What do you want the lineup to be?

#1
After a couple games..what do you want to see for on the floor for now?

Mine:

Fox/Mason/Hill
Hill/Hield/Bogdan
Temple/VC/JJ
Skal/Zbo/VC
WCS/KK
 
#2
I'd rather see Malachi than JJ. I think JJ has the type of game that will flourish in a couple years when we are more experienced and have proven offense. Malachi's ability to create his own shot is something we could really use and, quite frankly, I've always thought his game looks much more fluid than Buddy's. Obviously Buddy has proven what he can do and Malachi hasn't, he could be all flash no substance, but just based off the eye test I think his ceiling is severely underrated.
 
#3
I may be in the minority but I have been fine with Joerger'rotations in the first two games. We'll see what happens in the third game.

Hill/Fox/Mason
Heild/Bogs/Richardson
Jackson / Temple / Carter
Zbo/Skal
WCS/koufas/PapaG
A good mix of vets with youth
 
#6
I may be in the minority but I have been fine with Joerger'rotations in the first two games. We'll see what happens in the third game.

Hill/Fox/Mason
Heild/Bogs/Richardson
Jackson / Temple / Carter
Zbo/Skal
WCS/koufas/PapaG
A good mix of vets with youth
His substitution patterns are just whacky though. He'll play someone 12 minutes straight then bring them back in the last 2 minutes of the next quarter. I'm hoping he starts to dial that in a bit because the offense is all over the map partly due to that I'd bet.
 
#7
With the short pre-season I think Coach is still feeling things out and trying to get a handle on what exactly guys can do and how they work with one another. With that in mind I bet he leans on the vets more at the start of the season and as it wears on the young guys get more and more run. I think VC's minutes will get less and less as the year rolls on and we see more of Bogdan and Malachi. Mason might have some trouble getting minutes if only because of the talent ahead of him.

It's going to be hard to be patient and sit and wait for guys to earn more minutes as I want to see them all play now. We have so many young guys though that someone is going to be getting minutes.
 
#9
Joerger needs to understand that if the Kings are going to have these hideous droughts on offense, he needs to be substituting quickly and liberally. Player combinations need to be tried through and through. The starting unit was absolutely inert against the Nuggets in the 3rd quarter. It shouldn't take half a quarter to figure that out - after the 4th straight miss, bring in fresh legs. Take advantage of the full personnel earlier. I thought 3rd string players looked better in the 4th sans Fox than the first 7-8. Hill looked gassed. Hoping Bogdan can be the shot of accurate shooting they desperately need.
 
#10
Im not so down on buddy. He looks stronger yo me and a little faster quicker powerful. Also his handle looks a good amount improved. Not above average for a starting 2 guard level yet, but getting there. Also, he has had a few good passes that ive found encouraging. I think he will be fine. Just struggling with shooting. Think he will be fine.
 
#11
Fox is the teams best player now..

Bogdan getting a look at SF though is interesting to me, as Hield/Bogdan could be the teams best wing assets going forward and would help the movement on that first unit. Joerger said the difference in SG/SF interchangeability isn’t that much anymore, so we will see if it’s something he looks at

I’d like Skal starting too, but I guess we have to separate what’s best for the team now/future. The way Skal has looked though, I’d already give the nod to him over Zach
 
#12
As ugly as last nights game was I do want to say WCS is averaging 11 PPG 10 RPG 1.3 BPG on 56% shooting.

This is the kind of incremental progress I was looking for. It is something to build upon....

And in 86 minutes this season he only has one turnover!

That's a good number with the propensity for big men to drag their pivot foot (TO) or barrel over the defender for an offensive foul (TO).

Also being that Willie is not the best running the high post offense, he at least has not been carelessly throwing entry passes or cross court to be intercepted.

On the negative he is still looking for his first steal of the season. He needs to use his quickness to jump the passing lanes.
 
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#13
Fox is the teams best player now..

