Bosnian Diehard
Starter
The top tier guys have also been in the league for a long time and have received good coaching in order to iron out their negatives, too.
Tyreke Evans(lets have an honest conversation)
- Thread starter jcwkings
- Start date
The top tier guys have also been in the league for a long time and have received good coaching in order to iron out their negatives, too.
Yep. Expectations sprinkled with hope.
Tier 3 for me is the least he will be.
Next year will be telling whether he is perenial allstar in waiting held back by coaches incompetence or just very good player.
Boogie-havoc
Bench
There's realistic ceiling and unrealistic ceiling.
In his realistic ceiling, he's tier 3 - in the unrealistic ceiling he's tier 2.
In his realistic ceiling, he's tier 3 - in the unrealistic ceiling he's tier 2.
So, you're saying, according to your working definition of "realistic," Evans is as good, right now, as he's ever going to get?
Boogie-havoc
Bench
How did you get that from my words?
Unless you're of the opinion Tyreke right now is an all-star level player, which I don't, and that's where the disagreement comes from.
Unless you're of the opinion Tyreke right now is an all-star level player, which I don't, and that's where the disagreement comes from.
I get that from the OP's definition of a "Tier 3" basketball player, and not letting myself get caught up on the "All-Star" part:
- Do I think that he has 1-2 elite-level skills? Yes.
- Do I think that he could be the third-best player on a championship team, right now? Yes.
- Do I think that he could be the second-best player on a playoff team, right now? Yes.
- Do I think that he's an All-Star, right now? I'm not sure. I haven't seen him play often enough, with the reigns off, to answer that question.
Now that I think on it, let me modify that second bullet some:
Do I think that he could be the third-best player on a championship team? Depends on who the other two players are. If the other two players are Carmelo Anthony and Tyson Chandler, then no. If they're Chris Paul and Blake Griffin, then hell no. If they're Tony Parker and Tim Duncan, then yes. If they're LeBron James and Chris Bosh, then hell yes.
If they're Paul George and Roy Hibbert? I don't know.
Do I think that he could be the third-best player on a championship team? Depends on who the other two players are. If the other two players are Carmelo Anthony and Tyson Chandler, then no. If they're Chris Paul and Blake Griffin, then hell no. If they're Tony Parker and Tim Duncan, then yes. If they're LeBron James and Chris Bosh, then hell yes.
If they're Paul George and Roy Hibbert? I don't know.
Chupacabra
Starter
The problem with the OP's ranking system is it defines a players "tier level" by his career accomplishments. I think it's possible for a player to be a tier 1 for 2-3 years while he's in his prime and then go down to a tier 2 or 3 player as he gets older. As of now with all things considered I think that in Malone's system Tyreke will be a tier 2 player.
Purple Reign
Starter
I don't think Tyreke is Tier 1, 2 or 3 and I still think he should be the starting point guard (if and this is a big if Ben Mc is ready to step in and start at the shooting guard).
I don't think Tyreke is, was or ever will be a Tier 1 elite player in the NBA. However his non ability to master the key fundamental of a guard and that is to shoot the ball consistently has kept Tyreke from reaching his full potential. In my opinion Tyreke Evans skill wise is a better player than Steph Curry, Andre Igudala, Ty Lawson, Danny Green, John Wall, Eric Bledsoe, Klay Thompson, Harrison Barnes. It is his inability to master the jump shot that is keeping him at the bottom of that list of players. Tyreke should be talked about regularly with those guys and he is not.
The Kings have given Evans a fair qualifying offer. And i do not believe he will get what he wants on the open market. The Kings should then offer Evans a 2 year with a player option for a third year contract. That takes us to 2016 going into the new building. By that time we should know where we are with Tyreke Evans under this new regime.
Jason Kidd and Magic Johnson developed All Star shooting ability later into their careers. That is my hope for Tyreke, and if that happens, he should be the starting POINT GUARD of this team for years to come.
I don't think Tyreke is, was or ever will be a Tier 1 elite player in the NBA. However his non ability to master the key fundamental of a guard and that is to shoot the ball consistently has kept Tyreke from reaching his full potential. In my opinion Tyreke Evans skill wise is a better player than Steph Curry, Andre Igudala, Ty Lawson, Danny Green, John Wall, Eric Bledsoe, Klay Thompson, Harrison Barnes. It is his inability to master the jump shot that is keeping him at the bottom of that list of players. Tyreke should be talked about regularly with those guys and he is not.
The Kings have given Evans a fair qualifying offer. And i do not believe he will get what he wants on the open market. The Kings should then offer Evans a 2 year with a player option for a third year contract. That takes us to 2016 going into the new building. By that time we should know where we are with Tyreke Evans under this new regime.
