap space if possible. I really think this is the last shot for Monte to have any real cap space without letting key cogs go or basically not signing any long term pieces in the interim which is a total gamble and not realistic.
Ugh. I know you give Vlade way more of a pass than he deserves, but have we learned nothing from trading FRP's for nothing? It's horrible, horrible process.
Now, if Holmes+24 got you like.. Royce O'Neale? Dorian-Finney Smith? Or just pick a useful rotation piece that's available off a bad team where a team would want draft capital. That's how you get off Holmes. You NEVER use the pick to just dump him. Just awful.
It would only make sense if you had a big signing lined up for a premier player. I wish Holmes would agree to decline the player option somehow, it would really open some
Possibilities. I get the financial side of it for him but rotting away on the very end of the bench has to be tough for a competitor. And not just for one year, but 3 full years smack dab in the middle of your prime.
Possibilities. I get the financial side of it for him but rotting away on the very end of the bench has to be tough for a competitor. And not just for one year, but 3 full years smack dab in the middle of your prime.
It all depends on who that first rounder is and if they can actually find a place on your team. I don't think keeping a young core of Ellis, Qeuta, and Edwards and adding another 2nd round talent or two to develop is a bad place to be. I just think Vlades biggest mistake was his coaching hires. Traded to get Barnes for one of those meh 1st round picks. Drafted Fox. All in all, not too shabby. Even built teams that made some degree of sense towards the end. I don't think a trade like those are going to happen value wise but that should be an option to look at as well. 24 for this team and in looking at this draft., I wouldn't be at all surprised to see some legit 1st round talent there at the high 2nd rounder anyway and in the mocks I've seen there's that kind of variance from one mock to another that could very well put this as another one where big portions of rounds could be flipped when all is said and done. Heck, Monte just lopped off legit 1st round talent recently in yet another sale of a 2nd rounder. Wasn't fun to see, but not riot worthy. What player mocked at 24 is worth not having potential trade space or near max money? Certainly a star could be there, but they better be with the right situation to show it. Gerald Wallace was awesome, for someone else in time.The truth is it's very unlikely that 24 pick is in the rotation this year. If there's a swing for the fences player maybe you go for that but if, and that's a big if, 24 can even get that anchor off Monte's cap he better darn well consider it. That along with Barnes ending is the kind of flexibility you want in the kind of limited window of flexibility Monte has since he didn't go rebuild and rather went all in and even used future picks to do it himself. I would give him enough credit to think that the Kings braintrust intentionally created that window of opportunity as part of their structure moving forward.
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No not really, I think that space is actually best used in a trade, especially ones that might include future picks. This current FA class doesn't have a ton of franchise changers sitting there for Sac, and the one's that are likely can't just be signed even with Holmes free and clear from the cap. Monte being able to create deals without the caveat of oh yeah, BTW to make salaries work you have to eat this 30 million or whatever too, lol is a pretty big bonus.
See this is the thing that confuses me a bit and maybe @Capt. Factorial can help clear this up.
What happens if you have a hold that takes you over the cap but after you sign that player, it brings you under the cap? Does your MLE go away? I assume it would but not entirely sure. And I’m sure there can be a specific way of reporting your signings to make sure you don’t lose your MLE.
What happens if you have a hold that takes you over the cap but after you sign that player, it brings you under the cap? Does your MLE go away? I assume it would but not entirely sure. And I’m sure there can be a specific way of reporting your signings to make sure you don’t lose your MLE.
Jonathan Isaac would be an intriguing trade target. I wonder if a Holmes/Dozier/#24 or Holmes/Mitchell is enough of an incentive for ORL to cut ties.
Isaac is a tremendous fit on paper…
Obviously, it just comes down to his ability to stay healthy and on the floor but is the risk of shedding a minor asset to potentially find a near perfect complement to Sabonis worth it? There are not many players out there the cover Sabonis’ weaknesses and complement his strengths.
Since we wouldn’t have to use cap space to make this trade, we could still go over the cap to resign Barnes, Lyles, Davis, etc. Resigning Barnes & Lyles would give us very good injury security with Isaac as we’d still have Murray, Barnes, Lyles, and Edwards who could play SF and PF in the case that Isaac does get injured.
