Tyreke's lack of progression

[IfAt1st]

Obvious agenda thread.

What does "agenda" mean on here?

Cause the way you guys are using it, it sure looks like it means "a post (or opinion) I don't like".

If I started labeling KF's posts with the word "agenda" every time they overlooked Reke's weaknesses and instead blamed someone/something else, I doubt if it would be allowed.

BTW - Reke has not made his teammates better.
That is undeniable at this point in his career.

And before Tyreke came along here, that was one of the ONLY criteria for a PG in the NBA - I've heard it trumpeted loud and long since the days of Magic Johnson.

But now, the goalposts for a PG seem to have shifted - now the PG gets a pass if the team doesn't do better when he's running the show.

As I said elsewhere, I guarantee that unless Tyreke learns a jumpshot, the Kings will not be a competitive team with him being the PG who handles the ball the most.

A guy like Jeremy Lin is WAY more important to an NBA team than a guy like Tyreke. That's been known in the league for quite some time, and the sooner this "Tyreke-as-PG" experiment is OVER, and the front office recognizes this, and gets a real playmaker on this team, the Kings are not going to go deep into the playoffs.

 

[Hoovtrain]

Can't give references but he knows basketball. I'll let someone else apply the punchline if they wish.

Oh yeah. Duh. Forgot what your profession used to be

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

BTW - Reke has not made his teammates better.
That is undeniable at this point in his career.

This is a conclusion.

In law school we are taught that conclusions without actual analysis makes a weak argument. Not only have you asserted a conclusion as a fact without any supporting evidence, but you confirm my agenda allegations by bringing up cases like Jeremy Lin which don't come close to matching the situation that Reke deals with.

Even better, there is statistical evidence which refutes your conclusion that you proudly trumpet around as fact: According to 82games, The team without Tyreke is a net -7 for the year. That is second highest on the team after DMC (not including Honeycutt who has hardly seen time on the court).

Besides statistics, anecdotal evidence hardly supports your claim either. I'm not exactly sure what Tyreke has to do to better spoonfeed the teammates. These guys are missing open shots, or passing up open shots to take tougher ones. Thats NOT on Tyreke. Thats on the team.

 

[Kingsguy881]

What does "agenda" mean on here?

Cause the way you guys are using it, it sure looks like it means "a post (or opinion) I don't like".

If I started labeling KF's posts with the word "agenda" every time they overlooked Reke's weaknesses and instead blamed someone/something else, I doubt if it would be allowed.

BTW - Reke has not made his teammates better.
That is undeniable at this point in his career.

And before Tyreke came along here, that was one of the ONLY criteria for a PG in the NBA - I've heard it trumpeted loud and long since the days of Magic Johnson.

But now, the goalposts for a PG seem to have shifted - now the PG gets a pass if the team doesn't do better when he's running the show.

As I said elsewhere, I guarantee that unless Tyreke learns a jumpshot, the Kings will not be a competitive team with him being the PG who handles the ball the most.

A guy like Jeremy Lin is WAY more important to an NBA team than a guy like Tyreke. That's been known in the league for quite some time, and the sooner this "Tyreke-as-PG" experiment is OVER, and the front office recognizes this, and gets a real playmaker on this team, the Kings are not going to go deep into the playoffs.

Nobody is overlooking Tyrekes weaknesses, however certain folks such as yourself sure are overblowing them.

Name me the last team that won a championship with you're 'pure pg' running all around setting people up. And don't say Dallas because they were led more by Jason Terry than Jason Kidd. Ready, go!!! Good luck.

 

[The_Jamal]

Do you guys REALLY think that ridiculously exaggerating points in a discussion help elevate the thread?

It's known as a lazy, digressing aspect of persuasive discussion and it's embarrassing.
Please stop.

