Tyreke is NOT happy

Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#241
#241
Gilles said:
You buy him out. Kings are close to salary floor. Bought out salary still counts as part of team salary. Kings are at $44 million without Thompson (at least $6 million) and likely top-6 pick (above $2,5 million).
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Sure thing, you want to pass around the hat, or should I? :p

I think the problem people are hinting at is that in the NBA there is a minimum salary threshold each team has to meet (call it the Donald Sterling rule). If Salmons is on the team we can count his contract as part of the minimum salary and only have to pay a total of $45mil or whatever the minimum threshhold will be next year. If we however made the smart, good, BASKETBALL decision, and either amnestied him, or waived him, then his salary ($8.5mil) would no longer count against the minimum salary requirements, and then the Maloofs would have to pay at least $45mil in other salaries in order to meet the minimum level, AND $8.5mil to John Salmons.

Its one of those areas where having broke owners is just harmful.

Hey, you're in Moscow right? Any chance Putin would like to buy an NBA team and compete against Prokhorov in another field...? :p
 
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T

Tyndel

Bench
#242
#242
The Hammer said:
Yeah I get a little worked up sometimes. You can't really become a "dominant guard" in the league if you are playing SF. By just like... going to the gym with your ball.

That he WAS a dominant guard, and now is moved to SF, because 1) we don't have a good one and 2) Smart refuses to play Donte there. Is totally ridiculous.

If Smart thinks Tyreke "lacks enough guard abilities" he should seek professional help. Tyreke was a few weeks past 20 when he started his first NBA game. His talent is through the roof. You don't move that to SF, you develop it... at guard... in games.

It's so ridiculous that it reminds me of he Maloofs, in fact. Perhaps they're the ones insisting IT start. But then Smart can't sit Marcus because he goes to church with his mom or something.

In a sensible world, you'd start Tyreke at lead guard, give him the ball, tell him to attack, put MT next to him to hit catch and shoot threes, start Donte or Salmons at the three, and have IT play 28 mins a night off the bench. This can be balanced with tossing it into Cuz to let him work down low, or even going through the high post and letting Cuz work one on one or find cutters.

Does anybody agree with me that this should more or less be the template? (minor tweaks aside).
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Agree aside from starting Salmons. I would start Twill and then Cisco and Donte off the bench aside from machups like Durant where length is required. Salmons doesn't have a place on this team anymore Twill can handle pass and drive better and is a better all around defender cisco can help defend better then anyone on the team when the SF isn't the biggest threat and shoot better and Donte has the length for individual defense.

But you can't just change the lineup and say go play thats what WP did the last 2 years you also need to have set plays. And why don't we set screens and have anyone move at all when Cousins gets the ball? I would rather we ran something there and got passes and turnovers until he figures it out. We are totally ignoring one of Cousins Strengths just like we are ignoring Rekes. In a system reke and MT can play together. In a pickup game they have a harder time.
 
Section 101

Section 101

All-Star
#243
#243
Bricklayer said:
Sure thing, you want to pass around the hat, or should I? :p

I think the problem people are hinting at is that in the NBA there is a minimum salary threshold each team has to meet (call it the Donald Sterling rule). If Salmons is on the team we can count his contract as part of the minimum salary and only have to pay a total of $45mil or whatever the minimum threshhold will be next year. If we however made the smart, good, BASKETBALL decision, and either amnestied him, or waived him, then his salary ($8.5mil) would no longer count against the minimum salary requirements, and then the Maloofs would have to pay at least $45mil in other salaries in order to meet the minimum level, AND $8.5mil to John Salmons.

Its one of those areas where having broke owners is just harmful.

Hey, you're in Moscow right? Any chance Putin would like to buy an NBA team and compete against Prokhorov in another field...? :p
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Amnestied players salaries still count towards the minimum cap since they are still being paid.

It would more likely mean the team would not pick another player to replace him and they would stay at the 13 player minimum or only take on minimum player contracts.
 
Capt. Factorial

Capt. Factorial

ceterum censeo delendum esse Argentum
Staff member
#244
#244
Gilles said:
You buy him out. Kings are close to salary floor. Bought out salary still counts as part of team salary. Kings are at $44 million without Thompson (at least $6 million) and likely top-6 pick (above $2,5 million).
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OK, so buying him out has the advantage that he still counts towards the salary floor. But it still means he has to get paid. And I don't see why completely broke owners who don't care about winning are going to pay one lousy player to go away just so they have to pay another lousy player a little more to take his place. They'll keep the lousy player they have now, because he's cheaper in total.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#245
#245
Section 101 said:
Amnestied players salaries still count towards the minimum cap since they are still being paid.