Jason Kidd and Magic Johnson developed All Star shooting ability later into their careers. That is my hope for Tyreke, and if that happens, he should be the starting POINT GUARD of this team for years to come.
You said he doesn't have the requisite athletic ability to be in the first category. I gave you one of the best players in the league who doesn't have the athletic ability. So you say Paul is a different kind of player, which is true. And Tyreke will have to be a different player too if he wants get better. Which leads to what I said. I don't think the athletic ability is what is holding him back. You make him a better leaper and faster and he still wont be the top tier, as it is classified here, unless he improves all those other areas. None of which have to do with his speed, quickness or explosiveness.
And dunking at 6ft is far from some kind of special athletic accomplishment for a pro basketball player. He isn't an exceptionally athletic player, and doesn't need to be.
Chupacabra
Starter
Danny Green? DANNY GREEN!? GIVE ME A FREAKING BREAK!!! Even nice players like Klay Thompson and Harrison Barnes shouldnt be compared to Tyreke. My goodness! The OBVIOUS difference here is that none of the players ive mentioned other than Tyreke have game controlling ability. The way some on this forum undervalue our players and over value players on different teams is ridiculous. Someone in a different thread was saying we should consider trading DMC to NO if we could get back Vasquez, lopez and anderson. LAUGHABLE!!!
Dime Dropper
All-Star
I'm always surprised when people are impressed that a small NBA player can dunk (I'm not talking about the stuff freaks like Nate do, I'm talking about people being impressed that the likes of Paul, IT etc. can dunk) - I'd be absolutely shocked if there's been any NBA players over the last few decades that couldn't dunk, regardless of height! Players like Jimmer are able to dunk pretty effortlessly (obviously not during games). But I digress...
Telemachus
Starter
I'm sorry, but Green, Thompson, and Barnes are all guys with specific roles that don't currently belong in the same conversation as Tyreke (currently). I find it interesting that you mention John Wall as a player that Tyreke has more skills than but has to improve his shooting to be better than. John Wall makes Tyreke look like a great shooter in comparison (and that is saying something). Not sure why Bledsoe is even mentioned. I like his potential, but he's been stuck at the end of a bench most of his career and hasn't been able to show much more than his potential.
Purple Reign
Starter
You are making my point exactly!!!!! Tyreke's skill set (passing, court vision, rebounding, on ball defense, running the floor and the team, getting to the basket) is better than Green and the rest of those guys maybe not Andre Igludala. I'm not undervaluing Evans at all. But those other guys are "consistent" offensive contributors to playoff caliber teams. Tyreke's inability to consistently put the ball in the basket from 12 feet and beyond these past four seasons is what is holding him back.
Coaching, front office and the whole dysfunctional vibe of the Kings franchise has played a significant factor in Evans development. But Danny Green was cut twice from the Spurs and was a major factor in their post season success. Evans has to own up to his shortcomings (and I believe he has) and must get better.
This reminds me of the discussion before the draft about Noel Nerlens going number one. He has poor offensive skills, weighs 215 pounds, and has a knee injury. Except for that he is a great prospect.
Evans is injury prone, has an erractic shot, and a small motor. He drives into traffic late in games and turns the ball over. Otherwise he is a perennial all-star. He is a good player but I checked other.
Evans is injury prone, has an erractic shot, and a small motor. He drives into traffic late in games and turns the ball over. Otherwise he is a perennial all-star. He is a good player but I checked other.
Dime Dropper
All-Star
Facepalm
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Not sure why Kings fans of all people use accomplishments to rate players. Yes they have their place in the conversation and always will, but too often we hear this player or that player isn't that good because a) he hasn't made an All Star team or b) the team isn't in the playoffs yet. So I ask, going by the theory presented, where would two of our own have ranked?
Mitch Richmond
Mike Bibby
Mitch is an interesting case as he was a multiple time All Star when the team wasn't winning. Won in GS as part of Run TMC, but wasn't on a winning team here. Was he worse because of it? No, he wasn't. I remember 96, game 3 was the first playoff game I ever went to, but it was also the only season one could argue Mitch made us a playoff team. We hear all the time Reke isn't that good, nor is Cuz, because we're still winning 28 games with them. Well, we didn't win that much more with the 2nd best SG in the league.
Then we have Bibby, PG and key piece during our golden era, perennial playoff team yet he never made an All Star game, although I'd argue was an All Star level player for a good 2-3 stretch and not making it doesn't lessen what he did for us, how important he was for us or how good he was for us in his prime. All Star appearances and/ or accomplishments don't validate or confirm how successful the careers of these two were, and with a team who's had both a great player who didn't win when here and a great player who did win but didn't get All Star recognition, I'm surprised on such a young team with a completely unbalanced roster with worse coaching and in a toxic environment(up until 1-2 months ago) some are using accomplishments/wins so heavily.
