Because it's TDOS, I thought I would tweeze this theme from some of the other threads on the board. I'm surprised that in the Reynolds post the anti-Evans/pro pure poing guard people didn't pick up on the fact that Reynolds was very, very cautious when talking about Evans's ball handling. He was really hedging his bets. He said he wasn't a pure point guard. He said that Garcia could become the "point guard" when Evans was on the floor, which is not exactly a vote of confidence for Evans's ball-handling skills. He said that Flynn would probably perform better as a "point guard", at least at the first half of the season or maybe even toward the beginning of his career. So I'm lobbing you a slow fat ball you anti-Evans, assist to turnovers people. How many assists versus turnovers is this team going to have next year? And how many assists/turnovers is Evans going to have? Lastly, will those stats improve over the course of the season, and if so, by how much?
Turnovers/Assists
- Thread starter Kingster
- Start date
A
it really depends on how the coach chooses to use evans at pg. if he is forcing him to get assists and play like a pass first pg he will have tons of turnovers. but if they have another ball handler and let evans pick his spots where he can dish or look for his own shot he'll be okay. bibby didnt really have that many turnovers because they had other players to make passes to other players like miller. hawes could be that player and so could garcia.
but if garcia is playing with evans as a point forward does that mean that garcia is starting at sf or is evans coming off the bench? hmmm....or are they both starting?
evans
martin
garcia
thompson
hawes
that would definitely give evans enough shooters to pass the ball to and the floor would be spread so evans would have room to attack the paint and dish it to 3pt shooters. but there is no way that we could maintain that for an entire season or even game. at one point the threes stop falling and we'll get blown out. we would need more than just that option, he has a shaky jumpshot from what i have heard so pick 'n rolls might not be the back up plan.
but thats just evans... we have other pg's on the team. sergio has pretty good court vision and when beno is playing well he isnt that bad. not good enough to be a full time starter but he'll be able to run the offense for brief stints without any real problems.
but if garcia is playing with evans as a point forward does that mean that garcia is starting at sf or is evans coming off the bench? hmmm....or are they both starting?
evans
martin
garcia
thompson
hawes
that would definitely give evans enough shooters to pass the ball to and the floor would be spread so evans would have room to attack the paint and dish it to 3pt shooters. but there is no way that we could maintain that for an entire season or even game. at one point the threes stop falling and we'll get blown out. we would need more than just that option, he has a shaky jumpshot from what i have heard so pick 'n rolls might not be the back up plan.
but thats just evans... we have other pg's on the team. sergio has pretty good court vision and when beno is playing well he isnt that bad. not good enough to be a full time starter but he'll be able to run the offense for brief stints without any real problems.
A team that gets a lot of assists usually get a high percentage of its assists from easy shots. Easy shots come from ball movement and unselfish play. Without knowing what kind of offense Westphal is going to run its hard to predict the amount of assists. I'm going to assume that he wants to run a motion offense of some kind, and also push the ball whenever possible.
Pushing the ball up the court can sometimes get you easy baskets and obviously assists as well. But it can also get you a lot of turnovers, if not done properly. Hawes, Thompson, Garcia, Evans, Rodriquez, May and Casspi are all fair to good passers of the ball. In the starting five, and I'm assuming Evans as a starter, only Martin is not a good passer, or a particularly good ballhandler. So there's no reason this team as it stands right now can't at some point average 20 plus assists a game.
However, that ain't going to happen overnight folks. I fear that there's going to be some growing pains at the beginning. So the only prediction I'll make is that if, the starting five can remain healthy, and is allowed to play together for 30 plus minutes a game, I think they can approach 18 to 20 APG the last 30 or so games of the year. I'm hopeful that they can get their turnover rate down to around 12 a game by that time. Obviously 10 or less would be ideal, but I doubt a team this young can accheive that.
