We've made an offer to Monta?
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roasthawg
Starter
I'm not a real big believer in this post. First off we're dealing with long time nba guys, successful business men, and just generally intelligent people... pretty sure they have a handle on the situation they're in. I believe they're working within a blueprint they've put together... offer players they like contracts which they feel are fair and nothing more. Worked for Landry, didn't work for Iggy or Monta. One outta three ain't bad so far.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
That presumes he didn't know that already. The guy has been around the league for years, not in a cave.
True, but it's different when you're actually behind the driver's seat. He hasn't had to do the job in Sacramento. Only in Denver, which is a different city and winning environment. You can give it your best guess, but it's still just a guess until you actually move into the situation. Most GMs are pretty invested in what is best for their team, not necessarily getting a pulse of what is going on with other teams - I doubt they have that kind of free time.
In this situation, I think the late sale of the team definitely put the ownership group behind the 8 ball - given more time, there would have been an opportunity to evaluate the situation a little differently, and I'd guess that this offseason might have turned out a little differently. Maybe not with Evans, (although you never know), but in terms of targeted pieces and different trades, I'll bet there would have been a few more wrinkles. They truly had to do things at the last minute, and that goes without mentioning the challenges of building from the ground up in Sacramento.
In this situation, I think the late sale of the team definitely put the ownership group behind the 8 ball - given more time, there would have been an opportunity to evaluate the situation a little differently, and I'd guess that this offseason might have turned out a little differently. Maybe not with Evans, (although you never know), but in terms of targeted pieces and different trades, I'll bet there would have been a few more wrinkles. They truly had to do things at the last minute, and that goes without mentioning the challenges of building from the ground up in Sacramento.
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Rockmeister
All-Star
Chris Sheridan @sheridanhoops 1 minute ago
Here's @MokeHamilton's latest FA update: Jeff Teague to #Bucks? Monta to #Bobcats? Chauncey Billups back to Motown: sheridanhoops.com/2013/07/11/mig…
Read more: http://hoopshype.com/twitter/media.html#ixzz2Yksf8BgU
Here's @MokeHamilton's latest FA update: Jeff Teague to #Bucks? Monta to #Bobcats? Chauncey Billups back to Motown: sheridanhoops.com/2013/07/11/mig…
Read more: http://hoopshype.com/twitter/media.html#ixzz2Yksf8BgU
roasthawg
Starter
No way man... this is NBA 101, lol. It's like wondering if a math major can figure out what the square root of 4 is. It's laughable... the entire league is based around these concepts. Everyone understands which cities players wanna go to, which coaches they wanna play for, and the fact that having a winning roster will go a long way to bringing better players in.
C'mon guys... at least keep it real. Try to follow along and critisize/applaud based on what might actually be the reasons for our moves here. =D
We'll agree to disagree.
Do you think if you dropped Danny Ainge into Orlando he would know exactly what he was getting into? Which players to keep, which players to move, just within a few days? Doubtful. He, like any other GM, has to have time to evaluate the players, or else he's just making decisions based off of a spreadsheet (not that I'm saying that's exactly what happened here.) You are invested in your own team until your part of another franchise. They don't spend all day playing NBA2K13 flirting around with rosters. They'll see star talent when it comes into their town to play against their team, but that's where a coach will have better input, and in this situation, we also have a green coach (albeit a potentially talented one.)
I'm not talking about bringing in Dwight Howard or Chris Paul, although part of the equation DOES relate to the fact that you'll never get them to come TO Sacramento unless you bring them up IN Sacramento - and that's a different discussion.
This isn't about blind faith or negativity, but realizing that the entire process is a complex one, and being dropped right into the heavy season for GMs (draft/FA period) is not only a challenge, but doubly so when you don't have the proper time to do your homework. It's like cramming for a test at the last minute. Time was not on their side.
