We've made an offer to Monta?

[Kingster]

Kingster -
Wait, we pay for hot & crazy?


beb0p -
We'll never know how it went down. Maybe the response was, "let me check my calendar," and we said, "too late! I never wanted you anyway!"

It's likely somewhere in the middle, with both sides to blame, yet neither side to blame.

Nah, we couldn't afford her to begin with and she didn't want us anyway. So she's got to be crazy...

 

[Kingster]

On the flip side, if you ask a hot girl out and you're all excited and you told her you're ready to lavish and spoil her with all kinds of goodies and her response to you is, "Er... I don't know, let me get back to you."

Are you going to keep holding out hope or would you just pull the offer and move on?[/QUOTE]

Depends on how desperate you are and how much willpower you have.

 

[beb0p]

what good is such a useless pectoral flex when "the next FA" is carl landry? or monta ellis?

Why do you act like the Kings will not pursue another big name FA? The next one could be Paul George, Rajon Rondo, Shane Battier, Tim Duncan, etc; so who knows?

andre iguodala was the one attainable free agent who would have had a significantly positive impact on establishing a new culture in sacramento: a culture of defense, a culture of team play. he represented a veteran presence that could have guided the team's young talent in the direction of the "W." so you put a hefty offer on the table, and you force iguodala to say "no." but you don't pull the offer before he's had time to consider it, especially as a losing team in an undesirable small market...

we don't know the precise reason(s) that PDA pulled the offer, but, in my opinion, you propose to the girl of your dreams. you don't ***** out just because you fear the rejection. at worst, iggy turns down the big contract, and is exposed in his desire to use sacramento as leverage. at best, he chases the money you threw at him, and it doesn't seem like such a talent bleed to let tyreke evans walk for a role player. but all this posturing? entirely useless for a small market franchise with exactly zero bargaining power...

1. Iggy was not attainable. No way. Not when he turned down serious money from a much better team (Denver) to sign elsewhere.

2. This type of take it or leave it contract is precisely the ONLY real bargaining power a small team like Sacramento has - to jump in front everyone else and to force the FA to sign it before he has time to shop around and use said contract as leverage. In negotiation you can be decisive or you can let the other party jerk you around, you seem to think the later is a good option; I don't.

 

[AaronPDX]

It's not blind faith "because he is an NBA gm" or "because he's a rich guy". It is reasoned faith based on Vivek's labored and exhaustive search process, his penchant for hiring successfully (Forbes interview), PDA's background as one of the top guys in the Nuggets regime, and the overall complexion of this ownership/coaching group.

In the same breath some of you guys scoff at the notion that PDA's NBA pedigree and Vivek's overall successful track record should be taken into account, you claim great authority for yourselves based on ... I dunno... post count? Or what?

What I don't get is how some of you don't think a reasonable person could take an alternate point of view on Reke. I just don't get that. Were your assertions true, he would have done better than $44M to be Pelicans 6th man. And you don't seem to give any consideration to the idea that it might have been a forced "Reke vs Cousins" call. Nobody... not one person on this board... can claim to know the locker room dynamics between Reke and DMC. It might have been untenable to try and keep them together. We just don't know.

Anyway, if I'm Vivek, I hire PDA and don't interview any internet chat board megaposters for the job. That's just me.

I shudder to think how this board would be going if he'd hired the Memphis guy... good lord.

+1 Completely Agree.

 

[roasthawg]

2. This type of take it or leave it contract is precisely the ONLY real bargaining power a small team like Sacramento has - to jump in front everyone else and to force the FA to sign it before he has time to shop around and use said contract as leverage. In negotiation you can be decisive or you can let the other party jerk you around, you seem to think the later is a good option; I don't.

Good point... very possibly the route we're gonna go here. Throw out big money right away but with a very short timetable.

 

[pshn80]

As I've said before, I have no problem with any moves the FO has made. No way do I want Ellis on the roster on opening day. My qualifications for having this view? I have been a fan of the Sacramento Kings for as long as anyone else in the world. I don't like and I don't want Ellis but I can live with whatever happens. If I were in charge I would rubber stamp the whole setup from owner to the last assistant coach. Now, I'll just hope Ellis doesn't chose us.

