What do you want the lineup to be?
- Thread starter Vladizzle
- Start date
I think with the starting line up, the main issue with Hill right now is that they are trying to use him as the main #1 scorer and he is not. He is better being the 2nd or 3rd option. I think that is why he is struggling.
Seeing that Joeger needs to keep Hill in the starting lineup, just to keep his value up, incase of a trade near the deadline, I would move Hill over to shooting guard and start Fox at the point guard.
I would also bring Randolph off the bench and start Skal. Randolph would be most effective off the bench. He is just not capable of starting anymore and can give us good scoring against backups.
PF: Skal / Randolph
SF: Bogdan / Temple / JJ
C: WCS / KK
SG: Hill / Heild / VC
PG: Fox / Mason
Seeing that Joeger needs to keep Hill in the starting lineup, just to keep his value up, incase of a trade near the deadline, I would move Hill over to shooting guard and start Fox at the point guard.
I would also bring Randolph off the bench and start Skal. Randolph would be most effective off the bench. He is just not capable of starting anymore and can give us good scoring against backups.
PF: Skal / Randolph
SF: Bogdan / Temple / JJ
C: WCS / KK
SG: Hill / Heild / VC
PG: Fox / Mason
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Doug Christie mentioned on Ham's podcast that Hill's biggest problem right now is that he is the only play maker in the starting lineup.
I have a feeling that the plan was to start Bogie at the 2 (but the injury forced them to go with Hield). Putting Bogie in the starting lineup would give them another play maker and help open up more opportunities for Hill in the offence.
I have a feeling that the plan was to start Bogie at the 2 (but the injury forced them to go with Hield). Putting Bogie in the starting lineup would give them another play maker and help open up more opportunities for Hill in the offence.
Bogdan can't play SF. Pretty sure he'd get killed down there.
PG: Hill
SG: Fox
SF: Jackson
PF: Skal
C: WCS
with a rotation of
Temple
Hield
Bogdan
Zbo
Koufos
I still think Fox needs to operate next to another ball handler. He's not great at running a 1/2 court offense, so we'd get some playmaking from Hill. The 2nd unit doesn't have a traditional PG, but it would be slower pace and coach can run his ugly high-post offense with Koufos, or constantly feed Z-Bo in the low post.
PG: Hill
SG: Fox
SF: Jackson
PF: Skal
C: WCS
with a rotation of
Temple
Hield
Bogdan
Zbo
Koufos
I still think Fox needs to operate next to another ball handler. He's not great at running a 1/2 court offense, so we'd get some playmaking from Hill. The 2nd unit doesn't have a traditional PG, but it would be slower pace and coach can run his ugly high-post offense with Koufos, or constantly feed Z-Bo in the low post.
Our most effective big man pairing (that has sufficient minutes) right now is Labissiere/Koufos.
In fact, our most effective lineup that has played more than 10 minutes is Fox/Bogdanovic/Temple/Labissiere/Koufos (+15.5 Net Rtg). I think it would be wise to move Hill, Hield, & Cauley-Stein at the trade deadline for future assets (if Hield & Cauley-Stein continue to show more of the same), and then allow for a lineup of:
PG - Fox / Mason
SG - Bogdanovic / Richardson / Carter
SF - Temple / Jackson / Sampson
PF - Labissiere / Randolph / Cooley
C - Koufos / Papagiannis / Giles
In fact, our most effective lineup that has played more than 10 minutes is Fox/Bogdanovic/Temple/Labissiere/Koufos (+15.5 Net Rtg). I think it would be wise to move Hill, Hield, & Cauley-Stein at the trade deadline for future assets (if Hield & Cauley-Stein continue to show more of the same), and then allow for a lineup of:
PG - Fox / Mason
SG - Bogdanovic / Richardson / Carter
SF - Temple / Jackson / Sampson
PF - Labissiere / Randolph / Cooley
C - Koufos / Papagiannis / Giles
Interesting that you would try to trade Hield this early into his career. If he keeps playing like this, I don't think his value would be too high. Probably a late 1st from a playoff team looking for 3pt shooting, or in exchange for another young player. I haven't been impressed by Willie's play, but I'd only be comfortable trading him if Skal/PapaG makes a gigantic leap OR if Giles shows the he can actually play at a high level.
