Trade targets

There's a big difference in Haliburton for Simmons and Haliburton + multiple first round picks for Simmons.

Simmons is superior but he's not worth losing Haliburton's contributions plus a few first round picks for. You aren't just trading for 15, 7 and 7 with elite defense Simmons. You're trading for all the baggage that comes along with that and that has a cost to it. You let the Sixers off the hook if the latter is disregarded. Hali for Simmons? Ok, but you need to have Fox lined up to be traded in another deal. Hali for Simmons + a FRP? We're talking. Anything more than that? Kick rocks. It's not like our FRPs are in the 20s. They have a lot of value to them.

This franchise only has a few avenues to acquire talent. Simmons isn't Embiid and can't carry a team on his own. You don't just hand the keys over to him with low level role players and perennial losing players and make a run at it without the ability to draft any talent for the next few years.
How about this, pick any two players from this list to give to Philadelphia:

Marvin Bagley
De’Aaron Fox
Justin Jackson
Harry Giles
Georgios Papagiannis
Malachi Richardson
Skal Labissiere
Willie Cauley-Stein
Nik Stauskas
Ben McLemore
Thomas Robinson
Jimmer Fredette
DeMarcus Cousins
Tyreke Evans
Jason Thompson
Spencer Hawes
Quincy Douby
Francisco Garcia
Kevin Martin

Because that's what we're actually talking about here. It's nice to think we're going to pick a great player every year in the first round but we won't. At least 50% of our future picks are going to amount to nothing and if past history is any indication the rest are probably going to keep us in 35 win purgatory forever.

I think fate handed us a gift in the form of an MVP level player with the second pick of the 2018 draft and we said "no thanks". Now fate is handing us a gift again in the form of a 25 year old budding superstar who is a perfect fit for a team that can't stop anyone from scoring for more than 5 minutes a game and we're ready to make the same mistake again. For what? The vague hope that doing the same thing over and over again will somehow yield different results?

Tyrese Haliburton is a great young player. Nobody needs to feel sorry for him being traded to Philadelphia to play in front of sell out crowds and compete for a championship every year alongside the best big man of this generation. And nobody is going to give away one of their best players without getting something of value in return. I don't think we're in any position to be dictating the terms here. We have one asset Philadelphia wants and we just have to wrap him in some monopoly money to help Daryl Morey save face. It's easy to sit over here and lob stones because of a situation we know very little about but Ben Simmons actually makes us relevant in the NBA conversation again.
 

Warhawk

The cake is a lie.
Staff member
Now fate is handing us a gift again in the form of a 25 year old budding superstar who is a perfect fit for a team that can't stop anyone from scoring for more than 5 minutes a game and we're ready to make the same mistake again. For what? The vague hope that doing the same thing over and over again will somehow yield different results?

Tyrese Haliburton is a great young player. Nobody needs to feel sorry for him being traded to Philadelphia to play in front of sell out crowds and compete for a championship every year alongside the best big man of this generation. And nobody is going to give away one of their best players without getting something of value in return. I don't think we're in any position to be dictating the terms here. We have one asset Philadelphia wants and we just have to wrap him in some monopoly money to help Daryl Morey save face. It's easy to sit over here and lob stones because of a situation we know very little about but Ben Simmons actually makes us relevant in the NBA conversation again.
Fate isn't "handing" us anything. At this point Simmons is (was?) a great defensive player (with a crazy huge contract amount for 3 more years) that has either totally just quit on a championship-aspiring team or has developed mental illness to the point of being completely unable to even halfheartedly go through some practices to keep getting paid (they kicked him out for non-participation). You pick which at this point, because we still don't know which is true (another huge red flag) - and either way it's not good. He has to be pulled from close games because of his offensive deficiencies (including horrible FT shooting) and was straight up afraid to shoot a layup to help win a playoff game.

Listen to the 76ers beat writer on KHTK this morning (at 43:00 to 45:00):

The Athletic's 76ers Beat Writer Rich Hofmann Joins The Carmichael Dave Show with Jason Ross (khtk.com)

He says that he has no idea what is going on in Simmons' head and that teams are rightfully "reticent" to bring him in. Some direct quotes:
  • "What type of competitor are you getting?"
  • "He's straight up refusing to play."
  • "He hasn't fixed a major weakness, which is shooting the basketball, for 4 years."
  • "I don't feel like the Sixers are a team that, like, especially wronged him, or really stunted his development, so I don't know what you are going to get between the ears."
Yeah, let's trade away our best young player on a rookie contract who makes everyone around him better for a huge, long-term contract where even the team's beat writer has no idea what he'd be able to contribute, if anything, to whatever team trades for him.

I'd like to hang on to Haliburton, and if we trade him AND multiple FRP, it better be for a SLAM DUNK return. I don't think this is it (at least at this time). And we'd still have to throw in a LOT to make the salaries match, especially with the apparent demand to take on the horrendous Harris contract as well. The beat writer also said that if Harris is attached in the trade, it would "reduce" the draft compensation. REDUCE? We'd better be getting compensation coming our way for trading away young talent, who knows what additional players, AND taking on $69+ million a year for at least the next 3 years to get one good defensive player. That's just absolutely insane.
 
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How about this, pick any two players from this list to give to Philadelphia:

Marvin Bagley
De’Aaron Fox
Justin Jackson
Harry Giles
Georgios Papagiannis
Malachi Richardson
Skal Labissiere
Willie Cauley-Stein
Nik Stauskas
Ben McLemore
Thomas Robinson
Jimmer Fredette
DeMarcus Cousins
Tyreke Evans
Jason Thompson
Spencer Hawes
Quincy Douby
Francisco Garcia
Kevin Martin

Because that's what we're actually talking about here. It's nice to think we're going to pick a great player every year in the first round but we won't. At least 50% of our future picks are going to amount to nothing and if past history is any indication the rest are probably going to keep us in 35 win purgatory forever.