Pushing the ball up the court can sometimes get you easy baskets and obviously assists as well. But it can also get you a lot of turnovers, if not done properly. Hawes, Thompson, Garcia, Evans, Rodriquez, May and Casspi are all fair to good passers of the ball. In the starting five, and I'm assuming Evans as a starter, only Martin is not a good passer, or a particularly good ballhandler. So there's no reason this team as it stands right now can't at some point average 20 plus assists a game.
However, that ain't going to happen overnight folks. I fear that there's going to be some growing pains at the beginning. So the only prediction I'll make is that if, the starting five can remain healthy, and is allowed to play together for 30 plus minutes a game, I think they can approach 18 to 20 APG the last 30 or so games of the year. I'm hopeful that they can get their turnover rate down to around 12 a game by that time. Obviously 10 or less would be ideal, but I doubt a team this young can accheive that.
Im really getting annoyed with some of the people on this board and the way they like to play with others words and take them out of context. Evans isnt a "pure-point guard" because hes a scoring point guard. One of Evans's best strengths is his ball handling ability. Its one of the main reasons he was drafted so high. Is Hawes a "pure center"? No. Nobody seems to be concerned with putting him on the floor. Is Lebron James a "pure small forward?" No. Does that mean they arent good players? Is anyone concerned about putting them on the floor and giving them heavy minutes because they arent pure players for their position? Is Allen Iverson a "pure point guard?" Has his impurity ever stopped him from destroying anyone that attempts to guard him? Im seeing alot of people on this site are one-track minded in the way they perceive basketball to be played. Its as if everyone has to fit a stereotype and must perform all of the duties that their position entails, otherwise theres major questions marks about that player.
I wish i were a moderator of this board so that when Evans starts playing well I could say, "i told you so" and then start banning people
I wish i were a moderator of this board so that when Evans starts playing well I could say, "i told you so" and then start banning people
Evans was turnover prone in his lone year in college, and showed that as well in summer league. That doesn't change overnight. He does have ballhandling ability and can create for himself, but just overdoes it--the hope is that the coaching staff can rectify this part of his game faster and get him to tone it down a bit, become a smarter player. I think we'll see more than a fair share of turnovers from him initially.
As for the assists as a team, I'm really not sure--a lot of this really depends on the coach, and how things really click as a team. We did average nearly 20 assists a game last year but we lost Salmons and Miller--our 2nd and 3rd best passers from last year's team. I think Evans will make up for Salmons's passing and I do think Hawes/Garcia have some untapped passing ability that might come out, but it's hard for me to say we'll average over 20+ assists next season. I'm thinking more like 18-19, like last year.
As for the assists as a team, I'm really not sure--a lot of this really depends on the coach, and how things really click as a team. We did average nearly 20 assists a game last year but we lost Salmons and Miller--our 2nd and 3rd best passers from last year's team. I think Evans will make up for Salmons's passing and I do think Hawes/Garcia have some untapped passing ability that might come out, but it's hard for me to say we'll average over 20+ assists next season. I'm thinking more like 18-19, like last year.
This is my kind of thread..
Evans might be the only starting PG (if we start him at PG) to have a 1 to 1 or a 1 to 1.* a/to ratio.
The Kings as a whole might average 18-20 assists a game against 17-19 turnovers.
It's definitely going to be interesting to watch. I do think the Kings got tougher, but the overall talent and experience level has dropped this year so we will probably be at about the same win total +/- 3 games, our defensive stats will be better than last year but offensively we will be much worse.
Evans might be the only starting PG (if we start him at PG) to have a 1 to 1 or a 1 to 1.* a/to ratio.
The Kings as a whole might average 18-20 assists a game against 17-19 turnovers.
It's definitely going to be interesting to watch. I do think the Kings got tougher, but the overall talent and experience level has dropped this year so we will probably be at about the same win total +/- 3 games, our defensive stats will be better than last year but offensively we will be much worse.