I personally don't really like net ratings because we're judging Skal/Koufos against bench players, while Randolph/WCS play against starters. I don't think Skal/Koufos would hold up very well against most starting front courts.
Kings need a SF. It's too early to talk trades yet, but I'd have no problem of throwing Buddy+WCS for Jaylen Brown. Not sure Boston would do this...but the Kings should.
I personally don't really like net ratings because we're judging Skal/Koufos against bench players, while Randolph/WCS play against starters. I don't think Skal/Koufos would hold up very well against most starting front courts.
Kings need a SF. It's too early to talk trades yet, but I'd have no problem of throwing Buddy+WCS for Jaylen Brown. Not sure Boston would do this...but the Kings should.
I don't tend to be a knee jerk reaction sort of poster, but I didn't like his game last year either. He seems like too much of a "me" player who doesn't have a good understanding of how to play winning ball. That doesn't mean he's not talented because he definitely is, but there are plenty of players in this league who can score, get there shot off, etc., but the players that score (and score efficiently) while making good decisions are the players I want.
Both Fox & Bogdanovic seem to fall into this sort of style and make good decisions more often than not. They play for each other and the team. I don't get the same impression from Hield which makes me lower on him than probably most around here. Plus he's almost 24 years old (same as Cauley-Stein, same as Beal). If a player doesn't seem to have a good understanding of how to play the game the right way by 24, I'm not as confident that they will be able to figure it out. Old habits die hard?
True. Net ratings have their drawbacks, and the factors you stated should be considered.
Both Fox & Bogdanovic seem to fall into this sort of style and make good decisions more often than not. They play for each other and the team. I don't get the same impression from Hield which makes me lower on him than probably most around here. Plus he's almost 24 years old (same as Cauley-Stein, same as Beal). If a player doesn't seem to have a good understanding of how to play the game the right way by 24, I'm not as confident that they will be able to figure it out. Old habits die hard?
True. Net ratings have their drawbacks, and the factors you stated should be considered.
Well obviously Buddy and WCS would have to go back to the level of play we saw them at last season and not this sack of whatever. If they go back to playing at a high level, why not?
You guys have 3 starting SFs on 1 team. Yeah you can play them in small lineups, but eventually one of them is relegated to the bench. WCS could probably turn into the rim protector we all know he can be under Stevens. Buddy would come off the bench with Rozier and Smart because he can't play defense. I wouldn't trade Brown if I had him on my team either. BUT he's someone I'd target if I were the Kings. It would be fair value IF Willie and Buddy went back to playing good again.
You guys have 3 starting SFs on 1 team. Yeah you can play them in small lineups, but eventually one of them is relegated to the bench. WCS could probably turn into the rim protector we all know he can be under Stevens. Buddy would come off the bench with Rozier and Smart because he can't play defense. I wouldn't trade Brown if I had him on my team either. BUT he's someone I'd target if I were the Kings. It would be fair value IF Willie and Buddy went back to playing good again.
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Brown is 21. If we already had Kyrie Irving and Markelle Fultz on the team, in addition to Buddy+Willie playing at the high level we saw last season, then yes. I'd trade Fox for them both.
Like I said.. Celtics have a unique situation where they have 3 starting SFs. Yeah Hayward is injured right now, but he'll be back next season with 3 years left on his max contract. Of course there's no rush to trade Brown right now when he's breaking out. It was just a random trade suggestion that isn't all that far fetched when you look at it from both perspectives. Like I said, trade would only be fair if Buddy was a 15ppg scorer shooting the 3ball at 40%, while Willie was an all-around scoring C that can rebound. This was the level they were at the end of last season.
Like I said.. Celtics have a unique situation where they have 3 starting SFs. Yeah Hayward is injured right now, but he'll be back next season with 3 years left on his max contract. Of course there's no rush to trade Brown right now when he's breaking out. It was just a random trade suggestion that isn't all that far fetched when you look at it from both perspectives. Like I said, trade would only be fair if Buddy was a 15ppg scorer shooting the 3ball at 40%, while Willie was an all-around scoring C that can rebound. This was the level they were at the end of last season.
