Warriors post-game discussion
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Davcid West is a really goodf offensive player. Not much at anythkng else and I wouldn't want him as my PF, but he is absolutely a guy who can flat beat you.
Marion is not however. Marion really is a hustle player, and it has shown in his stats ever since he engineered his divorce from Nash. Jason is obviously a much different player and a full position up, but its the same idea. Right now his game really does remind me of Lee more than anyone else I can immediately think of -- unfortunately part of the reason for that is the lack of defensive ability. But its still of a quality NBA player -- a guy who is always either going to be a starter or at worst a 6th man. Its just not of a star.
*I will of course leave the fudge factor of having not seem him much this preseason to know exactly where he's at, but I was "in Vegas" to see the Lakers game, and there was nothing revolutionary there that would suggest he had morphed into a goto scorer.
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Kings Faithful
Starter
Evans
Martin
Casspi
Thompson
Hawes
Now that would be a young starting lineup...
Martin
Casspi
Thompson
Hawes
Now that would be a young starting lineup...
Plus it helps to have a coach who resembles Coach Popovich =p
Emma
Starter
And probably has an 80% chance of happening.
HighTopKicks
Bench
I haven't check the box scores but I believe it was Randolph. He and Mason went up for a rebound and Mason hit the floor hard. MM made two plays that stick in my mind.From what I heard, the GS player was none other than Mikki Moore.
Yep. Seems to work out better and comments don't tend to get lost in the shuffle quite so easily.
1. He was going for a dunk and May stuffed him.
2. Martin stole the ball and was going for the breakaway. MM was close enough to try and block Martin but he pulled up and Martin made the basket. I'm not sure why Mikey stopped, but my first impression was that it was out of respect for Martin. There was a possiblity that if MM tried to block the shot, he and Martin could have collided hard, and someone (Martin) might of been hurt. Maybe, I'm being to sentimental, but I don't think it was because MM was afraid or that he was too far behind to try the block.
I'd rather give MM the benefit of the doubt.
HighTopKicks
Bench
On Omri, he had some problems on defense. Once he turned his back, and his man cut to the basket for a lob and easy layup. He got could up and couldn't get thru some screens. Westphal called him over during breaks in the action for a talking too. And, one time PW called a timeout and really laid into Omri. Of course, PW called over Donte & Beno when they screwed up too.
Omri also played SG in a couple of those strange lineups. And, ended up with one of GW guards on him. Twice he tried to post up but accomplished nothing. Even got an offensive call against him.
Hawes was being rotated in and out along with Biedrins for matchup purposes. So, when Biedrins got pulled 1 min into the 4th, PW left Hawes on the bench.
As to Mason. It was pretty evident that when Martin left the floor the offense stagnated. So, with the 1st string on the court Mason's offense doesn't hurt the team. While his defense helps get stops that help protect the lead when the offense stumbles.
So, although Noc might help the 1st string offense. Mason's lack of offense would cripple the 2nd string. Noc and Beno may be the only legitimate shooters coming off the bench.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I'm sure you know I'm a big Jason fan. Not that I won't point out his flaws and the things he needs to work on. But from a philosophical point of view, if he could score 20 points and grab 20 rebounds every night, I don't think anyone would care how he did it. Especially if he's shooting 60% from the field. I'm not suggesting that he's going to do that. It would be nice, but not realistic.
The main thing is that he's showing improvement. I'm not going to let myself get too excited until I see the same thing in the regular season, and I see it night in and night out. I think the game is starting to slow down for him, and he's starting to just react without thinking. Just like you do when your car goes into a spin on a slippery road. It just comes with practice and experience. If he' dedicated enough and works hard, he can be a very good player in this league. He already has a very nice elbow jump shot, which most so called garbage players don't have. His post game is a work in progress, and that will determine how good he can be. He still has a lot of time..
HighTopKicks
Bench
If there is one weakness in JT's game it is that he doesn't create for himself other than tiping in his own misses.
I was at the game, and this was my impression. JT played 41min and got 20 & 20. But, in the 16 mins when Hawes wasn't on the floor JT was 4 and 4. And, the only time Biedrins was on the floor was when Hawes was on the floor. So, either JT needs to be with Hawes, or he needs Biedrins off the court.
Three of JT's shots were tip ins. The first was after he missed a layup and then misses a tip in , and then finally tipped it in for the basket. Four of his baskets were dunks, which were all assisted. And, his one outside jumper was assisted as well.
This isn't new for JT. 18% of his shots last year were Tip In's but he only made 50% of them. 18% of his shots were dunks, but 100% of those were assisted. As Brick said, JT isn't someone who can create his own shot.
