Tyreke Evans.

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#61
Which parts do you disagree with?

It is true that teams know how to play against Tyreke this time around. The thing is, Tyreke isnt doing himself or the team any favors by doing the exact same thing he did last year. He knows the defense is loading up on him, yet he doesnt change his style of play. He does the same thing, stand at the top of the key and try to slash his way through. Coincidence or not, the top of the key is also where the PG usualy operates. The only reason that it was successful last year was because teams didnt know what to expect from the rookie. However it is a new season, the defenses has changed, but Tyreke hasnt.
Sorry, I guess I should have stated what I disagree with. As I said, I don't completely agree, which means that I agree with most of what you said. What I don't agree with is at the end of you post. You said you didn't think he was in a physical slump. I think he is. I think he has some physical problems, which just multiply his other problems. I also don't think it has anything to do with whether he's a PG or SG. Tyreke plays a certain way. Put what ever label you want on him, he's still the same player afterwards.

You said he needs to change his style of play. What style would you like him to change into to. Right now he's the focus of the defense. He has to figure it out. I do think the team can help him to some extent by using a different offense instead of this isolation, one on one offense. I think feeding Cousins the ball in the low post and having Tyreke making cuts when they double Cousins could get him some easy shots at the basket. I also think Tyreke needs to work on moving without the ball. Make some backdoor cuts. Even if he doesn't score he'll open up something for someone else. Anyway, we didn't differ that much.
 
#62
I dont know how much the ankles are bothering him, but i cant imagine it being that serious or else he wouldnt be playing. I think what were seeing, from a physical standpoint, is a slower Tyreke due to the weight he gained over the off season.

However i do think whethr or not he plays PG or SG is important. As of now he plays mainly at the top of the key; i believe this is due to him playing PG. This is easy and predictable for the defense to defend, and it also doesnt allow for much offensive options as the defense is spread pretty evenly from side to side.

If he goes to the SG, i wouldnt expect him to be at the top of the key. I imagine him to work in the high post where he can use his effective post up game, and also his effective face up game. This also leaves room for him to develop and use his jumpshot, and also allows him to take advantage of his dribbles/ driving and strength ability. Another good benefit is that he would no longer be working at the top of the key, which frees up the Pg position for another player. This opens up a variety of options as other players can be incorporated via that Pg. Tyreke wouldnt be the one making our offensive decisions, and at the same time he'll be developing and using what he does best. It also keeps the defense shifting, whereas if Tyreke was PG, the defense is standing there ready. If Tyreke assumes different positions on the court via being a SG, then itl lcause the defense to keep shifting which leads to more options.
 
#63
Sorry, I guess I should have stated what I disagree with. As I said, I don't completely agree, which means that I agree with most of what you said. What I don't agree with is at the end of you post. You said you didn't think he was in a physical slump. I think he is. I think he has some physical problems, which just multiply his other problems. I also don't think it has anything to do with whether he's a PG or SG. Tyreke plays a certain way. Put what ever label you want on him, he's still the same player afterwards.

You said he needs to change his style of play. What style would you like him to change into to. Right now he's the focus of the defense. He has to figure it out. I do think the team can help him to some extent by using a different offense instead of this isolation, one on one offense. I think feeding Cousins the ball in the low post and having Tyreke making cuts when they double Cousins could get him some easy shots at the basket. I also think Tyreke needs to work on moving without the ball. Make some backdoor cuts. Even if he doesn't score he'll open up something for someone else. Anyway, we didn't differ that much.
I agree with Lockehead's (I think it was him...) very insightful observation from earlier. This whole "I'm not a PG or SG, I'm a guard" thing is a copout. Tyreke needs to develop skills that would at least qualify him to be one of the two. His ability to get to the rim (which is currently diminishing) alone will not make him a superstar and will not lead the Kings to the promised land. He either needs to learn how to be a playmaker (currently he is a less-than-mediocre playmaker) and adopt some kind of a pass-first attitude, or at least ease up on the pass-as-a-last-resort attitude, or learn how to be effective off the ball and become primarily a dominant SG. Personally, I think the latter would be a much better fit for him. To be an elite playmaker, he needs to be able to control the pace of the offense (right now he has only one gear..), call plays, and generally guide the other players on the floor. He is not doing any of those things so far and I have a hard time believing he will start doing them at a satisfactory level in the future.