Bogdan getting a look at SF though is interesting to me, as Hield/Bogdan could be the teams best wing assets going forward and would help the movement on that first unit. Joerger said the difference in SG/SF interchangeability isn’t that much anymore, so we will see if it’s something he looks at

I’d like Skal starting too, but I guess we have to separate what’s best for the team now/future. The way Skal has looked though, I’d already give the nod to him over Zach
Z-Boing was a bad signing. He was absolutely destroyed last night by Faried. It was embarrassing.

Let's see how many games it takes him to score more points than shots taking.

Game 1: 13 points on 15 shots
Game 2: 11 points on 13 shots

Z-Boing plays at one speed and everybody else on the team plays at another speed.

How is it conducive to our team chemistry to have one player play at speed incompatible with the way everyone else plays? Answer: It is not.

In order for him to NOT to be a net negative most every game he has to be an efficient scorer to compensate for his defense and rebounding immobility. This is obvious.

Well, unless he starts making 40% of his 3s and starts making his face-up jumper and experiences a renaissance at 36 with his magical backpack supply, I don't see it happening

New Starters
Fox
Hield
Boggy
Skal
Willie
New Bench
Hill
Mason
Temple
Jackson
Papa G

I was going to put Vince Carter as the back-up PF, but I don't see a lot of upside there, so may as well go small ball in the second unit, until Harry Giles makes his epic debut in January. :)
 
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#15
His substitution patterns are just whacky though. He'll play someone 12 minutes straight then bring them back in the last 2 minutes of the next quarter. I'm hoping he starts to dial that in a bit because the offense is all over the map partly due to that I'd bet.
He's done this every game since being a head coach. He stubbornly keeps it the same no matter what. Even if they are getting killed the earliest you'll see a change is 6 minute marker.
 
#16
New Starters
Fox
Hield
Boggy
Skal
Willie
New Bench
Hill
Mason
Temple
Jackson
Papa G

I was going to put Vince Carter as the back-up PF, but I don't see a lot of upside there, so may as well go small ball in the second unit, until Harry Giles makes his epic debut in January. :)
This except... I like KK for backup C and do not trust Paps yet. Maybe that will change but I think Kosta is miles better.

Unless we pull some rabbit out of a hat in a trade or Giles comes through... we are just dead meat down low.. dead meat. But fast and fun to watch.
 
#17
I honestly want Joerger’s best judgement. I am happy with his starters and his rotations.
I think Dave Joerger is Vlade's best asset right now - I'm ride or die with Dave. I've been uneasy with the HC seat since Adelman left, until now (Karl never got a fair chance).

The good news for me though, based on this board... is that the Kings have going away the smartest fans in the NBA since such a high percentage of them are so much smarter than Dave about everything from rotations to player development. It is absolutely uncanny how the greatest minds in NBA have all migrated to Sacramento to be fans. awesome.
 
#18
I'm just focusing on a game at a time. Next is Phoenix. I can't see Zach or Koufas having major roles in this game, unless it's a close game and it slows down in the last 5 minutes or so. Skal, Buddy, WCS, Fox, Hill, Jackson, Mason and hopefully Bogs have got to get a lot of minutes in this game and they have to produce. Maybe Carter can find within himself about 15 minutes where he can go at the pace required.
 
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#19
Until Bogdan gets a few games under his belt, and we see how he fits, I couldn't say. We have a long journey ahead before we know what we have to work with.
 
#20
I honestly want Joerger’s best judgement. I am happy with his starters and his rotations.
His "best judgment" has results in 18.5 points scored in opening quarter last two games and most anemic offense I have seen since before the Boogie trade. So you could say his best judgement has got us off to woeful starts two games in a row against very mediocre competition. (The Mavs with their injuries are the worst team in the league, and the Nuggets played mostly terrible in the first half).

We caught the Rockets on a back-to-back and came out with nice energy in the home opener but since then the starting lineup has about as futile as you can get (offensively) . If Joerger had this starting lineup in mind before the season, he should have given them some reps together. He didn't. I don't think they played anytime together. Joerger didn't take the pre-season serious enough. He didn't have these guys ready as they could have been with a more pragmatic approach.