Do you think if you dropped Danny Ainge into Orlando he would know exactly what he was getting into? Which players to keep, which players to move, just within a few days? Doubtful. He, like any other GM, has to have time to evaluate the players, or else he's just making decisions based off of a spreadsheet (not that I'm saying that's exactly what happened here.) You are invested in your own team until your part of another franchise. They don't spend all day playing NBA2K13 flirting around with rosters. They'll see star talent when it comes into their town to play against their team, but that's where a coach will have better input, and in this situation, we also have a green coach (albeit a potentially talented one.)
I'm not talking about bringing in Dwight Howard or Chris Paul, although part of the equation DOES relate to the fact that you'll never get them to come TO Sacramento unless you bring them up IN Sacramento - and that's a different discussion.
This isn't about blind faith or negativity, but realizing that the entire process is a complex one, and being dropped right into the heavy season for GMs (draft/FA period) is not only a challenge, but doubly so when you don't have the proper time to do your homework. It's like cramming for a test at the last minute. Time was not on their side.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
No, first of all roughly 1/3 of the league's executives appear developmentally disabled. Secondly of course its classic human nature to assume that it will be different for YOU. Now those other guys, clearly smalltimers and didn't know what they were doing. But now I, well I've got my fancy new owner, and we'll make a professional pitch and we'll...hey...um...where are you going? Come back!
Fact is we tried throwing a big contract at Iggy. Then pulled it in somewhat eyeopening fashion. Was this just an exercise for our health? Of course not. And its such a major player that you can't say the plan was just to sign Iggy...or not. Or Reke...or not. Or Monta...or not. These are franchise altering decisions, you don't just randomly attempt them without an expectation they are going to work.
Well here's our free agency period: we gave a too long Petrie contract to an aging tweener forward.
This is life as a Kings exec. Not Vivec nor PDA nor Malone has ever experienced it before. Until 6 months ago they didn't give a damn about the Sacramento Kings. We are the living memory. What they have to go look up, we just know. Of course they knew, or had been told, that hey, Sacramento = small market = FA challenge. But there's a difference between being told, and learning the hard way first hand. New owners, new pitch, new money...same story. And its why you don't let talent walk in this market. Of course by the time you've learned that lesson with your face, you've bled your little market dry of talent, and there are no transfusions like there are in L.A.
roasthawg
Starter
Oh man, if only running an nba team was so simple... you'd be competing against half wits rather than some of the best minds in the business with multiple decades worth of experience running million or even billion dollar businesses. Sorry man, this is the basics you're talking about here... PDA is well aware of the situation here in Sac when it comes to the desire or lack thereof of big name fa's to play here.
jalfa
Starter
oh god yes! Ellis and the Bobcats would be perfect for each other, especially now that they have Jefferson and Gordon is also still hanging around. Jordan might die of a coronary or try another comeback that alone would be worth it.
John Galt
Starter
I agree PDA absolutely knows what he's doing and neither Reke, Iggy, nor Monta was a botch. A difference of opinion on Reke has erupted into declaration of war by Brick vs PDA.
PDA, Malone, Vivek have seen Reke play, have access to scouting reports. In fact Malone and the ownership decision makers have watched Reke IN THE GYM at Arco, the last couple months. I trust their opinion on Reke's potential more than any kingsfan.com guy.
This front office was luke warm on Reke, and they are sky high on Vasquez. They were not hell bent on Monta, they are playing moneyball. Would they offer Monta the kind of money they would not offer Reke? Obviously hell no.
To me this has been an A+ off season as far as the roster goes. If you are a Reke true believer you gotta HATE this off season, but if not... well it all to me hinges on that. I'm accepting the premise that smart basketball guys took a pass on Reke for reasons more complex than "over a couple million dollars".
PDA, Malone, Vivek have seen Reke play, have access to scouting reports. In fact Malone and the ownership decision makers have watched Reke IN THE GYM at Arco, the last couple months. I trust their opinion on Reke's potential more than any kingsfan.com guy.
This front office was luke warm on Reke, and they are sky high on Vasquez. They were not hell bent on Monta, they are playing moneyball. Would they offer Monta the kind of money they would not offer Reke? Obviously hell no.