I think fate handed us a gift in the form of an MVP level player with the second pick of the 2018 draft and we said "no thanks". Now fate is handing us a gift again in the form of a 25 year old budding superstar who is a perfect fit for a team that can't stop anyone from scoring for more than 5 minutes a game and we're ready to make the same mistake again. For what? The vague hope that doing the same thing over and over again will somehow yield different results?

Tyrese Haliburton is a great young player. Nobody needs to feel sorry for him being traded to Philadelphia to play in front of sell out crowds and compete for a championship every year alongside the best big man of this generation. And nobody is going to give away one of their best players without getting something of value in return. I don't think we're in any position to be dictating the terms here. We have one asset Philadelphia wants and we just have to wrap him in some monopoly money to help Daryl Morey save face. It's easy to sit over here and lob stones because of a situation we know very little about but Ben Simmons actually makes us relevant in the NBA conversation again.
Jamal is right, you need to add Simmons to the roster, not subtract our best players so you can add him. Otherwise they're going to be spinning their wheels. Simmons is a great player but do you think that he is so good that he can have a 10 game impact on the season while taking away one of our own best impact players? There is no way. This roster isn't losing because it's unbalanced. It's losing because it's not very good on offense or defense.

Nearly every other successful team out there found their stars in the draft and then built around them. The past mistakes of former GMs should not have a hand in future draft decisions. There is simply no reason to rehash the same argument about what a top pick can do for a franchise. Vlade whiffing on Doncic has zero bearing on how to build the team going forward. It's like saying since Vlade missed out on Doncic, we need to take a FRP who is turning out to be quite the player and couple him with a few more FRPs to make up for that one bad decision. That's 3-5 years of assets spent on correcting a mistake that should have only cost 1 asset.

That's just not a good investment. I'm all for change but change alone isn't going to do anything for us. Cousins didn't have the talent around him to win games but you add Simmons to those Cousins teams and they more than likely make the playoffs. You trade Cousins for Simmons and you're just sitting in nearly the same place you were in before the trade. It's the draft that makes those additions. Adding Simmons to Embiid is what got the Sixers off and running. Not swapping the two for each other. Unless you completely hoodwink some GM, there is very little chance that the Kings can make meaningful additions by swapping players for players.
 
Jamal is right, you need to add Simmons to the roster, not subtract our best players so you can add him. Otherwise they're going to be spinning their wheels. Simmons is a great player but do you think that he is so good that he can have a 10 game impact on the season while taking away one of our own best impact players? There is no way. This roster isn't losing because it's unbalanced. It's losing because it's not very good on offense or defense.

Nearly every other successful team out there found their stars in the draft and then built around them. The past mistakes of former GMs should not have a hand in future draft decisions. There is simply no reason to rehash the same argument about what a top pick can do for a franchise. Vlade whiffing on Doncic has zero bearing on how to build the team going forward. It's like saying since Vlade missed out on Doncic, we need to take a FRP who is turning out to be quite the player and couple him with a few more FRPs to make up for that one bad decision. That's 3-5 years of assets spent on correcting a mistake that should have only cost 1 asset.

That's just not a good investment. I'm all for change but change alone isn't going to do anything for us. Cousins didn't have the talent around him to win games but you add Simmons to those Cousins teams and they more than likely make the playoffs. You trade Cousins for Simmons and you're just sitting in nearly the same place you were in before the trade. t's the draft that makes those additions. Adding Simmons to Embiid is what got the Sixers off and running. Not swapping the two for each other. Unless you completely hoodwink some GM, there is very little chance that the Kings can make meaningful additions by swapping players for players.
Which brings us back to the BPA argument that some have been lamenting around here. No, Davion isn't a good fit with Hali/Fox both on the team. But the point is you keep firing until you have a top 15 player and have a core worthy of building good fit around.

If Davion becomes Gary Payton or Donovan Mitchell is anyone going to care he didn't "fit"? No. Building for fit when you aren't talented enough to be a top 5 or so playoff team just makes absolutely 0 sense and is how you stay a loser franchise. We can debate whether Davion was actually BPA or not, but he obviously was to Monte and that's the exact process I want our GM to be taking.
 
How about this, pick any two players from this list to give to Philadelphia:

Marvin Bagley
De’Aaron Fox
Justin Jackson
Harry Giles
Georgios Papagiannis
Malachi Richardson
Skal Labissiere
Willie Cauley-Stein
Nik Stauskas
Ben McLemore
Thomas Robinson
Jimmer Fredette
DeMarcus Cousins
Tyreke Evans
Jason Thompson
Spencer Hawes
Quincy Douby
Francisco Garcia
Kevin Martin

Because that's what we're actually talking about here. It's nice to think we're going to pick a great player every year in the first round but we won't. At least 50% of our future picks are going to amount to nothing and if past history is any indication the rest are probably going to keep us in 35 win purgatory forever.

I think fate handed us a gift in the form of an MVP level player with the second pick of the 2018 draft and we said "no thanks". Now fate is handing us a gift again in the form of a 25 year old budding superstar who is a perfect fit for a team that can't stop anyone from scoring for more than 5 minutes a game and we're ready to make the same mistake again. For what? The vague hope that doing the same thing over and over again will somehow yield different results?

Tyrese Haliburton is a great young player. Nobody needs to feel sorry for him being traded to Philadelphia to play in front of sell out crowds and compete for a championship every year alongside the best big man of this generation. And nobody is going to give away one of their best players without getting something of value in return. I don't think we're in any position to be dictating the terms here. We have one asset Philadelphia wants and we just have to wrap him in some monopoly money to help Daryl Morey save face. It's easy to sit over here and lob stones because of a situation we know very little about but Ben Simmons actually makes us relevant in the NBA conversation again.
Horrible analogy. If you want to evaluate what is ACTUALLY being traded you have look at each payers current performance and potential based on their most recent performance. So take Halliburton and any top 2 top 20 guys in the this years draft and compare their 2020-2021 and 2022 production because this is what you are actually giving up. Now balance that against what Simons did last season including and especially in the play offs AND this year. Because THAT is what you are bringing back.
 