Now what we know based on history Joerger likes to promote based on merit. So the notion that Boggy will replace Jackson, while appealing to me, is unlikely. Boggy will have to earn the start with at least 5-10 games of competency. Jackson has not set a high bar, but Boggy still has to clear it with playmaking and shot making. Defensively I think he will be good.

Based on the merit system, the most likely line-up change is Fox being inserted as a starter. Jackson would be the logical guy to sit but then that would push Hill or Hield down to SF and I do not think the coach wants to ask either of these guys to defend there. Now way will Joerger send Hill to the bench. You cannot demote the guy who won you your only game and objectively one of your best players. And I don't think he wants to sit Buddy either. We need him as a primary scorer.

So the next logical move is Skal over Z-Boing. Unfortunately I don't see this happening just yet. Joerger will "ride or die" with his vets and will give Z-Boing 10-20 games to get into shape and "find his rhythm". By then our record could be 4-16. So the logical move is to insert De'Aaron as a starter but practically it is more challenging than it seems. If Buddy has more 1-10 FG games then perhaps you use him as a 6th man. Again I think Joerger will be reluctant to do this.

So the status quo re: starters is likely to remain in effect for a while longer based on the coaching style and present options available to him.
 
#22
I think Dave Joerger is Vlade's best asset right now - I'm ride or die with Dave. I've been uneasy with the HC seat since Adelman left, until now (Karl never got a fair chance).

The good news for me though, based on this board... is that the Kings have going away the smartest fans in the NBA since such a high percentage of them are so much smarter than Dave about everything from rotations to player development. It is absolutely uncanny how the greatest minds in NBA have all migrated to Sacramento to be fans. awesome.
Ha. Funny but I will push back on this opinion slightly.

The issue is NOT intelligence, per se. Joerger is a smart guy.

(I am smarter than him but that is besides the point. ;))

The issue is bias, distrusting young guys and placing an excess trust in the reputation of vets whose better days have come and gone .

You can be intelligent but blind to the bias you hold that predicate decisions with regards to rotation and playing time.

I ask you or anyone: Who in retrospect wants to argue that Matt Barnes did NOT play too many minutes last season???

Joerger trotted out this washed up bum 25 MPG before he was waived!

It was an incredulous amount of misplaced trust in a guy who contributed mightily to another wasted season (and arguably the exile of Boogie).

Barnes did NOT deserve to be on the floor as much as he was, if at all.

The same could be said about Affalo and I am afraid the same will also be said about Carter and Z-Boing.

Barnes is a player out of the league because 29 other GMs know he can't play.

(He had the cup of coffee with Warriors, but was inconsequential in playoffs and was added only due to injury and fortuitous timing).

Barnes would throw the ball all over the place. He was an unconscious gunner (38% FGs) and his body did not allow him to do anything defensively.

And yet he was on the floor way more than he should have been.

(The superior player, Omri, was inexplicably sent to Joerger's dog house and never got out.)

Is this the coach with unassailable judgement??? I don't think so.

But it is not that the coach lacks intelligence...

It is that he has a bias towards the past when the "glory days" are a distant memory.
 
#23
Joerger had a rep in Memphis for going ride or die with his experiences players, I just hope that when it's clearly time to kick development into high gear he shortens that rotation with a tilt towards the young guys and Vlade looks to move some of these "value" signings to teams that can use them.

That said I think Joerger testing the waters seeing if the vets can pull in some wins is OK. Just know when enough is enough. Last year I think he waited a bit too long and it might have cost someone like Buddy a legit shot at ROY.
 
#24
Ha. Funny but I will push back on this opinion slightly.

The issue is NOT intelligence, per se. Joerger is a smart guy.

(I am smarter than him but that is besides the point. ;))

The issue is bias, distrusting young guys and placing an excess trust in the reputation of vets whose better days have come and gone .

You can be intelligent but blind to the bias you hold that predicate decisions with regards to rotation and playing time.

I ask you or anyone: Who in retrospect wants to argue that Matt Barnes did NOT play too many minutes last season???

Joerger trotted out this washed up bum 25 MPG before he was waived!

