What do you want the lineup to be?

#31
I understand the reason the starters were chosen, but that group needs a spark plug.

I'd replace Z-Bo and Jackson with Skal and Temple in the starting lineup and Buddy is on thin ice.
 
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#33
The Vets have been outplayed and so far in the early season look more to be hindering the flow of the offense than helping it. George Hill and Randolph are black holes. I thought Hill was not so much of a tweener scoring PG and more of a distributor. These 2 guys are NOT setting the example that we want the young guys to follow. Not seeing any chemistry between Hill and Hield or WCS. Hill at least plays some defense where Z Bo is getting torched night in and night out. Temple Carter and Koufus at least play team ball and its no accident that things run smoother when they are in versus watching Z-Bo and Hill compete to jack up more shots with Buddy Hield following the example THEY are setting.

Line up should be

Fox
Hield
Bogdan
Skal
WCS

Mason
Temple
Malachi/Jackson
Slamson/Carter
Koufus


Traded - Hill asap. terrible fit and not needed with Fox and Mason showing they are fine handling the ball. Not seeing anything in his game usefull to rub off on them.

Deep Deep Bench - Randolph, Papa

I'm very encouraged by our young guys. You can see the future with these guys. They are intense and hungry. Love how they get after it on defense and the energy they bring. The idea of the Vets is to at the least teach the "kids" how to bring it each night at tip off....crickets...If they don't have it in them any longer then help send them off to retirement. They want minuets then they need to outplay the "kids" and so far they have not. They can coach from the bench.

Yound guys should strap on Virtual Reality Headsets watching the Warriors and Spurs offenses for multiple hours every day. Burn the ball movement and movement without the ball into their minds.
 
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#34
The Vets have been outplayed and so far in the early season look more to be hindering the flow of the offense than helping it. George Hill and Randolph are black holes. I thought Hill was not so much of a tweener scoring PG and more of a distributor. These 2 guys are NOT setting the example that we want the young guys to follow. Not seeing any chemistry between Hill and Hield or WCS. Hill at least plays some defense where Z Bo is getting torched night in and night out. Temple Carter and Koufus at least play team ball and its no accident that things run smoother when they are in versus watching Z-Bo and Hill compete to jack up more shots with Buddy Hield following the example THEY are setting.

Line up should be

Fox
Hield
Bogdan
Skal
WCS

Mason
Temple
Malachi/Jackson
Slamson/Carter
Koufus


Traded - Hill asap. terrible fit and not needed with Fox and Mason showing they are fine handling the ball. Not seeing anything in his game usefull to rub off on them.

Deep Deep Bench - Randolph, Papa

I'm very encouraged by our young guys. You can see the future with these guys. They are intense and hungry. Love how they get after it on defense and the energy they bring. The idea of the Vets is to at the least teach the "kids" how to bring it each night at tip off....crickets...If they don't have it in them any longer then help send them off to retirement. They want minuets then they need to outplay the "kids" and so far they have not. They can coach from the bench.

Yound guys should strap on Virtual Reality Headsets watching the Warriors and Spurs offenses for multiple hours every day. Burn the ball movement and movement without the ball into their minds.
Hill can't be traded until December and I'd like to see more of Mason before I'm convinced Hill needs to be traded. He(Hill) is the type of guy that I don't think would be bothered by coming off the bench though. Fox definitely looks ready to me.

We've played 4 games thus far and a few little injuries that changed line-ups a bit and we're still in a rebuilding phase. I don't think we should rush to make any decisions about anyone. There is plenty of time to see how these guys learn to work together. The Spurs and the Warriors offenses are awesome to watch, but they have far more experience both in terms of NBA experience and time together.

The Kids have been pretty fun to watch though I'll give you that. Despite them playing well I don't think anyone is really playing together yet. I think the effort is there, but the players aren't used to each other yet and the coaching staff is still figuring guys out as well.
 
#35
I’m wondering how much Hill’s trade value will come into consideration into if he’s moved to the bench. If they plan on getting good value for him that demotion might be a hit on the asset.. I just know Fox should be starting
 
#36
I respect you quite a bit Blob, but I think that is an oversimplification of Joerger's approach. You make it sound like he is getting a commission for every win over 20 and will sacrifice the good of the team to get those wins (by wearing out the vets). I don't think it was true then and I don't think it's true now.