To me this has been an A+ off season as far as the roster goes. If you are a Reke true believer you gotta HATE this off season, but if not... well it all to me hinges on that. I'm accepting the premise that smart basketball guys took a pass on Reke for reasons more complex than "over a couple million dollars".
Padrino
All-Star
meh, that's a big time presumption, if ya ask me. while i hope for the sake of this team that they do "have a handle on the situation they're in," all across the league you've got a geometric ton of "long time nba guys, successful business men, and just generally intelligent people" who have no idea what they're doing in their respective roles for their respective organizations...
personally, i'm not about to declare any kind of blind faith in the new regime, especially when the future of the kings is on such terribly thin ice. so much has to go right for a young, non-defensive team without a legitimate second option behind their volatile cornerstone talent to start winning. tyreke evans is already out the door, and demarcus cousins could be next if the new regime can't provide him with a clear sense that the wins are on their way...
and if kings fans are hanging their hats on the hopes and prayers of the 2014 draft, well, in that instance i would just point to tyreke evans and demarcus cousins and say, "hey, there's no guarantees if a franchise isn't capable of building around star potential." or, if that's not convincing enough, just look at cleveland. look at orlando. there are thousands of ways for it all to go wrong, and not a lotta ways to get it right, not when you're an undesirable small market franchise with nearly a decade of investment in a losing culture...
i truly hope ranadive and co. can turn this thing around, but kings fans really need to exercise their critical muscles in these fragile moments. the "in vivek we trust" mantra was great when it was all we had, but now the team is where it belongs, and it's time to start building a winner. and the team is one demarcus cousins outburst away from the kind of trade demand that will send them back to square one in a hurry. and i'm not sure that a great many kings fans appreciate just how long the team could remain at square one. it's no time for panic. it's no time for impatience. but it's certainly appropriate to express urgency when a full collapse isn't exactly difficult to imagine...
roasthawg
Starter
This post pretty much sums up my feelings exactly.
Having witnessed first hand the decision making processes and the results of those processes of people running million and billion dollar businesses, you would be shocked how often and how bad the decision making process can be. Just because you run a large business does not make you infallible and you are just as likely to fall into the same mental traps as everyone else. Especially in areas outside of your expertise.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
you assume much that has yet to be proven.
And no more "but he's an NBA GM" nonsense. As I've pointed out numerous times, many NBA GMs are flat incompetent. Title does not denote authority, except in the military. An NBA GM once drafted Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan too. A "smart basketball mind"/longtime NBA stalwart once took Darko over Melo and DWade.
beb0p
Starter
Too big of a deal is made of the Kings pulling the offer to Iggy. This type of "Here's a big contract and I need an answer now" offer is not presented very often but it has happened before and it's part of the game. Most famously from Phoenix to Steve Nash, they presented Nash with an insane amount of money and they told him he had minutes to sign or the offer is off the table. Nash immediately called Cuban, who would not match the offer; minutes after Phoenix presented the offer, Nash was a Sun.
Now, contrast Nash with Iggy, who was also presented an insane amount of money and was also told that he has until a certain time to sign or the offer is pulled. What did Iggy do? He stalled. The offer is off the table. Dumb move on Iggy's part. Smart move on the Kings' part. Now the next FA knows that when the Kings give you a deadline, they mean it. Futhermore, Iggy was not going to sign with the Kings, all he was going to do was use that offer to get more money from somebody. Denver offered him more money for more years than the W, he signed with the W.
Bottom line, Iggy was not going to the highest bidder and the Kings never had a chance. The fact that our FO recognizes that, doesn't seem to indicates they are out of touch.
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roasthawg
Starter
This. Setting a precedent I believe was the point of emphasis here. Letting NBA player and agents know for the future that this is how the Kings do business. Very important not to be viewed as pushovers and to be taken seriously. Can end up saving ourselves a lot of time and effort in the future.