 

[Padrino]

Why do you act like the Kings will not pursue another big name FA? The next one could be Paul George, Rajon Rondo, Shane Battier, Tim Duncan, etc; so who knows?




1. Iggy was not attainable. No way. Not when he turned down serious money from a much better team (Denver) to sign elsewhere.

2. This type of take it or leave it contract is precisely the ONLY real bargaining power a small team like Sacramento has - to jump in front everyone else and to force the FA to sign it before he has time to shop around and use said contract as leverage. In negotiation you can be decisive or you can let the other party jerk you around, you seem to think the later is a good option; I don't.

i'm sick of "who knows?" while this team twiddles it's thumbs, hoping and praying for something to work out, the rest of the league actually is being decisive, rather than pretending to be. the other bad teams are getting better, while the kings ask "who knows?"

who knows, maybe they'll get wiggins? maybe rajon rondo will sign here someday? maybe the kings will trade their cast-offs for a star? maybe, maybe, maybe. i don't know how some of you do it, concocting fantasy scenario after fantasy scenario while the team fails to compile useful assets, and threatens to see its single greatest asset walk out the door or demand a trade because he's tired of playing for a ****ty team...

 

[RussoTuristo]

You don't know who or what I am apparently.

Absolutely do not care.

I am likely "smarter" than the great majority of people in NBA front offices by any traditional measure.

Somewhere there is janitor and lifelong fan who is better at assessing talent than 75% of NBA GMs, and probably me too.

 

[Padrino]

Seems good to me regardless of who follows in potential FA candidates. The signal is sent for whomever and whenever. People have to know you're not going to be jerked around. It's a good move.

it's false machismo. whether they flex their supposed negotiating muscles or not, the kings have zero bargaining power as a franchise coming off seven straight losing seasons in an undesirable small market. kings fans might not like it, but the team has to wine 'em and dine 'em. they have to roll out the red carpet for free agents, toss big numbers at them, make them feel like their career was meaningless before sacramento entered the picture, and even then, it probably won't be good enough...

it's just the way it is, and no amount of "signals" you send is going to change that. nba players are, by and large, a needy bunch. they want to feel wanted, and if they get the sense that a franchise prefers not to play ball with free agents, why bother negotiating with such a team when they can make millions somewhere else with more amenities? send the message that you intend to keep all free agents at arm's length, and it's just the monta ellis's that will coming knocking on your door, the guys in need of image rehabilitation, who don't have any options...

 

[beb0p]

i'm sick of "who knows?" while this team twiddles it's thumbs, hoping and praying for something to work out, the rest of the league actually is being decisive, rather than pretending to be. the other bad teams are getting better, while the kings ask "who knows?"

who knows, maybe they'll get wiggins? maybe rajon rondo will sign here someday? maybe the kings will trade their cast-offs for a star? maybe, maybe, maybe. i don't know how some of you do it, concocting fantasy scenario after fantasy scenario while the team fails to compile useful assets, and threatens to see its single greatest asset walk out the door or demand a trade because he's tired of playing for a ****ty team...

The Kings got better this off season. Not doubt about that. How much better remains to be seen but they definitely got better. Better passing, shooting and deeper bench. And they've done it without mortgaging their future like trading away first round picks and remaining flexible salary wise.

You want to talk about concocting a fantasy? Iggy signing with the Kings, that's a fantasy.

And what's not a fantasy? The Kings having a more balanced line-up and a couple of players away from being a very good team. Look ahead two years, I think the Kings will be a very different team then.

