What about Bogs?

#1
I'd rather have Barnes than Bogs, so I'm not too concerned about saving $ for Bogs to keep Barnes. Barnes is a better defender and rebounder. And I think he's a more consistent outside shooter who doesn't need to dribble, dribble, dribble to be effective on offense. I still see Bogs as a questionable part of the core and wouldn't be surprised to see him be traded for someone who fits better with the rest of the core.
Guess I just want to go on record as (still) being a big Bogi supporter. And not just in general, but as integral to the Kings core. I know his sophmore season wasn't what we had hoped for. But he was coming off knee surgery and missed the beginning of the season. Then it took him a while to adjust to our new pace. Yes, his matador defense can get tiresome, as can his overdribbling. But he's smart and talented, is well-liked, and I still think he can be our Manu - if only Luke can figure that out. With Bags and Giles penciled in as starters, I'd say Bogi becomes our first player off the bench.
 
#2
Guess I just want to go on record as (still) being a big Bogi supporter. And not just in general, but as integral to the Kings core. I know his sophmore season wasn't what we had hoped for. But he was coming off knee surgery and missed the beginning of the season. Then it took him a while to adjust to our new pace. Yes, his matador defense can get tiresome, as can his overdribbling. But he's smart and talented, is well-liked, and I still think he can be our Manu - if only Luke can figure that out. With Bags and Giles penciled in as starters, I'd say Bogi becomes our first player off the bench.
I’m with you on Bogi. I would add playing out of position at the 3 much of the year. I think Bogi is much better as a 2 or ball handler with a scoring 1. I definitely want to wait and see he and Giles play together more often.
 
#3
Guess I just want to go on record as (still) being a big Bogi supporter. And not just in general, but as integral to the Kings core. I know his sophmore season wasn't what we had hoped for. But he was coming off knee surgery and missed the beginning of the season. Then it took him a while to adjust to our new pace. Yes, his matador defense can get tiresome, as can his overdribbling. But he's smart and talented, is well-liked, and I still think he can be our Manu - if only Luke can figure that out. With Bags and Giles penciled in as starters, I'd say Bogi becomes our first player off the bench.

What killed us is Bogie turned it on when it seemed like the rest of the team gave up. He was abysmal during that stretch where the Kings kept losing by 2 to the best teams in the NBA and then in the last 10 games of the season he averaged 28min, 15pts, and almost had a 4/1 TO ratio with 47% shooting from the field and 49% shooting from beyond the arc. If we get some kind of semblance of that next year then he's going to be the guy we thought he was. We just need him to show up all year and not go on a 4 month slump like he seemed to do this year.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#4
I'd rather have Barnes than Bogs, so I'm not too concerned about saving $ for Bogs to keep Barnes. Barnes is a better defender and rebounder. And I think he's a more consistent outside shooter who doesn't need to dribble, dribble, dribble to be effective on offense. I still see Bogs as a questionable part of the core and wouldn't be surprised to see him be traded for someone who fits better with the rest of the core.
I think what makes Bog's valuable is that he can move over and play the point, and to be fair, a lot of his dribbling is to set someone else for a basket. I do think his game suffered a bit this season, which is why I wondered if he was nursing some small injury. His shooting did improve the last few weeks. One thing I've learned over the years is to not make snap judgements on players when they go through a bad period. It's frustrating to watch, but players like Bog's don't suddenly forget how to play. There's usually some reason.
 
#5
I think what makes Bog's valuable is that he can move over and play the point, and to be fair, a lot of his dribbling is to set someone else for a basket. I do think his game suffered a bit this season, which is why I wondered if he was nursing some small injury. His shooting did improve the last few weeks. One thing I've learned over the years is to not make snap judgements on players when they go through a bad period. It's frustrating to watch, but players like Bog's don't suddenly forget how to play. There's usually some reason.
Bogs needs just a tad more structure in the offense to bring the best out in him. Our offensive structure, despite the numbers/speed, etc. was actually pretty thin, and seemed "optional" much of the time. Shockingly, players stopped moving a lot, and frequently the plays that got us the scoring were simple pick and roll, 2 man game, etc. Bogs, imo, does have a great feel for the 5 man game, but we need a coach who can lead the rest of the team in learning that. Adelman was the last one of those we had. Bogs can be a great second lead guard option for a dynamic 5 man offense, but we can't devolve into 2 man game with 3 standing around or maybe 1 other making a cut. Full involvement needed. He has the mental competence for that.

