Tyreke Evans(lets have an honest conversation)

[swisshh]

I am probably closer to bajaden's thoughts than most realize. I value Tyreke getting a jumper because it will make what he's good at work that much better. It is also a skill that can improve over time.

Also before anyone jumps in with his shooting percentage improvement last year, of course, I realize that. I also realize that it's not actually relevant to this discussion. He's not a good shooter yet. He learned to be more selective and was told to take that three from the diagonal and that has improved his percentage. The issue is "Has anything really changed?" He's still not a shooter that teams worry about leaving open, and that's what he needs to open up space for the rest of his game. Teams aren't going to look at his % and say "don't leave him open for three!", and that truly is what matters for both Reke and the team. When Reke is more than a one dimensional threat is when he'll be worth what some fans think he's worth.

 

[Gary]

So, you're saying, according to your working definition of "realistic," Evans is as good, right now, as he's ever going to get?

He's not an all-star yet, and guys like Ginobli play a part in championship teams/contenders so what's wrong with that?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Well, as I mentioned in my reply to Boogie-havoc, I wasn't allowing myself to get stuck on the "All-Star" part. I decided not read the OP as if it were a Boolean statement. I chose to roll with the interpretation that Evans is a Tier III player, according to the OP's criteria, if he hits four out of five (and, IMO, he does), rather than a hard and fast linear interpretation of "Well, the very first part doesn't apply, therefore none of it applies, therefore he's not as good as a Tier III player."

And the other major problem, as rainmaker astutely points out, is that the OP's premise is flawed from the beginning, relative to using only past accomplishments to rate players. How many people here would go on record with the claim that Cousins will never be an All-Star, based on the fact that he hasn't been an All-Star?

As to the specific question of what's "wrong" with it, it seemed to me as though Boogie-havoc, in saying that "Tier III," a level that I think he's already at, is his "realistic" ceiling, is therefore saying that he's as good right now as he's ever going to get.

2nd EDIT- That, and the fact that the statements "but also have glaring weaknesses that will ever let them become absolute key parts of a championship or competitive team," and "These guys are most likely to be 3rd options on a championship team" are utterly incongruous. In what universe is a third option not a key part of a championship team?

 

[Padrino]

Well, as I mentioned in my reply to Boogie-havoc, I wasn't allowing myself to get stuck on the "All-Star" part. I decided not read the OP as if it were a Boolean statement. I chose to roll with the interpretation that Evans is a Tier III player, according to the OP's criteria, if he hits four out of five (and, IMO, he does), rather than a hard and fast linear interpretation of "Well, the very first part doesn't apply, therefore none of it applies, therefore he's not as good as a Tier III player."

And the other major problem, as rainmaker astutely points out, is that the OP's premise is flawed from the beginning, relative to using only past accomplishments to rate players. How many people here would go on record with the claim that Cousins will never be an All-Star, based on the fact that he hasn't been an All-Star?

As to the specific question of what's "wrong" with it, it seemed to me as though Boogie-havoc, in saying that "Tier III," a level that I think he's already at, is his "realistic" ceiling, is therefore saying that he's as good right now as he's ever going to get.

2nd EDIT- That, and the fact that the statements "but also have glaring weaknesses that will ever let them become absolute key parts of a championship or competitive team," and "These guys are most likely to be 3rd options on a championship team" are utterly incongruous. In what universe is a third option not a key part of a championship team?

this is one of the most historically prevalent and mind-numbingly strange arguments touted amongst cousins' and evans' most overbearing detractors at kf.com across the last couple of seasons, to make the claim that, because they are not all-stars at this early stage of their respective careers, they are not of an all-star caliber potential. it's terrible logic as an isolated phenomenon, but beyond that, there's not one among us who would actively assert that the past seven seasons were managed well by the kings' organization. ownership/management/coaching were all performing so far below what you might call a "standard of excellence" that the average fan could look up and spot heaven before they'd be able to envision a scenario in which the maloofs, geoff petrie, and whatever cut-rate coach they hired would have been able to turn this thing around...