Fate isn't "handing" us anything. At this point Simmons is (was?) a great defensive player (with a crazy huge contract amount for 3 more years) that has either totally just quit on a championship-aspiring team or has developed mental illness to the point of being completely unable to even halfheartedly go through some practices to keep getting paid (they kicked him out for non-participation). You pick which at this point, because we still don't know which is true (another huge red flag) - and either way it's not good. He has to be pulled from close games because of his offensive deficiencies (including horrible FT shooting) and was straight up afraid to shoot a layup to help win a playoff game.

Listen to the 76ers beat writer on KHTK this morning (at 43:00 to 45:00):

The Athletic's 76ers Beat Writer Rich Hofmann Joins The Carmichael Dave Show with Jason Ross (khtk.com)

He says that he has no idea what is going on in Simmons' head and that teams are rightfully "reticent" to bring him in. Some direct quotes:
  • "What type of competitor are you getting?"
  • "He's straight up refusing to play."
  • "He hasn't fixed a major weakness, which is shooting the basketball, for 4 years."
  • "I don't feel like the Sixers are a team that, like, especially wronged him, or really stunted his development, so I don't know what you are going to get between the ears."
Yeah, let's trade away our best young player on a rookie contract who makes everyone around him better for a huge, long-term contract where even the team's beat writer has no idea what he'd be able to contribute, if anything, to whatever team trades for him.

I'd like to hang on to Haliburton, and if we trade him AND multiple FRP, it better be for a SLAM DUNK return. I don't think this is it (at least at this time). And we'd still have to throw in a LOT to make the salaries match, especially with the apparent demand to take on the horrendous Harris contract as well. The beat writer also said that if Harris is attached in the trade, it would "reduce" the draft compensation. REDUCE? We'd better be getting compensation coming our way for trading away young talent, who knows what additional players, AND taking on $69+ million a year for at least the next 3 years to get one good defensive player. That's just absolutely insane.
I'm just hearing a lot of rationalization here. Simmons finished second in defensive player of the year voting last season. Second, people! He's not just good defensively, he's one of the best defenders in the league and you could argue he's actually more valuable than 3 time DPOY winner Rudy Gobert because he can defend on the perimeter and in the paint. And he's 25 years old. The Athletics' beat writer for the Sixers is not what I would consider to be an impartial source and everything he's saying is just mental health stigma couched in "sports toughness".

As a lifelong sufferer of depression, mental health is something I take very seriously. For a public figure in any context to come out and say they need help with their mental health that might seem like a joke to some people.. (ie he's a multi-millionaire, what does he have to be depressed about)... well depression doesn't really answer to logic like that. It's going to find a way to attack you where you're weakest no matter how outwardly successful you appear to be. He does have other mental health history in his family (his sister has bi-polar disorder) and failing epically in the playoffs to the point where your coach and teammates announce to the press that they blame you for the loss seems like it could send a vulnerable person into a cycle of unhealthy thoughts. Sure we could all be "sports tough" and proclaim that a mentally weak person has no business on our team. Or we could take a step back and realize that depression is treatable and Ben Simmons is a better basketball player than pretty much anyone who has worn a Kings jersey that doesn't have one flying in the rafters.

I posted our last 19 first round picks because people tend to forget during the long season and the lead up to the draft that most of these prospects we covet so much will not fulfill their full potential, they will fall short in some way either by a little or a lot. Every player who has played for the Kings in their 16 years of futility has been the best basketball player in their high school and maybe on their college team too. Some of them were players of the year in college basketball. Did that matter? Not really. For whatever reasons more than half of them never even signed a second contract with the Kings. So yes I think first round picks are basically monopoly money at this point. They're either worth a little or a lot depending on what you do with them and more often then not for this team, they've been worth next to nothing.

Now let's talk about Tyrese Halburton. Step outside the golden glow of Kings-centric media and he's viewed as a pretty good young player who would maybe make a nice sidekick to an elite player but isn't leading a team anywhere on his own. If he keeps playing for the Kings his value will probably not ever be higher than it is right now. At the end of this season he will be halfway through his rookie contract. A year after that he will be one year away from demanding a max extension and if we wait long enough he'll turn into exactly who Fox is now -- a highly paid starter who's only played on losing teams his whole career so other teams are going to offer us below market value for him because he's not a "proven winner". That's if they want him at all. It's hard to find more than a half dozen teams in the league right now who need another PG.

Two years ago if someone had told you that the Kings could acquire Ben Simmons without giving up De'Aaron Fox every single person here would have said that was a no-brainer. Reducing Ben Simmons' entire career down to one bad play in one game, or even one bad series is insanely lazy analysis. Clearly there are reasons for concern vis a vis fielding a core of two non-shooters is probably going to make life very difficult unless/until one of them at least improves enough to be considered average. But look at the game threads, look at the box scores, look at the nearly empty arena, look at the standings and tell me we're not already at rock bottom right now. Look at our #2 overall pick who was supposed to be our franchise savior averaging 9.5 points and 7 rebounds in his fourth season.

You want to bet on talent? You want to build through the draft? Fox and Simmons are better than 95% of the players we've drafted in 16 years of lottery picks. We'd have a top 15 scorer and a top 10 defender on the roster at the same time. Has that ever happened in the history of the Sacramento Kings? I just don't see what we have to lose here. Tanking doesn't even guarantee us a top 5 pick let alone that an MVP level player will even be in the draft let alone we will be in position to take them, let alone we will actually take them when given the chance. It's like we've been offered a million dollars or we could instead make 5 half court shots in a row for 10 million dollars. I'll take the million. If it ends up being a mistake it was at least a mistake worth making. Ron Artest ran into the stands and punched a fan and we still brought him in because we were going nowhere that season and wouldn't you know it, we actually made the playoffs that year. Chris Webber was being charged with multiple crimes at the time we traded a 6 time All Star for him. He was also responsible for one of the most infamous gaffes in NCAA history. I understand why some people are afraid of Ben Simmons but opportunities to acquire a franchise player in his prime don't come along very often. Sometimes the fear of making a bad decision is what prevents you from ever making a good one.
 