 

[jalfa]

2. This type of take it or leave it contract is precisely the ONLY real bargaining power a small team like Sacramento has - to jump in front everyone else and to force the FA to sign it before he has time to shop around and use said contract as leverage. In negotiation you can be decisive or you can let the other party jerk you around, you seem to think the later is a good option; I don't.

this bothers me, for the simple reason that I don't believe it to be a tenable position in this league. if you're going after an impact free agent, said free agent will always have other options and he'll always want to weigh those (and be asked by his agent in no uncertain terms to do so). sending a message that you don't have the patience to wait for a decision will not fly and that you're going to play hardball when you have so few things in your favour in the first place weakens your position to the point where actually being a reasonable destination for any free agent of actual impact calibre will stay the hell away.

also, I don't for a single second believe that setting a precedent was the actual reason behind pulling the offer, mainly because it's a really, really stupid reason.

 

[dude12]

It's not blind faith "because he is an NBA gm" or "because he's a rich guy". It is reasoned faith based on Vivek's labored and exhaustive search process, his penchant for hiring successfully (Forbes interview), PDA's background as one of the top guys in the Nuggets regime, and the overall complexion of this ownership/coaching group.

In the same breath some of you guys scoff at the notion that PDA's NBA pedigree and Vivek's overall successful track record should be taken into account, you claim great authority for yourselves based on ... I dunno... post count? Or what?

What I don't get is how some of you don't think a reasonable person could take an alternate point of view on Reke. I just don't get that. Were your assertions true, he would have done better than $44M to be Pelicans 6th man. And you don't seem to give any consideration to the idea that it might have been a forced "Reke vs Cousins" call. Nobody... not one person on this board... can claim to know the locker room dynamics between Reke and DMC. It might have been untenable to try and keep them together. We just don't know.

Anyway, if I'm Vivek, I hire PDA and don't interview any internet chat board megaposters for the job. That's just me.

I shudder to think how this board would be going if he'd hired the Memphis guy... good lord.

+2 Completely agree. Atta boy. Well said. Some posters have an incredibly inflated view of themselves for some reason and because the FO has chosen to go in a different direction regarding Tyreke Evans, every move by the FO is meant with disdain and belittled by said forum members....to the point that the FO's and owners credentials are attacked. SMH.

 

[Padrino]

The Kings got better this off season. Not doubt about that. How much better remains to be seen but they definitely got better. Better passing, shooting and deeper bench. And they've done it without mortgaging their future like trading away first round picks and remaining flexible salary wise.

You want to talk about concocting a fantasy? Iggy signing with the Kings, that's a fantasy.

And what's not a fantasy? The Kings having a more balanced line-up and a couple of players away from being a very good team. Look ahead two years, I think the Kings will be a very different team then.

yeah, yeah, passing and shooting. offense, offense, offense. but better? i remain wholly unconvinced. defensively, the kings actually got worse in the backcourt (i hardly thought that was possible heading into this offseason). and they've done nothing yet to shore up their defensive issues in the front court. they have added one defensive role player at the SF position, but mbah a moute may or may not project out to be a long-term starter, because with the loss of tyreke evans, there is now no one in the starting unit who can create shots off the bounce. and if vasquez/mclemore are the future at PG/SG, then the kings need to bring in a penetrator at SF...

more balanced line-up? perhaps on offense, if you're uninterested in getting to the rim (a necessary quality in a playoff team), but if the roster had remained unchanged they were still only "a couple of players away from being a very good team." that's all i've been hearing for years now. just a couple more of the right kinda players. and they never come. just more shooting. more offense. little attention to the defensive side of the ball. oh, and you can't make the claim that iggy signing with the kings was a fantasy. they were involved in active negotiations, and PDA pulled the offer. so we don't know if he was seriously considering it or not. and we'll likely never know...

 

[Padrino]

this bothers me, for the simple reason that I don't believe it to be a tenable position in this league. if you're going after an impact free agent, said free agent will always have other options and he'll always want to weigh those (and be asked by his agent in no uncertain terms to do so). sending a message that you don't have the patience to wait for a decision will not fly and that you're going to play hardball when you have so few things in your favour in the first place weakens your position to the point where actually being a reasonable destination for any free agent of actual impact calibre will stay the hell away.

also, I don't for a single second believe that setting a precedent was the actual reason behind pulling the offer, mainly because it's a really, really stupid reason.

thank you. there remains some practical sense at kf.com...