Your personal talent level and personal ceiling has little do to with winning/losing on its own. Coaching/environment and supporting cast is a huge factor. Pierce wasn't suddenly a better player when KG/Allen signed up, but they started winning. Wade wasn't a worse player when Miami's supporting cast was terrible and they either didn't make the playoffs or got bounced in the first round. Kobe wasn't a worse player when LA didn't make the playoffs and also got bounced in the first round. DWill wasn't some terrible PG because NJ wasn't good his first year there, and he won't suddenly be twice as good when they're a contender next year. If Love played in Hou next to Asik/Harden and made the playoffs, he isn't suddenly a better or more talented player than when he was in Minn. But then to partly use that criteria to define 21-23 yr olds in a terrible situation makes even less sense.
Talent/ceiling is a different discussion than determining in part how good a player can be due to the winning %'s of team's he's been on, and the latter argument makes little sense to me.
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double face palm. i think that's a much better way to preserve my energy than try and respond.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Funny, isn't it?
Kings Faithful
Starter
I was leaning towards keeping Tyreke but after the draft I feel like a sign and trade would be whats best. I'm all for giving him some time to see how he does under the new regime but as far as team building goes we could get some serious return at some major holes if we were to trade him with 1 or 2 of our other role players.
S
Shabazz916
Guest
Tier 2 with possiblity of a 1 if he is a pg.
He has all the skills questionable jumper but no1 is perfect. He has all the other skills tho
He has all the skills questionable jumper but no1 is perfect. He has all the other skills tho
bajaden
Hall of Famer
tier 2, the kinda guy you pair with, say, your elite big man, surrounding both with defensive roleplayers and jump shooters...
one step ahead of you, friend...
I have to drink just to come to this fourm!
now this is a facepalm
Tyreke is tier 3 and can be valuable if grows into an Iggy role. However, if he gets put at PG it's bad news for his career, and because of that, bad news for the Kings.
TheWileyVet
Starter
I'm shocked at how many tier 1 & 2 votes there are. Put down the kool-aid y'all
Padrino
All-Star
i'm kinda amazed by how overvalued a jumpshot is around these parts. who exactly do you think was hitting jumpers of any kind during the nba finals? danny green. gary neal. ray allen. mike miller. roleplayers. it was rarely tony parker, manu ginobili, dwyane wade, or lebron james. in fact, james was brickin' jumpers pretty regularly in the finals until he finally caught fire from three in game 7. but guys like parker, wade, james, etc. have a way of getting to the rim when it matters, an elite-level skill that tyreke evans shares. these players are, of course, better jump shooters than tyreke is, at present, but they all had to develop that shot to arrive where they are today...
and if someone tells me that it is more likely for ben mclemore to develop an elite-level rim attack than for tyreke evans to develop an adequate jumpshot (which he has improved already, for the record), then you are, quite simply, out of your mind. an elite rim attack (dwyane wade) always supplants an elite jump shot (ray allen) in the hierarchy of talent, though it certainly takes a combination of those skills to arrive in the "first tier" of nba talent (lebron james). by most of your accounts, all tyreke needs to do is work on his jumper to sneak into this supposed "second tier" (the breakdown in the OP is rather flawed, in my opinion), and you believe that's somehow out of reach for a player of his caliber? i don't get it. i'll never get it. i sure as **** hope you people don't spend your weekends in vegas, cuz you're not playing the odds...
and if someone tells me that it is more likely for ben mclemore to develop an elite-level rim attack than for tyreke evans to develop an adequate jumpshot (which he has improved already, for the record), then you are, quite simply, out of your mind. an elite rim attack (dwyane wade) always supplants an elite jump shot (ray allen) in the hierarchy of talent, though it certainly takes a combination of those skills to arrive in the "first tier" of nba talent (lebron james). by most of your accounts, all tyreke needs to do is work on his jumper to sneak into this supposed "second tier" (the breakdown in the OP is rather flawed, in my opinion), and you believe that's somehow out of reach for a player of his caliber? i don't get it. i'll never get it. i sure as **** hope you people don't spend your weekends in vegas, cuz you're not playing the odds...
Dime Dropper
All-Star
I don't know how you have the patience, Padrino. Hats off to you, but I think you're fighting a losing battle.