Im really getting annoyed with some of the people on this board and the way they like to play with others words and take them out of context. Evans isnt a "pure-point guard" because hes a scoring point guard. One of Evans's best strengths is his ball handling ability. Its one of the main reasons he was drafted so high. Is Hawes a "pure center"? No. Nobody seems to be concerned with putting him on the floor. Is Lebron James a "pure small forward?" No. Does that mean they arent good players? Is anyone concerned about putting them on the floor and giving them heavy minutes because they arent pure players for their position? Is Allen Iverson a "pure point guard?" Has his impurity ever stopped him from destroying anyone that attempts to guard him? Im seeing alot of people on this site are one-track minded in the way they perceive basketball to be played. Its as if everyone has to fit a stereotype and must perform all of the duties that their position entails, otherwise theres major questions marks about that player.
I wish i were a moderator of this board so that when Evans starts playing well I could say, "i told you so" and then start banning people
I wish i were a moderator of this board so that when Evans starts playing well I could say, "i told you so" and then start banning people
Call me old fashion, and maybe I do have a one track mind but I like my Cs and PFs tall, my SF and SG able to hit outside jumpers and spread the floor, and my PGs able to handle the ball and make others around him better. I think that's the consensus for most as well because you don't see many people drafting centers to play some guard.
Well put together Gary - re: the season outlook, couldn't have said it better myself. Of course, better outlooks would be nice, but I'm a little more rational...
Keep in mind this was post-trade deadline - this team as whole already took the season off. And while all those guys are scrubs, they did have experience on their side (for better or for worse). But really, I wouldn't make much comparison to the post-deadline team, other than the portrait of a dysfunctional franchise.
Keep in mind this was post-trade deadline - this team as whole already took the season off. And while all those guys are scrubs, they did have experience on their side (for better or for worse). But really, I wouldn't make much comparison to the post-deadline team, other than the portrait of a dysfunctional franchise.
And when the Kings are 22-60 with Evans dealing out 13ppg 4rpg 4apg 4to will you say you were wrong?
Call me old fashion, and maybe I do have a one track mind but I like my Cs and PFs tall, my SF and SG able to hit outside jumpers and spread the floor, and my PGs able to handle the ball and make others around him better. I think that's the consensus for most as well because you don't see many people drafting centers to play some guard.
Call me old fashion, and maybe I do have a one track mind but I like my Cs and PFs tall, my SF and SG able to hit outside jumpers and spread the floor, and my PGs able to handle the ball and make others around him better. I think that's the consensus for most as well because you don't see many people drafting centers to play some guard.
He needs to see a lot of minutes.... I agree with you.. Plus the way he attacks the basket I wouldn't be surprised if he does average 10-14ppg. He's not the type of player that will pass on a shot if he can get one for himself.
BUT, the issue I have is the majority of his minutes will come at the PG spot and that is what scares the heck out of me. His VSL was fine from a offensive POV but his PG and distribution skills need a ton of work.
BUT, the issue I have is the majority of his minutes will come at the PG spot and that is what scares the heck out of me. His VSL was fine from a offensive POV but his PG and distribution skills need a ton of work.
I agree that the overall experience level is lower than last season, but think the talent level has increased. The question is how quickly the young players well become more experienced.
As for their offense, I think it will struggle during the early part of the season due to youth and player basically learning to play with each other. But the second half of the season I expect it to be better than last year. Can anyone tell me what offense they ran last season? It not only seemed to change from game to game, but often from quarter to quarter. I think Westphal will have a much more consistent offensive scheme this season, which should lead to a more consistent offense. It just won't happen over night.
As for their offense, I think it will struggle during the early part of the season due to youth and player basically learning to play with each other. But the second half of the season I expect it to be better than last year. Can anyone tell me what offense they ran last season? It not only seemed to change from game to game, but often from quarter to quarter. I think Westphal will have a much more consistent offensive scheme this season, which should lead to a more consistent offense. It just won't happen over night.
Again though, all of this assumes that you need a pure PG to win a championship. Yes, like a lot of 19 year olds, he will need to become a better distributor. But if he can become a player in the Kobe, Wade, Roy mode he does not need to be a pure passer for our team to become successful. As long as he is not a ball hog and even in summer league he seemed to be a willing passer.
