Where does Peja rank amongst fellow foreign NBA players?

[Fillmoe]

monkeys
flys
poo
Peja

hahahahahah! just messing.....

peja is prolly top 5 only people better than him would have to be dirk, ak47 and nash..... luol deng in 2 years!

 

[Fillmoe]

What's "insane" is some people ranking Stojakovic as high as 2nd... THAT'S insane... I think that fifth-best is more than fair, given how utterly one-dimensional Stojakovic has been to this point in career, and may even be a little high, but I'm exactly sold on the guys I ranked immediately below him, either. But definitely no higher than fifth. Everybody that I ranked ahead of Stojakovic has proven to be better. Stojakovic can do one thing well... and one thing only; I can not, in good conscience, and will not, rank a player that one-dimensional any higher. No way, no how.

co-sign

 

[VF21]

You just said it yourself, you tend to swing "drastically" to the other side. How is that "an ultimate attempt to be fair"?

Once again, you quote me OUT OF CONTEXT. I said:

If some members of this forum, most of them of Serbian background, would stop acting as though Peja was in actuality UBERPEJA, then some of us wouldn't swing to the other side of the pendulum so drastically.

What that means isn't - and I really think you know this - that we ALWAYS go to the other end of the spectrum. It means that when those few people continue to act as though we're trying to sully the name of UBERPEJA, then we're going to post our response accordingly.

If you don't think I'm fair about Peja, then I apologize for the misunderstanding you apparently are choosing to continue to believe in.

I don't know what else to say, so I'll choose to say nothing.

We will agree that we'll never agree.

 

[thesanityannex]

To get back to the original topic at hand somewhat, where would you place him among the other foreign NBA players?

I'd rank him in the top five. Probably fifth. These other guys though, are their team's star player and number one option, so they better be above Peja. I think all of us here are Peja supporters, we have to be, we are King's fans. No one hopes he will do awfully, and those who are criticize him are the same people who WANT to be proven wrong. Peja is awesome and I love watching him play, but I realize he is not a "superstar", only the smoothest long range bomber in the history of the game.

 

[starks]

I'd rank him in the top five. Probably fifth. These other guys though, are their team's star player and number one option, so they better be above Peja. I think all of us here are Peja supporters, we have to be, we are King's fans. No one hopes he will do awfully, and those who are criticize him are the same people who WANT to be proven wrong. Peja is awesome and I love watching him play, but I realize he is not a "superstar", only the smoothest long range bomber in the history of the game.

You'd rank him as fifth...I'd rank as second (very close to dirk).... and that's ok...i don't see anything wrong with that.... I don't know why is ranking peja as second or sixth "insane"...everybody have different preferences.... if I post thread how we will rank biby amongst point guards and I'm sure it won't create that many controversy like on this thread....and I’m wondering why..….he is not trash talker, player with spectacular dunks or crossovers, doesn’t mess with drugs and guns, no tattoos, not media guy……only what he did last year asked for trade advised by his stupid agent

 

[Bricklayer]

only the smoothest long range bomber in the history of the game.

Oh, I think he'd have some hefty competition on that front. But certainly one of the smoothest playing today.

In any case, I am not really all that worried about Peja one way or the other this year. EXCEPT for the looming contract which is now a huge concern. But Bozz is right that the Peja as #1 controversy has been shelved, with us instead going with a dubious 5 amigos plan. EVERYBODY on the Kings is going to want to shoot. Except Brad, and we want him to shoot more. We have all the shots, shooters, scorers we need and then some, so the team's fate is no longer tied to Peja being great, nor even pulled down if Peja is terrible. He's just one of the guys. Part of the gang. So I am not terribly worried about him -- we've got other concerns. He's going to be what he has always been. I can certainly argue we need someone with balls at that position given the rest of our team, but the same thing could be said about several of our other positions. My personal guess has been about 22ppg, but depending on how the newcomers work out, how shot happy Kevin or Kenny are etc., could be 20ppg. And either way, a shrug. He'll fill his role, collect his check, go home. Have some big games, have some worthless ones. Be a good player on a team of good players. And if it weren't for the looming MAX contract for him sitting out there, and the attached threat that we could lose him for nothing at all, Peja just being Peja would not be nearly the problem it was 6 months ago. His importance to us is now nowhere near what it once was, and so too my anxiety about him failing and bringing us down with him is lessened.