Also, a reliable floater, as Bogs is developing/has now, is an absolutely deadly shot in a 5 man motion offense, reason is because it exploits the in-between coverage area just outside the key that is a fairly easy area to clear out and get to (just outside of rim protectors reach, but just after you beat the perimeter D). That area can be gotten to fairly reliably with a motion offense. E.g. Spurs and Tony Parker back in the day.
 
#6
Bogs needs just a tad more structure in the offense to bring the best out in him. Our offensive structure, despite the numbers/speed, etc. was actually pretty thin, and seemed "optional" much of the time. Shockingly, players stopped moving a lot, and frequently the plays that got us the scoring were simple pick and roll, 2 man game, etc. Bogs, imo, does have a great feel for the 5 man game, but we need a coach who can lead the rest of the team in learning that. Adelman was the last one of those we had. Bogs can be a great second lead guard option for a dynamic 5 man offense, but we can't devolve into 2 man game with 3 standing around or maybe 1 other making a cut. Full involvement needed. He has the mental competence for that.

Also, a reliable floater, as Bogs is developing/has now, is an absolutely deadly shot in a 5 man motion offense, reason is because it exploits the in-between coverage area just outside the key that is a fairly easy area to clear out and get to (just outside of rim protectors reach, but just after you beat the perimeter D). That area can be gotten to fairly reliably with a motion offense. E.g. Spurs and Tony Parker back in the day.
Good point.

The other thing I suspect is Joeger wanted Bogi to be more of an ISO scorer. To make space for himself, Bogi has to go to the step back. Problem is Bogi’s step back isn’t that good and he lost a whole summer to work on it. I wonder how much better he might be with a healthy summer to work on his step back timing and rhythm.
 
#7
I really like Bogi’s game as he should be back to the player his was the first year he came here. He makes a good secondary ball handler but would love to see us figure out how to get a good backup point guard to press the pace with the second team.

As far as Barnes I really don’t see him opting out.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#8
Guess I just want to go on record as (still) being a big Bogi supporter. And not just in general, but as integral to the Kings core. I know his sophmore season wasn't what we had hoped for. But he was coming off knee surgery and missed the beginning of the season. Then it took him a while to adjust to our new pace. Yes, his matador defense can get tiresome, as can his overdribbling. But he's smart and talented, is well-liked, and I still think he can be our Manu - if only Luke can figure that out. With Bags and Giles penciled in as starters, I'd say Bogi becomes our first player off the bench.
His first season wasn't a consistent performance either. As I recall, there were plenty of explanations/excuses about his play centered around him being tired from his long euro season. I don't see the Manu comparison. Manu was considerably more athletic than Bogs.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#9
I think what makes Bog's valuable is that he can move over and play the point, and to be fair, a lot of his dribbling is to set someone else for a basket. I do think his game suffered a bit this season, which is why I wondered if he was nursing some small injury. His shooting did improve the last few weeks. One thing I've learned over the years is to not make snap judgements on players when they go through a bad period. It's frustrating to watch, but players like Bog's don't suddenly forget how to play. There's usually some reason.
But he can't just move over to the point. Haven't we seen this movie before? Dribble, dribble, dribble. Don't we have enough experience with Bogs at the point to realize he's not a point guard? Dribble, dribble, dribble. Divac knows that Bogs isn't a point guard. Dribble, dribble, dribble. We know this because his mouthpiece, Napear, consistently talks about the Kings needing a backup point guard. Bogs is only someone who should play point guard in emergency situations in which both Fox and the backup are injured. In other words, when you're desperate.

I agree with the self-evident proposition that there are reasons for things. Maybe Bogs just isn't athletic enough to overcome the minor physical ailments that most basketball players have to deal with. Maybe there is something chronically wrong with his body that is not going away. After two years of observations, it's very difficult to dismiss his "condition" as something that is temporary. Two years is not a snap judgment. At least in my book.
 
#10
His first season wasn't a consistent performance either. As I recall, there were plenty of explanations/excuses about his play centered around him being tired from his long euro season. I don't see the Manu comparison. Manu was considerably more athletic than Bogs.
That long euro season has been pretty well documented and discussed. If you write it all off as an "excuse," then I know there's no getting through to you to see a comparison. Have a nice day.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#11
That long euro season has been pretty well documented and discussed. If you write it all off as an "excuse," then I know there's no getting through to you to see a comparison. Have a nice day.
The point is: How do you know the long euro season had anything to do with his mediocre season in Year 1? You really don't. All you know is that he did in fact have a mediocre season in Year 1. Just as, all you know for Year 2 is that he had a mediocre season.
 