Because of that you mignt want to call him a garbageman, but I like to think of him as a closer. No matter who starts the offense, JT is going to be around to close out the play if need be. But, the day that he can put the ball on the floor, drive to the rim and dunk with authority, I'll change his name to the All-Star.
I wasn't there so I don't know. I do know the person who told me has been a STH for years and years, has excellent seats in the lower level and can generally see things like that.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
We need to come up with a better term than "garbageman". Apologies to the waste removers, but it doesn't exactly convey a very valuable player on the floor. I wish everybody on this team was a garbageman if that player was one who hustled on every play, hit the floor for loose balls, took a charge now and again, and played some defense.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Thompson has exceptional lateral footspeed. He should develop into a very good defensive player over time.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Two things I liked about him in college was his lateral movement, and very good reflex action. Along with his size, footspeed and ballhandling skills that a lot of big men don't have, he was an enticing package. His post skills however were raw, and he was strictly right handed. He had then, and still now, an inclination to always go to his right. But when you consider that he shot up from 6'3" or so to 6'11" in just under two years, one can understand his underdeveloped post skills.
As I've said before. If he can develop a good post game, and it is an IF, he could become a star in this league. Hell, you can become a star in this league just being what Bricky calls a garbage man around the basket, if, you can play defense. While he may never become a great shotblocker, there's no reason he can't at least average 1 to 1.5 blks a game once he develops the right technique and footwork.
This may be a small thing, but I've already noticed in the limited time we've had to see them, that Thompson now has his arms straight up in the air when defending a player in the post. Last year his arms were up, but angled out over the offensive player. An instictive thing to do when trying to block a shot. But you'll get called for a foul every time when the player goes up for his shot. Just that one small change will decrease the number of fouls called on him, and to a smaller degree, increase the number of offensive fouls he'll draw.
HighTopKicks
Bench
Your probably right. I couldn't find anything in the Play by Play to support my recollection of the play. I was sure the crowd boo'd from the time the play was replayed on the big screen until the player shot his FT's. But, no FT's were shot after a Mason loose ball foul.
I guess my feeble memory combine two different plays into one. My appologies.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Two things I liked about him in college was his lateral movement, and very good reflex action. Along with his size, footspeed and ballhandling skills that a lot of big men don't have, he was an enticing package. His post skills however were raw, and he was strictly right handed. He had then, and still now, an inclination to always go to his right. But when you consider that he shot up from 6'3" or so to 6'11" in just under two years, one can understand his underdeveloped post skills.
As I've said before. If he can develop a good post game, and it is an IF, he could become a star in this league. Hell, you can become a star in this league just being what Bricky calls a garbage man around the basket, if, you can play defense. While he may never become a great shotblocker, there's no reason he can't at least average 1 to 1.5 blks a game once he develops the right technique and footwork.
This may be a small thing, but I've already noticed in the limited time we've had to see them, that Thompson now has his arms straight up in the air when defending a player in the post. Last year his arms were up, but angled out over the offensive player. An instictive thing to do when trying to block a shot. But you'll get called for a foul every time when the player goes up for his shot. Just that one small change will decrease the number of fouls called on him, and to a smaller degree, increase the number of offensive fouls he'll draw.
I'll go out on a limb. I don't think there is a question of if Thompson is going to be a good defensive player. I just think it's a question of when. He's got the footspeed, he's got the work ethic, he's got the smarts. Maybe he gets it this year or his third year, but it will come. He and Reke are going be good to very good defensive players. I've already booked it.
Now we have to get Hawes in the average to good category, and we'll be talking...
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I'll go out on a limb. I don't think there is a question of if Thompson is going to be a good defensive player. I just think it's a question of when. He's got the footspeed, he's got the work ethic, he's got the smarts. Maybe he gets it this year or his third year, but it will come. He and Reke are going be good to very good defensive players. I've already booked it.
You're missing a couple of things that have to improve: 1) he's not very strong, surprisingly, for that body. Despite being 6'11" it doesn't seem he can bang with big centers. 2) his defensive awareness is very shaky; 3) he does not look very long out there -- limits a shotblocker; and 4) his timing is not great.
He's really quite bad defensively right now. I do agree that there is no reason for him to be this bad -- he's big enough and athletic enoguh and seemingly willing enough that he should at least be able to become an impediment, especially if he can bulk up and stop all of the silly bouncing aorund for fouls stuff. But as I've mentioned many times before, especially at Jason's age guys who are going to be actual intimiators are normally already intimidating. He may simply lack the instincts and length to be more than solid in there.