It was an incredulous amount of misplaced trust in a guy who contributed mightily to another wasted season (and arguably the exile of Boogie).

Barnes did NOT deserve to be on the floor as much as he was, if at all.

The same could be said about Affalo and I am afraid the same will also be said about Carter and Z-Boing.

Barnes is a player out of the league because 29 other GMs know he can't play.

(He had the cup of coffee with Warriors, but was inconsequential in playoffs and was added only due to injury and fortuitous timing).

Barnes would throw the ball all over the place. He was an unconscious gunner (38% FGs) and his body did not allow him to do anything defensively.

And yet he was on the floor way more than he should have been.

(The superior player, Omri, was inexplicably sent to Joerger's dog house and never got out.)

Is this the coach with unassailable judgement??? I don't think so.

But it is not that the coach lacks intelligence...

It is that he has a bias towards the past when the "glory days" are a distant memory.
I respect you quite a bit Blob, but I think that is an oversimplification of Joerger's approach. You make it sound like he is getting a commission for every win over 20 and will sacrifice the good of the team to get those wins (by wearing out the vets). I don't think it was true then and I don't think it's true now.

You can certainly disagree but I believe Matt Barnes was a role model that Dave was trotting out there. I think Barnes was a goon who worked his ass off, and Dave wanted his players to imitate his values. I heard Dave talk about "give the guy a hard shot in the ribs when he goes after the offensive board, and next time he'll decide to get back on defense instead". Matt was one of the few guys who brought that gritty intensity to the floor every minute. I did not mind the time Matt Barnes spent on the floor last year - I almost bought a #22 jersey. But I respect the opinion of people who don't like him.

Hard to follow how playing Barnes too much contributed to Boogie's exile tho - this is an argument I don't follow. I think Boogie and Barnes braided each other's hair and got in bar fights together... as bro as bro can be.

I guess I think it is way early to second guess his lineups and rotations... particularly since Bogdan hasn't been available, we had a back-to-back, and Malachi could not hit water if he fell out of a boat so far. I want to see where we are after 10 games I guess.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
#25
I respect you quite a bit Blob, but I think that is an oversimplification of Joerger's approach. You make it sound like he is getting a commission for every win over 20 and will sacrifice the good of the team to get those wins (by wearing out the vets). I don't think it was true then and I don't think it's true now.

...I guess I think it is way early to second guess his lineups and rotations... particularly since Bogdan hasn't been available, we had a back-to-back, and Malachi could not hit water if he fell out of a boat so far. I want to see where we are after 10 games I guess.
Well said. I pretty much agree. Joerger, I think, is going to do things by his time table, even if it's frustrating to some of us who want to see things change more quickly. He seems to make his decisions based on a lot of empirical evidence. I can live with that even if I don't always agree.

As far as Matt Barnes was concerned, he earned his time on the court by being exactly what Joerger wanted/needed him to be. Disregarding the off-court issues, Matt fulfilled his role perfectly - up to and including being somewhat of a companion (good or bad) to the mercurial center.

I have faith in Joerger. At the Rockets game, I was sitting across from the bench and was able to watch him almost the whole game. He is animated, involved, passionate and focused. He doesn't ignore his players but he doesn't harp at them either. He's like a strict but fair teacher who isn't worried about being your friend. He does his job and he's the one you'll look back on forever as someone who really made a difference. He is, in other words, EXACTLY what our young guys need.
 

Larry89

Disgruntled Kings Fan
#27
Fox needs to start. We need dribble penetration and fast-break opportunities. Starting HILL and ZACH just makes everything so slow and methodical. 3 straight games of extremely slow offensive starts. Replace Justin with Temple as well.
 
#29
PF: Skal / ZBo
SF: Bogdan / JJ / VC
C: WCS / KK / Papa
SG: Buddy / Temple / Malichi
PG: Fox / Hill / Mason

I'm ready for Fox, Skal and Bogdan to start!!!

The vets should be coming in off the bench, except maybe Hill, who could start next to Fox, instead of Buddy at Shooting Guard.
 
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