Unfortunately now the contract and free agency have become the new issues. Now we're in the position of having rather pointedly dedided NOT to rely on him as a superstar, but still looking at having to pay him as if he were. And pay him that huge money until he is aging and in decline. And with our salary structure and financial constraints likely having to throw other players overboard in order to make room for such a bloated salary. If ever he was worth that to us, he certainly is nto now. But we are rapidly pinning ourselves into a very dangerous corner now and could very well come out big losers, whether it be by badly overpaying for a one-dimensional player, or by instead watching him walk away for absolutely nothing. Our good options -- signing him for significantly less than max, trading him for value, become harder and harder to acheive as his open market date gets closer.

 

[KP]

EDIT: Also, wasn't game 3 the one where Peja had the opportunity for the last shot and chose to flail about like a monkey on a string looking for a foul instead of putting the damn ball in the basket, or was that a different game? I've forgotten.

Wow. Brutal. I'll quote Bill the Butcher on this one, "It's fair... a touch indelicate but fair."

 

[bozzwell]

Once again, you quote me OUT OF CONTEXT. I said:



What that means isn't - and I really think you know this - that we ALWAYS go to the other end of the spectrum. It means that when those few people continue to act as though we're trying to sully the name of UBERPEJA, then we're going to post our response accordingly.

If you don't think I'm fair about Peja, then I apologize for the misunderstanding you apparently are choosing to continue to believe in.

I don't know what else to say, so I'll choose to say nothing.

We will agree that we'll never agree.

I think I understand you, now. You are choosing to take the opposite side for this Forum to be fair (i.e. countering boosterism). I thought that Slim and you were agreeing that you cannot accept Pedja for what he is while all the blatant boosterism is raging on.

I think that we're all a bit unfair to Pedja right now. Building him to be something that he is not just makes it so easy to knock him down. Knocking him because of what he possibly can never be (his age and his career so far made him what he is) just takes away from all the good and fun that he provided for this team despite his shortcomings.

Everyone (is unfair) except Bricklayer of course. He is so brutally business-like about Pedja now that I honestly don't know if he hates his guts or thinks he could be the best thing since sliced bread only if...

 

[sloter]

And I don't think that there is a single GM in the NBA that would take Stojakovic over Kirilenko, if both were available at the same price. Not one... And the next time that Stojakovic makes an impact in a relevant game will be the first.

Just how much impact has Kirilenko had in relevant games ?
Pedja has won tons internationally in both national team and club team competitions. He is far from being Mr. Clutch, and pretty pathetic when it comes down to 4th quarter, but he does make a team a lot better even when his shot is not on.
Kirilenko is a great player, but for some reason when him and Pedja match up against each other I am not that scared.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

That's funny... I don't recall being asked to rate Stojakovic against other members of the SCG National Team, or the ever-popular club play.

And Kirilenko hasn't made an impact in relevant games because he hasn't played any relevant games in the NBA; he's been oft-injured, and the Jazz have been terrible. But, Kirilenko's a five-tool player, and when he's anywhere in the same zip code as healthy, he's not only the best defensive Euro in the NBA, but one of the most well-rounded players in the NBA, period. He could probably put up Garnett-type numbers, if he took as many shots... I'd trade him for Stojakovic, straight up. Hell, I'd trade Stojakovic and anybody else on the team to get Kirilenko.

 

[thesanityannex]

I'd trade him for Stojakovic, straight up. Hell, I'd trade Stojakovic and anybody else on the team to get Kirilenko.

Stojakovic and Slamson is as far as I'd go. Maybe a royal court dancer to sweeten the deal.

 

[loopymitch]

it's interesting that the threads about peja always seem to be the most heated, and so it continues..

 

[GoGoGadget]

Wow. Brutal. I'll quote Bill the Butcher on this one, "It's fair... a touch indelicate but fair."

Eh, what can I say?

I'm a lot of things, but delicate ain't one of 'em. Never has been.

 

[outsider62]

You know, I'm sure that, in your opinion, I'm being too hard on the guy... that said, in my personal opinion, the guy who put up 20/10/2/2/1 did more to "lead" the team than the guy who put up 23/7/0/1/0.