It would more likely mean the team would not pick another player to replace him and they would stay at the 13 player minimum or only take on minimum player contracts.
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Do they? I mean the whole point of the amnesty thing is that the players no longer count toward the salary CAP, so do they really count on the low end (minimum salary) but not th hgih end (salary cap)? Seems a hard sell to the players union.
 
Capt. Factorial

Capt. Factorial

ceterum censeo delendum esse Argentum
Staff member
#246
#246
Section 101 said:
Amnestied players salaries still count towards the minimum cap since they are still being paid.
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Are you sure about that? I thought the point of this amnesty is that they don't count against your salary cap, but it would logically seem that they then also wouldn't count against the floor. For instance, that's what GS did amnestying Charlie Bell to get his numbers off of the cap to make the offer to DeAndre Jordan. This is unlike the previous CBA's amnesty which was only a tax-purposes amnesty and did continue to count on the salary cap. Too bad Larry Coon still hasn't completed his 2011 CBA FAQ. It would be nice to check up on that sort of thing.
 
P

Prince_XY

Starter
#247
#247
The Hammer said:
Yeah I get a little worked up sometimes. You can't really become a "dominant guard" in the league if you are playing SF. By just like... going to the gym with your ball.

That he WAS a dominant guard, and now is moved to SF, because 1) we don't have a good one and 2) Smart refuses to play Donte there. Is totally ridiculous.

If Smart thinks Tyreke "lacks enough guard abilities" he should seek professional help. Tyreke was a few weeks past 20 when he started his first NBA game. His talent is through the roof. You don't move that to SF, you develop it... at guard... in games.

It's so ridiculous that it reminds me of he Maloofs, in fact. Perhaps they're the ones insisting IT start. But then Smart can't sit Marcus because he goes to church with his mom or something.

In a sensible world, you'd start Tyreke at lead guard, give him the ball, tell him to attack, put MT next to him to hit catch and shoot threes, start Donte or Salmons at the three, and have IT play 28 mins a night off the bench. This can be balanced with tossing it into Cuz to let him work down low, or even going through the high post and letting Cuz work one on one or find cutters.

Does anybody agree with me that this should more or less be the template? (minor tweaks aside).
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I agree with you and I actually think that those who oppose your line of thinking do not have enough knowledge of how to win basketball games. They just want to see circus and not really into wanting in making the Kings a significant team in the NBA.

The Kings struck gold when they got an almost complete 2-dimensional player in Evans. A 20/5/5 ROY should tell us fans how good a player we've got in Evans. Not even Durant, who was given the same freedom to dominate the ball was able to do that amazing fit during his rookie year and both played with an almost equally bad supporting cast. You just don't marginalize that kind of player in favor of a good midget PG.
 
gunks

gunks

Hall of Famer
#249
#249
Bricklayer said:
Sure thing, you want to pass around the hat, or should I? :p

I think the problem people are hinting at is that in the NBA there is a minimum salary threshold each team has to meet (call it the Maloof rule). If Salmons is on the team we can count his contract as part of the minimum salary and only have to pay a total of $45mil or whatever the minimum threshhold will be next year. If we however made the smart, good, BASKETBALL decision, and either amnestied him, or waived him, then his salary ($8.5mil) would no longer count against the minimum salary requirements, and then the Maloofs would have to pay at least $45mil in other salaries in order to meet the minimum level, AND $8.5mil to John Salmons.

Its one of those areas where having broke owners is just harmful.