To be an elite SG would also be a very challenging task for him and might take him a few years to master, but I think it's a better bet than PG for him. He would need to learn how to play off the ball in an offence in which he would be the main guy, but in a defined system in which he and the other players are co-dependant and need to work together to make it work. He would need to improve his jumper, learn how to use screens and how to play to his teammates strengths.

In both cases, Tyreke still has a long way to go, and the first step towards getting there is realizing how long the journey will be and being willing to make that journey and really master one of the positions. It doesn't mean that he can't have combo-skills. He can be a PG and be able to play off the ball or a SG with playmaking abilities. But those skills need to come in addition to mastering one position. He can't be half-and half.

Oh yeah, and he needs coaching for that...
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#65
Why does throwing a question out there make you a "numbnuts."

Wow
Throwing a dumb, unrealistic, perspective lacking question out there to attract trolls, haters and various other flies is no compliment to the intiator's reasonablenss. It also doesn't particularly make this board, or the fanbase in general look good. I came to this job during the board wars of the golden Lakers/Kings years when we'd get a dozen new Lakers trolls a week steaming through here stirring up crap and reposting threads to ridicule down on their boards. I can only imagine the giggle they would have gotten out of something like this: "wow, look at the Queen's fans panicking like a pack of wild gerbils -- trade him here!"

And no, stupid or panicked is =/= fun.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#67
Yikes.

i can only apologise.
Apology accepted.

I left the thread open because Tyreke's play has been distressing to say the least, and the whole fanbase needed to vent after that Clippers...thing. I am generally a modding minimalist. But it doesn't mean that I am unaware of how all the wild conjectures, complaining, trade and/or fire everyone stuff must look from the outside. If someone new who wanted to become more of a fan came to this board right now, what would they think? Other than screw this, while running away. People around here need to get a grip. If we don't, who will? This team has problems that absolutely deserve discussion, but things have been teetering around here on the Jerry Springer edge. Its not healthy for anyone.

Maybe its time for a ray of positive thinking: At this point there is no place to go but up.
 
#68
If someone new who wanted to become more of a fan came to this board right now, what would they think? Other than screw this, while running away.
I doubt most folks would be that reactionary. It’s just people’s opinions. Nothing to take all that seriously or get offended/upset by.

People around here need to get a grip. If we don't, who will?
The Kings need to get a grip. They’re off to their worst start in 17 years and it’s happening at a time when they’re supposed to be improving. In light of that, I think it’s to be expected that some folks may get a little carried away. Like I said though, it’s just opinion, ideas, and discussions. It’s not as if what we say here has any consequences or impact on the team, so why not just allow folks to express themselves freely, even if it is “negative”?
 
#69
We do have multiple threads dedicated to ditching various players; the coach, the GM, the owners, trade JT, Trade Landry, get rid of Luther Head, Jackson needs to go, we're the worst team in the league etc etc.

Maybe i just broke the camels back so to speak.

but yeah i am a relative "noob" and an international fan so ya know!

i am someone 'new' who wants to become more of a fan and i pretty much do feel that way!
 
#70
Apology accepted.

I left the thread open because Tyreke's play has been distressing to say the least, and the whole fanbase needed to vent after that Clippers...thing. I am generally a modding minimalist. But it doesn't mean that I am unaware of how all the wild conjectures, complaining, trade and/or fire everyone stuff must look from the outside. If someone new who wanted to become more of a fan came to this board right now, what would they think? Other than screw this, while running away. People around here need to get a grip. If we don't, who will? This team has problems that absolutely deserve discussion, but things have been teetering around here on the Jerry Springer edge. Its not healthy for anyone.