You can certainly disagree but I believe Matt Barnes was a role model that Dave was trotting out there. I think Barnes was a goon who worked his ass off, and Dave wanted his players to imitate his values. I heard Dave talk about "give the guy a hard shot in the ribs when he goes after the offensive board, and next time he'll decide to get back on defense instead". Matt was one of the few guys who brought that gritty intensity to the floor every minute. I did not mind the time Matt Barnes spent on the floor last year - I almost bought a #22 jersey. But I respect the opinion of people who don't like him.

Hard to follow how playing Barnes too much contributed to Boogie's exile tho - this is an argument I don't follow. I think Boogie and Barnes braided each other's hair and got in bar fights together... as bro as bro can be.

I guess I think it is way early to second guess his lineups and rotations... particularly since Bogdan hasn't been available, we had a back-to-back, and Malachi could not hit water if he fell out of a boat so far. I want to see where we are after 10 games I guess.
I think you make some fair points but what does grittiness matter if you can't play?

Barnes had a 50% TS and a 17% turnover rate. He couldn't score and he couldn't pass. He took a lot of chances defensively and maybe 1 out of 5 paid off. The other chances resulted in taking himself out of the play and leaving teammates at a disadvantage. I like grit as much as the next guy (gal) (fan) but it has to come in the context of a skillset that enables the player to be a positive contributor more often than not.

I was implying Barnes enabled Boogie's behavior. He was suppose to be a calming influence. I am not going to recount history but let's just recall after the discussion of the max extension there was incident with the Warriors game and flipping the bird and exchange of words with the elderly Bee reporter. His ongoing behavioral issues did not make the front office feel too generous about shelling out $200 million. Ultimately I think you will agree that Boogie is responsible for his own behavior but I think Barnes contributed to his perception that he was constantly victimized a misunderstood, a pseudo martyr in baggy shorts. Barnes liked to play the victim role, being perceived unfairly. Being around Boogie fueled this unhealthy delusion, borderline paranoid anytime he sees someone in black and white striped shirt.

Now fast forward to today: Z-Boing has grit. But he can't play anymore. Joerger and this front office rewarded him with a contract based on the 31 year old Z-Boing not present version who is a lumbering slug after never being an elite athlete to begin with. This is the judgement we are suppose to defer and trust to as fans? I don't think so. They are capable of getting it right and wrong as reflective of us all and human nature! There was an extreme lack of vision IMO to pair a "slug" with "thoroughbreds". I was on a high post-draft with the Kings getting my franchise player Fox so I was not critical at the time of the signing. I liked the idea of easing Skal into starter minutes and still do....

But upon reflection after the high of the draft wore off, the writing was on the wall for Z-Bo. He was a desperate grab with rear view vision instead of forward vision. Z-Boing is Barnes Part II only worse due to the size of the contract. There were better options if we were patient and opportunistic.

And one last thing if you are a defending Matt Barnes for his play last year, then are you suggesting that the other 29 teams are inaccurate in their implicit assessment of him as a player? If his grit is so valuable in the context you described why is he out of the league? The answer to this is simple. There has to be a degree of efficiency on the offensive end relative to what you offer on defensive end. At this point in his career, JUST LIKE Z-BOING, Barnes is a negative offensive player AND a negative defensive player...

And unlike math the product of two negatives do NOT make a positive! ;)
 
#37
I think you make some fair points but what does grittiness matter if you can't play?

Barnes had a 50% TS and a 17% turnover rate. He couldn't score and he couldn't pass. He took a lot of chances defensively and maybe 1 out of 5 paid off. The other chances resulted in taking himself out of the play and leaving teammates at a disadvantage. I like grit as much as the next guy (gal) (fan) but it has to come in the context of a skillset that enables the player to be a positive contributor more often than not.

I was implying Barnes enabled Boogie's behavior. He was suppose to be a calming influence. I am not going to recount history but let's just recall after the discussion of the max extension there was incident with the Warriors game and flipping the bird and exchange of words with the elderly Bee reporter. His ongoing behavioral issues did not make the front office feel too generous about shelling out $200 million. Ultimately I think you will agree that Boogie is responsible for his own behavior but I think Barnes contributed to his perception that he was constantly victimized a misunderstood, a pseudo martyr in baggy shorts. Barnes liked to play the victim role, being perceived unfairly. Being around Boogie fueled this unhealthy delusion, borderline paranoid anytime he sees someone in black and white striped shirt.

