Tyreke is NOT happy

[The Hammer]

Pretty weak statistical backing. 3 less minutes and 2 less shots a game doesn't mean a whole lot in an argument of Reke being "marginalized. And you just critizised someone from using stats before and after his position change when you just did the same thing. If anything, it shows that when Reke is attacking the rim and getting to the line is when he's and we're at our best.

It goes back to the same argument of needing a jumpshot. Every single elite offguard we bring up (Kobe, Wade, Manu, etc) all can hit a 3 and have elite mid-range games. Since Reke can't do that, he gets lost in the offense at the 2-3 since his only offense is getting to the rim.

I'm a Reke supporter, and think he's being misused. But I must speak up here.

What has happened to the science education in this country? Even though I agree that Reke should be attacking more and have the ball in his hands more, you can't use these kinds of correlations to come to conclusions. Basic principle here: correlation does not prove causation. You can't assume what the causal factor is! Is Reke taking less shots and averaging less because we are losing. Or, are we losing because Reke is taking less shots? Alternatively, is there a third causal factor at play that is affecting both our w/l record and Reke's stats?

I think stats can be used effectively, but you have to build a much stronger argument than just pulling two trends and assuming one of them causes the other, or even that they are related. This is statistics 101 people. Now, you may wish to use some of these stats to support your observations, but the numbers alone mean literally nothing. And even if used in support, can never be taken as a final explanation. Too many confounding variables.

As I said, I still believe that if Reke was reunited with the ball that our team would be more effective. And no, he's not a ball hog or bad passer or selfish player. But all of that I'm basing on actually watching the games. If you can't see that when watching the games, lord have mercy on you.

When it comes right down to it, you just have to know what you are seeing.

 

[Larry David]

Kings made their own bed here. They let him do whatever he wanted for too long chasing 20-5-5 to sell tickets. They've never played him at his natural spots which is 2. And it's now hard to do because they've loaded the roster with 2s or quasi-2s.

They gave him too much rope, his misused some of it, and they are having a hard time getting it back.

 

[Bricklayer]

Kings made their own bed here. They let him do whatever he wanted for too long chasing 20-5-5 to sell tickets. They've never played him at his natural spots which is 2. And it's now hard to do because they've loaded the roster with 2s or quasi-2s.

They gave him too much rope, his misused some of it, and they are having a hard time getting it back.

One last time: Reke "chased" 20-5-5 because he was one of the few NBA caliber players on that entire ****ing roster. Ignoring Kevin, who got hurt and then just quit, there were two low level platoon type part time NBA starters (one of them, JT, is still here) and exactly one double figure scorer on the team other than Reke, and that was Landry for half a season, a half btw in which he put up the best numbers of his career next to Reke. As the 'he was chasing 20-5-5" thing just gets repeated ad nauseam with scarcely anybody stopping to think, I will AGAIN ask, WHO ELSE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE DOING THE SCORING? WHO??? Milwaulkee's backup PG? New Orleans backup PF?

 

[The Hammer]

One last time: Reke "chased" 20-5-5 because he was one of the few NBA caliber players on that entire ****ing roster. Ignoring Kevin, who got hurt and then just quit, there were two low level platoon type part time NBA starters (one of them, JT, is still here) and exactly one double figure scorer on the team other than Reke, and that was Landry for half a season, a half btw in which he put up the best numbers of his career next to Reke. As the 'he was chasing 20-5-5" thing just gets repeated ad nauseam with scarcely anybody stopping to think, I will AGAIN ask, WHO ELSE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE DOING THE SCORING? WHO??? Milwaulkee's backup PG? New Orleans backup PF?

That the frequency of Brick dropping f-bombs steadily continues to rise is a good indicator of just how much things are coming to a head with this franchise.

Brick, I'm with you on your earlier statement of if they **** this up I'm done. I think within the next 8-18 months this franchise is going through a mini make it or break it phase, and it's more than just with the owners, although if they were supplanted, things would likely turn around in a hurry.