 

[King-Da-Yah]

+2 Completely agree. Atta boy. Well said. Some posters have an incredibly inflated view of themselves for some reason and because the FO has chosen to go in a different direction regarding Tyreke Evans, every move by the FO is meant with disdain and belittled by said forum members....to the point that the FO's and owners credentials are attacked. SMH.

I have never considered anyone who states opinions, backs them up with concise proofs, and who are also confident in their convictions to be people who are "inflated". If it were not for people like Brick and padrino, we would be victims of the deadly groupthink (coming to decisions too quickly, without weighing all options) with the new FO and like it or not, and whether you notice it or not, that is blindly following. The people who play devils advocate are crucial in communication.

Not saying that is what people are doing, blindly following whatever FO does that is, I'm just simply suggesting that it is a valid concern that we should have, as any business and customers of that business should be wary of this. It's human nature to go with the herd, so i dont see it stopping anytime soon, but don't lose sight of what your gut and heart tell you.

 

[HndsmCelt]

The Kings got better this off season. Not doubt about that. How much better remains to be seen but they definitely got better. Better passing, shooting and deeper bench. And they've done it without mortgaging their future like trading away first round picks and remaining flexible salary wise.

You want to talk about concocting a fantasy? Iggy signing with the Kings, that's a fantasy.

And what's not a fantasy? The Kings having a more balanced line-up and a couple of players away from being a very good team. Look ahead two years, I think the Kings will be a very different team then.

I have taken a "wait and see" attitude toward PDA and while I severely question some of his moves, I am still waiting to see if there was method to the madness. But NO ONE can say we got better this off season at this point, we have not played a single game yet and it will be the record that acts as the objective measurement of improvement. But for me to give PDA credit for improving the team we will need to see at LEAST a 43 win season. Why? If you look back at last season game by game there were at LEAST 10 if not 15 games where we could/should have won were it not for the incompetence of Keith Smart. We also had a very young and immature team (especially the starting 5) so you would expect simple maturity to result in 5-10 more wins. So simply bringing in a good coach should result in a record of 43-53 wins. I am not sure where you see the better shooting cumming from (Landry maybe?) The deeper bench would seem to be more the effect of diluting talent in the starting 5 but I guess that remains to be seen in action. As for not trading the future. I don't think we CAN trade our first round pick at this point since we already owe next seasons (protected at 13).

I agree Iggy was probably never coming here anyway.

I am not sure we have a more balanced line up, it seems to me we got a lot weaker on defense, but again the final arbitrator will be our record.

 

[jpsls]

i'm sick of "who knows?" while this team twiddles it's thumbs, hoping and praying for something to work out, the rest of the league actually is being decisive, rather than pretending to be. the other bad teams are getting better, while the kings ask "who knows?"

who knows, maybe they'll get wiggins? maybe rajon rondo will sign here someday? maybe the kings will trade their cast-offs for a star? maybe, maybe, maybe. i don't know how some of you do it, concocting fantasy scenario after fantasy scenario while the team fails to compile useful assets, and threatens to see its single greatest asset walk out the door or demand a trade because he's tired of playing for a ****ty team...

It seems like they have been decisiveness this off season. Just because you don't like their moves does not mean they playing the "who knows game." They brought in guys with veteran presence and passing ability, so that right there is trending in a different direction.

Tyreke is in his 5th year and people still want to play the "who knows" game with him. He's not a PG. Accept it.

 

[roasthawg]

So simply bringing in a good coach should result in a record of 43-53 wins.

Wow!! And I thought I was being too optimistic hoping for 35 wins!! =D

 

[jpsls]

I have taken a "wait and see" attitude toward PDA and while I severely question some of his moves, I am still waiting to see if there was method to the madness. But NO ONE can say we got better this off season at this point, we have not played a single game yet and it will be the record that acts as the objective measurement of improvement. But for me to give PDA credit for improving the team we will need to see at LEAST a 43 win season. Why? If you look back at last season game by game there were at LEAST 10 if not 15 games where we could/should have won were it not for the incompetence of Keith Smart. We also had a very young and immature team (especially the starting 5) so you would expect simple maturity to result in 5-10 more wins. So simply bringing in a good coach should result in a record of 43-53 wins. I am not sure where you see the better shooting cumming from (Landry maybe?) The deeper bench would seem to be more the effect of diluting talent in the starting 5 but I guess that remains to be seen in action. As for not trading the future. I don't think we CAN trade our first round pick at this point since we already owe next seasons (protected at 13).