Depending on which trade we do above, we could have this rotation:
PG - Fox / Mitchell
SG - Huerter / Monk
SF - Murray / Barnes / Edwards
PF - Isaac / Lyles
C - Sabonis
Picks - #38 / #54
or
PG - Fox / Monk
SG - Huerter / Davis / Dozier
SF - Murray / Barnes / Edwards
PF - Isaac / Lyles
C - Sabonis
Picks - #24 / #38 / #54
Isaac is a tremendous fit on paper…
- 25 years old
- Great size, length, & athleticism at PF
- Excellent defender who could easily make some all defensive teams
- Excellent rebounder
- Excellent rim protector
- Excellent motor/hustle
- Can space the floor
- Has some offensive scoring potential
Obviously, it just comes down to his ability to stay healthy and on the floor but is the risk of shedding a minor asset to potentially find a near perfect complement to Sabonis worth it? There are not many players out there the cover Sabonis’ weaknesses and complement his strengths.
Since we wouldn’t have to use cap space to make this trade, we could still go over the cap to resign Barnes, Lyles, Davis, etc. Resigning Barnes & Lyles would give us very good injury security with Isaac as we’d still have Murray, Barnes, Lyles, and Edwards who could play SF and PF in the case that Isaac does get injured.
Depending on which trade we do above, we could have this rotation:
PG - Fox / Mitchell
SG - Huerter / Monk
SF - Murray / Barnes / Edwards
PF - Isaac / Lyles
C - Sabonis
Picks - #38 / #54
or
PG - Fox / Monk
SG - Huerter / Davis / Dozier
SF - Murray / Barnes / Edwards
PF - Isaac / Lyles
C - Sabonis
Picks - #24 / #38 / #54
If at any time the sum of your salaries and all possible applicable exceptions goes under the salary cap, the exceptions go **poof!**
This kind of makes sense, actually. For a simplified example, let's imagine a team whose salary is $19M under the cap, and who has only a $10M hold on Player A and a $10M MLE available (let's say they used the BAE last year, we're going simple). The league will virtually add the hold and the MLE to the team salary, which puts them over the cap. The maximum amount this team is allowed to go over the cap is $1M, and they are allowed to do it specifically with the MLE ($10M of free agents) and Player A ($10M max).
Now let's imagine that the team negotiates a contract with Player A for $8M. Team salary is now $11M under the cap. Now when the league adds the MLE to the team salary, the total falls short of the salary cap. Hence, the team is actually now allowed, without an exception, to sign $11M worth of free agents. So it make sense that the MLE goes away - it's no longer necessary.
Of course, if the team spends up close to the salary cap with their cap space they then get the Room MLE. You can look at the MLE as a gift to teams that are over the cap. If you're not over the cap, you don't get the gift. The Room MLE is the consolation gift if you are under the cap but you spend your cap space. When you look at it from the right point of view, the whole system is designed to encourage teams to operate above the cap. It's a clever set of rules, at least from the Player's Union's point of view.
This kind of makes sense, actually. For a simplified example, let's imagine a team whose salary is $19M under the cap, and who has only a $10M hold on Player A and a $10M MLE available (let's say they used the BAE last year, we're going simple). The league will virtually add the hold and the MLE to the team salary, which puts them over the cap. The maximum amount this team is allowed to go over the cap is $1M, and they are allowed to do it specifically with the MLE ($10M of free agents) and Player A ($10M max).
Now let's imagine that the team negotiates a contract with Player A for $8M. Team salary is now $11M under the cap. Now when the league adds the MLE to the team salary, the total falls short of the salary cap. Hence, the team is actually now allowed, without an exception, to sign $11M worth of free agents. So it make sense that the MLE goes away - it's no longer necessary.
Of course, if the team spends up close to the salary cap with their cap space they then get the Room MLE. You can look at the MLE as a gift to teams that are over the cap. If you're not over the cap, you don't get the gift. The Room MLE is the consolation gift if you are under the cap but you spend your cap space. When you look at it from the right point of view, the whole system is designed to encourage teams to operate above the cap. It's a clever set of rules, at least from the Player's Union's point of view.