 

[Glenn]

Kings made their own bed here. They let him do whatever he wanted for too long chasing 20-5-5 to sell tickets. They've never played him at his natural spots which is 2. And it's now hard to do because they've loaded the roster with 2s or quasi-2s.

They gave him too much rope, his misused some of it, and they are having a hard time getting it back.

He played SG last night and missed only one shot and that shot was blocked. Sum total of 22 pts. He shot no jump shots. He had no TOs. This was in 25 minutes.

One game proves nothing but this was suggestive. I am guessing but I think it is a reasonable guess that Tyreke is not comfortable at all attacking the rim from the SF spot but feels right at home as a SG. A different angle is involved. There have been other games where he has been listed as SF yet for part of the time played from the guard position and they put MT in the corner where any semi-brain dead coach would put a SF.

I was very happy with Tyreke's play last night and although perhaps most of the league could charge up the middle all the way to the rim against the Bobcats, this was a guy in his eliment.

The obvious argument against what I am insinuating is that the JV team for the Little Sisters of the Poor could have scored the way he did because this was the Bobcats and that's a very fair argument. He needs the paint open and for that to happen, he needs help from his GM. He needs outside shooters that need to be respected and GP started that by drafting Jimmer last year. Jimmer will improve. IT is a serious three point shooter and helps open up the paint. Surpirise, surprise. My problem has always been what to do with MT. Coming off the bench seems to make sense for me at the moment but packaging him with another King to trade for whatever position is weakest after the draft has always been a thought in my mind.

 

[swisshh]

The problem is most good teams don't give Tyreke the lane. They shut it off and his game self-implodes. You can hate on Smart, but he has been trying to get Tyreke to just take the midrange jumper when the defense gives it to him instead of staring at his defender and trying to fake him for a drive. It's something that Tyreke should learn but I've only seen him do it a couple of times.

 

[VF21]

The problem is most good teams don't give Tyreke the lane. They shut it off and his game self-implodes. You can hate on Smart, but he has been trying to get Tyreke to just take the midrange jumper when the defense gives it to him instead of staring at his defender and trying to fake him for a drive. It's something that Tyreke should learn but I've only seen him do it a couple of times.

Apropos nothing - I freaking hate the term "take what the defense gives you." To me that indicates a passive approach to the game. You don't see the Kobe Bryants or the Lebron James or the Michael Jordans of the game taking what the defense gives them. The truly great create their own shots, in spite of what the defense is trying to do.

With a legitimate outside threat on the court, fewer teams would be able to double Reke on a regular basis and he'd be in a better position to work inside and create his shots.

 

[Gary]

Short-sighted tunnel vision, symptomatic of this blundering franchise.

We say the same thing man.. Short sighted is forcing a player into playing a position (Either SF or PG) which he has no business playing at this point in his career. Evans is not a PG. Evans is not a SF.

 

[Npliam]

Apropos nothing - I freaking hate the term "take what the defense gives you." To me that indicates a passive approach to the game. You don't see the Kobe Bryants or the Lebron James or the Michael Jordans of the game taking what the defense gives them. The truly great create their own shots, in spite of what the defense is trying to do.

With a legitimate outside threat on the court, fewer teams would be able to double Reke on a regular basis and he'd be in a better position to work inside and create his shots.

That just isn't true. Defenders in the NBA can keep you out of the lane. Elite teams don't get beat because they give up layups. They get beat because they have to spend so much effort stopping you that you get open jump shots for your team. Great players are great because they can beat you in a variety of ways. Jordan scored a ton of points on a fade away jumpers. Teams had to give him the fade away because he could go by them if they didn't.

 

[hrdboild]

That just isn't true. Defenders in the NBA can keep you out of the lane. Elite teams don't get beat because they give up layups. They get beat because they have to spend so much effort stopping you that you get open jump shots for your team. Great players are great because they can beat you in a variety of ways. Jordan scored a ton of points on a fade away jumpers. Teams had to give him the fade away because he could go by them if they didn't.

Is it worth noting that both Kobe and MJ didn't have the fade-away jumper working with any kind of reliability until 4 or 5 years into their NBA careers?