Maybe its time for a ray of positive thinking: At this point there is no place to go but up.
The frustrating thing is that we've been saying this for years now. Sure the team has added some pieces, but in general they seem to be terrible at developing any of their own talent. I look at the recent additions over the last several years and the only player who has really improved himself since coming here was Kevin Martin. Hawes barely got any better since drafting him, Thompson is still irrevocably erratic, Donte Greene hasn't even gotten a chance to see the floor to develop consistency and it shows in his game and preparation. Not to say that the players Geoffe has brought in here haven't had talent...Tyreke and Cousins are brimming with it, Beno has been consistent, but hasn't improved much since coming over his first season with us, Dalembert has his moments, and I love the energy and effort that is consistently there with Francisco. What I would love from this organization is a solid plan for future success, and I feel coaching and management are going through the motions, trying to ride out a bad economy rather than put in the work and develop themselves towards future improvement. Pessimistically, I have to believe that the arena issue is looming large in this mentality as well...

Why does it seem that some teams can pick up the same level players and get more out of them? The Phoenixs of the world can pick up a Boris Diaw, a Shawn Marion, a Channing Frye and they can get consistent production and development from them. Even the Louis Amundsons of the world have success with that organization. The same could be said for the Utahs, Portlands, Golden States, San Antonios, and Houstons too. The frustrating thing is that the Kings used to have this ability...They picked up Brian Grant, Corliss Williamson, Peja Stojakovic, Jason Williams, Hedo Turkoglu, Gerald Wallace, Bobby Jackson, Scot Pollard, Doug Christie...They were able to take raw talent and develop and improve these players. Buy low, make improvements, and sell high (Richmond for Webber anyone?). Now it seems the development process has stagnated, and that is perhaps the most frustrating thing. We can buy low as much as we like, making pick after pick, but if the structure isn't in place to develop that talent, then the Kings will continue to be bottom feeders, and we won't be going up anytime soon...
 
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Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#72
The frustrating thing is that we've been saying this for years now. Sure the team has added some pieces, but in general they seem to be terrible at developing any of their own talent. I look at the recent additions over the last several years and the only player who has really improved himself since coming here was Kevin Martin. Hawes barely got any better since drafting him, Thompson is still irrevocably erratic, Donte Greene hasn't even gotten a chance to see the floor to develop consistency and it shows in his game and preparation. Not to say that the players Geoffe has brought in here haven't had talent...Tyreke and Cousins are brimming with it, Beno has been consistent, but hasn't improved much since coming over his first season with us, Dalembert has his moments, and I love the energy and effort that is consistently there with Francisco. What I would love from this organization is a solid plan for future success, and I feel coaching and management are going through the motions, trying to ride out a bad economy rather than put in the work and develop themselves towards future improvement. Pessimistically, I have to believe that the arena issue is looming large in this mentality as well...

Why does it seem that some teams can pick up the same level players and get more out of them? The Phoenixs of the world can pick up a Boris Diaw, a Shawn Marion, a Channing Frye and they can get consistent production and development from them. Even the Louis Amundsons of the world have success with that organization. The same could be said for the Utahs, Portlands, Golden States, San Antonios, and Houstons too. The frustrating thing is that the Kings used to have this ability...They picked up Brian Grant, Corliss Williamson, Peja Stojakovic, Jason Williams, Hedo Turkoglu, Gerald Wallace, Bobby Jackson, Scot Pollard, Doug Christie...They were able to take raw talent and develop and improve these players. Buy low, make improvements, and sell high (Richmond for Webber anyone?). Now it seems the development process has stagnated, and that is perhaps the most frustrating thing. We can buy low as much as we like, making pick after pick, but if the structure isn't in place to develop that talent, then the Kings will continue to be bottom feeders, and we won't be going up anytime soon...
The interruption is essentially only a month old though. Two years ago was the 17 win bottoming out. Last year was the 25 win rebirth and improvement + find a franchise guy. this year was expected to be 35wins and moving into position to matter agan. There's nothing the matter with that progression. Perfectly normal. There are some unrealistic folks who think you just wave a magic wand and go form zero to 60 in no seconds at all, but generally the above is a good solid upward trend. The year after that you aim playoffs.