The Celitcs don't think in categories like SF's anymore. It's now bigs, wings and ball handlers - that's it. The roster is built just like Stevens and Ainge want it to be built. They have a lot of interchangeable guys around 6'7 to 6'9, who all can shoot 3's and defend almost every position. They had 0 problems to play Hayward, Brown and Tatum all at the same time, when Hayward was healthy.
Both Willie and Buddy haven't lived up to the expectations so far. Willie is a big, who can't shoot, can't defend strong interior players and is not a good rebounder. Willie is not a player, the Celtics want on their roster (notice that every Celtics player can shoot 3's outside of Baynes and Smart, who are mainly on the roster for defense and fighting spirit). If there is no strong interior presence on the opponent Celtics like to go with 5 guys able to shoot (or 4 shooters+Smart).
Buddy is a shoot first guard, who is around 6'4 and not a good defender. Again - he doesn't fit, what the Celtics want to play alongside Irving, which are interchangeable + defenders.
Brown on the other hand is a prototypical NBA wing, a very decent defender at a young age, an improved shooter and a very athletic finisher. He is the type of player every team wants right now. The kid basically has more value, than any Kings player, including Fox, because he has already proven, that he belongs.
The only Celtics player, who might be available at the deadline is Marcus Smart, because he is expiring and still hasn't proven, that he can be consistent with his jumpshot. But even that is somewhat questionable, because Stevens still plays him 29 MPG and Smart still is an absolute stud on the defensive end and a very decent playmaker. There migth be a chance, because Ainge and Stevens might view Hayward as the secondary playmaker next to Irving and like Rozier more than Smart, because he is the more consistent shooter.
Well I'm a Smart fan and if Fox proves he can be a decent shooter from 3, this may be something the Kings should consider, but so far Fox 33% and only has 1.1 3PA/pg so I think we should better think twice, before trying to make a deal with the Celtics.
A defensive core of Fox, Smart and Temple sounds nice nonetheless.
Both Willie and Buddy haven't lived up to the expectations so far. Willie is a big, who can't shoot, can't defend strong interior players and is not a good rebounder. Willie is not a player, the Celtics want on their roster (notice that every Celtics player can shoot 3's outside of Baynes and Smart, who are mainly on the roster for defense and fighting spirit). If there is no strong interior presence on the opponent Celtics like to go with 5 guys able to shoot (or 4 shooters+Smart).
Buddy is a shoot first guard, who is around 6'4 and not a good defender. Again - he doesn't fit, what the Celtics want to play alongside Irving, which are interchangeable + defenders.
Brown on the other hand is a prototypical NBA wing, a very decent defender at a young age, an improved shooter and a very athletic finisher. He is the type of player every team wants right now. The kid basically has more value, than any Kings player, including Fox, because he has already proven, that he belongs.
The only Celtics player, who might be available at the deadline is Marcus Smart, because he is expiring and still hasn't proven, that he can be consistent with his jumpshot. But even that is somewhat questionable, because Stevens still plays him 29 MPG and Smart still is an absolute stud on the defensive end and a very decent playmaker. There migth be a chance, because Ainge and Stevens might view Hayward as the secondary playmaker next to Irving and like Rozier more than Smart, because he is the more consistent shooter.
Well I'm a Smart fan and if Fox proves he can be a decent shooter from 3, this may be something the Kings should consider, but so far Fox 33% and only has 1.1 3PA/pg so I think we should better think twice, before trying to make a deal with the Celtics.
A defensive core of Fox, Smart and Temple sounds nice nonetheless.
Brad doesn’t think of positions in that manner. He thinks in terms of ball handlers, wings, and Bigs.
On the Celtics:
Kyrie, Rosier: Ball Handler,
Tatum, Brown, Semi: Wings
Baynes, Morris, Theis: Big
Horford is the key because he can swing between Big and Wing. Marcus Smart plays great defense and swings between ball handler and wing but isnt pure at either. He potentially could be had but the Kings need shooters and Marcus isn’t that.