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Jamal is right, you need to add Simmons to the roster, not subtract our best players so you can add him. Otherwise they're going to be spinning their wheels. Simmons is a great player but do you think that he is so good that he can have a 10 game impact on the season while taking away one of our own best impact players? There is no way. This roster isn't losing because it's unbalanced. It's losing because it's not very good on offense or defense.

Nearly every other successful team out there found their stars in the draft and then built around them. The past mistakes of former GMs should not have a hand in future draft decisions. There is simply no reason to rehash the same argument about what a top pick can do for a franchise. Vlade whiffing on Doncic has zero bearing on how to build the team going forward. It's like saying since Vlade missed out on Doncic, we need to take a FRP who is turning out to be quite the player and couple him with a few more FRPs to make up for that one bad decision. That's 3-5 years of assets spent on correcting a mistake that should have only cost 1 asset.

That's just not a good investment. I'm all for change but change alone isn't going to do anything for us. Cousins didn't have the talent around him to win games but you add Simmons to those Cousins teams and they more than likely make the playoffs. You trade Cousins for Simmons and you're just sitting in nearly the same place you were in before the trade. It's the draft that makes those additions. Adding Simmons to Embiid is what got the Sixers off and running. Not swapping the two for each other. Unless you completely hoodwink some GM, there is very little chance that the Kings can make meaningful additions by swapping players for players.
It's not just about Doncic. Look at the entire draft history of the Kings. Go all the way back. When was the last time the Kings drafted a franchise player? I'm talking in 50+ years.
 
Fate isn't "handing" us anything. At this point Simmons is (was?) a great defensive player (with a crazy huge contract amount for 3 more years) that has either totally just quit on a championship-aspiring team or has developed mental illness to the point of being completely unable to even halfheartedly go through some practices to keep getting paid (they kicked him out for non-participation). You pick which at this point, because we still don't know which is true (another huge red flag) - and either way it's not good. He has to be pulled from close games because of his offensive deficiencies (including horrible FT shooting) and was straight up afraid to shoot a layup to help win a playoff game.

Listen to the 76ers beat writer on KHTK this morning (at 43:00 to 45:00):

The Athletic's 76ers Beat Writer Rich Hofmann Joins The Carmichael Dave Show with Jason Ross (khtk.com)

He says that he has no idea what is going on in Simmons' head and that teams are rightfully "reticent" to bring him in. Some direct quotes:
  • "What type of competitor are you getting?"
  • "He's straight up refusing to play."
  • "He hasn't fixed a major weakness, which is shooting the basketball, for 4 years."
  • "I don't feel like the Sixers are a team that, like, especially wronged him, or really stunted his development, so I don't know what you are going to get between the ears."
Yeah, let's trade away our best young player on a rookie contract who makes everyone around him better for a huge, long-term contract where even the team's beat writer has no idea what he'd be able to contribute, if anything, to whatever team trades for him.

I'd like to hang on to Haliburton, and if we trade him AND multiple FRP, it better be for a SLAM DUNK return. I don't think this is it (at least at this time). And we'd still have to throw in a LOT to make the salaries match, especially with the apparent demand to take on the horrendous Harris contract as well. The beat writer also said that if Harris is attached in the trade, it would "reduce" the draft compensation. REDUCE? We'd better be getting compensation coming our way for trading away young talent, who knows what additional players, AND taking on $69+ million a year for at least the next 3 years to get one good defensive player. That's just absolutely insane.
Don’t confuse people with logic. :p
 
It's not just about Doncic. Look at the entire draft history of the Kings. Go all the way back. When was the last time the Kings drafted a franchise player? I'm talking in 50+ years.
I don't think it's that relevant though. We have a new GM, that was funneled from a sports agency Vivek hired to help with the search, and so far I'd say his two draft picks were pretty solid.
 
I don't think it's that relevant though. We have a new GM, that was funneled from a sports agency Vivek hired to help with the search, and so far I'd say his two draft picks were pretty solid.
There's a huge gap though between "pretty solid" and "franchise player". There's about 30 pretty solid NBA players for every 1 franchise player. We've struggled under Pete and Vlade to even draft NBA caliber players but going back to Petrie before that who was a good drafter, he still never got a franchise player though he did get a couple of lower tier All Stars. It's just far easier said than done. There's a very real chance that we could spend another 50 years trying and failing to draft a franchise player.
 
It's not just about Doncic. Look at the entire draft history of the Kings. Go all the way back. When was the last time the Kings drafted a franchise player? I'm talking in 50+ years.
uhh so? Because we've been bad in the past, we shouldn't try to get a talent with the upside to eventually get to a title team?
 
uhh so? Because we've been bad in the past, we shouldn't try to get a talent with the upside to eventually get to a title team?
Or maybe if something hasn't happened in 50 years ( a span for which the Kings have consistently been one of the worst performing teams in the league), expecting it to happen sometime soon could be a mistake? I'm not saying we shouldn't try. I think it goes without saying that we've already been trying and failing at exactly that strategy. For the entire time I've been alive at least. It shouldn't be our only plan.
 
We've been one of the worst defensive teams ever for most of the last decade and someone is offering us one of the top 5 best individual defenders in the league. If he were perfect he would be untouchable. What's the alternative here, we wait for the team to draft a superstar for the first time in the 35 year history of the Kings in Sacramento?