The disappointment here, the reasonable "we've been saying this for years now" complaint is really only a few weeks old now.
 
#73
this year was expected to be 35wins and moving into position to matter agan. There's nothing the matter with that progression.
What's the matter with it, is that it's not happening. They aren't meeting that expectation. Not only are they not on the road to mattering again, they're the laughing stock of the NBA right now. They're the team that other bad teams end their losing streaks on. They're the team that scrubs have career nights against. They're the team where no one has any clue who's going to start from one night to the next. They're the team that shoots 60% from the line and can't hit a three to save their lives. They're the team that's off to their worst start in 17 years. They're the team that's lost 9 of their last 10. They're the team with sporadic defense and no recognizable offense, etc. etc. At best they've stagnated, at worst they're regressing. They're basically a joke right now. That's why so many fans are so "negative" right now.
 
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#74
Exactly. At this point "we have nowhere to go but up" is just rationalizing. It's really just a pathetic attempt to try and spin being at the bottom into a positive thing.
There is the other option - go find another team to root for. Quite frankly I could never do that. I live too close to Arco. It is frustrating. The Kings performance of late is negative. Tonight is one of my season (11 games) tickets. I'll be there. I'll enjoy it more if they show some signs of "life", any signs. This team now is no where near as pathetic as a handful of others in decades past. One difference between this team and those is the average age and years of NBA experience. Is somebody at fault and causing this? I really don't think so. How many wins had you predicted for Miami at this point. It ain't very predictable. Meanwhile I'll be there again tonight rooting for them. If it gets awful I'll get mad and get over it because it has never failed to get better sooner or later. I'll quit now mainly because I'm tired and surely I've lost all readers by now. Kings over Bulls!!!!!!
 
#76
lol. i just remembered something about the commentary while we were playing the game that i thought was hilarious. when tyreke shot his usual ugly-looking jumpshot the announcers thought he was taking an off balance shot. haha. now that i think about it thats exactly how it looks. this off season i think he may need a new shooting coach not named tyreke.
 
#77
The interruption is essentially only a month old though. Two years ago was the 17 win bottoming out. Last year was the 25 win rebirth and improvement + find a franchise guy. this year was expected to be 35wins and moving into position to matter agan. There's nothing the matter with that progression. Perfectly normal. There are some unrealistic folks who think you just wave a magic wand and go form zero to 60 in no seconds at all, but generally the above is a good solid upward trend. The year after that you aim playoffs.

The disappointment here, the reasonable "we've been saying this for years now" complaint is really only a few weeks old now.
My primary complaint is the stagnation of player development. This has been going on for years now, and is impairing the ability of this franchise to succeed and build for future success. What will it take for the Kings organization to rededicate themselves to improving their talent internally, week to week, season by season? I know that practices are hard to come by during the season, and that developing teams have a lot of turn over, but being in the third year of the true rebuild I would hope they have a formula and strategy in place to develop their core of players who will be around for the next 5-7 years like the great teams do. This involves developing them both in practice, preparation, off court mentorship, and player education, as well as game time experience and accountability. Everyone should be involved in this if the organization hopes to flourish in the future. Ultimately, consistency builds chemistry, but nothing cures cancer like winning some ball games.

Right now the roster has several young talented pieces that could use encouragement, development, guidance, and leadership. The Kings of old did this with a group of hearty bench mobbers (John Barry, Tyrone Corbin, Corliss Williamson, Vernon Maxwell, Scot Pollard), a young talented nucleus (Jason Williams, Peja Stojakovic, Williamson and Webber) a veteran coach (Rick Adelman), and a couple wily veterans (Barry, Maxwell, and especially Vlade Divac). This current Kings team has much less veteran leadership, a less respected head coach, and a much less experienced (though very deep and talented) bench mob. I really like some of the Kings young pieces, even the overlooked ones like Beno, Garcia, Thompson, Donte and Casspi, however the plan to take them from occasional contributors and develop them into perennial productive players is stalled, and has been for several years now. Even Tyreke is having a hard time evolving his game to adjust to the different defensive looks teams are throwing at him. I'm sure he will figure out a way to continue to be productive, dominant even, however, it is too bad the organization isn't more helpful and proactive in this endeavor.

