What is up with De'Aaron Fox?
- Thread starter Singhisking
- Start date
I honestly just forgot Gordan Hayward existed and was once on the Utah Jazz. But also... considering that Hayward in his "absolute prime" was only about as good as Harrison Barnes has been this season, I'm not sure I was wrong to forget him either. He's an above average player who snuck unto an All-Star roster once. Mainly I was trying to wink at the Kings fans who have been around here long enough to remember how much this board hated George Hill when he was here. And also to point out how different it is to draft a player 13th and put him on a winning team vs. drafting a player 5th and throwing him into an inferno of incompetence.
It's not that I think Fox is untouchable. It's more that I don't like the general attitude of the fans right now, essentially giving up on the team after 20 games and throwing Fox under the bus when he's done nothing but improve for the previous 4 seasons. I don't think anybody (other than maybe Vlade) has called Fox a franchise player. He is a max contract player but that's a matter of economics. If we didn't offer him a max extension we would have risked losing him for nothing in free agency (like Phoenix is doing with Deandre Ayton and Charlotte is doing with Miles Bridges). I do think he's one of the better starting PG's in the league right now and he could be an important piece on a winning team but he can't do it all himself. Especially when the offensive system he's been saddled running for the last 2 seasons is probably the worst in the league.
Secondly, regarding the question of loyalty it also bothers me that Fox for Simmons is getting so much positive traction when Fox has been unwavering since day 1 that he wants to play for Sacramento at a time when nobody wanted to play for Sacramento and Ben Simmons is in the process of setting fire to his relationship with his current team. Or rather he already set it on fire then built a rocket and launched it out of the solar system and the only reason he's still on the Sixers is that nobody in their right mind would offer an All-Star for him after the way he played last season and the way he's acting right now yet Daryl Morey will only accept an All Star and multiple picks in return. Just ask Philly fans what they think of Ben Simmons right now. I do think Ben Simmons could be worth taking a chance on if Morey caves and accepts fair value for him but it's crazy to think he's going to solve all of our problems or even that he's going to be better for us than Fox has been. Right now he's the shiny new bauble in the grocery store window but if he were playing for the Kings right now his flaws would quickly become magnified just like Fox's have been.
The current attitude across all of professional sports (and honestly, it probably goes much further than that) is that everyone is out for themselves, front offices let algorithms do the thinking for them and players can refuse to play for HoF coaches and demand a trade if their feelings get hurt. There's certainly some merit to the idea that a front office needs to remain open-minded and flexible but if you treat players like assets rather than people you can't justly be offended when they give you minimal effort after signing a guaranteed contract or take plays off to lessen their chance of suffering an injury. The biggest tragedy of our rebuilding effort I think is the way the very players and head coach who brought us so much joy were unceremoniously cast aside in the name of "progress". I don't know that the fans deserved 16 years of losing for the former front office's transgressions but certainly somebody needed to learn a lesson about what is truly important in the world...
Sure a championship trophy would be nice but I work just 2 miles away from Staples Center, close enough that I will always root against them in the playoffs simply because their championship parade goes down Figueroa and makes it almost impossible for me to get to work on time. Two weeks after the Lakers won their league-best 19th championship trophy the fans were back to complaining about their team just like we do. Winning doesn't make the world a better place. I'd settle for having a team of players who are fun to watch and like playing together. It's taken me 16 years of losing to finally appreciate this but I don't think I actually care about a championship anymore. I enjoy watching sports because I like the genuine human drama of people falling and picking themselves up again, of overcoming their demons and finding moments of greatness, of accomplishing things together as a team. For instance, seeing Marvin Bagley have a great game tonight after the way he's been dragged through the mud (and I have to admit, I'm guilty of a fair amount of mud dragging myself) was more special to me than getting the win. It's obvious Fox is struggling with something right now but I hope he fights through it cause he's my guy. I don't know why. There's no statistical reason and I've never met the man. I liked the way he played at Kentucky, I was thrilled when the Kings drafted him, and I've enjoyed seeing his progress over the years. I don't feel like I need more of a reason than that.
