what do we do?
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http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4962&page=3&highlight=dalembert
That doesn't exactly answer your question, but it hints at it. My short answer would be, yes he would be good, but we can probably do better for the price he's going to command on the market. I think we might actually be better off signing a SG as a free agent (better value for the MLE I think) and looking to trade for a big man.
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I've been looking at the 2005 draft talent some more (clearly I have far too much free time) and I thought that Danny Granger could be good for us. He's a SF, but could maybe be converted to a SG role. There's been much talk of his defensive skills at some of the draft message boards. Add him to my list of intriguing SG prospects along with Rudy Fernandez, Julius Hodge and Francisco Garcia.
That doesn't exactly answer your question, but it hints at it. My short answer would be, yes he would be good, but we can probably do better for the price he's going to command on the market. I think we might actually be better off signing a SG as a free agent (better value for the MLE I think) and looking to trade for a big man.
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I've been looking at the 2005 draft talent some more (clearly I have far too much free time) and I thought that Danny Granger could be good for us. He's a SF, but could maybe be converted to a SG role. There's been much talk of his defensive skills at some of the draft message boards. Add him to my list of intriguing SG prospects along with Rudy Fernandez, Julius Hodge and Francisco Garcia.
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Other than the term "rebuilding" nothing is too drastic. We are a number of major pieces away from contention, let alone an actual title.
In no particular order:
-- a shotblocking big man good enough to start or play at least 25min anight
-- a bigtime rebounder for his position, most likely a big man, and maybe the same guy as above
-- a perimeter defensive stopper, again preferably a starter
-- a first rate post player, makes most sense if its a big man
-- at least one slashing penetrator, who again is part of the core + plays 20+ min
-- and, a real goto type player, who we can throw the ball to in tight, big, must have situations, and have him produce consistently.
and in general more size, athleticism, and a few more passers
then we can talk title.
In no particular order:
-- a shotblocking big man good enough to start or play at least 25min anight
-- a bigtime rebounder for his position, most likely a big man, and maybe the same guy as above
-- a perimeter defensive stopper, again preferably a starter
-- a first rate post player, makes most sense if its a big man
-- at least one slashing penetrator, who again is part of the core + plays 20+ min
-- and, a real goto type player, who we can throw the ball to in tight, big, must have situations, and have him produce consistently.
and in general more size, athleticism, and a few more passers
then we can talk title.
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That's a nice summary Bricklayer. Those are the things I've been looking at for potential draft picks and free agents. Of course the ideal situation would be if all of those quality were found in two players who we can add to the starting lineup at PF and SG. I doubt it's all going to happen in one offseason, but if we can at least get half of those things without giving up too much, than we'll have less holes to fill the next year and so on until we've got the right pieces.
There's really no reason for Kings fans to panic. So we're not going to win it all this year. We're still in a much better position in terms of building towards a championship than a whole lot of other teams. Most other teams I'd say.
There's really no reason for Kings fans to panic. So we're not going to win it all this year. We're still in a much better position in terms of building towards a championship than a whole lot of other teams. Most other teams I'd say.
to me the most important thing is just getting players who can contribute and make it seem like we have a chance...honestly, since the day webb was traded i never once seriously believed we were gonna get out of the first round...we need people who will bring spirit along with talent even if that means giving up a few players
Chandler will be out of our range, I do believe. The most we can offer is the MLE, which is roughly $5 million? and I have little doubt the Bulls would match.
Swift may be cheaper than expected with his poor showing this past year. Gadzuric would be a nice guy to have, his per 48 rebounding and blocks are off the charts. He and Songaila would be nice off the bench, and we could package Tag/Thomas/Corliss for a good SG or PF.
Swift may be cheaper than expected with his poor showing this past year. Gadzuric would be a nice guy to have, his per 48 rebounding and blocks are off the charts. He and Songaila would be nice off the bench, and we could package Tag/Thomas/Corliss for a good SG or PF.
Ok, Ok, Ok, everyone settle down...let's not start our rebuilding program quite so quick. How many other NBA team have won 50+ games for FIVE straight years? hummm? Anyone care to guess?
Well lets look at the Kings from the top down....