Padrino
All-Star
what good is such a useless pectoral flex when "the next FA" is carl landry? or monta ellis?
andre iguodala was the one attainable free agent who would have had a significantly positive impact on establishing a new culture in sacramento: a culture of defense, a culture of team play. he represented a veteran presence that could have guided the team's young talent in the direction of the "W." so you put a hefty offer on the table, and you force iguodala to say "no." but you don't pull the offer before he's had time to consider it, especially as a losing team in an undesirable small market...
we don't know the precise reason(s) that PDA pulled the offer, but, in my opinion, you propose to the girl of your dreams. you don't ***** out just because you fear the rejection. at worst, iggy turns down the big contract, and is exposed in his desire to use sacramento as leverage. at best, he chases the money you threw at him, and it doesn't seem like such a talent bleed to let tyreke evans walk for a role player. but all this posturing? entirely useless for a small market franchise with exactly zero bargaining power...
roasthawg
Starter
You're taking a very short sighted view here. Vivek and PDA have long term to think about.
Padrino
All-Star
no, they have the long term and the short term to think about. they may be all-in with demarcus cousins, but that doesn't mean demarcus cousins is all-in with them. it's clear that DMC wants to win, and sooner rather than later. he's on an expiring rookie contract, and he's accepting nothing less from sacramento than a max extension. even then, there's no guarantee that he's not demanding a trade the minute he realizes that this team is going nowhere...
andre iguodala would have gone a long way towards helping to correct the cultural problems facing this team and its locker room. and culture is precisely what ranadive has claimed he wanted to establish first. so you do not botch a chance at bringing in one of the most versatile and respected veteran swing men in the league over some misguided belief that your posturing is going to get you somewhere. this is the nba. it's a business. and it's where the big boys play. if you get bucked off the horse, you get right back on...
RussoTuristo
G-League
Typical small people mentality - most rich and famous are dumb and oh, if I only had a chance. It is international, it is everywhere. Almost every mechanic thinks that he can run a shop, almost every lawyer thinks that he should be a managing partner and most of his bosses are flat out incompetent, if not stupid, almost every NBA fan thinks that he can run a team and he is definitely smarter than those GM dummies. Oh, well.
Padrino
All-Star
David Kahn:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kahn_(sports_executive)
i have an english degree. in fact, i have an MA in english. perhaps i'm qualified to be an nba general manager...
Pete D'Allesandro:
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baske...netquot-high-to-sacramento-kings-gm-1.5549787
i don't know any sports agents, but my uncle is a successful lawyer. perhaps he's qualified to be an nba general manager...
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
You don't know who or what I am apparently.
My job requires me to bail "smart people" out of stupid mistakes every single day.
But that's only a defense against this one very silly charge. I am likely "smarter" than the great majority of people in NBA front offices by any traditional measure, but I don't for an instant believe that's why I know basketball. Basketball is just not that complex. Jaosn Kidd is now coaching. Jason Kidd couldn't pass his SATs he was so dim in any academic sense. Somewhere there is janitor and lifelong fan who is better at assessing talent than 75% of NBA GMs, and probably me too. Only difference that makes in my case is that the business environment is within my comfort zone too, so silly claims about "oh they are successful businessmen or longterm whatevers" hardly carry the weight of much authority for me.
And P.S., your supposition about lawyers, especially at major firms, is not generally correct.
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John Galt
Starter
It's not blind faith "because he is an NBA gm" or "because he's a rich guy". It is reasoned faith based on Vivek's labored and exhaustive search process, his penchant for hiring successfully (Forbes interview), PDA's background as one of the top guys in the Nuggets regime, and the overall complexion of this ownership/coaching group.
In the same breath some of you guys scoff at the notion that PDA's NBA pedigree and Vivek's overall successful track record should be taken into account, you claim great authority for yourselves based on ... I dunno... post count? Or what?
What I don't get is how some of you don't think a reasonable person could take an alternate point of view on Reke. I just don't get that. Were your assertions true, he would have done better than $44M to be Pelicans 6th man. And you don't seem to give any consideration to the idea that it might have been a forced "Reke vs Cousins" call. Nobody... not one person on this board... can claim to know the locker room dynamics between Reke and DMC. It might have been untenable to try and keep them together. We just don't know.