What many of the critics who cover the league are saying about this team is partly true. We do have a derth of team talent and experience. That doesn't mean, however that this team as a whole is untalented, it is however underdeveloped. I would love to see this team succeed with the players currently on the roster, and I feel there is potential for them to do so in future seasons, but there needs to be a restructuring that focuses on harvesting team chemistry, developing a playing style that fits the strengths of all members of the core going forward, and implementing a cohesive plan of attack that is consistent game to game, season to season, and opponent to opponent. This includes addressing personal player improvements as well, and expecting improvement from all players, especially the young nucleus of Casspi, Thompson, Whiteside, Cousins, Green, and Evans.

Retrospectively, there was one thing I really took for granted with coach Adelman when he was with the Kings. He always had a consistent/predictable starting line-up game in and game out with consistent rotations unless absolutely mandated by injury. I recognized that he did this but I didn't understand the significance of it at the time. I often wondered why he didn't try to test Bobby Jackson as the starter over Bibby for a bit more team speed, or why he wouldn't put Keon Clark in the starting line-up for a better defensive punch. This consistency gave the entire team the ability to learn each other's tendancies intimately. Over the course of several seasons this blossomed so well that they didn't even have to run plays sometimes, they just knew where the other players would want the ball and where they needed to move to get it to them. That kind of chemistry was truly rare, and can only be achieved with consistency, and a comfort level from management, coaches, and from the players themselves.
 
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bajaden

Hall of Famer
#78
I agree with Lockehead's (I think it was him...) very insightful observation from earlier. This whole "I'm not a PG or SG, I'm a guard" thing is a copout. Tyreke needs to develop skills that would at least qualify him to be one of the two. His ability to get to the rim (which is currently diminishing) alone will not make him a superstar and will not lead the Kings to the promised land. He either needs to learn how to be a playmaker (currently he is a less-than-mediocre playmaker) and adopt some kind of a pass-first attitude, or at least ease up on the pass-as-a-last-resort attitude, or learn how to be effective off the ball and become primarily a dominant SG. Personally, I think the latter would be a much better fit for him. To be an elite playmaker, he needs to be able to control the pace of the offense (right now he has only one gear..), call plays, and generally guide the other players on the floor. He is not doing any of those things so far and I have a hard time believing he will start doing them at a satisfactory level in the future.

To be an elite SG would also be a very challenging task for him and might take him a few years to master, but I think it's a better bet than PG for him. He would need to learn how to play off the ball in an offence in which he would be the main guy, but in a defined system in which he and the other players are co-dependant and need to work together to make it work. He would need to improve his jumper, learn how to use screens and how to play to his teammates strengths.

In both cases, Tyreke still has a long way to go, and the first step towards getting there is realizing how long the journey will be and being willing to make that journey and really master one of the positions. It doesn't mean that he can't have combo-skills. He can be a PG and be able to play off the ball or a SG with playmaking abilities. But those skills need to come in addition to mastering one position. He can't be half-and half.

Oh yeah, and he needs coaching for that...
My point was that it didn't matter what you called him. Thats just semantics. If we decide to suddenly call him a SG, he's still the same player doing the same things. And if he was ineffective before, he'll still be ineffective afterwards. The point is that every team is geared up to stop Tyreke from getting to the basket. And thats not going to change whether he's a PG or a SG. He still needs to develop an outside shot of some kind, even if its only a mid-range shot. That doesn't change if you start calling him a SG instead of a PG. I've never been on any bandwagon as to what Tyreke is. I don't care what you want to call him. He's still the same player with the same skills. If you want to trade for a true PG and put him on the floor with Tyreke, thats fine with me. But is possible that he'll be less effective overall. And thats fine to as long as it leads to wins. Because thats what I'm all about. I'm not into player worship.