Ownership: Great the brothers Maloof and Joe Benvenuti have done a great job at building a solid organization and bringing professional sports to a new level in Sac.
Coaching: Rick is a good coach and great guy. Lets see in the past we have tried guys like Bill Russell, Jerry Reynolds, Dick Motta, Rex Hughes, and Garry St. Jean. Do you want any of them to lead the Kings? Don't think so...What about the "pool" of available coaches? Saunders? Phil? Nada!!! Would rather have Adelman
Players: We have a great group of core players. Any other team in the league would want Peja, Bibby, and Bobby. Skinner and Thomas have proved they can work hard and create energy. Miller is a great fit for our middle and complemented well by Darius. That's your core 6 players. The rest, Mo, Cuttino, Corless, Tag, House, Martin, and Daniels are just what they should be - support players. These guys will come and go until we have all the puzzle pieces. Maybe they will keep an eye on Kevin Martin becuase he is only a rookie, but remember we gave up on Wallace once so nobody is safe.
I am sure this off season, whenever it finally does come, the same smart folks who build this team can find the right players to come in and get the job done. Until then, Game 5 in Seattle is Tuesday Night. After that win we come home back to Arco. Do not be suprised when the Kings force a game 7 back in Seattle. That my friends is just two wins away and I know we can do that.
As for last night, I was there, and Ray Allen was unstopable. I have seen Jordon, Bird, and Magic play like that and when they do, they take over the game. Nothing you can do but try and answer or slow them down. The Kings did neither. But lets not destroy the team for that....Keep the faith and someday...soon....we will be one top again.
Well lets look at the Kings from the top down....
Ownership: Great the brothers Maloof and Joe Benvenuti have done a great job at building a solid organization and bringing professional sports to a new level in Sac.
Coaching: Rick is a good coach and great guy. Lets see in the past we have tried guys like Bill Russell, Jerry Reynolds, Dick Motta, Rex Hughes, and Garry St. Jean. Do you want any of them to lead the Kings? Don't think so...What about the "pool" of available coaches? Saunders? Phil? Nada!!! Would rather have Adelman
Players: We have a great group of core players. Any other team in the league would want Peja, Bibby, and Bobby. Skinner and Thomas have proved they can work hard and create energy. Miller is a great fit for our middle and complemented well by Darius. That's your core 6 players. The rest, Mo, Cuttino, Corless, Tag, House, Martin, and Daniels are just what they should be - support players. These guys will come and go until we have all the puzzle pieces. Maybe they will keep an eye on Kevin Martin becuase he is only a rookie, but remember we gave up on Wallace once so nobody is safe.
I am sure this off season, whenever it finally does come, the same smart folks who build this team can find the right players to come in and get the job done. Until then, Game 5 in Seattle is Tuesday Night. After that win we come home back to Arco. Do not be suprised when the Kings force a game 7 back in Seattle. That my friends is just two wins away and I know we can do that.
As for last night, I was there, and Ray Allen was unstopable. I have seen Jordon, Bird, and Magic play like that and when they do, they take over the game. Nothing you can do but try and answer or slow them down. The Kings did neither. But lets not destroy the team for that....Keep the faith and someday...soon....we will be one top again.
There is a limit, a cap, to how far you can go with a bunch of good and ok players, and no great ones. Memphis has topped out. And now we are in the same boat. The depth is very useful in the regular season to overcome injuries, to give you a boost on the second night of back to backs, to wear down teams at the end of long road trips etc.. But all of those advantages go away in the playoffs when the games are spaced, there's plenty of preparation time, and everyone is totally focused. Then its your best on their best and the ceiling is much lower for a team just hoping for somebody to step forward among their multitudes than it is for a team with more concentrated talent and a better sense of identity and roles.
We've been a .500 team for the entire back half of the season. Our 50 wins was built early when we streaked out to a 27-11 start. Since then its been 23-21. If we brought back this same team it might improve enough to reach 50 win status on its own. Maybe. But that would be its top end potential, so there is no point. Better to make signicant changes which give you the chance to achieve greatness again than stick with a team that tops out in Memphis mediocrity.