 

[VF21]

That just isn't true. Defenders in the NBA can keep you out of the lane. Elite teams don't get beat because they give up layups. They get beat because they have to spend so much effort stopping you that you get open jump shots for your team. Great players are great because they can beat you in a variety of ways. Jordan scored a ton of points on a fade away jumpers. Teams had to give him the fade away because he could go by them if they didn't.

I don't think we're in disagreement. I think it might be the term. I reiterate that "take what the defense gives you" implies a passive approach, something the greats such as those I mentioned are clearly not known for. While Jordan might take those easy jumpers, he also didn't give up when there wasn't an easy shot available. He could create his own shot, which to me at least implies a more active approach to the game, and he was actively willing to get the ball to Pippen or whomever else might be open because of the coverage on him.

Again, it might just be my dislike of the term, which Jerry Reynolds uses at least 10 times a game. Considering I've watched the majority of games since the Kings came to Sacramento in 1985, you can imagine how many times over the years I've heard it.

 

[Gary]

Is it worth noting that both Kobe and MJ didn't have the fade-away jumper working with any kind of reliability until 4 or 5 years into their NBA careers?

Sure, it's worth noting, but it's also worth noting that in most cases you know when a player of that caliber is going to be a superstar. We shouldn't force unrealistic goals on Evans.

 

[Bricklayer]

You make Reke's lack of a jumper into a much larger issue than it already is when you play him off the ball. When a guy has the ball you have to play him. Even if he can't shoot you have to play him, because otherwise you are putting no pressure on the passer and he can see your whole defense clearly and beat you because of it. Its the same reason you waste a man having him jump around in front of an inbounds passer. Same way that if you don't pressure a passer he is much more likely to be able to throw an alley oop. Same reason people still guarded Rubio despite him shooting 35% or whatever.
Now you take that saem jumpshotless player and put them off the ball...think anybody is guarding Rubio off the ball?

 

[hrdboild]

Sure, it's worth noting, but it's also worth noting that in most cases you know when a player of that caliber is going to be a superstar. We shouldn't force unrealistic goals on Evans.

I agree with the second part, I'm not sure that I would agree with the first. I'm not old enough to remember Jordan as a rookie but I do remember Kobe and I thought he was going to be very good, but I didn't know he was going to be the all-world player that he is today. It takes years of sustained discipline to get to that level and I don't think you ever really know if a player has that in them or not until you see signs.

 

[Heuge]

We say the same thing man.. Short sighted is forcing a player into playing a position (Either SF or PG) which he has no business playing at this point in his career. Evans is not a PG. Evans is not a SF.

Evans is a guard, IMO. I dont care if you call him a PG or a SG. I believe this team is best served to find a way to force the other teams PG to match up with him. If that means we technically call him a PG, fine. Give me a guard that complements Evans well. Udrih was a start, but he couldn't defend a lightpost and lacked the size and athleticism to truly cause the mismatch. Jimmer, Marcus, IT, are all horrible complements to Tyreke for some of the same reasons why Beno was not viable. This is the biggest reason why I think Petrie's job should be in question.

 

[Npliam]

Is it worth noting that both Kobe and MJ didn't have the fade-away jumper working with any kind of reliability until 4 or 5 years into their NBA careers?

Sure it is. My response was simply pointing out that you can't just take what you are good at. You have to take what the defense gives you because defenses in the NBA can take away your best option.

 

[Section 101]

Is it worth noting that both Kobe and MJ didn't have the fade-away jumper working with any kind of reliability until 4 or 5 years into their NBA careers?

It's also worth noting that the rules of the time allowed defenders more leeway in guarding. Jordan would have averaged 40+ in todays game and gone to the line even more.

 

[bajaden]

Apropos nothing - I freaking hate the term "take what the defense gives you." To me that indicates a passive approach to the game. You don't see the Kobe Bryants or the Lebron James or the Michael Jordans of the game taking what the defense gives them. The truly great create their own shots, in spite of what the defense is trying to do.