Hardly anyone is showing up to the games. Judging by the game threads not a lot of people care about watching them on TV or streaming either. Either a very loud minority or a majority want us to supertank because that's the only way the "draft a superstar" strategy becomes remotely plausible so the worst case scenario here is that Ben Simmons (who looked 3 years ago like he was going to be a top 5 player in the league if he developed a halfway decent jumpshot) is so bad that the loudest complainers get exactly what they're asking for anyway.

If you (speaking generally) can't even bother to watch the team except to root for them to lose, and said team is currently in the middle of the longest playoff drought in league history, I don't see why you (speaking generally) should be clutching your shiny pearls while turning up your nose at a player who would instantly make us a lot better in the area we need the most help. We have Tyrese Haliburton right now and we're 18-30. If your reality is that Haliburton is better than a 3 x All Star, why are we 12 games under .500? I realize this is something Kings fans always do while their players are on rookie contracts. Every single one of them is a budding superstar until they're not. And then suddenly they magically become the reason we're losing and we can't pay anyone to take them. Don't you think it's time we tried something different?
getting Simmons and pairing him with fox isn’t enough to make this a viable playoff team especially if we trade all the shooters on the team to get him.
I don’t think this moronic team has ever truly committed to the tank in the last decade or ever. We always go on stupid run at the end of the season and blow our chance at lottery luck.
we need management with the courage to trade away everything on this team for draft capital and start over. Patching things with Simmons is rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. This entire squad needs to go except maybe maybe fox/Hali
 
It's not just about Doncic. Look at the entire draft history of the Kings. Go all the way back. When was the last time the Kings drafted a franchise player? I'm talking in 50+ years.
What's crazy is the one guy who had 1-3 years of franchise level basketball (don't bring up Cousins he's not even close to it) was Isaiah Thomas who they gave away.
 
getting Simmons and pairing him with fox isn’t enough to make this a viable playoff team especially if we trade all the shooters on the team to get him.
I don’t think this moronic team has ever truly committed to the tank in the last decade or ever. We always go on stupid run at the end of the season and blow our chance at lottery luck.
we need management with the courage to trade away everything on this team for draft capital and start over. Patching things with Simmons is rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. This entire squad needs to go except maybe maybe fox/Hali
You mean the same shooters who just went 6 for 33 from deep against the Celtics, right? :)

I'm not talking about patching things, this season is basically done at this point. I'm talking about building a team around two 25 year old All Star level players, one of which is a very gifted scorer and the other is a very gifted defender. Two players does not make a team but it's a start. We can find shooters to put around them.

I don't know what's happened around here recently that has caused everyone to suddenly have zero knowledge of the fact that we've already stripped down everything and rebuilt from scratch with draft picks twice since the last time we made the playoffs. We won 17 games in the 08-09 season, that was the worst record in the league. Petrie drafted Tyreke Evans 4th overall then a year later drafted DeMarcus Cousins 5th overall. Then in 2017 Vlade traded Cousins for Buddy Hield (the 6th pick in the previous draft) and put together three first round picks in the following draft (one of whom was top 5), traded for a former lottery pick who hadn't yet moved to the NBA from overseas (Bogdan), and a year later got the 2nd pick in the draft. Nearly our entire team in 2018 was composed of players on their rookie contracts. That was two complete and total rebuilds from scratch with top lottery picks just in the recent past.
 
You mean the same shooters who just went 6 for 33 from deep against the Celtics, right? :)

I'm not talking about patching things, this season is basically done at this point. I'm talking about building a team around two 25 year old All Star level players, one of which is a very gifted scorer and the other is a very gifted defender. Two players does not make a team but it's a start. We can find shooters to put around them.

I don't know what's happened around here recently that has caused everyone to suddenly have zero knowledge of the fact that we've already stripped down everything and rebuilt from scratch with draft picks twice since the last time we made the playoffs. We won 17 games in the 08-09 season, that was the worst record in the league. Petrie drafted Tyreke Evans 4th overall then a year later drafted DeMarcus Cousins 5th overall. Then in 2017 Vlade traded Cousins for Buddy Hield (the 6th pick in the previous draft) and put together three first round picks in the following draft (one of whom was top 5), traded for a former lottery pick who hadn't yet moved to the NBA from overseas (Bogdan), and a year later got the 2nd pick in the draft. Nearly our entire team in 2018 was composed of players on their rookie contracts. That was two complete and total rebuilds from scratch with top lottery picks just in the recent past.
Along your lines, this year the Kings just have to keep on losing and will receive a top 5 draft pick. Next year, and probably for the following year, same thing-Tank and receive top 5 draft pick. This can all be done on our own. Trades for more draft picks are good, if the Kings can swing it..but not absolutely necessary. Hinke lite.
 
It's not just about Doncic. Look at the entire draft history of the Kings. Go all the way back. When was the last time the Kings drafted a franchise player? I'm talking in 50+ years.
The past mistakes are irrelevant. Every other team out there is drafting franchise players. It's not like these guys just walk off the job and onto an NBA practice floor and become franchise players. They're all drafted by some team. The Kings are almost never in position to draft a franchise player because they never let themselves lose enough to get high enough in the draft where the majority of these guys are available. They scratch and claw their way to somewhere around the 8th seed every year in a pathetic attempt to make a run at it with the same players that failed the previous year. When that philosophy changes, the Kings will be up in the top 3, where the franchise players are normally available.

At that point people will point to the Bagley pick, which is still irrelevant. The Sixers drafted Fultz and Okafor up there as well but they gave themselves enough chances and wound up with Embiid and Simmons and were off and running into the playoffs. Something we can only dream about with our current franchise.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
What's crazy is the one guy who had 1-3 years of franchise level basketball (don't bring up Cousins he's not even close to it) was Isaiah Thomas who they gave away.
Lololol…..so IT was franchise level but the guy who put up all-star numbers wasn’t. You must be George Karl in real life. I think I just figured this out.
 