Secondly, regarding the question of loyalty it also bothers me that Fox for Simmons is getting so much positive traction when Fox has been unwavering since day 1 that he wants to play for Sacramento at a time when nobody wanted to play for Sacramento and Ben Simmons is in the process of setting fire to his relationship with his current team. Or rather he already set it on fire then built a rocket and launched it out of the solar system and the only reason he's still on the Sixers is that nobody in their right mind would offer an All-Star for him after the way he played last season and the way he's acting right now yet Daryl Morey will only accept an All Star and multiple picks in return. Just ask Philly fans what they think of Ben Simmons right now. I do think Ben Simmons could be worth taking a chance on if Morey caves and accepts fair value for him but it's crazy to think he's going to solve all of our problems or even that he's going to be better for us than Fox has been. Right now he's the shiny new bauble in the grocery store window but if he were playing for the Kings right now his flaws would quickly become magnified just like Fox's have been.
The current attitude across all of professional sports (and honestly, it probably goes much further than that) is that everyone is out for themselves, front offices let algorithms do the thinking for them and players can refuse to play for HoF coaches and demand a trade if their feelings get hurt. There's certainly some merit to the idea that a front office needs to remain open-minded and flexible but if you treat players like assets rather than people you can't justly be offended when they give you minimal effort after signing a guaranteed contract or take plays off to lessen their chance of suffering an injury. The biggest tragedy of our rebuilding effort I think is the way the very players and head coach who brought us so much joy were unceremoniously cast aside in the name of "progress". I don't know that the fans deserved 16 years of losing for the former front office's transgressions but certainly somebody needed to learn a lesson about what is truly important in the world...
Sure a championship trophy would be nice but I work just 2 miles away from Staples Center, close enough that I will always root against them in the playoffs simply because their championship parade goes down Figueroa and makes it almost impossible for me to get to work on time. Two weeks after the Lakers won their league-best 19th championship trophy the fans were back to complaining about their team just like we do. Winning doesn't make the world a better place. I'd settle for having a team of players who are fun to watch and like playing together. It's taken me 16 years of losing to finally appreciate this but I don't think I actually care about a championship anymore. I enjoy watching sports because I like the genuine human drama of people falling and picking themselves up again, of overcoming their demons and finding moments of greatness, of accomplishing things together as a team. For instance, seeing Marvin Bagley have a great game tonight after the way he's been dragged through the mud (and I have to admit, I'm guilty of a fair amount of mud dragging myself) was more special to me than getting the win. It's obvious Fox is struggling with something right now but I hope he fights through it cause he's my guy. I don't know why. There's no statistical reason and I've never met the man. I liked the way he played at Kentucky, I was thrilled when the Kings drafted him, and I've enjoyed seeing his progress over the years. I don't feel like I need more of a reason than that.
It seems to me that most NBA fans reasonably expect that the franchise player on their respective team is the “go to” guy. It’s somebody who does most (if not all) of the following with regularity:
- Impacts the game on both ends of the floor
- Takes over games in stretches
- Demonstrates leadership
- Makes his teammates better
- Steps up under pressure
- Comes through with big plays in key moments
- Hits winning shots
- Makes the opposition worry when the ball is in his hands with the game on the line
Obviously stats count for something, but I think that the things I’ve listed capture the true essence of what defines what a “star” is in professional basketball.
Is Fox consistently THAT caliber of player - and therefore the one that should serve as the cornerstone of what we all hope one day will be a winning franchise?
Right now at least, there’s a lot of Kings fans who have some serious doubts about the wisdom of the organization tying its fortunes to De’Aaron.
Based upon D.F.’s inconsistent play this season, you can’t really say that they’re wrong.
- Impacts the game on both ends of the floor
- Takes over games in stretches
- Demonstrates leadership
- Makes his teammates better
- Steps up under pressure
- Comes through with big plays in key moments
- Hits winning shots
- Makes the opposition worry when the ball is in his hands with the game on the line
Obviously stats count for something, but I think that the things I’ve listed capture the true essence of what defines what a “star” is in professional basketball.
Is Fox consistently THAT caliber of player - and therefore the one that should serve as the cornerstone of what we all hope one day will be a winning franchise?
Right now at least, there’s a lot of Kings fans who have some serious doubts about the wisdom of the organization tying its fortunes to De’Aaron.
Based upon D.F.’s inconsistent play this season, you can’t really say that they’re wrong.
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One quibble - lots of go-to/franchise guys don't "impact the game on both ends of the floor." Specifically, many add little or nothing defensively.
Think of past MVPs - Harden, Westbrook, Curry, Dirk, Nash, Iverson, Barkley... think Luka. (I also think "winning shots" is waaaay overrated.) It's also why I think most of the guys on that list are somewhat overrated relative to the true both-ends guys - today, that's guys like Giannis, Durant, and Embiid.