I for one would love to have an excellent discussion referring to Kings basketball. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem possible when the "anti-Tyreke" side refuses to acknowledge the true problems with Tyreke and the team

No one is denying Tyreke still has a ways to go as a PG and being a team leader. But to ignore the strides he's made under Smart is simply foolish. To ignore his supporting cast is one of the worst in basketball is foolish. And to ignore he's yet to scratch the surface of his potential at 22 years old is even more foolish. If he were 25-26, then we could be having these discussions about Tyreke not being a franchise player as history has proven that a player around that age will essentially be his talent and skill level in the NBA.

 

[macadocious]

Has anyone considered that maybe there were a lot of times Tyreke could have passed the ball but chose not to because who was open had a worse chance at making the shot than his crazy layup attempts?

 

[Hadlowe]

Nobody is overlooking Tyrekes weaknesses, however certain folks such as yourself sure are overblowing them.

Name me the last team that won a championship with you're 'pure pg' running all around setting people up. And don't say Dallas because they were led more by Jason Terry than Jason Kidd. Ready, go!!! Good luck.

Not in the anti-Tyreke camp, but that's just kind of funny. Name me one time that this thing has happened, except for the really obvious time that it just happened, because that time doesn't count for some reason.

 

[Hadlowe]

Obvious agenda thread. I hate fans passing off their distaste for a certain players' style as "analysis" when its OBVIOUS that the team's problems lie elsewhere. Lets just call it what it is: People wanted Rubio and his "exciting" style of play. Reke's style, devastating and punishing as it is, is "boring".

So now Reke is responsible for John Salmons' shooting woes? He's responsible for Garcia airballing open threes and in general looking like he's aged a century? He's responsible for Hickson's stone hands? He's responsible for Outlaw being Outlaw? I don't see exactly how much more its possible for Reke to spoonfeed these scrubs before they look like NBA players.

No, not exactly. However, Hickson does tend to receive dropoff or wraparound passes on the drive when he fumbles them. My guess is that he's generally fairly surprised that he got the ball at all. That isn't an excuse for bobbling the pass, but it does speak to his unfamiliarity with the team offense.

I'm fairly resigned to the fact that the team won't have a coherent offensive system until next season at the earliest. I'm holding off judging anyone (except Salmons) until then. Of course Hickson will be gone next season due to an expiring team option that the team won't pick up. C'est la vie.

 

[kennadog]

Has anyone considered that maybe there were a lot of times Tyreke could have passed the ball but chose not to because who was open had a worse chance at making the shot than his crazy layup attempts?

Maybe Tyreke hasn't thought that, but I sure have.

 

[Kingsguy881]

Not in the anti-Tyreke camp, but that's just kind of funny. Name me one time that this thing has happened, except for the really obvious time that it just happened, because that time doesn't count for some reason.

Oooooooooooooooooooooookay?

 

[pshn80]

How much has our poor outside shooting percentage been the result of forced or poor shot selection or shooting when not neally open? Is it greater than other teams? I suspect it is, significantly. If so, why is it so?

 

[gunks]

Late to the party, but I'd blame Rekes lack of progression entirely on Westphal (ok, and Tyreke himself.).

That guy was easily the worst possible coach for a youth movement team ever. He didnt teach jack, and worse, seemed to foster and encourage Reke's bad habits. As far as I'm concerned this is Reke's rookie season, with all the ups and downs you'd expect a young player learning the ropes to have. And that applies to the rest of our team too. We have a bunch of really young players, who havent had ANY coaching since coming to Sac. Smart is starting to turn things around, but I dont think he's that good a coach, just a mediocre one...But after all the scrubs we've had as HC around here he seems like Adelman.

 

[Hadlowe]

Late to the party, but I'd blame Rekes lack of progression entirely on Westphal (ok, and Tyreke himself.).

That guy was easily the worst possible coach for a youth movement team ever. He didnt teach jack, and worse, seemed to foster and encourage Reke's bad habits. As far as I'm concerned this is Reke's rookie season, with all the ups and downs you'd expect a young player learning the ropes to have. And that applies to the rest of our team too. We have a bunch of really young players, who havent had ANY coaching since coming to Sac. Smart is starting to turn things around, but I dont think he's that good a coach, just a mediocre one...But after all the scrubs we've had as HC around here he seems like Adelman.