?????
We have anti-Evans people on this board? I know some of us preferred that we take Rubio with our 4th pick. However, I was not aware that = anti-Evans.
I think we'll all be thrilled with what Evans brings to the Kings. He is going to bring a dimension to the team that we haven't seen. Will he be the end-all? Probably not. Will he bring excitement and talent? You bet. And, when this team gels, he'll give us assists, rebounds, and POINTS. Oh yeah...and Defense!!! I'm good with that.
Tyreke Evans was drafted for his defensive presence. He is a huge upgrade defensively at the PG spot (you have to go back to the days of Doug Christie to find someone in his league). The defensive and rebounding improvement will lead to easier offense, which in turn will lead to more assists, and fewer turnovers. Defense wins, and Tyreke will definitely "D" it up.
Never said you need a pure PG to win a championship. I will say you need a distributor who makes others around him better and He has not shown that yet. You can blame it on the other players missing shots and whatnot because that did happen in VSL but if every pass attempt from every PG was a 100% sure thing then everyone would be averaging 15+apg...
VSL was hard for me to watch because of how bad the team looked. The only things that impressed me was Brockman's rebounding, and Evans offensive game. He still needs to work on his ball handling, passing, and distribution.
VSL was hard for me to watch because of how bad the team looked. The only things that impressed me was Brockman's rebounding, and Evans offensive game. He still needs to work on his ball handling, passing, and distribution.
I am anti-Evans as the main distributor/PG because I don't think he's an upgrade over Beno (as a passer/handler/distributor).. I wouldn't mind him playing SG but that would mean trading my favorite King. So it's really a no win situation for me at least at this point. I really do hope someone turns on that PG light in Evans head and he proves me wrong!
Asst/TO ratio for all the starters is horrible.
Martin 138 assts 146 To's .95 to 1 ratio
JT 93 assts 146 T0's .64 to 1 ratio
Donte 30 assts 37 T0's .81 to 1 ratio
Hawes 149 assts 160 To's .93 to 1 ratio
Noc 42 assts 40 To's 1.05 to 1 ratio
Cisco 150 assts 112 To's 1.34 to 1 ratio
Beno 342 assts 158 To's 2.16 to 1 ratio
Kings 19.7 assts 15.4 To's
Opp 21.9 assts 14.4 To's
Evans could come in and get 5 assts & 4 to's per game and still be in the top 3.
But, turnovers aren't what we need to fix the most. We only had 81 more turnovers than our opponents. We gave up 178 second chance attempts off the offensive glass. But, even that isn't our biggest weakness. The opponents made 291 more baskets on only 107 more attempts. Yes, turnovers and defensive rebounds are important. But, we need to defend better and shoot better ourselves.
Based on 107 more FGA and a 48% FG% the opponent should only out scored us by 103 pts. But, in reality they outscored us by 718 pts. So, it was their high shooting percentage and not our Turnovers that caused us to lose.
Martin 138 assts 146 To's .95 to 1 ratio
JT 93 assts 146 T0's .64 to 1 ratio
Donte 30 assts 37 T0's .81 to 1 ratio
Hawes 149 assts 160 To's .93 to 1 ratio
Noc 42 assts 40 To's 1.05 to 1 ratio
Cisco 150 assts 112 To's 1.34 to 1 ratio
Beno 342 assts 158 To's 2.16 to 1 ratio
Kings 19.7 assts 15.4 To's
Opp 21.9 assts 14.4 To's
Evans could come in and get 5 assts & 4 to's per game and still be in the top 3.
But, turnovers aren't what we need to fix the most. We only had 81 more turnovers than our opponents. We gave up 178 second chance attempts off the offensive glass. But, even that isn't our biggest weakness. The opponents made 291 more baskets on only 107 more attempts. Yes, turnovers and defensive rebounds are important. But, we need to defend better and shoot better ourselves.