With a legitimate outside threat on the court, fewer teams would be able to double Reke on a regular basis and he'd be in a better position to work inside and create his shots.

I wouldn't get too caught up in semantics. The difference between Kobe, Jordan, and Tyreke, is that they have other weapons at their disposal. You see, you really can't say that Kobe doesn't take what the defense gives him, and that he creates his own shot, and then say Tyreke would be able to do what he does, if he had teammates that could hit the outside shot, and therefore spread the floor. While that may be true, its not exactly Tyreke creating his own offense. He's getting help.

I'm a huge fan of Tyreke's! But if he wants to move to the next level, then he has to take his game to another level. And that means letting go of the old (not forgetting it) and embracing the new. All Tyreke needs to do is develop a good midrange jumpshot, and also learn how to post up properly. When was the last time you saw, Tyreke, a well muscled 6'5.6" player, with a 6'10" wingspan, post up anyone? He has a strength and size advantage on most guards in the league, and yet he doesn't take advantage of it.

What Tyreke does best right now, and not many players in the league can do what he does, is drive to the basket. And I'm certainly not advocating he stop doing that. I think he proved last night that against the right team, he can be a one man wrecking crew. But Tyrekes biggest weakness is his decision making. There are nights when he looks like a man running into a brick wall, but he just keeps running into it. Sort of like Cousins trying to dunk on Ibaka. Always thinking, the next time I'll get him. While his tenacity might be admirable, its also non productive, and it hurts the team. Its all about decision making, and picking the right spots to do what you do best.

But even on the worse night, you can still play defense. You can still get assists. You can still rebound. You'll also note, that in Cousins case, he has other weapons he can go to. Tyreke doesn't, and thats the problem in a nutshell. Its not a problem he can't solve. Hopefully this summer he'll be on his way toward that end.

 

[Tetsujin]

Is it worth noting that both Kobe and MJ didn't have the fade-away jumper working with any kind of reliability until 4 or 5 years into their NBA careers?

Hell, Kobe doesn't have that jumper working this season

 

[swisshh]

Apropos nothing - I freaking hate the term "take what the defense gives you." To me that indicates a passive approach to the game. You don't see the Kobe Bryants or the Lebron James or the Michael Jordans of the game taking what the defense gives them. The truly great create their own shots, in spite of what the defense is trying to do.

With a legitimate outside threat on the court, fewer teams would be able to double Reke on a regular basis and he'd be in a better position to work inside and create his shots.

But if the lane is shut off and continually attacking it results in bad misses and turnovers, then the defense has won. Kobe, Lebron and Jordan improved their outside shot. It is a necessity. It doesn't mean they became passive, it means they could be aggressive in more than one way.

 

[Bricklayer]

I wouldn't get too caught up in semantics. The difference between Kobe, Jordan, and Tyreke, is that they have other weapons at their disposal. You see, you really can't say that Kobe doesn't take what the defense gives him, and that he creates his own shot, and then say Tyreke would be able to do what he does, if he had teammates that could hit the outside shot, and therefore spread the floor. While that may be true, its not exactly Tyreke creating his own offense. He's getting help.

I'm a huge fan of Tyreke's! But if he wants to move to the next level, then he has to take his game to another level. And that means letting go of the old (not forgetting it) and embracing the new. All Tyreke needs to do is develop a good midrange jumpshot, and also learn how to post up properly. When was the last time you saw, Tyreke, a well muscled 6'5.6" player, with a 6'10" wingspan, post up anyone? He has a strength and size advantage on most guards in the league, and yet he doesn't take advantage of it.

What Tyreke does best right now, and not many players in the league can do what he does, is drive to the basket. And I'm certainly not advocating he stop doing that. I think he proved last night that against the right team, he can be a one man wrecking crew. But Tyrekes biggest weakness is his decision making. There are nights when he looks like a man running into a brick wall, but he just keeps running into it. Sort of like Cousins trying to dunk on Ibaka. Always thinking, the next time I'll get him. While his tenacity might be admirable, its also non productive, and it hurts the team. Its all about decision making, and picking the right spots to do what you do best.