#12
The point is: How do you know the long euro season had anything to do with his mediocre season in Year 1? You really don't. All you know is that he did in fact have a mediocre season in Year 1. Just as, all you know for Year 2 is that he had a mediocre season.
Ginobli in his first 2 seasons put up the following numbers:
20.7 mins, 43.8 fg%, 34.5 3pt%, 2.9 rbs, 2.0 asts, 7.6 pts.
29.4 mins, 41.8 fg%, 35.9 3pt%, 3.8 rbs, 3.8 asts, 12.8 pts.
Bogdon put up these numers:
27.9 mins, 44.6 fg%, 39.2 3pt%, 2.9 rbs, 3.3 asts, 11.8 pts.
27.8 mins, 41.8 fg%, 36.0 3pt%, 3.5 rbs, 3.8 asts, 14.1 pts.

I have pointed this out before, but most of the European players that have come over to the NBA seem to have started their first season at age 25. Almost all of them hit their stride in their 3rd season. This was true of Ginobli, Pretrovic & Marciulionis.
 
#13
Ginobli in his first 2 seasons put up the following numbers:
20.7 mins, 43.8 fg%, 34.5 3pt%, 2.9 rbs, 2.0 asts, 7.6 pts.
29.4 mins, 41.8 fg%, 35.9 3pt%, 3.8 rbs, 3.8 asts, 12.8 pts.
Bogdon put up these numers:
27.9 mins, 44.6 fg%, 39.2 3pt%, 2.9 rbs, 3.3 asts, 11.8 pts.
27.8 mins, 41.8 fg%, 36.0 3pt%, 3.5 rbs, 3.8 asts, 14.1 pts.

I have pointed this out before, but most of the European players that have come over to the NBA seem to have started their first season at age 25. Almost all of them hit their stride in their 3rd season. This was true of Ginobli, Pretrovic & Marciulionis.
Hard not to see the comparison given the almost identical production in the first two years. Less athletic but puts the ball in the basket at slightly better overall efficiency while managing to dribble dribble dribble his way into close to 4 AST per game with a 2.23 AST/TO in the second season.
 
#14
About Bogdan

Near the end of the season, actually right before he started his solid closing stretch there was mention either on the post game show or Grants show about Dave Joerger feeling that Bogdan was struggling because of the pace and that he is more suited in a half court offense. Not restricted to a half court offense obviously but it might explain why he looked overall different and more seamless last season when the Kings were among the slowest in the league and seemed like a wrench at times this season, especially when placed with the starters. Also attributed was the fact that he was a utility guy for three positions, primarily SF and he never really settled into an actual role with this seasons team. There was times they wanted him to be the main playmaker, other times they wanted him to spot shoot. Bring the ball up. Guard the best scorer on the other team.

For next season, I think the fast paced offense from the starters(featuring Bagley next season) and a more methodical approach from out bench(Bogdan, Harry) will be a pretty neat dynamic so long as everybody has defined roles and we make the necessary additions to take the load off Bogie. They really just put too much on his back this season and it clearly wore him down.
 
#15
Good point.

The other thing I suspect is Joeger wanted Bogi to be more of an ISO scorer. To make space for himself, Bogi has to go to the step back. Problem is Bogi’s step back isn’t that good and he lost a whole summer to work on it. I wonder how much better he might be with a healthy summer to work on his step back timing and rhythm.
All true. Joerger with all his chuztpah and smarts was actually not that great of an offensive coach, plays off timeouts notwithstanding. I'm not sure if this was a philosophical issue or a knowledge one or a leadership one, but relying on iso scoring when you don't have an Iverson, Kobe, Lebron, etc, is a weakness. This unfairly put pressure on Bogs to be something he's not. Good thing is the iso/stepback work will still benenfit him in a 5 man motion offense, which I hope Luke employs... or, maybe a modified Triangle/Princeton. I get the feeling Luke will coach for the game as it is today, not coach for the players. But those are closely aligned now since Vlade has assembled players built for the modern game. Should be a fun year. My prediction is Bogs has a surprising mini-comeback year of sorts.
 
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#16
Ginobli in his first 2 seasons put up the following numbers:
20.7 mins, 43.8 fg%, 34.5 3pt%, 2.9 rbs, 2.0 asts, 7.6 pts.
29.4 mins, 41.8 fg%, 35.9 3pt%, 3.8 rbs, 3.8 asts, 12.8 pts.
Bogdon put up these numers:
27.9 mins, 44.6 fg%, 39.2 3pt%, 2.9 rbs, 3.3 asts, 11.8 pts.
27.8 mins, 41.8 fg%, 36.0 3pt%, 3.5 rbs, 3.8 asts, 14.1 pts.