Think of past MVPs - Harden, Westbrook, Curry, Dirk, Nash, Iverson, Barkley... think Luka. (I also think "winning shots" is waaaay overrated.) It's also why I think most of the guys on that list are somewhat overrated relative to the true both-ends guys - today, that's guys like Giannis, Durant, and Embiid.
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Don't care about winning? The Kings have beaten you into submission. The only reason to play this game is to win! This ain't jv league, your kid isn't on the team. Your talking like a coach mom who's bringing snacks at end of the game for goodness sake. Max means franchise player period. No one person can win all by themselves. Nobody is asking him too. We are asking him to step up when it matters. If he can't do that, he along with anyone else can and should be replaced. But I don't think he's doing terrible play wise. It's the attitude
Most of these games were at the end of the seasons if I'm not mistaken when smart teams were trying to lose, while Walton was gladly inflating his wins. The last 2 games of the bubble stand out in particular when we were totally out of it, yet Walton still ran his vets for near full run, not giving any of the young guys minutes.
Doesn't matter to my argument because those games are gonna happen anyway. I'm not making a point about Fox here, I'm disputing the idea that a Fox-less team would win only 12-17 games.
But in any case, bringing in the "but other teams weren't trying to win/were resting players" leads to a slippery slope of thinking - should we then not count wins with Fox against tanking/bad teams or when players were injured? Much more reliable to just take things as is. FWIW, the 11-10 in 2019-20 was largely in the early part of the season when was Fox was out. Fox missed 17 games in Nov-Dec and the team went 9-8.
But in any case, bringing in the "but other teams weren't trying to win/were resting players" leads to a slippery slope of thinking - should we then not count wins with Fox against tanking/bad teams or when players were injured? Much more reliable to just take things as is. FWIW, the 11-10 in 2019-20 was largely in the early part of the season when was Fox was out. Fox missed 17 games in Nov-Dec and the team went 9-8.
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That sample size literally means nothing to me. We would have been awful without Fox last season IMO and I’m glad he’s playing better these days so people can stop acting like he forgot how to play basketball. He’s far more valuable than some would like to believe and I’m glad some of those fans (not directing this at you) aren’t in the front office. Yikes!
Some posters advocated to trade Fox. Well, two guys in Kings organization are untouchable: Fox and Domas.
I think that some of the fans just forgot quickly that Kings were non-entity for the good 15+ years.
Now Kings play a very modern, evolving bball. Just be patient. Any team can trade away 2 best players on the roster anytime.
Sure, I will wait for the PO's this year. And I will wait more eagerly for the post-season in 2025.
If Kings should trade either of Fox or Domas - draft balls would be the only meaningful attraction.
I think that some of the fans just forgot quickly that Kings were non-entity for the good 15+ years.
Now Kings play a very modern, evolving bball. Just be patient. Any team can trade away 2 best players on the roster anytime.
Sure, I will wait for the PO's this year. And I will wait more eagerly for the post-season in 2025.
If Kings should trade either of Fox or Domas - draft balls would be the only meaningful attraction.
Oof, what a fun thread to read back on. Many were ready to trade him for a bag of chips just a little over 2 years ago and now Fox is pretty firmly cemented as a top 10/15 player.
Shows there needs to be a level of patience in the moment when watching these guys. Especially with Keegan, even though some are frustrated with his offense 20 games into his 2nd season.
Shows there needs to be a level of patience in the moment when watching these guys. Especially with Keegan, even though some are frustrated with his offense 20 games into his 2nd season.
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Yup, Kawhi Leonard didn't even average more than 12ppg until his 4th season! Keegan may need to conserve some of his energy for the offensive side of the ball again, but his defense is evolving in to a 2-way superstar worthy player, if his offense comes back in to form.
I'm a firm believer that Keegan can become that #2 behind Fox but it may take a year or two more.
I'm a firm believer that Keegan can become that #2 behind Fox but it may take a year or two more.
Either that or... nobody was looking to trade him for a bag of chips. The biggest debate point I recall was whether he or Tyrese should go. And FWIW, Tyrese can ALSO lay fair claim to top-10/15 status.
27/4/12 on 52/45/88 shooting line? On a rookie contract w/face-of-the-franchise charisma and personality?
Tyrese is doing *just* fine.
27/4/12 on 52/45/88 shooting line? On a rookie contract w/face-of-the-franchise charisma and personality?
Tyrese is doing *just* fine.