Anyway, if I'm Vivek, I hire PDA and don't interview any internet chat board megaposters for the job. That's just me.
I shudder to think how this board would be going if he'd hired the Memphis guy... good lord.
In the same breath some of you guys scoff at the notion that PDA's NBA pedigree and Vivek's overall successful track record should be taken into account, you claim great authority for yourselves based on ... I dunno... post count? Or what?
What I don't get is how some of you don't think a reasonable person could take an alternate point of view on Reke. I just don't get that. Were your assertions true, he would have done better than $44M to be Pelicans 6th man. And you don't seem to give any consideration to the idea that it might have been a forced "Reke vs Cousins" call. Nobody... not one person on this board... can claim to know the locker room dynamics between Reke and DMC. It might have been untenable to try and keep them together. We just don't know.
Anyway, if I'm Vivek, I hire PDA and don't interview any internet chat board megaposters for the job. That's just me.
I shudder to think how this board would be going if he'd hired the Memphis guy... good lord.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Or we could end up being "the hot girl with the crazy eyes." Sure, you want to go out with her, but there's an element of crazy behind those eyes that keeps you from asking for her number.
Or maybe you just can't have her for the right price.
re: Iggy, what if the Reke decision hinged on the Iggy decision? If Iggy agreed, they amnesty Salmons, waive their other free agents and sign Reke. Without Iggy they blow up the backcourt, cross their fingers for 2014 draft and clean house.
From a fan standpoint this is not optimal as it insures another sub par rebuilding year. But from a long term franchise health perspective it may be irrelevant - ultimately they just need to insure the team makes a splash by the new arena opening. We shall see.
From a fan standpoint this is not optimal as it insures another sub par rebuilding year. But from a long term franchise health perspective it may be irrelevant - ultimately they just need to insure the team makes a splash by the new arena opening. We shall see.
beb0p
Starter
Or we could end up being "the hot girl with the crazy eyes." Sure, you want to go out with her, but there's an element of crazy behind those eyes that keeps you from asking for her number.
On the flip side, if you ask a hot girl out and you're all excited and you told her you're ready to lavish and spoil her with all kinds of goodies and her response to you is, "Er... I don't know, let me get back to you."
Are you going to keep holding out hope or would you just pull the offer and move on?
Kingster -
Wait, we pay for hot & crazy?
beb0p -
We'll never know how it went down. Maybe the response was, "let me check my calendar," and we said, "too late! I never wanted you anyway!"
It's likely somewhere in the middle, with both sides to blame, yet neither side to blame.
Wait, we pay for hot & crazy?
beb0p -
We'll never know how it went down. Maybe the response was, "let me check my calendar," and we said, "too late! I never wanted you anyway!"
It's likely somewhere in the middle, with both sides to blame, yet neither side to blame.
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Kingster
Hall of Famer
what good is such a useless pectoral flex when "the next FA" is carl landry? or monta ellis?
andre iguodala was the one attainable free agent who would have had a significantly positive impact on establishing a new culture in sacramento: a culture of defense, a culture of team play. he represented a veteran presence that could have guided the team's young talent in the direction of the "W." so you put a hefty offer on the table, and you force iguodala to say "no." but you don't pull the offer before he's had time to consider it, especially as a losing team in an undesirable small market...
we don't know the precise reason(s) that PDA pulled the offer, but, in my opinion, you propose to the girl of your dreams. you don't ***** out just because you fear the rejection. at worst, iggy turns down the big contract, and is exposed in his desire to use sacramento as leverage. at best, he chases the money you threw at him, and it doesn't seem like such a talent bleed to let tyreke evans walk for a role player. but all this posturing? entirely useless for a small market franchise with exactly zero bargaining power...
Seems good to me regardless of who follows in potential FA candidates. The signal is sent for whomever and whenever. People have to know you're not going to be jerked around. It's a good move.
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