Now fast forward to today: Z-Boing has grit. But he can't play anymore. Joerger and this front office rewarded him with a contract based on the 31 year old Z-Boing not present version who is a lumbering slug after never being an elite athlete to begin with. This is the judgement we are suppose to defer and trust to as fans? I don't think so. They are capable of getting it right and wrong as reflective of us all and human nature! There was an extreme lack of vision IMO to pair a "slug" with "thoroughbreds". I was on a high post-draft with the Kings getting my franchise player Fox so I was not critical at the time of the signing. I liked the idea of easing Skal into starter minutes and still do....

But upon reflection after the high of the draft wore off, the writing was on the wall for Z-Bo. He was a desperate grab with rear view vision instead of forward vision. Z-Boing is Barnes Part II only worse due to the size of the contract. There were better options if we were patient and opportunistic.

And one last thing if you are a defending Matt Barnes for his play last year, then are you suggesting that the other 29 teams are inaccurate in their implicit assessment of him as a player? If his grit is so valuable in the context you described why is he out of the league? The answer to this is simple. There has to be a degree of efficiency on the offensive end relative to what you offer on defensive end. At this point in his career, JUST LIKE Z-BOING, Barnes is a negative offensive player AND a negative defensive player...

And unlike math the product of two negatives do NOT make a positive! ;)
I think ZBo is looking like a bad signing right now. No question. If he is playing like this and starting in a week I will second-guess DJ.

I think DJ has no problem with bad-boy antics and its simply a matter of degree... Barnes and Cuz took it too far/got caught. But I think Boogie has plenty of 'bad boy' in him already... he was kicking chairs and cussing refs before Barnes and after Barnes.

And, as a side note on Boogie.. I don't mind the bad boy. I didn't mind Artest. BUT... Boogie let himself SULK. He would SULK and take himself out of games. THAT is why I turned off to him, finally... late in his career here. And that wasn't Matt goading him on to pout and sulk and cry.

I accepted the talent/Grit trade off with Barnes as I think did Joerger. It's a process and I think DJ is thinking "I can get guys who shoot baskets later... right now I need to establish a grit culture FIRST and FOREMOST". He didn't tell me that over beers... it is just my guess at his mindset.

I reiterate: I can agree to disagree with any Barnes detractor. I would not support signing him now. But I didn't begrudge his minutes last year.
 
#38
I think you make some fair points but what does grittiness matter if you can't play?

Barnes had a 50% TS and a 17% turnover rate. He couldn't score and he couldn't pass. He took a lot of chances defensively and maybe 1 out of 5 paid off. The other chances resulted in taking himself out of the play and leaving teammates at a disadvantage. I like grit as much as the next guy (gal) (fan) but it has to come in the context of a skillset that enables the player to be a positive contributor more often than not.

I was implying Barnes enabled Boogie's behavior. He was suppose to be a calming influence. I am not going to recount history but let's just recall after the discussion of the max extension there was incident with the Warriors game and flipping the bird and exchange of words with the elderly Bee reporter. His ongoing behavioral issues did not make the front office feel too generous about shelling out $200 million. Ultimately I think you will agree that Boogie is responsible for his own behavior but I think Barnes contributed to his perception that he was constantly victimized a misunderstood, a pseudo martyr in baggy shorts. Barnes liked to play the victim role, being perceived unfairly. Being around Boogie fueled this unhealthy delusion, borderline paranoid anytime he sees someone in black and white striped shirt.

Now fast forward to today: Z-Boing has grit. But he can't play anymore. Joerger and this front office rewarded him with a contract based on the 31 year old Z-Boing not present version who is a lumbering slug after never being an elite athlete to begin with. This is the judgement we are suppose to defer and trust to as fans? I don't think so. They are capable of getting it right and wrong as reflective of us all and human nature! There was an extreme lack of vision IMO to pair a "slug" with "thoroughbreds". I was on a high post-draft with the Kings getting my franchise player Fox so I was not critical at the time of the signing. I liked the idea of easing Skal into starter minutes and still do....