Padrino
All-Star
in my opinion, it's only a losing battle if the kings decide to let tyreke evans walk...
in an era where the free throw has taken considerably more precedence in how the game is played, i have no idea why fans prefer jump shooters, who rarely get to the free throw line. i mean, i suppose i can appreciate the aesthetics of it all. a player with a killer jump shot is a nice thing to watch. it's pretty, and oh how the fans love pretty things. but a freight train like tyreke evans who uses strength to take what he wants, rather than simply taking what the defense gives him, is considerably less pretty, i guess. a great many kings fans simply do not enjoy his style of play, and use it as an excuse to treat one of the team's most talented players like a punching bag despite the glaringly obvious organizational failures that have harmed just about every player that's been shuffled on and off the kings' roster in the last seven seasons...
i dunno, i've always loved my basketball ugly. i like defensive basketball. i like a team that overpowers its opponent, that roughs 'em up, that gets to the rim and, subsequently, that gets to the free throw line, which puts me in the minority of kings fans, a great many of whom prefer a style of play akin to the team we all remember so well from the glory years. but that style of play is nearly an artifact, considering the way the nba has evolved in the decade since. defense and an elite rim attack are an absolute priority now, because again, with the free throw line having taken on such significance in the wake of changes to the rulebook, a team must maximize their opportunities in the paint, while limiting their opponents opportunities in the paint. you can try to get around it by way of developing a big-time three-point shooting team, but not one team who makes three-point shooting a priority has won an nba finals in the last decade. it's why howard left orlando. it's why golden state got bounced in the west semi's this year. but a player like tyreke evans, whether "tier 2" or not, is the kinda guy i want on my team, because he maximizes my team's opportunities in the paint at an incredibly efficient rate...
bajaden
Hall of Famer
All I have to say, is that I think people, looking for a reference point, tend to pigeon hole players into a box. Sometimes to the extent, they never get out of that box. At least to the person making that judgement. Every player seems to be compared to an already established player, and depending on your bias, that reference player can be Michael Jordan/Lebron James, or Tyrus Thomas/Michael Beasley. Anyway, I think you get my point. How many times have you gone to a game, and you look at said player, and remember that he has no outside shot. And your amazed when he goes 4 for 5 from the three, and ends up with a total of 20 points in the game. I mean, what the hell happened? Well, he improved!
Frankly I don't give a tinkers damm whether Tyreke is tier one, or tier five, as long as he fits what the team is doing, and the team is winning. Now in that regard, I don't have the answer yet, because I don't know what kind of offense Malone is going to run, and what part he see's Tyreke playing in that offense, if he's indeed playing at all. Tyreke is a very talented player. I hate to be redundit, but there aren't many in the NBA that can get to the basket the way he can, and to put it simply, what separates great players from avearge one's, the one's that play a role, is that the great one's have at least one thing that they do, that few others can do. If you have that, then all you need to do is fill in the holes, and wa la, your an all star.
Being an all star is very nice and all that, but its not an indication that your significantly better than someone else at your position that didn't make it. Many times its a matter of attrition. Sometimes you just happen to play a positiion thats loaded with very good to great players, and you just didn't draw the lucky straw. Sometimes its a matter of politics. A bad reputation around the league can can lose you votes, but that doesn't mean your not as good as the player that made it. I think we need to be more careful as to what we use as a measuring stick. I think players need to be judged by who they are and their accomplishments, and not what you think he should be, and what you thought he should accomplish. And I think we need to remember, that players change and improve, especially in the first 4 or 5 years. And many times, that improvement is dictated by the coaching staff, as well as the players own desires. You can't teach desire, but you can direct it. I don't think Tyreke has had proper direction. And of course he's not alone in that dept.
I have no idea whats going to happen in the next couple of months. But I can safely assume that some of us won't be happy with some of it. But then, thats what makes the world go round.
Frankly I don't give a tinkers damm whether Tyreke is tier one, or tier five, as long as he fits what the team is doing, and the team is winning. Now in that regard, I don't have the answer yet, because I don't know what kind of offense Malone is going to run, and what part he see's Tyreke playing in that offense, if he's indeed playing at all. Tyreke is a very talented player. I hate to be redundit, but there aren't many in the NBA that can get to the basket the way he can, and to put it simply, what separates great players from avearge one's, the one's that play a role, is that the great one's have at least one thing that they do, that few others can do. If you have that, then all you need to do is fill in the holes, and wa la, your an all star.
Being an all star is very nice and all that, but its not an indication that your significantly better than someone else at your position that didn't make it. Many times its a matter of attrition. Sometimes you just happen to play a positiion thats loaded with very good to great players, and you just didn't draw the lucky straw. Sometimes its a matter of politics. A bad reputation around the league can can lose you votes, but that doesn't mean your not as good as the player that made it. I think we need to be more careful as to what we use as a measuring stick. I think players need to be judged by who they are and their accomplishments, and not what you think he should be, and what you thought he should accomplish. And I think we need to remember, that players change and improve, especially in the first 4 or 5 years. And many times, that improvement is dictated by the coaching staff, as well as the players own desires. You can't teach desire, but you can direct it. I don't think Tyreke has had proper direction. And of course he's not alone in that dept.
I have no idea whats going to happen in the next couple of months. But I can safely assume that some of us won't be happy with some of it. But then, thats what makes the world go round.
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