K
Kingsguy881
Guest
Beno might have done a decent job running the offense (I still could never be convinced he is more effective at it than Evans), but the main problem, THE MAIN PROBLEM WITH THIS KINGS TEAM LAST YEAR, was defensively. At this point, I am caring less and less about how well the offense is ran. The Kings will be able to score points, efficiently, sloppily, luckily, you name the way and they can do it.
When Beno comes in the game, the penetration, the dribble drive, the drive and kick, these things become wide open for the other team. You should have seen Monta's eyes light up when he saw Beno guarding him. I think the whole "can Evans run the offense" question is tired and misguided. We don't need to be so damn focused on how well the offense is ran if we can't stop anybody on the other end. Its tired people. But if Evans can minimize penetration, which I have seen him do with my own eyes, then it will help this team out 10x more than someone who can run this offense to perfection but can't eliminate the perimeter defense issues we have had ever since DC was traded. (That includes Rubio too, BTW)
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Arby's Roast Beef
Starter
Agree with the general sentiment that JT has what it takes to be a reliable defender, but that's about the extent of it. He's already 23, so let's echo Brick's sentiment that normally players his age have already shown glimpses of defensive intimidation. Last year he was showed an insane ability to be super foul prone and amazingly that only got worse as the season went on--normally if you're this foul prone on defense that's accompanied by blocks, and in JT's case it wasn't. Intimidation and shotblocking aren't in the cards. But what he does have is a nice PF frame with a good mobility/athleticism combination, so if he invests on his defense and lets the game speed down we'll see better positional/rotational D. I'm not sold yet.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Shotblocking aside, defense is about doing the little things, and its a rare player that comes into the NBA out of college, and plays good defense. There's a learning process. Thompson has had only one year in the NBA. You know it wasn't that long ago that all players entering the NBA were 21 or 22 years old. Stockton, Malone, Jordan, Ewing, etc. were all seniors. Stockton and Malone both played close to 20 years in the NBA. My god, were acting like Thompson is an old man.
Bricky wants to criticize Thompson for not being big or strong enough to match up with the big centers in the league. Well guess what. He's not a center, he's a PF, and thats how I judge him. The fact that he has to play out of position isn't his fault. But to say that he's not strong enough because he can't keep Oden from throwing his big butt into him just isn't a fair judgement. I doubt that West, Millsap, Love, or even , Mr. No Defense Stoudemire would have much luck keeping Oden or Shaq, or Yao, or even Brynum from backing them down.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I know exactly how important a garbageman type player is to a team. I reffered to JT as a hustle/garbage type player after what others had said. I meant he has been referred to a clean-up type player, which he has been a number of times on this board. And I didn't disagree with that. JT definately isn't a garbage player.
Now, in my post after the game, I said after watching that game, that he is the most talented garbage player I've ever seen. Don't read into that too much because it was my impressions of a single game against a very non-physical warriors frontline.
However, if you are going to compare JT's talent level to that of Justin Williams(not sure you are), I would completely disagree. Personally, I think JT is MUCH better than Williams, and 10 yrs from now the stats won't even be close. As of right now, their stats aren't close. Also, I think JT can develop into a great pick& roll pf who will also get a number of points by hustling and getting offensive boards. He'll never be an iso, back to the basket type of pf like Duncan, but, IMO, he has too much talent to be considered just a "garbageman" or "hustle" type player.
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Im defending Hawes. Many you are bashing his lack of a post game. But i think he makes up with his activness around the hoop- I saw it entirely different.
Hawes DOES tend linger too far out, but the one thing that Hawes EXTREMLY well is use his size around the hoop. He was easily the most active kings play on the board that night. Becuase golden state actually had to find hawes on every rebound....that left leaving JT with 20 baords. He is the only kings player that can average a double double this season.
*one side note. Brokman came in and matched the entensity of the game. Golden State was playing scrappy down low (becuase of the lack of calls by replacement refs). But when Brockman came in, he came in ready to throw some elbows. Kudos to his aggressivness. A HUGE plus.
Hawes DOES tend linger too far out, but the one thing that Hawes EXTREMLY well is use his size around the hoop. He was easily the most active kings play on the board that night. Becuase golden state actually had to find hawes on every rebound....that left leaving JT with 20 baords. He is the only kings player that can average a double double this season.
*one side note. Brokman came in and matched the entensity of the game. Golden State was playing scrappy down low (becuase of the lack of calls by replacement refs). But when Brockman came in, he came in ready to throw some elbows. Kudos to his aggressivness. A HUGE plus.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
The irony of your statement about Duncan is thats exactly how he's percieved. The truth is, he really doesn't take the many shots with his back to the basket. Most of his shots come from outside the post. I don't have the percentage stats on hand at the moment, but I'll see if I can find them. Or perhaps the Capt will beat me to it. All I know is that I was surprised. Its all about image and perception.