But even on the worse night, you can still play defense. You can still get assists. You can still rebound. You'll also note, that in Cousins case, he has other weapons he can go to. Tyreke doesn't, and thats the problem in a nutshell. Its not a problem he can't solve. Hopefully this summer he'll be on his way toward that end.

Posting up is:

1) a rare skill in a guard
2) almost entirely coaching/scheme dependent. You don't just randomly decide to post if its not part of the offense.
3) He has a strength advantage over all PGs, over many SGs, and over few SFs. Now who has he been matched up with for months now?

Tyreke can start taking blame for not posting more when a) his coach is trying to post him against b) players his size or smaller. Every once in a while, including two games ago with a sequence at the end of the third against Harden, one of our idiot coaches will scribble something on the whiteboard and say hmm...wonder if we could post him? And do it for a possession or two. We have neer at any point in Reke's three years in the league stuck with it for any length of time. Reke's fault? Perhaps he is not a good enough post player in practice? Maybe. But its not like we've seen hardly ANY guard postups from anybody on our team over that span. Safest assumption has to be it simply has not been a part of our offense. And now he'd have to post up SFs, which just ain't happening.

Should Westphal have had him posting as a PG? Absolutely. But Westphal was an idiot and didn't beleive in silly things like plays.

 

[mac]

That just isn't true. Defenders in the NBA can keep you out of the lane. Elite teams don't get beat because they give up layups. They get beat because they have to spend so much effort stopping you that you get open jump shots for your team. Great players are great because they can beat you in a variety of ways. Jordan scored a ton of points on a fade away jumpers. Teams had to give him the fade away because he could go by them if they didn't.

And you know what elite offensive teams do? They set screens and run an offense, forcing the defense to spend so much effort chasing guys around that it leads to an open shot by making the defense move. In the first place, I don't see Tyreke getting the ball for these "open jumpshots" the defense is giving him. Heck, I don't see Tyreke getting the ball, period. But even if he did, it's not like they are wide open shots, more like the defender is giving him enough space to shoot. And if Tyreke takes that shot, will all Kings Fans be willing to accept it and not criticize him for taking the shot? Second of all, our offense sucks. We have about as many plays ran as Westphal did, just that we have better offensive players now. There is nothing in our offense that is even going to make the defense move, other than 1 on 1 penetration and kicking it out or passing to a cutting player.

I guess we have something like a chicken and egg thing. Tyreke Evans is not posting guys or playing a midrange game because he's stuck in the corner as SF, and he's stuck in the corner as SF because he didn't have a midrange game.

 

[hrdboild]

Hell, Kobe doesn't have that jumper working this season

You may be right. At this point, I can't stand watching the Lakers unless they're playing the Kings and even then it's painful.

 

[Lockehead]

One last time: Reke "chased" 20-5-5 because he was one of the few NBA caliber players on that entire ****ing roster. Ignoring Kevin, who got hurt and then just quit, there were two low level platoon type part time NBA starters (one of them, JT, is still here) and exactly one double figure scorer on the team other than Reke, and that was Landry for half a season, a half btw in which he put up the best numbers of his career next to Reke. As the 'he was chasing 20-5-5" thing just gets repeated ad nauseam with scarcely anybody stopping to think, I will AGAIN ask, WHO ELSE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE DOING THE SCORING? WHO??? Milwaulkee's backup PG? New Orleans backup PF?

Tyreke should've never been placed above the team. We should've worked as a unit. Reke would've naturally surfaced as our best player without a doubt. But there was no need to force the issue and give Reke the ball whenever he wanted it, and let him do whatever he wanted without accountability. He should've been kept within the bounds of the team. He's picked up some bad habits, and its hindered his development, and the Kings have been paying for it ever since. That's Westphal's fault. Now Smart is misusing him, so his problems are further muddled in the scheme of things in this team.

 

[Gary]

You may be right. At this point, I can't stand watching the Lakers unless they're playing the Kings and even then it's painful.