Willie would fit in as a big in Brad’s system but he’s not Danny’s type of player. Buddy doesn’t play D well enough to even crack Brads rotation. Semi plays because he can play defense 2-4
On the Celtics:
Kyrie, Rosier: Ball Handler,
Tatum, Brown, Semi: Wings
Baynes, Morris, Theis: Big
Horford is the key because he can swing between Big and Wing. Marcus Smart plays great defense and swings between ball handler and wing but isnt pure at either. He potentially could be had but the Kings need shooters and Marcus isn’t that.
Willie would fit in as a big in Brad’s system but he’s not Danny’s type of player. Buddy doesn’t play D well enough to even crack Brads rotation. Semi plays because he can play defense 2-4
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The Celtics are a mixture of luck, great moves by Ainge and a big market that players want to play in.
Kings have none of those other than hopefully some good moves by Vlade but that'll take a while to vet out.
If Garnett and Allen didn't decide to team up with Pierce years ago, their team would look a lot different than it does now.
Kings have none of those other than hopefully some good moves by Vlade but that'll take a while to vet out.
If Garnett and Allen didn't decide to team up with Pierce years ago, their team would look a lot different than it does now.
My view is the larger group of “kids” are a long ways from working with each other vs NBA defenses while a mix of the vets can help to illustrate how to deal with that added pressure along with 2-3 kids at a time to build confidence and score some points.
Seems that Fox-Bogs-Willie are the essential core that needs to mesh first. WIllie however, needs to become more a rebounder, rim protector while getting 15 pts and 10 reb as a min. Playing the high post may be making that difficult taking him away from the bucket as he is not a natural passing big like a Cuz, Vlade or CWeeb.
Then Skal, Jackson, Mason and/or Buddy in second group with 2 vets until Buddy gets his mojo back and Skal gets some consistency. This leaves Richardson short of minutes. But, Mason may slide up to #2 PG as he has his mojo and just needs minutes.
With so many new and rookie “kids” in a new system in the real NBA, some with targets on their chest, rebuilding is a 1-2 year process to determine the real roster and rotation then shoot for playoffs in year 3. Patience is a virtue if you are a true fan of a rebuilding team with such an apparent great core of players.
Seems that Fox-Bogs-Willie are the essential core that needs to mesh first. WIllie however, needs to become more a rebounder, rim protector while getting 15 pts and 10 reb as a min. Playing the high post may be making that difficult taking him away from the bucket as he is not a natural passing big like a Cuz, Vlade or CWeeb.
Then Skal, Jackson, Mason and/or Buddy in second group with 2 vets until Buddy gets his mojo back and Skal gets some consistency. This leaves Richardson short of minutes. But, Mason may slide up to #2 PG as he has his mojo and just needs minutes.
With so many new and rookie “kids” in a new system in the real NBA, some with targets on their chest, rebuilding is a 1-2 year process to determine the real roster and rotation then shoot for playoffs in year 3. Patience is a virtue if you are a true fan of a rebuilding team with such an apparent great core of players.
Coach J knows what he is doing. Most of his players at this stage don't. We have to trust his judgement.
I really like the idea of playing 10 or more guys every night. It gives everyone a chance. It keeps guys fresh so they can play hard. It allows the guy with the hot hand to stay on the floor longer. Everyone is getting experience except maybe Papa and Mason.
The Kings problems cannot be explained away by complaining about the coaching. Many coaches would be 1-10 or worse right now.
I really like the idea of playing 10 or more guys every night. It gives everyone a chance. It keeps guys fresh so they can play hard. It allows the guy with the hot hand to stay on the floor longer. Everyone is getting experience except maybe Papa and Mason.
The Kings problems cannot be explained away by complaining about the coaching. Many coaches would be 1-10 or worse right now.
I don't think anyone except for Fox and Temple and Bogdan have really been consistent enough for me to know who I want in the line-up. I want to see guys get better so I guess that means more from the young'uns. They have to show that they are getting better though. I would like to start seeing more of Mason and Malachi soon though, especially if Hill does not get it in gear.