Back when I started watching Pro basketball there was no such thing as a PG. They were both just guards. Bob Cousy and Bill Sharman both played in the backcourt for the Celtics, and you could argue that both could play the PG position. Pearl Monroe and Walt Frasier both played in the backcourt together and both of them could have been considered PG's. We get too caught up in this definition of what position a player plays and therefore whats expected of him because of it.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the things Evans needs to do to become a complete player. We knew that going into the season. At this point I'm more concerned about his foot than I'am anything else. There's something wrong with the dude. And I doubt it has anything to do with his weight.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#79
I doubt most folks would be that reactionary. It’s just people’s opinions. Nothing to take all that seriously or get offended/upset by.

Your wrong about this one. There are a lot of folks out there that aren't as outspoken as you or I'am. A lot of peopl are shy and afraid to put their ideas for fear of being rebuked. It doesn't matter to me and obviously not to you. But trust me, there are people that would read some of this stuff and particularly some of the heated back and forth and just walk away.
 
#81
Despite the constant falls, Tyreke has been avoiding contact most of the year. The lack of posts up is part of this sudden avoidance of physicality. Of course this extends a players career, but it is really hurting his game. Teams are designed to do two things against the Kings: Clog the lane, don't foul Evans. Tyreke has been obliging them by not trying to draw contact on his drives. I imagine his FT attempts are way down this year.
 

Capt. Factorial

ceterum censeo delendum esse Argentum
Staff member
#82
Tyreke has been obliging them by not trying to draw contact on his drives. I imagine his FT attempts are way down this year.
Why imagine when you can just look at the numbers? LINK Short answer: Last year, 6.3 FTA/36 minutes. This year, 4.6 FTA/36 minutes.
 
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Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#83
How come Tyreke never posts his guy up?
That much at lest is the offense. Guards rarely can spontaneously go down and just post somebody up without it being a designed play. IN particular on our team that abruptly has a lot of bigs down in the painted area. We've been running some post sequences alng the left block for him, and they've been pretty effective,but lie everything else n this team we never stick with it. Note too that this is where the failure to find a full sized backcourt mate for Tyreke really hurts. If Tyreke was matched by opposing PGs we could go to him in the post all day long and teams would have no chice but to double. But as it stands today he is constantly being checked by the opposing team's best SG/SF stopper, many of whom are bigger than he is. He could dominate PGs in the post on sheer size/strength. But to be able to take similar sized or bigger players into the post will take years of practice/improvement as a post player. Took Jordan until his late 20s to become run-the-offense-through-me lethal down there, and he had the advantage of really being able to jump.
 
#85
Meh, if he even manages to get good position, throw a quick double at him. 5/10 times he'll probably turn it over.

If he doesn't get good position, what's he going to do? a turn around jumper?
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#86
Meh, if he even manages to get good position, throw a quick double at him. 5/10 times he'll probably turn it over.

If he doesn't get good position, what's he going to do? a turn around jumper?

Don't be ridiulous. A good postup guard can really bend the defense, most guards aren;t used to guarding that, and a guard has more options, especially one wiht reke's handle.
 
#87
It's crazy to see how fast Kings fans have turned on Reke. Shoulda figured it would happen. Some of them are the same ones who turned on C-Webb and on Kevin Martin.
 
#88
It's crazy to see how fast Kings fans have turned on Reke. Shoulda figured it would happen. Some of them are the same ones who turned on C-Webb and on Kevin Martin.
Acknowledging Tyreke's weaknesses and discussing what he needs to do to get to the next level does not equal turning on Tyreke.
 
#90
Tyreke really needs a floater in his repertoire. Like the one Rose has developed, it will stop people from getting under him and getting charges.