And I still can't think of a game where Stojakovic came through when the Kings were facing elimination.

1. I didn't comment Peja against Manu comparison.
2. You are too hard on him.
3. Examples were given in the meantime about elimination game performance. We didn't win these games, but Peja delivered. Was defeat his fault?
4. Don't you think you add the fuel to unbalanced discussion with such comments?
5. I would respect you even more if you explicitly said that you were wrong before replacing original claim with new one.

 

[outsider62]

wHAT ARE YOU SMOKING? Sure Kukoc was a good player, but we're talking about a (3) time All-Star player here. Kukoc was a great team NBA (role) player and great overall player in europe, but numbers that Peja puts up are way over Tony's. And all that on a team like Kings, were selfishness does not count.
Peja is a team player, with not much athletic abilities, and will never be great. Doesn't have that kind of talent at all, he has overacchieved as of now. His knee was crushed so bad, back in Greece, it's wonder he can jump at all! You guys just expect to much of Peja, and then you get dissapointed in the end. He's never going to have a season like 2003/04 again, never. Well, I hope he does, but chances are slimm!

I am not smoker, what about you?

How much do you know about Kukoc? I don't based my opinion on numbers. I followed their career from the beginning and I actually watch them play. Kukoc was successfully both as a team leader in Europe and as a team player in NBA. He was clutch player and he made hit teammates better. He was not #1 for MJ bulls, Peja was not #1 option for CW Kings...

...and so on. You can make arguments for Peja, but smoking comment just shows your ignorance. Your comments will not influence my opinion which is based on much more info then you offered to support yours.

 

[outsider62]

Once again, you quote me OUT OF CONTEXT.

Actually he quoted you entire post, but bolded the part he commented.

 

[outsider62]

Oh, I think he'd have some hefty competition on that front. But certainly one of the smoothest playing today.

In any case, I am not really all that worried about Peja one way or the other this year. EXCEPT for the looming contract which is now a huge concern. But Bozz is right that the Peja as #1 controversy has been shelved, with us instead going with a dubious 5 amigos plan. EVERYBODY on the Kings is going to want to shoot. Except Brad, and we want him to shoot more. We have all the shots, shooters, scorers we need and then some, so the team's fate is no longer tied to Peja being great, nor even pulled down if Peja is terrible. He's just one of the guys. Part of the gang. So I am not terribly worried about him -- we've got other concerns. He's going to be what he has always been. I can certainly argue we need someone with balls at that position given the rest of our team, but the same thing could be said about several of our other positions. My personal guess has been about 22ppg, but depending on how the newcomers work out, how shot happy Kevin or Kenny are etc., could be 20ppg. And either way, a shrug. He'll fill his role, collect his check, go home. Have some big games, have some worthless ones. Be a good player on a team of good players. And if it weren't for the looming MAX contract for him sitting out there, and the attached threat that we could lose him for nothing at all, Peja just being Peja would not be nearly the problem it was 6 months ago. His importance to us is now nowhere near what it once was, and so too my anxiety about him failing and bringing us down with him is lessened.

You are missing a point or two why he is so good fit with a team full of scorers.

The main advantage is that he is so efficient without need to shoot much. So it means with Peja other scorers will have their share of shots and he will still put 20+ points per game and be very efficient at that.

Another point is that he plays defense well enough so there is no need to help on his guy. For other teams it's more expected then exceptional quality but on current kings team that makes him special

 

[outsider62]

That's funny... I don't recall being asked to rate Stojakovic against other members of the SCG National Team, or the ever-popular club play. [/qoute]?!? Unfortunatelly AK is not member of the SCG NT.

And Kirilenko hasn't made an impact in relevant games because he hasn't played any relevant games in the NBA; he's been oft-injured, and the Jazz have been terrible. But, Kirilenko's a five-tool player, and when he's anywhere in the same zip code as healthy, he's not only the best defensive Euro in the NBA, but one of the most well-rounded players in the NBA, period. He could probably put up Garnett-type numbers, if he took as many shots... I'd trade him for Stojakovic, straight up. Hell, I'd trade Stojakovic and anybody else on the team to get Kirilenko.