Its sort of like the player that comes into the NBA as a bad shooter, and that label sticks on him. Then your sitting there one night and he's burning your team for 50 points, and your saying to yourself, I thought this guy couldn't shoot. Times change, and so do people...
6th
Homer Fan Since 1985
The truth is, he really doesn't take the many shots with his back to the basket..
I've never seen him take any shots with his back to the basket. He always turns around.
Sorry, but that statement struck me as really funny. Can you imagine what Pop would do if his star players started taking trick shots like that?
Nope, that would be me, this time.
57% of his FG attempts are jumpers. Dunks and tip-ins account for a total of only 5%.
http://www.82games.com/0809/08SAS17.HTM
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
You can't really trust those 82games stats in that regard -- they have always been whack. I'm serious about this one. I didn't even raise them when I saw that query because they are so notoriously confusing. I think the essential problem is that they count anything outside of the paint, even if its a post move, as a "jumper". Hence when Sheed posts up on the left block for the turnaround jumper, that's not an inside move, that's a "jumper". Which makes the whole distinction valueless under their numbers. Just for example:
Duncan:
57% jumpers 43% inside
Amare:
55% jumpers 45% inside
Boozer:
53% jumpers 47% inside
Miller:
66% jumpers 34% inside (SAC)
54% jumpers 46% inside (CHI)
Hawes:
52% jumpers 48% inside
Thompson:
46% jumpers 54% inside
Moore:
46% jumper 54% inside
Diogu:
56% jumpers 44% inside
and of course Sheed:
89% jumpers 11% inside
Now those stats...well they do tell you something, but you kind of have to know the players involved to be able to translate into something meaningful. Sheed is one of the most potent post players of the last decade, and yes, he has always taken far too many jumpers and whatnot, but he has never taken 89% of his shots as jumpers. Ever. The probelm is that his favored post positons are too far out for 82 games to count as "inside", so he turns into a jumper machine. Hawes is a toughguy who works the psot all day. Miller gets traded and plays more inside ball than Amare etc. I don't know what the cutoff is for "jumper" by 82games' reckoning, but its really too close. The only people who get credit for being true inside players are the really big center -- Dwight, Shaq, Yao -- but even Yao is credited wiht 40% jumper 60 inside. Suffice it to say that 40% of Yao's shots are not facing jumpers, whatever the numbers say. More likely he posted 12 feet out rather than 10 or some such for his turnaround. And then of course everybody ends up clumped int eh same egenral region, wiht no account at all for how they got there. A hustle player looks just like a post player. A guy with a turnaround jumper looks just like a facing shooter.
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Yea that was kind of confusing... having watched Duncan play it's obvious he takes his share of outside shots, but majority of them are on the block when he is trying to give his man a different look - if he's not banking it in he fakes, spins and lays it up off the glass. It's been his move for 10 years. Guy makes his living in the paint. Amare on the other hand, is a transition big that has a really good shooting stroke, and plays within the offense. He is not a "back them down" sort of guy. He's athletic, but you can't give him the ball with his back to the basket and let him make something happen. You can with Duncan. That's at least how I look at it.
It's actually a little worse than that, a couple of years ago I pointed out that the whole system was purely range-based, and if you were shooting from a side, it was easy to make "inside" shots that were out of the paint. That made it impossible to use 82games stats to know who really led WRT "points in the paint."
They are kind of crummy, and I'm sorry that there are no more useful figures to post.
In my post that you quoted, I said "With the possible exception of shot blocking, JT is a much better player than Justin was."
Hey, I didn't say that he'd hit his ceiling already. Dwight Howard takes out his team's garbage, too, but it doesn't mean that's the only thing he's capable of. Right now, JT is mostly a hustle+garbageman type, but that can change. He's not limited by size, the extent to which he's limited by athleticism, motivation, smarts, the abilities of his coaches, etc., remains to be seen. We'll know more in a couple of years.
Right now, I'm pretty doubtful that he'll ever make it to all-star level, but that's just my somewhat tentative impression of him as a rookie, and I'd prefer to be wrong.
And even if he doesn't improve very much, that's okay. I think he's better than our average starter now, and he's also good enough to come off the bench for a very strong team. Which means that, whatever is in our future, we need him.
EDIT: Oh, and P.S. --
Hmmm... per game, or season total, not very close, JT has gotten a lot more minutes. But per 48?
Rookie year stats, per 48
-----------Pts---------O Reb---------T Reb----------FG%-------------Blk
JW-----18.8----------7.32-------------16.6-----------61.7---------------2.3
JT-------18.9---------4.93--------------12.7-----------49.4--------------1.2
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