Hey, you're in Moscow right? Any chance Putin would like to buy an NBA team and compete against Prokhorov in another field...? :p
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Fixed. :p
 
G

Gilles

Starter
#250
#250
Amnestied contracts go away completely. They don't affect the cap in any way. For Kings amnesty clause has another problem I mentioned before - contract is paid in full, no matter options or partial guarantees. So in addition to lowering team salary, possibly even below team salary floor, Kings will have to pay $6 million more than for buyout. You can probably even shed like $2-3 million more since bayouts are usually lower than guaranteed salaries. I just can't imagine Maloofs going for amnesty considering the cost.
P.S. Putin is interested in alpine skiing. Is basketball played on snowy slopes? :p
Prokhorov went for Nets only because buying soccer clubs went out of style among Russian oligarchs. It's not like he has good results so far, beware what you wish for. :D
 
P

Prince_XY

Starter
#251
#251
cstorm said:
Do you have to insult IT to defend Evans? IT may not deserve all the hype he is getting, but he definitely doesn't deserve the name calling.
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By NBA standard, IT is relatively a midget. So, that is not an insult and should be seen as a complement especially that I stated he is a "good" midget PG. But of course, I also believe he is not good enough as the primary guard if we're thinking of winning more games and being a significant playoff team.
 
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Section 101

Section 101

All-Star
#252
#252
Capt. Factorial said:
Are you sure about that? I thought the point of this amnesty is that they don't count against your salary cap, but it would logically seem that they then also wouldn't count against the floor. For instance, that's what GS did amnestying Charlie Bell to get his numbers off of the cap to make the offer to DeAndre Jordan. This is unlike the previous CBA's amnesty which was only a tax-purposes amnesty and did continue to count on the salary cap. Too bad Larry Coon still hasn't completed his 2011 CBA FAQ. It would be nice to check up on that sort of thing.
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http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33976/what-we-know-about-the-amnesty-provision

This was still during negotiations so it could have changed.

The salaries of amnestied players will continue to count toward a team’s minimum salary requirement. This season teams will need to spend at least 80 percent of the salary cap, and there was speculation that Washington would be reluctant to amnesty Rashard Lewis and his $21.1 million salary due to this requirement. But with Lewis’ salary counting toward the $46.44 minimum even if they let him go, the team now has no such concerns.
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bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#253
#253
Capt. Factorial said:
How are we going to get rid of Salmons? Owners who don't have the money to pay $3.25M of predevelopment costs can't just amnesty a player owed north of $16M over the next three years whose salary helps them meet the minimum.
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I don't disagree that there's certainly reason to doubt how much money the Maloofs are willing to spend. I could speculate that the reason the Maloofs don't want to pay the redevelopment fee's, is because they need that money to help absorb Salmons contract. Let me apply logic to this, although logic seems to be lost on the Maloofs. Salmons is a good player, but a bad fit. And no matter how you cut it, whether you put him at SF, or SG, he's coming off the bench. So odds are his minutes are reduced as a result, and maybe his minutes are nonexistent. But whether you amnesty him, or keep him, you still have to pay him.

But! If you amnesty him, you can spread out his contract over a longer period of time, and therefore reduce your yearly costs in the short term. Plus, if someone else decides to pick him up, whatever amount they agree to pay him, is deducted from what you owe him. So if we owe him 8 mil a year, and someone is willing to pay him (Outlaw fee's) 3 mil a year, then the Kings are only stuck with 5 mil a year. Now that might not be the perfect scenario, but it is productive in terms of helping the team move forward.

I'm sure of course that the Kings will try their best to trade him. Contrary to what we might think locally, Salmons is still considered a good player around the league. An overpaid player perhaps, but still a good player. We just need to find another sucker. Hell, if the Bobcats had Salmons, he'd be one of the best players on their team. He does sort of remind me of Michael Jordan at times, don't you think? ;)
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#254
#254
Gilles said:
You buy him out. Kings are close to salary floor. Bought out salary still counts as part of team salary. Kings are at $44 million without Thompson (at least $6 million) and likely top-6 pick (above $2,5 million).
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Why buy him out when you can just amnesty him? Then none of his salary counts against the cap. I'd amnesty Salmons, and buy out Outlaw if you need extra bucks.
 
G

Gilles

Starter
#255
#255
I still can't believe Kings claimed Outlaw to have him for 4 seasons at $3 million. Who was going to offer him this much once he cleared waivers? And no, no one will claim Salmons off waivers for $3 million if he's amnestied.
 
sidney

sidney

Starter
#256
#256
bajaden said:
Why buy him out when you can just amnesty him? Then none of his salary counts against the cap. I'd amnesty Salmons, and buy out Outlaw if you need extra bucks.
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right. Plus, with 2 years left on his contract there is a pretty good chance someone bids 1.5 - 2M per season for 2 years for Salmons. He's not horrible as a bench support guy at that price. Maloofs would save that amount.
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#259
#259
Section 101 said:
Amnestied players salaries still count towards the minimum cap since they are still being paid.