IMO AK is better player then Peja.
However, It is interesting that AK played alongside to HOFs and for a great coach and never made it out of 1st PO round. Also, I don't remember him winning PO game for Jazz. That just shows how arguments frequently used here to put Peja down can be used against other good players too. I paraphrased them recently in LBJ discussion, but it looks like nobody caught it.

 

[ParniValjak]

*yawn*

 

[Bricklayer]

You are missing a point or two why he is so good fit with a team full of scorers.

The main advantage is that he is so efficient without need to shoot much. So it means with Peja other scorers will have their share of shots and he will still put 20+ points per game and be very efficient at that.

Another point is that he plays defense well enough so there is no need to help on his guy. For other teams it's more expected then exceptional quality but on current kings team that makes him special

In the 03-04 season we had a practical clear out going for Peja the whole season. The other 4 starters (pre Webb's return) averaged 14.3 (Bibby), 10.1(Brad), 8.4 (Vlade) and 8.2 (Doug) shots a game. That's insane. By comparison in their last year as full time starters Bonzi and Shareef averaged 13.2 and 14.6 shots, and both also draw a lot of fouls (hence using even more possessions). With Bonzi averaging 15pts in 32min, and Reef 20pts in 38min, both well within expectations here (indeed Bonzi may well get more minutes and demand more shots). That's a lot of stats, but the end result is that Vlade/Doug = 16.6 shots a game competing with Peja, while Bonzi/Reef would be more like 27.8 -- a difference of over 11 shots a game in the starting lineup alone (and as an aside with only a fraction of the passing ability and none of the chemistry with Peja those two pass first guys had). A healthy chunk of those additional shots will come will directly out of Peja's totals, and the less Peja shoots, the less Peja helps. Throw in a more assertive Bibby and Miller who both averaged career highs last year, and Peja is like the runt chick calling for a worm -- a whole pile of more assertive chicks are calling for that worm too.

The point being this -- efficient or not, Peja is in prime position to get the fewest shots he's ever gotten as a starter for the Kings. And every shot lost diminishes his value to us. Its the whole reason he's on the floor. This is why rational team construction always includes a healthy number of guys who contribute without the ball. There are only so many shots. And even if Peja got hurt and missed the whole season, we have more than enough eager and talented scorers to take all of their shots, and all of Peja's too. That makes it hard for Peja to bring his A game consistently. Tough for any of them really. They are ALL expendable in that sense. But Peja most of all. He is the one who does the least outside of scoring. On a team without scorers landing a major one like Peja is gold. On a team composed of nothing BUT scorers, exactly the opposite is true.

P.S. What Peja can do is thrive with other players HANDLING the ball -- indeed he NEEDS others to do the handling and creating. But he cannot thrive with everybody else SHOOTING the ball. If Peja's not shooting, you might well be better off with Matt Barnes and Erik Daniels out there. Peja hasn't changed, but the team has, and so have its needs.

 

[starks]

The point being this -- efficient or not, Peja is in prime position to get the fewest shots he's ever gotten as a starter for the Kings. And every shot lost diminishes his value to us. Its the whole reason he's on the floor. This is why rational team construction always includes a healthy number of guys who contribute without the ball. There are only so many shots. And even if Peja got hurt and missed the whole season, we have more than enough eager and talented scorers to take all of their shots, and all of Peja's too. That makes it hard for Peja to bring his A game consistently. Tough for any of them really. They are ALL expendable in that sense. But Peja most of all. He is the one who does the least outside of scoring. On a team without scorers landing a major one like Peja is gold. On a team composed of nothing BUT scorers, exactly the opposite is true.

since we have that many scorers than thare is no an issue with his expiring contract...just let him go...why you would keep such avarege player (according to you) even for current price (8mil per yaear)?..... trade him for bruce bowen and put bw on 3.....or ask dallas for josh howard?....

 

[Bricklayer]

or ask dallas for josh howard?....

There have been worse ideas actually.

 

[outsider62]

Brick, you made good points. However, I think it would be in the Kings best interest to take away shots from Bibby, not from Peja. Bibby should play more pg then sg this year. He should distribute the ball to all scorers we have and take responsibility in 4th qtr. That way, plus actually playing defense he may become real leader. If he does that, Kings are as good as anyone. So I think, for this season Bibby is the key. Not Pedja. For next season, I believe Bonzie is gone the same way Cat was gone this year. If we are sucessfull this season (read WCF) and Peja doesn't choke in PO, he will end up with max contract. If not (which is more probable IMO), I don't know.