And, in the cases of our one and done guys, probably never. Tyreke is an impressive physical specimen. Fast, good handles, and a great finisher at the rim even through traffic. He has never in his life needed to be subtle in his play because he was just too much man for his opponents. A lot of ink, virtual and otherwise, has been spilled on the drawbacks to the current youth ball scene in the US, and Tyreke is as much a victim of that system as Westphal. He has had a man's body for years now, but was matched up against mewling youths and dominated them through sheer physical ability. Rubio, otoh, has been playing against grown men for years now, and it shows in his game.

 

[Glenn]

Oh yeah. Duh. Forgot what your profession used to be

I almost forgot also until I heard the plaintive cries of despair of a long suffering Kings Fan. The pain is probably getting worse as this thread progresses.

 

[Glenn]

Maybe Tyreke hasn't thought that, but I sure have.

It's called judgment. Doing what is best for the team. Trying to win. Etc., etc.

 

[Glenn]

How much has our poor outside shooting percentage been the result of forced or poor shot selection or shooting when not neally open? Is it greater than other teams? I suspect it is, significantly. If so, why is it so?

I recently reviewed shootong percentages. Only one player is shooting at a percentage considered predictable for his position and that is JT. He is over 50%. Then the percentages get quite low. Most are at 40% or lower. I believe I have heard the rest of the league is having it's problems but ignoring that, a team wide shooting problem is hard to explain unles you start bringing up the things like the compressed season, short camp, the likely higher level of fatigue than usual. It is ironic that I was watching a brief NBA thing on a few days in the life of Blake Giffen (sp?) and he mentioned his level of energy several times. It's an issue with him so why not with others like our team? This is a tough year on the players in many ways and the shooting problems are multicausal if there is such a word.

The desire to make an explanation to be simple is innately human with some people having more trouble seeing complexities than others.

 

[Glenn]

Late to the party, but I'd blame Rekes lack of progression entirely on Westphal (ok, and Tyreke himself.).

That guy was easily the worst possible coach for a youth movement team ever. He didnt teach jack, and worse, seemed to foster and encourage Reke's bad habits. As far as I'm concerned this is Reke's rookie season, with all the ups and downs you'd expect a young player learning the ropes to have. And that applies to the rest of our team too. We have a bunch of really young players, who havent had ANY coaching since coming to Sac. Smart is starting to turn things around, but I dont think he's that good a coach, just a mediocre one...But after all the scrubs we've had as HC around here he seems like Adelman.

This is simple minded and ezactly the way I see it. Had to put it that way to follow my previous note.

 

[upinsmoke]

Consider this Evans is going to be eligible for a contract extension shortly and in all likelyhood is going to ask or command a large contract. Personally I would prefer to have the bulk of the cap be used in the frontcourt. Cuz is obviously an anchor there and JT is solid but IMO were still missing more frontcourt talent to become contenders.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Consider this Evans is going to be eligible for a contract extension shortly and in all likelyhood is going to ask or command a large contract. Personally I would prefer to have the bulk of the cap be used in the frontcourt. Cuz is obviously an anchor there and JT is solid but IMO were still missing more frontcourt talent to become contenders.

I've been thinking about this and quite frankly the way he's played his 2nd and 3rd year, I wouldn't give him a large extension. Too big of a risk. Unless he has a GREAT year next year, I'd let him walk in 2014. That's partly why I advocate trading him now while you can still get some value in return.

 

[Bricklayer]

Ah Kings fans...gotta love them complaining about how long the rebuild has taken while simultaneously advocating extending it another 5 years.

 

[Glenn]

Ah Kings fans...gotta love them complaining about how long the rebuild has taken while simultaneously advocating extending it another 5 years.

I needed a laugh. Thanks. To tell you the truth, I doubt very much that many people really understand what the theory behind a rebuild is. I sure didn't understand it at first. Now the "trade Evans" notes make me shake my head. Get yourself in a position to have a successful rebuild and then dismantle it. Wow! We are lucky enough to be in the position we are in without screwing it up.