I have pointed this out before, but most of the European players that have come over to the NBA seem to have started their first season at age 25. Almost all of them hit their stride in their 3rd season. This was true of Ginobli, Pretrovic & Marciulionis.
Maybe someone like Capt is better suited to answer this question, but is there some sort of index or benchmark for the average player's stats over time? Context is that I do think stats these days are inflated, both in terms of counting as well as pace and rules allowing for more scoring etc. When you make comparisons like this going back 20 years I'm just wondering if there is something we can use to adjust the stats for the different eras
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#17
Ginobli in his first 2 seasons put up the following numbers:
20.7 mins, 43.8 fg%, 34.5 3pt%, 2.9 rbs, 2.0 asts, 7.6 pts.
29.4 mins, 41.8 fg%, 35.9 3pt%, 3.8 rbs, 3.8 asts, 12.8 pts.
Bogdon put up these numers:
27.9 mins, 44.6 fg%, 39.2 3pt%, 2.9 rbs, 3.3 asts, 11.8 pts.
27.8 mins, 41.8 fg%, 36.0 3pt%, 3.5 rbs, 3.8 asts, 14.1 pts.

I have pointed this out before, but most of the European players that have come over to the NBA seem to have started their first season at age 25. Almost all of them hit their stride in their 3rd season. This was true of Ginobli, Pretrovic & Marciulionis.
Those stats mean absolutely nothing. It's like a correlation that has no logical connection. If you saw Manu in his younger days you absolutely know he was much more athletic than Bogs. It's not even a discussion. When Bogs makes a dunk it's news, take a picture to remember it. When Manu went in and slammed it wasn't a big deal. The Manu comparison with Bogs was waay over the top ridiculous from the get-go. Manu was a much more active player, and by the way, a much grittier player than Bogs has shown over the last two years. Manu would get after loose balls, whereas Bogs does a whole lot of watching.
 
#18
Those stats mean absolutely nothing. It's like a correlation that has no logical connection. If you saw Manu in his younger days you absolutely know he was much more athletic than Bogs. It's not even a discussion. When Bogs makes a dunk it's news, take a picture to remember it. When Manu went in and slammed it wasn't a big deal. The Manu comparison with Bogs was waay over the top ridiculous from the get-go. Manu was a much more active player, and by the way, a much grittier player than Bogs has shown over the last two years. Manu would get after loose balls, whereas Bogs does a whole lot of watching.
It's strange, I don't remember saying anywhere that Bogie's athleticism was the same as Ginobli's. The comparison has always been about what those players bring to the court. Both are versatile players that could get by at 3 different positions. The problem is when you start comparing Ginobli in his prime to Bogie's during his first 2 seasons.

When Ginobli came to the NBA, he was completely out of control & inconsistent. There were many who questioned if he would make it or end up over in Europe. His 3rd season ended those questions.
I'm not saying Bogie will be as good as Ginobli. I do feel he at least deserves the time others have received to prove he belongs. History shows us thatitgenerally takes 3 seasons for a veteran European player to hit their stride. Wait another year before making comparisons.
 
#19
It's strange, I don't remember saying anywhere that Bogie's athleticism was the same as Ginobli's. The comparison has always been about what those players bring to the court. Both are versatile players that could get by at 3 different positions. The problem is when you start comparing Ginobli in his prime to Bogie's during his first 2 seasons.

When Ginobli came to the NBA, he was completely out of control & inconsistent. There were many who questioned if he would make it or end up over in Europe. His 3rd season ended those questions.
I'm not saying Bogie will be as good as Ginobli. I do feel he at least deserves the time others have received to prove he belongs. History shows us thatitgenerally takes 3 seasons for a veteran European player to hit their stride. Wait another year before making comparisons.
I agree with giving Bogi more time, but Manu was a force from his rookie year, getting playoff minutes. I don't remember questions about him having to go back to europe. His 3rd year he established himself as a star.
Rudy Fernandez is just as fair a comparison, and a cautionary tale against expecting improvement.

I think Bogi will find a fair medium in his aggressiveness between his rookie and second year, and hopefully keep his percentages closer to his rookie year.
 