It would more likely mean the team would not pick another player to replace him and they would stay at the 13 player minimum or only take on minimum player contracts.
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It was my understandng that amnestied salaries don't count against the cap. If they do, then whats the point of amnesty? Unless, you mean they count against the minimum cap only, in a minimum salary sense, but not against the max cap as far as signing players.
 
G

Gilles

Starter
#260
#260
bajaden said:
Why buy him out when you can just amnesty him? Then none of his salary counts against the cap. I'd amnesty Salmons, and buy out Outlaw if you need extra bucks.
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Buyout - $16,6 million, most likely even less since no one is buying out for full amount, so say $15 million. For 2014/15 season when Kings have to extend Cousins and might finally have to go over the salary cap his salary will count $903,000 towards team salary.
Amnesty - $22,6 million, that Kings will have to pay in full if Salmons clears waivers. It also sheds $8 million from team salary which means Kings will have also to pay additional money to someone to reach team salary floor.
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#261
#261
Prince_XY said:
By NBA standard, IT is relatively a midget. So, that is not an insult and should be seen as a complement especially that I stated he is a "good" midget PG. But of course, I also believe he is not good enough as the primary guard if we're thinking of winning more games and being a significant playoff team.
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With all due respect, I doubt IT himself would take kindly to you calling him a midget, regardless of how you spin it. You made good points. You don't need to throw in the midget inference. My rule is, if you wouldn't say it to their face, then don't say it here.
 
sidney

sidney

Starter
#262
#262
Gilles said:
Buyout - $16,6 million, most likely even less since no one is buying out for full amount, so say $15 million. For 2014/15 season when Kings have to extend Cousins and might finally have to go over the salary cap his salary will count $903,000 towards team salary.
Amnesty - $22,6 million, that Kings will have to pay in full if Salmons clears waivers. It also sheds $8 million from team salary which means Kings will have also to pay additional money to someone to reach team salary floor.
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I believe all team options are declined when a player is amnestied. Meaning that final year 14-15 = 1M, not 7M. So the total should be the same between buyout and amnesty unless I'm mistaken
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#263
#263
Gilles said:
Buyout - $16,6 million, most likely even less since no one is buying out for full amount, so say $15 million. For 2014/15 season when Kings have to extend Cousins and might finally have to go over the salary cap his salary will count $903,000 towards team salary.
Amnesty - $22,6 million, that Kings will have to pay in full if Salmons clears waivers. It also sheds $8 million from team salary which means Kings will have also to pay additional money to someone to reach team salary floor.
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I understand all that, and I realize were hampered by the fact we don't think the Maloofs will spend the money necessary. And, if thats the scenario we have to abide by, then we might as well end all conversation on the fourm. I'm not going to do that until they prove you right. Which they may do. To agree that the Maloofs only interest is to just barely make the minimum salary requirement, is to accept that we have little or no hope of ever being competitive. And if thats the case, I might as well become a Clipper fan since they're closer than the Kings to where I live.

So I'm going to go with what I think they should do. And ridding the team of Salmons salary through amnesty is the smart thing to do if you looking for salary cap space to improve the team. I might add that you left out the fact that Salmons can sign with another team, and that amount is reduced from what the Kings owe him. So the total amount owed him, could end up being a push with the buyout approach. Either way, the team is allowed to spread out the amount owed over a longer period of time.
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#265
#265
Gilles said:
I still can't believe Kings claimed Outlaw to have him for 4 seasons at $3 million. Who was going to offer him this much once he cleared waivers? And no, no one will claim Salmons off waivers for $3 million if he's amnestied.
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And you know this how? Salmons is a far better player than Outlaw, and I'm sure there are many teams that would like to have him at a reduced price. And 3 mil is certainly a reduced price. But regardless of price, someone will pick him up, and whatever that amount is, and I believe he has to paid whatever the league minimum is for a player based on years in the league, it will be reduced from the amount owed by the Kings.

On Outlaw, we're in total agreement. Wasted money!
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#267
#267
Prince_XY said:
By NBA standard, IT is relatively a midget. So, that is not an insult and should be seen as a complement especially that I stated he is a "good" midget PG. But of course, I also believe he is not good enough as the primary guard if we're thinking of winning more games and being a significant playoff team.
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Dude, "midget" is not an appropriate term. Please cease and desist. Thanks!
 
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