petrie was sleep-walking through his job and satisfying the maloofs' desire to do just enough, to appear as though they were interested in spending the money necessary to win. but the maloofs clearly were not interested in winning. the jimmer pick was as cynical a move as i've ever seen: draft an overrated "great white hope" type of player who will sell a ton of jerseys despite the fact that the team had a great many other needs worth addressing, and shut up paul westphal--who was clamoring for a starting-caliber SF--by bringing back john salmons in the trade. it was a cluster**** of epic proportions, rated as one of the worst draft-day trades in the history of the lottery, all while kawhi leonard was there for the taking, and may very well have addressed a team need. of course, his then-obscurity and laconic personality wouldn't exactly have lined the maloofs' pockets with a few jersey sales and a few more fans sneaking down to the lower levels in a mostly-empty building during a losing season. i won't even bother detailing the pitfalls of paul westphal and keith smart, who at all times were threatening to upstage their bosses at the level of ineptitude...

i mean, this is a team that made chuck hayes and aaron brooks it's splashiest acquisitions in the last couple of offseasons, and managed to botch both of those moves, first by voiding the initial contract they had signed hayes to for medical reasons, and then attaching an extra million per year onto his contract to make up for it when he was cleared to play. the following year they signed aaron brooks to an overstuffed backcourt just to waive him midseason. it's the work of absolute morons, individuals completely uninterested in building a winning team for a city of hungry fans. of course, an organization that operates in this fashion couldn't possibly be responsible for the stunted growth of its two most talented players, who have, despite massive failure at every level of the organization, still managed to develop into talents of all-star potential...

 

[mcsluggo]

in my opinion, it's only a losing battle if the kings decide to let tyreke evans walk...

in an era where the free throw has taken considerably more precedence in how the game is played, i have no idea why fans prefer jump shooters, who rarely get to the free throw line. i mean, i suppose i can appreciate the aesthetics of it all. a player with a killer jump shot is a nice thing to watch. it's pretty, and oh how the fans love pretty things. but a freight train like tyreke evans who uses strength to take what he wants, rather than simply taking what the defense gives him, is considerably less pretty, i guess. a great many kings fans simply do not enjoy his style of play, and use it as an excuse to treat one of the team's most talented players like a punching bag despite the glaringly obvious organizational failures that have harmed just about every player that's been shuffled on and off the kings' roster in the last seven seasons...

i dunno, i've always loved my basketball ugly. i like defensive basketball. i like a team that overpowers its opponent, that roughs 'em up, that gets to the rim and, subsequently, that gets to the free throw line, which puts me in the minority of kings fans, a great many of whom prefer a style of play akin to the team we all remember so well from the glory years. but that style of play is nearly an artifact, considering the way the nba has evolved in the decade since. defense and an elite rim attack are an absolute priority now, because again, with the free throw line having taken on such significance in the wake of changes to the rulebook, a team must maximize their opportunities in the paint, while limiting their opponents opportunities in the paint. you can try to get around it by way of developing a big-time three-point shooting team, but not one team who makes three-point shooting a priority has won an nba finals in the last decade. it's why howard left orlando. it's why golden state got bounced in the west semi's this year. but a player like tyreke evans, whether "tier 2" or not, is the kinda guy i want on my team, because he maximizes my team's opportunities in the paint at an incredibly efficient rate...

nobody wants Reke to BE a jumpshot player, everybody wants Reke to HAVE a jumpshot game... so that it will be even more impossible to defend his penetration one-on-one. Right? you want him to be able to punish defenders that back off to try to position against the drive.

 

[Spike]

Man, I'm so glad I went camping this weekend and missed out on this one.

 

[Padrino]

nobody wants Reke to BE a jumpshot player, everybody wants Reke to HAVE a jumpshot game... so that it will be even more impossible to defend his penetration one-on-one. Right? you want him to be able to punish defenders that back off to try to position against the drive.

indeed, and i don't disagree with you an ounce. i want tyreke to further develop his jumpshot, and there is plenty of evidence that he's improved already, and i believe he will continue to do so. but if i wasn't clear enough, the post you quoted was made in general response to those who suggest that the kings can absorb the loss of tyreke evans by replacing him with a jump shooter like ben mclemore...