Real interesting question will be what we do with the tatters of our core. We love our shooters in Sacto, but they are such limited beasts, and we have so many major ones who are at the heart of our defensive, rebounding, and hustle issues. If we keep all of them its hard to imagine this team ever having the toughness to really be great. We would need to find absolutely tremendous hustle/rebounding/defensive players to surround them with, not to mention a player or players able to creat their own offense and make things happen. Guys good enough to not only take care of their own business, but cover for their teammates' softness too. The more rational approach may be to move one or more of the core shooters, but can a franchise addicted to shooting bring itself to actually trade it away and go another direction?
We've been a .500 team for the entire back half of the season. Our 50 wins was built early when we streaked out to a 27-11 start. Since then its been 23-21. If we brought back this same team it might improve enough to reach 50 win status on its own. Maybe. But that would be its top end potential, so there is no point. Better to make signicant changes which give you the chance to achieve greatness again than stick with a team that tops out in Memphis mediocrity.
Real interesting question will be what we do with the tatters of our core. We love our shooters in Sacto, but they are such limited beasts, and we have so many major ones who are at the heart of our defensive, rebounding, and hustle issues. If we keep all of them its hard to imagine this team ever having the toughness to really be great. We would need to find absolutely tremendous hustle/rebounding/defensive players to surround them with, not to mention a player or players able to creat their own offense and make things happen. Guys good enough to not only take care of their own business, but cover for their teammates' softness too. The more rational approach may be to move one or more of the core shooters, but can a franchise addicted to shooting bring itself to actually trade it away and go another direction?
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I'm glad to see so many people have jumped on my Marko Jaric bandwagon. Just wanted to point out that I was there first 
It's sounding less likely that Tyson Chandler is an option. Chicago seems pretty intent on bringing their team back next year, especially if they continue making noise in the playoffs. Ray Allen is more unrealistic than Larry Hughes. Seattle is already offering him 10 million plus per season and he wants more.
About the limit of having a team of good but not great players, you of course are aware of the counter example in Detroit. I don't care how many times they give Ben Wallace the "Defensive Player of the Year" award, he's just a good player. Sheed could be great, but seems content to be merely good and their other guys all do something well but they're not even all stars, much less superstars. They also happen to be undersized at center. Those are your defending champions. And I don't buy into the whole 'defense wins championships' schtick. They won because they play under control and they play as a unit. They keep stupid mistakes to a bare minimum. In a game like basketball it's actually kind of silly to seperate offense and defense because the two play into each other so much.
Doug Christie, Vlade Divac, Chris Webber, Mike Bibby, Peja Stojakovic. That's the team that was one game away from the finals, and Webber was the only superstar of the bunch. And that's why I don't think a whole top to bottom rebuilding is in order. We need a couple of big pieces and we'll probably have to give up some of our smaller pieces to get them one way or another. Brad Miller is one of the most versatile centers in the game. Any team would be happy to have him. Peja isn't a go-to scorer, but he can hit shots anywhere on the floor, move the ball well, and work for steals. Bibby has got a reliable shot coming off the screen, the ability to penetrate, and a good sense of how to work the pick and roll. They're not bad pieces if you analyze them in terms of what they are, rather than what they aren't. I think we should give the franchise more credit for developing a way to win with what they've got. We're a jumpshooting team because we have skilled shooters. Bring in guys with other skills, and I'm confident they'll be utilized too.
It's sounding less likely that Tyson Chandler is an option. Chicago seems pretty intent on bringing their team back next year, especially if they continue making noise in the playoffs. Ray Allen is more unrealistic than Larry Hughes. Seattle is already offering him 10 million plus per season and he wants more.
About the limit of having a team of good but not great players, you of course are aware of the counter example in Detroit. I don't care how many times they give Ben Wallace the "Defensive Player of the Year" award, he's just a good player. Sheed could be great, but seems content to be merely good and their other guys all do something well but they're not even all stars, much less superstars. They also happen to be undersized at center. Those are your defending champions. And I don't buy into the whole 'defense wins championships' schtick. They won because they play under control and they play as a unit. They keep stupid mistakes to a bare minimum. In a game like basketball it's actually kind of silly to seperate offense and defense because the two play into each other so much.