Lololol…..so IT was franchise level but the guy who put up all-star numbers wasn’t. You must be George Karl in real life. I think I just figured this out.
Nobody was ever critical of Cousins’s numbers. It was his attitude and the overall impact than made on his teammates and organization as a hole.

I don’t think it’s any surprise he’s on like his 7th team now, post injury, even though he still is putting up some “numbers” in very limited minutes.
 
Nobody was ever critical of Cousins’s numbers. It was his attitude and the overall impact than made on his teammates and organization as a hole.

I don’t think it’s any surprise he’s on like his 7th team now, post injury, even though he still is putting up some “numbers” in very limited minutes.
No one is denying that Cousins' attitude often dragged his team down. But he's on his 7th team because he's a 31 year old, 290 lb big man who tore his left Achilles, tore his left quadriceps, and then tore his left ACL in the span of about a year and a half.

In the season after the trade to the Pelicans, Boogie was averaging 25.2 ppg, 12.9 rpg, 5.4 apg, 1.6 blocks and 1.6 steals while shooting 35% from three. That New Orleans team went 48-34 and who knows how good the Cousins/Davis pairing could have been with more time. I just don't buy into the idea that the Kings weren't winners with Cousins because he was a net negative. If the last few years have shown nothing else, it's that this Kings organization itself is maybe the worst in all of sports and expecting Fox or Cousins or whoever to save it without a better structure, coach, and team is foolish.
 
The past mistakes are irrelevant. Every other team out there is drafting franchise players. It's not like these guys just walk off the job and onto an NBA practice floor and become franchise players. They're all drafted by some team. The Kings are almost never in position to draft a franchise player because they never let themselves lose enough to get high enough in the draft where the majority of these guys are available. They scratch and claw their way to somewhere around the 8th seed every year in a pathetic attempt to make a run at it with the same players that failed the previous year. When that philosophy changes, the Kings will be up in the top 3, where the franchise players are normally available.

At that point people will point to the Bagley pick, which is still irrelevant. The Sixers drafted Fultz and Okafor up there as well but they gave themselves enough chances and wound up with Embiid and Simmons and were off and running into the playoffs. Something we can only dream about with our current franchise.
This is jut more Kingsfan "woe is me" BS and I'm not having it anymore.

In 2009 the Kings were in position to draft a franchise player (picked 4th, Steph Curry taken 7th) and didn't.
In 2010 the Kings were in position to draft a franchise player (picked 5th, Paul George taken 10th) and didn't.
In 2011 the Kings were in position to draft a franchise player (picked 7th, Kawhi Leonard taken 15th) and didn't.
In 2012 the Kings were in position to draft a franchise player (picked 5th, Damian Lillard taken 6th) and didn't.
In 2013 the Kings were in position to draft a franchise player (picked 7th, Giannis Antetekounmpo taken 15th) and didn't.
In 2014 the Kings were in position to draft a franchise player (picked 8th, Nikola Jokic taken 41st) and didn't.
In 2015 it appears Karl Towns was the closest thing to a franchise player and we were not in position to take him (picked 6th, he was taken 1st).

The best players so far from the 2016 draft are Ben Simmons and Domantas Sabonis, ironically the two players we're possibly pursuing right now. We were not in position to draft Simmons (1st overall) but we could have drafted Sabonis (picked 8th, Sabonis was taken 11th).

In 2017 the Kings drafted Fox with the 5th pick and also had the 10th pick where they could have drafted Donovan Mitchell, Bam Adebayo, John Collns, or Jarrett Allen.

I'll skip 2018. The Kings didn't have a FRP in 2019. So far from the 2020 draft the best players have been LaMelo Ball, Tyrese Haliburton, Anthony Edwards, and Tyrese Maxey.

This whole idea that we're missing out on franchise players every year because we're not losing enough is either revisionist history cooked up to support a narrative Kings fans want to believe or everyone here has a very short memory.
 
McNair said that the Kings won't tank/fully rebuild. I believe him. I don't know if that's his decision (maybe) or Vivek's (more likely) but they aren't willing to blow everything up to start over.

McNair has also said that Fox and Haliburton are off the table and they are planning to build around them. I partially believe him. De'Aaron and Tyrese are almost certainly off the table because McNair didn't like any of the offers that he was presented and/or couldn't get any traction on offers he made to other teams.

So where does that leave things?

Maybe there's still a Simmons deal that involves Fox to a 3rd team and the Kings taking on Tobias Harris' contract. Depending on the details I might be in favor of that.

Could they get Sabonis while keeping Fox and Haliburton? Maybe. But I think you'd be looking at something like Barnes, Mitchell and 3 FRPs for Sabonis and filler. While he's a great fix with Fox and Haliburton on offense, that's a steep price for a guy that will make a terrible defensive team even worse. But depending on other moves, maybe worth considering.

Could they get Jerami Grant? Probably. But I don't see the value of a PF who isn't a playmaker, is a terrible rebounder, and isn't a true stretch 4. Grant is a good scorer and a decent defender but he's not on the right timeline, will be looking for a max deal after next season and isn't a great fit next to Fox and Haliburton which should be one of the top (if not THE) consideration if you're building around those two.

What other options are there?

Other than standing pat and hoping for some kind of miracle change from within, I think the only other real option is to deal Barnes, Hield, Bagley (if he has any value) and Holmes for pieces that fit better next to the two guards you say you want to build around. You have Thompson as filler salary and even Mitchell as a another piece to dangle in a trade. I like Davion, but just as on draft night he's not a great roster fit if your best two players (currently) are Haliburton and Fox. If you trade Fox to get Simmons then of course you keep him and start him with Hali and Simmons (ideally with two more shooters at the wing and big spot) but if not then at the very least you listen to offers for him.