I agree Iggy was probably never coming here anyway.

I am not sure we have a more balanced line up, it seems to me we got a lot weaker on defense, but again the final arbitrator will be our record.

A good coach is not going to add 10-15 wins on pure coaching ability alone. Let's get that out of the way when determining if the moves will be successful.

 

[Kingster]

it's false machismo. whether they flex their supposed negotiating muscles or not, the kings have zero bargaining power as a franchise coming off seven straight losing seasons in an undesirable small market. kings fans might not like it, but the team has to wine 'em and dine 'em. they have to roll out the red carpet for free agents, toss big numbers at them, make them feel like their career was meaningless before sacramento entered the picture, and even then, it probably won't be good enough...

it's just the way it is, and no amount of "signals" you send is going to change that. nba players are, by and large, a needy bunch. they want to feel wanted, and if they get the sense that a franchise prefers not to play ball with free agents, why bother negotiating with such a team when they can make millions somewhere else with more amenities? send the message that you intend to keep all free agents at arm's length, and it's just the monta ellis's that will coming knocking on your door, the guys in need of image rehabilitation, who don't have any options...

That's a reach. If the Kings FO telling the Iggy agent that they are cancelling their offer because it's being shopped to get him to another desirable team is equated to "a message you intend to keep all free agents at arm's length", that's ridiculous. We should just give them a nice carpet so they can walk all over us. In fact, I'd say it's Maloofian weak. Thank God we don't have that jelly-belly weakness at the top of this organization anymore.

 

[HndsmCelt]

A good coach is not going to add 10-15 wins on pure coaching ability alone. Let's get that out of the way when determining if the moves will be successful.

It will if you are replacing a particularly incompetent coach. Seriously go back, game by game heck even look at the game threads on here.

 

[HndsmCelt]

A good coach is not going to add 10-15 wins on pure coaching ability alone. Let's get that out of the way when determining if the moves will be successful.

2005-2006 44 wins
2006-2007 33 wins
Only major change Adelman replaced by Mus

 

[Capt. Factorial]

If you are a Reke true believer you gotta HATE this off season, but if not...

I see.

I do, however, find it fascinating that one is always so willing to cast one's opponents as zealots, but never at all considers placing that label on oneself.

 

[jpsls]

2005-2006 44 wins
2006-2007 33 wins
Only major change Adelman replaced by Mus

I guess losing Bonzi had nothing to do with that.

 

[jaysoonii]

Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
Source: ATL will not do sign-&-trade for Monta Ellis or Brandon Jennings. ATL will either match Bucks' offer to Jeff Teague or let him walk

 

[kingsnation]

I guess losing Bonzi had nothing to do with that.

Bonzi wasn't worth 11 wins. 3 or 4 maybe, if that.

The drop-off from Adelman to Musselman is the reason for 11-less wins.

 

[kingsnation]

It will if you are replacing a particularly incompetent coach. Seriously go back, game by game heck even look at the game threads on here.

You're absolutely right. Replace Smart last year with a half-decent coach and our W-L record looks dramatically different.

Which, again, is really stupid to let Reke go w/o giving him a chance with a real coach and system.