But upon reflection after the high of the draft wore off, the writing was on the wall for Z-Bo. He was a desperate grab with rear view vision instead of forward vision. Z-Boing is Barnes Part II only worse due to the size of the contract. There were better options if we were patient and opportunistic.

And one last thing if you are a defending Matt Barnes for his play last year, then are you suggesting that the other 29 teams are inaccurate in their implicit assessment of him as a player? If his grit is so valuable in the context you described why is he out of the league? The answer to this is simple. There has to be a degree of efficiency on the offensive end relative to what you offer on defensive end. At this point in his career, JUST LIKE Z-BOING, Barnes is a negative offensive player AND a negative defensive player...

And unlike math the product of two negatives do NOT make a positive! ;)
Z-boing??o_O
 
#39
After sleeping on last night's fugly game. I want to settle on my lineup.

Hill/Fox/Mason
Fox/Bogdan/Hield
Temple/VC/JJ/Hield
Skal/ZBo/VC/Temple
WCS/Koufos

I'd like to see some of those lineups interchange where we see Hill come out early, Bogdan in for 2 spot and move Fox down to PG. Fox is already looking like our leader. Also, Mason seems solid at least, needs some PT. Kind of depressing to see him in the doghouse so early. Feel for the kid.

I think Temple should be our permanent starting SF, and I'm not just saying that because last night.

My main problem with Zbo is his defense really. He looks given up on that end and that's sort of what happens with age for bigs.

I know fans always think they know more than the coach, but goodness do Dave's rotations and decisions boggle my mind...like play the most talented or the smartest players first, he does neither.
 
#41
As ugly as last nights game was I do want to say WCS is averaging 11 PPG 10 RPG 1.3 BPG on 56% shooting.

This is the kind of incremental progress I was looking for. It is something to build upon....

And in 86 minutes this season he only has one turnover!

That's a good number with the propensity for big men to drag their pivot foot (TO) or barrel over the defender for an offensive foul (TO).

Also being that Willie is not the best running the high post offense, he at least has not been carelessly throwing entry passes or cross court to be intercepted.

On the negative he is still looking for his first steal of the season. He needs to use his quickness to jump the passing lanes.
I think the WCS defense in the paint has been sucky, at best. He just STANDS UPRIGHT in the paint, like he's looking for a bird in the stands. (Contrast Skal who is in a crouched defensive position looking intently at the play). He's not in a defensive crouch, he's not ready for the next play, he's not freaking motivated. He needs to fly to the freaking ball, get deflections, get blocks, dive on the floor, get dirty, get physical, and get ugly. Instead, he's playing pretty boy prancing around waiting for his next offensive opportunity. He really needs some G league competition for his minutes, some guy who is hungry as hell and willing to sacrifice his body to do the dirty work necessary to win.
 
#44
I'm wondering if Randolph knew what he was getting himself into here. With the kind of shape he came into this year in it makes me think he didn't expect to be THE focal point of the offense and to be playing as many minutes as he has.
 
#45
The Vets have been outplayed and so far in the early season look more to be hindering the flow of the offense than helping it. George Hill and Randolph are black holes. I thought Hill was not so much of a tweener scoring PG and more of a distributor. These 2 guys are NOT setting the example that we want the young guys to follow. Not seeing any chemistry between Hill and Hield or WCS. Hill at least plays some defense where Z Bo is getting torched night in and night out. Temple Carter and Koufus at least play team ball and its no accident that things run smoother when they are in versus watching Z-Bo and Hill compete to jack up more shots with Buddy Hield following the example THEY are setting.

Line up should be

Fox
Hield
Bogdan
Skal
WCS

Mason
Temple
Malachi/Jackson
Slamson/Carter
Koufus


Traded - Hill asap. terrible fit and not needed with Fox and Mason showing they are fine handling the ball. Not seeing anything in his game usefull to rub off on them.

Deep Deep Bench - Randolph, Papa

I'm very encouraged by our young guys. You can see the future with these guys. They are intense and hungry. Love how they get after it on defense and the energy they bring. The idea of the Vets is to at the least teach the "kids" how to bring it each night at tip off....crickets...If they don't have it in them any longer then help send them off to retirement. They want minuets then they need to outplay the "kids" and so far they have not. They can coach from the bench.