Doug Christie, Vlade Divac, Chris Webber, Mike Bibby, Peja Stojakovic. That's the team that was one game away from the finals, and Webber was the only superstar of the bunch. And that's why I don't think a whole top to bottom rebuilding is in order. We need a couple of big pieces and we'll probably have to give up some of our smaller pieces to get them one way or another. Brad Miller is one of the most versatile centers in the game. Any team would be happy to have him. Peja isn't a go-to scorer, but he can hit shots anywhere on the floor, move the ball well, and work for steals. Bibby has got a reliable shot coming off the screen, the ability to penetrate, and a good sense of how to work the pick and roll. They're not bad pieces if you analyze them in terms of what they are, rather than what they aren't. I think we should give the franchise more credit for developing a way to win with what they've got. We're a jumpshooting team because we have skilled shooters. Bring in guys with other skills, and I'm confident they'll be utilized too.
Detroit is such a rare occurence that its hardly anything to be hanging one's hat on. But even so, the thing people don't realize about Detroit is that they are VERY shallow. VERY concentrated. They play 6 guys. Last year in the Finals they played 5. They may not have that singular superstar, but even there there is a question mark because what they have ARE great players. Great DEFENSIVE players. But they are still great. And with their hyper-concentration of talent in their top 5 or 6 they are certainly no argument at all that you win with lots of middling players. And especially not with offensive minded ones. The defense wins champiosnhips bit is, after some 30 or so years of uninterrupted proof, pretty much just fact. A truly great team with truly great stars will beat anybody. But barring that, its pretty much best defensive team takes it.
Great players win championships. Middling ones just come along for the ride. And finding great players is a bit more difficult than just whistling your way down to the corner and signing one with the exception. Peja/Biby/Brad have no shot, none, to win a title on their own. Not even close. They could be the support crew for somebody who did, but finding that player or players and acquiring them for Greg Ostertag and Corliss is going to be a tad difficult.
As an aside, Marko is interesting as a new Christie, but only if we keep the old team structure, and I'm not sure that that is warranted or even desirable. Just trying to be a cheap knockoff of our former selves won't get it done. Another problem with Marko, especially when you are talking about the Kings, is that he is extremely injury prone and misses 20-30 games a year. I think we've had enough injuries to last us a lifetime.
Great players win championships. Middling ones just come along for the ride. And finding great players is a bit more difficult than just whistling your way down to the corner and signing one with the exception. Peja/Biby/Brad have no shot, none, to win a title on their own. Not even close. They could be the support crew for somebody who did, but finding that player or players and acquiring them for Greg Ostertag and Corliss is going to be a tad difficult.
As an aside, Marko is interesting as a new Christie, but only if we keep the old team structure, and I'm not sure that that is warranted or even desirable. Just trying to be a cheap knockoff of our former selves won't get it done. Another problem with Marko, especially when you are talking about the Kings, is that he is extremely injury prone and misses 20-30 games a year. I think we've had enough injuries to last us a lifetime.
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Well, I'm guessing Peja gets packaged w/ a big contract for an existing superstar. I have no idea who though. Last year guys like T-Mac were available. This year, who knows? Shoot, I might even make a run at Okafor, dangling Brad and Peja.
Throw the MLE at Kwame, see if he bites. Make a run at Bobby Simmons. Maybe package Bobby too, to a team like Houston that needs a better PG. Sura is alright though. New Orleans could use a PG, and we could use David West. I would keep Thomas, Bibby, and Brad of the starting 5, and slide Thomas over to small forward. He'll get beat by quicker 3's, but it's not like that doesn't happen already at that position.
Throw the MLE at Kwame, see if he bites. Make a run at Bobby Simmons. Maybe package Bobby too, to a team like Houston that needs a better PG. Sura is alright though. New Orleans could use a PG, and we could use David West. I would keep Thomas, Bibby, and Brad of the starting 5, and slide Thomas over to small forward. He'll get beat by quicker 3's, but it's not like that doesn't happen already at that position.
VF21 said:
I'm holding out for Kevin Garnett.
http://www.thomas-pradel.de/mp3_bb/dream.mp3