[Edited] Miller and SAR can share number of shots Miller and Webber shared last year. Bibby and Bonzie can share number of shots Doug and Bibby shared, Bibby taking less. Peja should take number of shots Peja took last year.

 

[sashaNJ]

I am not smoker, what about you?

How much do you know about Kukoc? I don't based my opinion on numbers. I followed their career from the beginning and I actually watch them play. Kukoc was successfully both as a team leader in Europe and as a team player in NBA. He was clutch player and he made hit teammates better. He was not #1 for MJ bulls, Peja was not #1 option for CW Kings...

...and so on. You can make arguments for Peja, but smoking comment just shows your ignorance. Your comments will not influence my opinion which is based on much more info then you offered to support yours.

I appologize for the smoking comment, it was more of a joke, but wrong person, I guess. oh boy, I know Kukoc at least 18 years back... remember Maljkovic, Radja, Kukoc, Savic and others taking Jugoplastika to the European title for the first time..Remember Cibona, Partizan and Jugoplastika and great Yugo playoffs back then....We're talking about a Chicago Bulls bench player here (6th Man award) comparable to Bobby Jackson, a guy that gives you 5-6 shots a night. And than we're talking about a 3 time All Star player, 2 time world champion, 2 time european champion, on top of that Euro League champion w/ Panateneikos. If I don't know much about basketball, his record shows it all.

 

[sashaNJ]

What are you talking about?????????

What I was referring to are the blind Peja homers, the people who are so convinced Mr. Stojakovic can walk on water AND feed the multitude with one fish that they cannot accept or even comprehend anyone not wanting to fall and worship at his feet.

Some of them praise Peja so highly that NO ONE could possibly live up to the high expectations.

There is a major difference between those few and the majority of Peja supporters, who are at least willing to recognize that Peja, like everyone else not holding claim to the title "son of God" is not perfect, and does have weaknesses.

My comment wasn't that I won't accept him for what he is. My comment was:


I'll clarify:

If some members of this forum, most of them of Serbian background, would stop acting as though Peja was in actuality UBERPEJA, then some of us wouldn't swing to the other side of the pendulum so drastically.

Peja isn't a failure, certainly, but he also isn't/hasn't been the savior of the Kings. The truth is somewhere in the middle. He is good, very good. He is arguably - at least at times - the best pure shooter in the league today. BUT he is not perfect; he has failings; he is - like virtually every other player in the game - subject to criticism.

Give credit where it is due, certainly, but going too far in the praise/acclaim direction invariably leads to some of us wanting to balance it out.

That's what I meant. If that - an ultimate attempt to be fair - is petty, then so be it.

When you say that, for some reason I recognize myself in your comments. Peja is far from UberPeja, and I never said anything about his basketball skills being magical or something. I just don't think he gets credit enough being the original drafted King, and probably spending his career in Sacramento. Everyone keeps talking about (2) of Bibby's miracle shots (maybe even one) and right after that putting Peja down. That last shot in the game does not count that much, you got to get there, and Peja's 20+ points certanly help you with that. I am a big Peja fan, and also a big critic, and I know he's not "the" man, but I will take his 20 points every night.

 

[sashaNJ]

I am quite aware that most/all Pedja boosters are Serbian or Serbian-America/Canadian and some seem to worship him. You could argue that in a country (or coming from the country) that has until recently been a pariah state and where per capit a GDP is still 1/5 of what it weas before the war, with little or no prospect for things to get any better any time soon and where basketball is one of the few things in which we excell and are able to be competitive in, over-zealos "Pedja love" is a form of nationalism/patriotism.