Yound guys should strap on Virtual Reality Headsets watching the Warriors and Spurs offenses for multiple hours every day. Burn the ball movement and movement without the ball into their minds.
I think you are spot-on but perhaps too harsh on Hill too soon. There's still a learning curve there with new teammates and he was responsible for our only win. I expected Hill to be an upgrade defensively over Collision and as effective offensively. Now I am not so sure because Hill seems more prone to disappear offensively whereas DC had that burst of speed that freed him up to get clean looks more often. We are still dealing with a small sample size and I am still of the sentiment Hill can be a net positive on this team.

The others vets - Carter, Z-Boing, Koufos - are NOT going to be instrumental to showing our young guys how to play if they are unable to play. I think this was the plan and this plan is looking rather shaky, except Temple, who is playing about as well as he has in his career. Respect is earned. It is not granted. I think there is a respect granted to Vince because the guy is an awesome person -- articulate, positive, professional, lean and ripped at age 41 --- I am cool with VC even if he shoots 25% FGs and resigned to the bench. His signing will pay off even if he does not contribute on floor.

It is Z-Boing and Koufos that are the flailing entities, conspicuous plodders, dubious do-nothings, just bidding time until they can be replaced. It is like, what is the point?

I have watched NBA basketball long enough (long long long time!) and the ONLY sport I invest my time in to know there are certain player that at their very best can help you to LOSE respectably. Think about that. This is what I see with Koufos and Z-Boing. When they bring their very best effort, these guys will help you LOSE respectably. So if this is what you aspire to, ie. respectable losses, then cheer for them!

I don't like to root for players that will help lead the team to a respectable loss. I want them OFF the floor. That is why I harp vociferously on perceived "losers" like Jason Thompson, Marco B, Jason Hart, Aaron Affalo, Matt Barnes, Zach Randolph before majority of fans catch on to the degree of their incompetence. It is not personal, but Kings fans have suffered long enough. Get the riffraff off the floor and onto the bench! Or better yet don't acquire them in the first place.

I am in every Kings players corner 100% until the negatives outweigh the positives. It is simple as that. I would just like to see our primary decision maker not be prone to GIFTNG a 36 year old doobie aficionado $24 million to waddle up and down the floor like a bloated hippo! Make NO mistake Z-Bo hit the lottery this off-season and he has stupidity of our front office / coach to thank for glorious windfall. The quality of herb he will be sampling should be transcendental.

He may not be able to make half his shots or guard a fire hydrant, but he should be able to answer the meaning of existence....maybe he will share his profound wisdom with the masses and earn back a portion of his bloviated salary. Lord knows he will not be earning his payday with the quality of his play.
 
#46
Fox is clearly ready to get the start he's just a gamer. As for the starters its a wash right now but I like what I'm seeing in Justin, Skal and WCS. Temple has been nothing short of stellar and if he's not a starter I'm not sure who else has earned it.
 
#47
I'm wondering if Randolph knew what he was getting himself into here. With the kind of shape he came into this year in it makes me think he didn't expect to be THE focal point of the offense and to be playing as many minutes as he has.
The guy got arrested with enough herb to make the state of New Hampshire otherworldly. I'd be surprised if he knows what team he is playing for, let alone how many minutes he would be playing with said team. Sack of tomatoes? He probably thinks he is still on the Grizzlies until he looks down at his jersey in the locker room. I mean, c'mon, am I the ONLY fan who sees the utter joke of this guy?!! It is NOT going to get better, my fellow Kings fans, it is only going to get more futile. When a guy is a pathetic joke, in terms of his handling his assigned responsibilities, should we just ignore it or call it out for what it is???? I deal in reality not fantasy. Is a fat 36 year old stoner going to experience at career renaissance after guaranteeing himself 24 million and coming off worst season in his career? Sorry thats not a bet I want to make.

With the help of his agent who pulled an historic fast one, Z-Boing came, saw and conquered and now it is time to enjoy the herbal fruits of his labor and keep the primo bud coming between game days post-game and pre-game and off-days. This is someone you want to root for? NO THANKS. I want to root for potential winners (like Boggy, Buddy and Fox) not over-the-hill bums.
 
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VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
#48
I'm not sure any lineup is going to be effective come Thursday, but I'm ready to see this:

PG - Fox
SG - Bogs
SF - Temple
PF - Skal
C - WCS

Watching Z-Bo out there just doesn't do anything for me, especially at the beginning of the game. I want to see us start with ENERGY.
 