The suggested trade of Holmes for PJ Washington and Ish Smith is along the lines McNair would have to look. Smith is just filler but Washington is the right age and the right skill set next to Fox and Haliburton. Good passer, pretty good defender, shoots it well from outside and a fairly low usage player.

So then who can you get for Barnes and Hield. I think you need a true rim protector who also isn't killed on perimeter switches. Queta might be that guy in time. He moves laterally and flips his hips better than I expected for a guy his size. I think you need a 3 & D wing in the starting lineup. I think you need a bench scorer who can create his own shot. Davis does some of this and isn't the defensive liability that Buddy is, but he's too inconsistent and you need another guy anyway. Maybe a wing or stretch 4 that can carry the offense.

If the Kings aren't going to take a big swing on a major player that's available (Simmons, Sabonis, please not Grant) then they have to assemble the right pieces around Fox and Haliburton. I'm not convinced you can build a winner with those two as your best players but I'm not sure what other option you have.

But you take that tact and hope you get lucky in the draft (Jabari Smith would be a good fit next to Tyrese and De'Aaron, Holmgren would be a low floor, high ceiling pick who could provide rim protection at the least while at most he could stretch the floor, be another connector, and score inside, especially if he gets stronger) and see what you can do.

I'm ready to be disappointed at the trade deadline but if there are deals out there, Barnes, Hield, Bagley, and Holmes should all be moved to try and rework things around the two young guards.
 
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McNair said that the Kings won't tank/fully rebuild. I believe him. I don't if that's his decision (maybe) or Vivek's (more likely) but they aren't willing to blow everything up to start over.

McNair has also said that Fox and Haliburton are off the table and they are planning to build around them. I partially believe him. De'Aaron and Tyrese are almost certainly off the table because McNair didn't like any of the offers that he was presented and/or couldn't get any traction on offers he made to other teams.

So where does that leave things?

Maybe there's still a Simmons deal that involves Fox to a 3rd team and the Kings taking on Tobias Harris' contract. Depending on the details I might be in favor of that.

Could they get Sabonis while keeping Fox and Haliburton? Maybe. But I think you'd be looking at something like Barnes, Mitchell and 3 FRPs for Sabonis and filler. While he's a great fix with Fox and Haliburton on offense, that's a steep price for a guy that will make a terrible defensive team even worse. But depending on other moves, maybe worth considering.

Could they get Jerami Grant? Probably. But I don't see the value of a PF who isn't a playmaker, is a terrible rebounder, and isn't a true stretch 4. Grant is a good scorer and a decent defender but he's not on the right timeline, will be looking for a max deal after next season and isn't a great fit next to Fox and Haliburton which should be one of the top (if not THE) consideration if you're building around those two.

What other options are there?

Other than standing pat and hoping for some kind of miracle change from within, I think the only other real option is to deal Barnes, Hield, Bagley (if he has any value) and Holmes for pieces that fit better next to the two guards you say you want to build around. You have Thompson as filler salary and even Mitchell as a another piece to dangle in a trade. I like Davion, but just as on draft night he's not a great roster fit if your best two players (currently) are Haliburton and Fox. If you trade Fox to get Simmons then of course you keep him and start him with Hali and Simmons (ideally with two more shooters at the wing and big spot) but if not then at the very least you listen to offers for him.

The suggested trade of Holmes for PJ Washington and Ish Smith is along the lines McNair would have to look. Smith is just filler but Washington is the right age and the right skill set next to Fox and Haliburton. Good passer, pretty good defender, shoots it well from outside and a fairly low usage player.

So then who can you get for Barnes and Hield. I think you need a true rim protector who also isn't killed on perimeter switches. Queta might be that guy in time. He moves laterally and flips his hips better than I expected for a guy his size. I think you need a 3 & D wing in the starting lineup. I think you need a bench scorer who can create his own shot. Davis does some of this and isn't the defensive liability that Buddy is, but he's too inconsistent and you need another guy anyway. Maybe a wing or stretch 4 that can carry the offense.

If the Kings aren't going to take a big swing on a major player that's available (Simmons, Sabonis, please not Grant) then they have to assemble the right pieces around Fox and Haliburton. I'm not convinced you can build a winner with those two as your best players but I'm not sure what other option you have.

But you take that tact and hope you get lucky in the draft (Jabari Smith would be a good fit next to Tyrese and De'Aaron, Holmgren would be a low floor, high ceiling pick who could provide rim protection at the least while at most he could stretch the floor, be another connector, and score inside, especially if he gets stronger) and see what you can do.

I'm ready to be disappointed at the trade deadline but if there are deals out there, Barnes, Hield, Bagley, and Holmes should all be moved to try and rework things around the two young guards.
Good post. I agree with you that trading for Grant would be a huge mistake and would be the equivalent of a McNair panic move. If it happens, McNair is going to put a band aid over it and will say Grant is a 3 and D, who fixes the perimeter defending issues while upgrading the wing spot. He would. The issue is dude wants to be a primary option, is a ball stopper, and shoots the three about as well as Fox. Playing him next to Fox is suicide and running Fox and Grant next to Hali is a recipe for a treadmilling team. The trade will likely require Mitchell, Bagley, and a first going to Detroit. He would likely follow that up by going after Turner and sending two firsts to Indy (would likely need to acquire a first from somewhere else). In those two moves, McNair effectively mortgages the Kings 5 to 10 year future to make the playoffs this year and to save his behind. And it would be a treadmilling disaster for this franchise.

To me, it's Sabonis, Simmons, or trade everyone except Hali and tank for Jabari Smith in the draft. Anything outside of that and McNair should be fired.
 
You mean the same shooters who just went 6 for 33 from deep against the Celtics, right? :)

I'm not talking about patching things, this season is basically done at this point. I'm talking about building a team around two 25 year old All Star level players, one of which is a very gifted scorer and the other is a very gifted defender. Two players does not make a team but it's a start. We can find shooters to put around them.