 

[jalfa]

That's a reach. If the Kings FO telling the Iggy agent that they are cancelling their offer because it's being shopped to get him to another desirable team is equated to "a message you intend to keep all free agents at arm's length", that's ridiculous. We should just give them a nice carpet so they can walk all over us. In fact, I'd say it's Maloofian weak. Thank God we don't have that jelly-belly weakness at the top of this organization anymore.

that is just a terribly misguided view. sorry, but seriously, be realistic. did you see the insane amount of recruiting teams, real successful teams, like Dallas, Houston, GSW and even the *ohsoproud* Lakers went through to get Dwight Howard? do you remember LeBron's free agency circus? and you're telling me a bottom-dweller like us, in a state with as high an income tax as California and none of the big city benefits other teams have going for them can afford to play hardball? really?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

No way man... this is NBA 101, lol. It's like wondering if a math major can figure out what the square root of 4 is. It's laughable... the entire league is based around these concepts. Everyone understands which cities players wanna go to, which coaches they wanna play for, and the fact that having a winning roster will go a long way to bringing better players in.

C'mon guys... at least keep it real. Try to follow along and critisize/applaud based on what might actually be the reasons for our moves here. =D

Oh man, if only running an nba team was so simple... you'd be competing against half wits rather than some of the best minds in the business with multiple decades worth of experience running million or even billion dollar businesses. Sorry man, this is the basics you're talking about here... PDA is well aware of the situation here in Sac when it comes to the desire or lack thereof of big name fa's to play here.

If the above statements were even remotely true, then why is it that, on the regular, 45-50 percent of the teams in the league have losing records? And, more to the point, why is it always the same 45-50 percent? If these guys were all as smart/good at their jobs as you claim they are, wouldn't there be more parity? If the whole "He's a GM, and you're not, therefore he must be smart/qualified, and you're not" paradigm were true, then explain why it is that, year in and year out, the same 12-14 teams make the playoffs, with the occasional cameo appearance by some interloper or other, and the same 9-10 teams go five, six, seven, eight years without making the playoffs?

I've said this before, and I feel like it bears repeating, from time to time, it's not that people feel as though specific posters here are blowing it out their *** when they say they could be a GM that's pejorative, it's the corollary sentiment that seems to more or less go like this: "The 60 ****s who are currently holding down these jobs (GM and head coach) are the only ones on earth capable of holding down the jobs," which also seems to invariably be followed up by "everyone who posts on a message board is a blithering idiot, who couldn't possibly hold down those jobs." That's the part that's ridiculous, almost to the point of being offensive.

I know that it's the thing to just dismiss the opinions of people online, and call them "internet tough," or "internet smart," but that can, and often does, go too extreme in the opposite direction. It's not like this place is 4Chan, or Reddit, or even RealGM: there's a significant percentage of intelligent people on KF.com, many of whom hold advanced degrees, as high or higher than many, if not all of the general managers in the league. I mean, we're not all working the register, or slinging hash to make a living around here: there are doctors who post here. Lawyers who post here. Teachers, engineers, journalists. People who have succeeded in business. The math alone says there's probably at least two people who post on this message board qualified to run an NBA team... TTBOMK, there's no university in the world handing out PhD's in basketball; there's nobody doing the job right now with any special qualifications that "the little people" can't get. The very idea strains credulity, even the military doesn't want recruits to be that dogmatic.

Frankly, even the people whom, allegedly, are actually qualified don't always seem that impressive: the season before last, the Charlotte Bobcats won seven games all season. Seven, out of sixty-six. I've never coached organized basketball on any level, and I'm reasonably sure that I could coach an NBA team to four wins, just by accident. Isiah Thomas literally, literally, put an entire league out of business, and then got another job. He then nearly ran an NBA team into the ground, and was rewarded with yet another job. I could put an entire league out of business: what sort of special skills are required to bankrupt a league? You mean to tell me that you see a guy at the helm of a team that posts back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back sub-30 win seasons, and you think that it's ridiculous to even suggest that a guy off the street could do a better job? How smart do you have to be to do a ****ty job?

 

[jcwkings]

Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
Source: ATL will not do sign-&-trade for Monta Ellis or Brandon Jennings. ATL will either match Bucks' offer to Jeff Teague or let him walk

So who does that leave? Atlanta out, Mavs presumably out. Charlotte?, if Ellis agrees to come at $8 or $9 million i would do it in a second. It's an instant talent upgrade and a value contract that can be easily moved.