 

[Dime Dropper]

I've been thinking about this and quite frankly the way he's played his 2nd and 3rd year, I wouldn't give him a large extension. Too big of a risk. Unless he has a GREAT year next year, I'd let him walk in 2014. That's partly why I advocate trading him now while you can still get some value in return.

Just want to quote this so it's on record.

 

[Kingsguy881]

Just want to quote this so it's on record.

Me too!!!!!

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

The last page of this thread has been completely unnecessary. Re-opening with a warning to all to keep to the topic at hand. No mention of that nonsense, either.

 

[upinsmoke]

Rebuilding consists of the draft picks, FA and trades. As of now I dont feel comfortable extending Tyreke or making a him a cornerstone of the team just to incomplete of a player. Don't get me wrong i HOPE im wrong and coach smart can work things out but as of now I gotta call it like I see it.

 

[Dime Dropper]

Rebuilding consists of the draft picks, FA and trades. As of now I dont feel comfortable extending Tyreke or making a him a cornerstone of the team just to incomplete of a player. Don't get me wrong i HOPE im wrong and coach smart can work things out but as of now I gotta call it like I see it.

You wouldn't extend Tyreke? Is this SERIOUSLY what some people have come to?

 

[Kingsguy881]

Rebuilding consists of the draft picks, FA and trades. As of now I dont feel comfortable extending Tyreke or making a him a cornerstone of the team just to incomplete of a player. Don't get me wrong i HOPE im wrong and coach smart can work things out but as of now I gotta call it like I see it.

Huh? A good defender, rebounder and rim attacker that needs to work on his jumpshot, decision making and court awareness in his 3rd year at 22? Good Lord, this is getting ridiculous. Look, you don't throw away a talent like him the way you and certain people keep suggesting. If you can trade for equal talent then sure, but this garbage in this thread has gone way too far.

 

[upinsmoke]

Just my opinion and like i stated above I hope I am wrong but its not even about Tyreke Evans its about the 2 spot. I never bealived in giving a 2 large contracts unless he is a mega-talent because it's the easiest position to fill. Tyreke is indeed a unique player but will he take us to the promise land? I sure hope so...

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I can't understand why people wouldn't want to keep Evans, but it doesn't so much bother me that they wouldn't. I think that they're wrong, and I think that time will bear that out, but it is what it is, they're certainly not bad people for thinking like that. And, they could easily turn out to be right. Only time will tell.

I won't pretend to understand their motivations, but my best guess is that people who don't like Evans just don't like scoring guards. Whether they be Evans, himself, or anybody who fits into that general Hal Greer/Gail Goodrich/Bernard King/Jamaal Wilkes/Allen Iverson kind of mold.

 

[Glenn]

Just my opinion and like i stated above I hope I am wrong but its not even about Tyreke Evans its about the 2 spot. I never bealived in giving a 2 large contracts unless he is a mega-talent because it's the easiest position to fill. Tyreke is indeed a unique player but will he take us to the promise land? I sure hope so...

I don't think Tyreke will take us to the promised land nor did I expect him to do that. I DO believe some people believed that and now have been brought back to reality. Heck, LeBron hasn't brought any one to the promised land. Why should we expect so much from Tyreke? I think the guard position as well as other positions are a shambles. I can't affix blame as it seems everyone on the team is underplaying this year except perhaps JT of all people.

We got JJ for what I thought were obvious reasons and he has been horribly disapointing. Etc., etc. Tyreke is a unique talent but cannot play properly without "something." Maybe it's a different system. Maybe it's a different running mate. Maybe it's a different SF. Maybe it's a lot of things. But I think you build around Tyreke and Cousins and try to make it work. Tyreke is our second leading scorer. 0.2 pts behind Thornton. He is our leading guy with assists for whatever that is worth. He rebounds at a good rate for the team and great for his position. He hits 80% of his free throws. He can do some things that are difficult to equal with other players in the league. He has holes in his game. The trick is to make use of the strengths and somehow work around the holes. I don't think you give up on the project.