I worship Michael Jordan, Larry Bird and Dejan Bodiroga only, never Peja. But I support my team and the players, no matter what they do. Vlade Divac and Peja are the reason I got introduced to the Kings, but after a little while Kings were my team, and still are after Vlade is gone, and will be after Peja is gone. I loved Doug, old Webb (before he started talking crap and not taking responsibility for his actions), Hedo, Pollard, Jason, even Cleeves. I do not call for trade every time they miss a shot.
That is a low blow now. What does financial situation of one's country had to do with being patriotic. In that case, the States, doing well financialy, shouldn't be patriots. And guess what, Americans are the bigest patriots I've ever seen. People hang US flags on their houses for gods sake, here in the States. Try not to go there (serbian or whatsoever) and look at yourself , please.

 

[bozzwell]

I worship Michael Jordan, Larry Bird and Dejan Bodiroga only, never Peja. But I support my team and the players, no matter what they do. Vlade Divac and Peja are the reason I got introduced to the Kings, but after a little while Kings were my team, and still are after Vlade is gone, and will be after Peja is gone. I loved Doug, old Webb (before he started talking crap and not taking responsibility for his actions), Hedo, Pollard, Jason, even Cleeves. I do not call for trade every time they miss a shot.
That is a low blow now. What does financial situation of one's country had to do with being patriotic. In that case, the States, doing well financialy, shouldn't be patriots. And guess what, Americans are the bigest patriots I've ever seen. People hang US flags on their houses for gods sake, here in the States. Try not to go there (serbian or whatsoever) and look at yourself , please.

How is that a low blow? I am Serbian and the reason I am here (in US and UK before that) is because things went to you know where. Believe me, even though UK/US life has treated me exceptionally well, I would much rather have less and have no reason to ever leave Serbia.

My comment is appropriate in a sense that for Serbia/Serbians basketball is much more then "a game". It is our national treasure and for now there is not much else to get fired up about. If you read it that way you would have understood my point.

 

[sashaNJ]

How is that a low blow? I am Serbian and the reason I am here (in US and UK before that) is because things went to you know where. Believe me, even though UK/US life has treated me exceptionally well, I would much rather have less and have no reason to ever leave Serbia.

My comment is appropriate in a sense that for Serbia/Serbians basketball is much more then "a game". It is our national treasure and for now there is not much else to get fired up about. If you read it that way you would have understood my point.

No.1.....If you read her quote, "serbians love Peja's *** cause they're being patriotic, and they're being patriotic cause they're poor." (short) read it first, please.
No.2.....For you Serbian kids, basketball might more than a game, but I don't look at it that way, and for certain none of my friends or family does. Basketball is only fun
No.3 ......It was your comment at all, was it?
No.4.......kingsfans.com, not serbianfans.com

 

[sashaNJ]

It is our national treasure and for now there is not much else to get fired up about.

How about you get fired up with world championship in waterpolo, world league in volleyball, world cup qualifying in football (real football), euro championship in handball. How about all those sports that we win medals at, all the time ?
How about you get fired up about Serbia and Montenegro being approved of starting the transition to join EU, yesterday. Lots of good news, you sound like Milosevic is still rulling the country!

 

[bozzwell]

No.1.....If you read her quote, "serbians love Peja's *** cause they're being patriotic, and they're being patriotic cause they're poor." (short) read it first, please.
No.2.....For you Serbian kids, basketball might more than a game, but I don't look at it that way, and for certain none of my friends or family does. Basketball is only fun
No.3 ......It was your comment at all, was it?
No.4.......kingsfans.com, not serbianfans.com

Will you please get of the high horse for a second and try to understand what I am saying here (I don't care about anyone else's comments, as they are not mine)? There is a very small minority of members on this forum who are unappologetic Pedja applogists. Some/many/most of them are of Serbian descent and they get easily riled up when it comes to Pedja debates. My points are:

1. Even if for the sake of fairness of the Forum someone/anyone takes extreme positions in Pedja debate, it is still unfair to Pedja, no matter how fair and balanced the Forum appears.
2. There are cultural and other differences involved that may explain (but not excuse) certain positions on this board. Like I said before, if I start from myself, sometimes I just don't get it: Why is A.I. a great player? Can there be more unimaginative and ugly basketball then iso or pick-and-roll? Why are skill-less but tough players revered and skillfull but soft players sneered at? Is it possible that I think that way because of where I come from and what game I grew up on? I have adapted to every other aspect of life in USA perfectly - except basketball. I even have season tickets for Bears and Cubs (sports I never even understood before coming here).

And basketball is never just a game to me.