Based on 107 more FGA and a 48% FG% the opponent should only out scored us by 103 pts. But, in reality they outscored us by 718 pts. So, it was their high shooting percentage and not our Turnovers that caused us to lose.
Gary! He hasn't shown anything yet. He's a 19 year old talent thats going to get better. Its going to take a few years before we really know what we have. Come on dude. You watch as much college basketball as I do. He only played one year, and it was a damm sucessfull year. Maybe he didn't exhibit all the point guard skills that you wanted in that one year, but as I said, he's only 19 years old. My god, has everyone lost their common sense. Did any of you have your future defined at age 19? Were any of you as good as your were going to get at age 19? Were any of you done learning and improving at age 19????
Cut the kid a little slack. Sit back and relax and give him a chance for heavens sake. In my opinion, this kid is one of those rare players that has the ability to impact the game at both ends of the floor. Thats why I stated a couple of months ago that after Griffin, the only player I would call an impact player was Evans. Personally, I don't care how he does it. Just as I wouldn't care how LeBron does it. Or Wade does it. Just as long as he does it. I'm not denying the weaknesses in his game. But their all correctable. As I said, just my opinion..
Cut the kid a little slack. Sit back and relax and give him a chance for heavens sake. In my opinion, this kid is one of those rare players that has the ability to impact the game at both ends of the floor. Thats why I stated a couple of months ago that after Griffin, the only player I would call an impact player was Evans. Personally, I don't care how he does it. Just as I wouldn't care how LeBron does it. Or Wade does it. Just as long as he does it. I'm not denying the weaknesses in his game. But their all correctable. As I said, just my opinion..
A
I am anti-Evans as the main distributor/PG because I don't think he's an upgrade over Beno (as a passer/handler/distributor).. I wouldn't mind him playing SG but that would mean trading my favorite King. So it's really a no win situation for me at least at this point. I really do hope someone turns on that PG light in Evans head and he proves me wrong!
Gary! He hasn't shown anything yet. He's a 19 year old talent thats going to get better. Its going to take a few years before we really know what we have. Come on dude. You watch as much college basketball as I do. He only played one year, and it was a damm sucessfull year. Maybe he didn't exhibit all the point guard skills that you wanted in that one year, but as I said, he's only 19 years old. My god, has everyone lost their common sense. Did any of you have your future defined at age 19? Were any of you as good as your were going to get at age 19? Were any of you done learning and improving at age 19????
Cut the kid a little slack. Sit back and relax and give him a chance for heavens sake. In my opinion, this kid is one of those rare players that has the ability to impact the game at both ends of the floor. Thats why I stated a couple of months ago that after Griffin, the only player I would call an impact player was Evans. Personally, I don't care how he does it. Just as I wouldn't care how LeBron does it. Or Wade does it. Just as long as he does it. I'm not denying the weaknesses in his game. But their all correctable. As I said, just my opinion..
Cut the kid a little slack. Sit back and relax and give him a chance for heavens sake. In my opinion, this kid is one of those rare players that has the ability to impact the game at both ends of the floor. Thats why I stated a couple of months ago that after Griffin, the only player I would call an impact player was Evans. Personally, I don't care how he does it. Just as I wouldn't care how LeBron does it. Or Wade does it. Just as long as he does it. I'm not denying the weaknesses in his game. But their all correctable. As I said, just my opinion..
Interesting. One would have thought that the opposition would have had more than 107 more attempts than us. Actually our assists per game isn't terrible. At least its close to the magic number 20. One would have to assume that the largest disparity between 107 more attempts and the 718 extra points had to come from our perimeter defense. I'm not trying to give our interior defense a free lunch ticket. But a lot of the interior problems occured when the perimeter defense broke down first.
I'm hopefull that the addition of Evans, along with improvement in team defense will help correct some of that. I would be interested in knowing what the disparity was on fast break points.
I'm hopefull that the addition of Evans, along with improvement in team defense will help correct some of that. I would be interested in knowing what the disparity was on fast break points.