#49
I'm not sure any lineup is going to be effective come Thursday, but I'm ready to see this:

PG - Fox
SG - Bogs
SF - Temple
PF - Skal
C - WCS

Watching Z-Bo out there just doesn't do anything for me, especially at the beginning of the game. I want to see us start with ENERGY.
From early results that's the line up I would like to see. Lots of guys that can set up teammates.
 
#50
I'm not sure any lineup is going to be effective come Thursday, but I'm ready to see this:

PG - Fox
SG - Bogs
SF - Temple
PF - Skal
C - WCS

Watching Z-Bo out there just doesn't do anything for me, especially at the beginning of the game. I want to see us start with ENERGY.
I agree. I didn't want to "demote" Hill based on the first two games... but maybe he'll go for it and be great off the bench. This does look like the best way to go - first unit.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#51
slow-bo has no business starting for this team and I am hoping that Joerger is doing this so the young guns can earn their keep rather than just being handed a starting spot. I don't see slow-bo starting for much longer anyway, Joerger adapts.
 
#52
I'm not sure any lineup is going to be effective come Thursday, but I'm ready to see this:

PG - Fox
SG - Bogs
SF - Temple
PF - Skal
C - WCS

Watching Z-Bo out there just doesn't do anything for me, especially at the beginning of the game. I want to see us start with ENERGY.
Agree, this is their best lineup as of now in the very early season....Mason and Richardson need more minutes too. Hield may be ready at some point to start - but I wonder if Joerger makes changes for some time.
 
#54
Wow people turned on Zbo quick. Just a few days ago, he was the long awaited veteran mentor for our young bigs, able to teach them toughness and the art of the grit&grind. Now he is an overweight pothead with an unimaginative nickname?
Btw. Jamychal Green is signed for 2 years at 27 millions. Still seems to me like the more reasonable decision. I also still want Vlade to bring in KG to work with Skal, Willie and Harry, like he did with Giannis and Maker.
 
#55
I'm not sure any lineup is going to be effective come Thursday, but I'm ready to see this:

PG - Fox
SG - Bogs
SF - Temple
PF - Skal
C - WCS

Watching Z-Bo out there just doesn't do anything for me, especially at the beginning of the game. I want to see us start with ENERGY.
I start:
Hill
Fox
Bogs
Skal
WCS

And substitute sooner where needed for better defense. When playing Cleveland, Milwaukee, Oakland etc. I might start Sampson at SF as I think he is the only guy on the Kings to match up with the Big SF's around the association. When he gets in foul trouble I bring in Temple, then Jackson, then VC. Any player that is going off like Mike James did in Phoenix gets a defender that matches up physically. In Phoenix I would have put Frank Mason III on the the small Suns PG's.

For me it is all about who can defend who as I still think that end of the court decides games even in this NBA 3.0 era.
 
#56
The only reason to start Hill is out of respect for his salary or that his recent play is way beneath him. Hopefully it's the latter, but good LORD the starters from last game looked like garden gnomes in time lapse photography. The worst part was when they came back they acted the same way!! Hill is mostly responsible for this. If this happens one more time, BENCH HIM.
Bogie (I still feel weird about this nickname b/c it looks like Boogie but w/e) and Fox showed chemistry and Temple is a good SF. They should all start. I think Skal is gonna have his bad moments at PF but start him anyways.
I think the biggest Q is can we put WCS and Skal together on the floor? That's not great BBIQ.
 
#58
I don't think Joerger is coaching to win this year. He's coaching to develop. Coaching to win in place of coaching to develop could possibly stunt the rebuild process for a few cheap wins that wont mean anything anyway since the team is not good enough to make the playoffs, regardless of how they're coached.
 
#60
Wow people turned on Zbo quick. Just a few days ago, he was the long awaited veteran mentor for our young bigs, able to teach them toughness and the art of the grit&grind. Now he is an overweight pothead with an unimaginative nickname?
Btw. Jamychal Green is signed for 2 years at 27 millions. Still seems to me like the more reasonable decision. I also still want Vlade to bring in KG to work with Skal, Willie and Harry, like he did with Giannis and Maker.
He would have been amazing on this team the Grizzlies got a absolute steal with that deal.