Sessions seems to have given them quite a life though in their play.

 

[Bricklayer]

Tyreke should've never been placed above the team. We should've worked as a unit. Reke would've naturally surfaced as our best player without a doubt. But there was no need to force the issue and give Reke the ball whenever he wanted it, and let him do whatever he wanted without accountability. He should've been kept within the bounds of the team. He's picked up some bad habits, and its hindered his development, and the Kings have been paying for it ever since. That's Westphal's fault. Now Smart is misusing him, so his problems are further muddled in the scheme of things in this team.

EGADS!!! Double Egads actually since I just typed this post out and then miss hit a key and lost the whole thing and have to start over. But my lord, that myth above is like the frickin' clap! It just spreads and spreads and no matter how many times you confront it it keeps coming back. Ok look, so so very tired of making this point, so please try to understand the numbers I am going to show you here, and next time somebody makes this silly Reke chasing 20-5-5 as a bad thing claim YOU can point these out insted of me and say to whoever, "well...not sure the numbers back up that claim":

So here, ONE MORE TIME (think its about 1,478 for me now):
Tyreke Evans 2009 PRE-All Star: 36.9min 20.3pts (.460 .261 .789) 4.8reb 5.2ast 1.6stl 0.5blk 2.9TO on 16.1FGA
Tyreke Evans 2009 POST-All Star: 37.7min 19.8pts (.452 .245 .677) 6.2reb 6.9ast 1.4stl 0.2blk 3.2TO on 16.4FGA

What were these bad habits he developed? What was this lack of accountability that suddenly popped up? I was not aware rebounding and assisting were team negatives. Perhaps we should try to ban those in the future. Scratch that, we already have.

 

[Lockehead]

EGADS!!! Double Egads actually since I just typed this post out and then miss hit a key and lost the whole thing and have to start over. But my lord, that myth above is like the frickin' clap! It just spreads and spreads and no matter how many times you confront it it keeps coming back. Ok look, so so very tired of making this point, so please try to understand the numbers I am going to show you here, and next time somebody makes this silly Reke chasing 20-5-5 as a bad thing claim YOU can point these out insted of me and say to whoever, "well...not sure the numbers back up that claim":

So here, ONE MORE TIME (think its about 1,478 for me now):
Tyreke Evans 2009 PRE-All Star: 36.9min (.460 .261 .789) 4.8reb 5.2ast 1.6stl 0.5blk 2.9TO on 16.1FGA
Tyreke Evans 2009 POST-All Star: 37.7min (.452 .245 .677) 6.2reb 6.9ast 1.4stl 0.2blk 3.2TO on 16.4FGA

What were these bad habits he developed? What was this lack of accountability that suddenly popped up? I was not aware rebounding and assisting were team negatives. Perhaps we should try to ban those in the future. Scratch that, we already have.

Not sure what you're trying to prove with the numbers. Care to clarify a bit?

You dont think Tyreke picked up some bad habits with the way Westphal played him?

 

[VF21]

And you know what elite offensive teams do? They set screens and run an offense, forcing the defense to spend so much effort chasing guys around that it leads to an open shot by making the defense move.

That's kind of what I was trying to say. It's not about "taking what the defense gives you" as much as "forcing the defense" into making an error and capitalizing on it.

Thank you.

 

[swisshh]

The Mike Brown superstar-offense is a pretty big reason Kobe's efficiency has dropped like a rock and Lebron left Cleveland without a ring.

 

[Gilles]

But if the lane is shut off and continually attacking it results in bad misses and turnovers, then the defense has won. Kobe, Lebron and Jordan improved their outside shot. It is a necessity. It doesn't mean they became passive, it means they could be aggressive in more than one way.

If the lane is shut off, there must be players shutting it inside the paint which means there must wide open shot available for someone else. Very often when you see Tyreke will try attacking in a second four other guys just stand there watching. Set the screen to get the shooter open, move your feet for Tyreke to have passing angle. It should be team play and more often than not it's 1-on-5.