#20
Those stats mean absolutely nothing. It's like a correlation that has no logical connection. If you saw Manu in his younger days you absolutely know he was much more athletic than Bogs. It's not even a discussion. When Bogs makes a dunk it's news, take a picture to remember it. When Manu went in and slammed it wasn't a big deal. The Manu comparison with Bogs was waay over the top ridiculous from the get-go. Manu was a much more active player, and by the way, a much grittier player than Bogs has shown over the last two years. Manu would get after loose balls, whereas Bogs does a whole lot of watching.
If you have a bias against Bogi, then the Manu comparison is absurd. But if you see Bogi for his potential, then the comparison is not so absurd. C'est la vie.
And the comparison was never about them being equally athletic. It's about whether Bogi might, in the future, become as valuable to the Kings as Manu was to the Spurs. Or even close.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#21
If you have a bias against Bogi, then the Manu comparison is absurd. But if you see Bogi for his potential, then the comparison is not so absurd. C'est la vie.
And the comparison was never about them being equally athletic. It's about whether Bogi might, in the future, become as valuable to the Kings as Manu was to the Spurs. Or even close.


And the answer is, no, not even close. Why? Because of the disparity in athleticism. There you go. The circle is closed.
 
#22
Ginobli in his first 2 seasons put up the following numbers:
20.7 mins, 43.8 fg%, 34.5 3pt%, 2.9 rbs, 2.0 asts, 7.6 pts.
29.4 mins, 41.8 fg%, 35.9 3pt%, 3.8 rbs, 3.8 asts, 12.8 pts.
Bogdon put up these numers:
27.9 mins, 44.6 fg%, 39.2 3pt%, 2.9 rbs, 3.3 asts, 11.8 pts.
27.8 mins, 41.8 fg%, 36.0 3pt%, 3.5 rbs, 3.8 asts, 14.1 pts.

I have pointed this out before, but most of the European players that have come over to the NBA seem to have started their first season at age 25. Almost all of them hit their stride in their 3rd season. This was true of Ginobli, Pretrovic & Marciulionis.
Both of those guys were on contenders. Petrovic in particular was buried in Portland so it's less that he broke out and more that he got a change of scenery and was allowed to do what he could. Bogdan has been given the green light on what's been bad and mediocre teams.

I've never been a big fan of Bogi. A 25 year old rookie with a limited ceiling having a modestly successful rookie season I was completely ambivalent about. The hype machine went to work for him; some held him as the shining example of our rebuild and why we had a bright future. I thought if he was the best we could do, we were doomed (This was before Fox and Buddy broke out, we moved up in the draft, and Giles was still being redshirted). I didn't think he would improve as much as some thought, he often gets the same leeway that the 19-22 year olds on our team get. A few examples of some late-bloomers who also happen to be international players won't change my mind.

I didn't expect him to REGRESS this season though.
 
#24
Both of those guys were on contenders. Petrovic in particular was buried in Portland so it's less that he broke out and more that he got a change of scenery and was allowed to do what he could. Bogdan has been given the green light on what's been bad and mediocre teams.

I've never been a big fan of Bogi. A 25 year old rookie with a limited ceiling having a modestly successful rookie season I was completely ambivalent about. The hype machine went to work for him; some held him as the shining example of our rebuild and why we had a bright future. I thought if he was the best we could do, we were doomed (This was before Fox and Buddy broke out, we moved up in the draft, and Giles was still being redshirted). I didn't think he would improve as much as some thought, he often gets the same leeway that the 19-22 year olds on our team get. A few examples of some late-bloomers who also happen to be international players won't change my mind.

I didn't expect him to REGRESS this season though.
I don't think anyone was thinking that Bogie was going to be our best player and if they did I don't think they thought the Kings would be a good team if Bogie was the #1 option either. If he puts it together next year and is a half step above his rookie season, he should just wind up being a really solid player. A Bobby Jackson type impact on the team. Best player off the bench and can start in a pinch and hold his own when needed.

The Kings don't need Bogie to become Petrovic or Ginobili to be successful. They just need him to be a secondary ball handler on the court and knock down his shots as the 2nd best shooter on the team (or 3rd if Beli is still around). If he can do that then the Kings should be in good shape. If he's being used as the primary ball handler off the bench then that's Vlade's fault for not getting anyone better than him to run the offense.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#25
The issue with Bogs is not whether he can play in the NBA and be a solid player. The issue is whether he should be considered part of the core going forward. When Vlade gets a call from a GM on Bogs does he hang up the phone, or does he ask, "What do you have in mind?"
 
#27
If we keep him I dont want him sharing the floor with Buddy. We end up giving up to much size/athletisism @ 3 and let's not kid ourselves he cant really play pg.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#28
The issue with Bogs is not whether he can play in the NBA and be a solid player. The issue is whether he should be considered part of the core going forward. When Vlade gets a call from a GM on Bogs does he hang up the phone, or does he ask, "What do you have in mind?"
I think the only time Vlade hangs up is or should be if Fox, Bagley or Giles are mentioned.