I don't know what's happened around here recently that has caused everyone to suddenly have zero knowledge of the fact that we've already stripped down everything and rebuilt from scratch with draft picks twice since the last time we made the playoffs. We won 17 games in the 08-09 season, that was the worst record in the league. Petrie drafted Tyreke Evans 4th overall then a year later drafted DeMarcus Cousins 5th overall. Then in 2017 Vlade traded Cousins for Buddy Hield (the 6th pick in the previous draft) and put together three first round picks in the following draft (one of whom was top 5), traded for a former lottery pick who hadn't yet moved to the NBA from overseas (Bogdan), and a year later got the 2nd pick in the draft. Nearly our entire team in 2018 was composed of players on their rookie contracts. That was two complete and total rebuilds from scratch with top lottery picks just in the recent past.
Yeah we tanked before with Boogie and Evans. But we probably needed to commit to that more. And of course Gerbil let IT walk for nothing and got us Grevis Vasquez for Evans. So…yeah we definitely need a good front office to pull it all off.
 
McNair said that the Kings won't tank/fully rebuild. I believe him. I don't know if that's his decision (maybe) or Vivek's (more likely) but they aren't willing to blow everything up to start over.

McNair has also said that Fox and Haliburton are off the table and they are planning to build around them. I partially believe him. De'Aaron and Tyrese are almost certainly off the table because McNair didn't like any of the offers that he was presented and/or couldn't get any traction on offers he made to other teams.

So where does that leave things?

Maybe there's still a Simmons deal that involves Fox to a 3rd team and the Kings taking on Tobias Harris' contract. Depending on the details I might be in favor of that.

Could they get Sabonis while keeping Fox and Haliburton? Maybe. But I think you'd be looking at something like Barnes, Mitchell and 3 FRPs for Sabonis and filler. While he's a great fix with Fox and Haliburton on offense, that's a steep price for a guy that will make a terrible defensive team even worse. But depending on other moves, maybe worth considering.

Could they get Jerami Grant? Probably. But I don't see the value of a PF who isn't a playmaker, is a terrible rebounder, and isn't a true stretch 4. Grant is a good scorer and a decent defender but he's not on the right timeline, will be looking for a max deal after next season and isn't a great fit next to Fox and Haliburton which should be one of the top (if not THE) consideration if you're building around those two.

What other options are there?

Other than standing pat and hoping for some kind of miracle change from within, I think the only other real option is to deal Barnes, Hield, Bagley (if he has any value) and Holmes for pieces that fit better next to the two guards you say you want to build around. You have Thompson as filler salary and even Mitchell as a another piece to dangle in a trade. I like Davion, but just as on draft night he's not a great roster fit if your best two players (currently) are Haliburton and Fox. If you trade Fox to get Simmons then of course you keep him and start him with Hali and Simmons (ideally with two more shooters at the wing and big spot) but if not then at the very least you listen to offers for him.

The suggested trade of Holmes for PJ Washington and Ish Smith is along the lines McNair would have to look. Smith is just filler but Washington is the right age and the right skill set next to Fox and Haliburton. Good passer, pretty good defender, shoots it well from outside and a fairly low usage player.

So then who can you get for Barnes and Hield. I think you need a true rim protector who also isn't killed on perimeter switches. Queta might be that guy in time. He moves laterally and flips his hips better than I expected for a guy his size. I think you need a 3 & D wing in the starting lineup. I think you need a bench scorer who can create his own shot. Davis does some of this and isn't the defensive liability that Buddy is, but he's too inconsistent and you need another guy anyway. Maybe a wing or stretch 4 that can carry the offense.

If the Kings aren't going to take a big swing on a major player that's available (Simmons, Sabonis, please not Grant) then they have to assemble the right pieces around Fox and Haliburton. I'm not convinced you can build a winner with those two as your best players but I'm not sure what other option you have.

But you take that tact and hope you get lucky in the draft (Jabari Smith would be a good fit next to Tyrese and De'Aaron, Holmgren would be a low floor, high ceiling pick who could provide rim protection at the least while at most he could stretch the floor, be another connector, and score inside, especially if he gets stronger) and see what you can do.

I'm ready to be disappointed at the trade deadline but if there are deals out there, Barnes, Hield, Bagley, and Holmes should all be moved to try and rework things around the two young guards.
It’s true that Monte said he would not do that. But then again, no one besides Hinkie has ever admitted to tanking. I’m still hoping we commit to a multi year tank and get good picks this year and next. That’s what it will take to turn this around. Well that and a good coach.
 
This is jut more Kingsfan "woe is me" BS and I'm not having it anymore.

In 2009 the Kings were in position to draft a franchise player (picked 4th, Steph Curry taken 7th) and didn't.
In 2010 the Kings were in position to draft a franchise player (picked 5th, Paul George taken 10th) and didn't.
In 2011 the Kings were in position to draft a franchise player (picked 7th, Kawhi Leonard taken 15th) and didn't.
In 2012 the Kings were in position to draft a franchise player (picked 5th, Damian Lillard taken 6th) and didn't.
In 2013 the Kings were in position to draft a franchise player (picked 7th, Giannis Antetekounmpo taken 15th) and didn't.
In 2014 the Kings were in position to draft a franchise player (picked 8th, Nikola Jokic taken 41st) and didn't.
In 2015 it appears Karl Towns was the closest thing to a franchise player and we were not in position to take him (picked 6th, he was taken 1st).

The best players so far from the 2016 draft are Ben Simmons and Domantas Sabonis, ironically the two players we're possibly pursuing right now. We were not in position to draft Simmons (1st overall) but we could have drafted Sabonis (picked 8th, Sabonis was taken 11th).

In 2017 the Kings drafted Fox with the 5th pick and also had the 10th pick where they could have drafted Donovan Mitchell, Bam Adebayo, John Collns, or Jarrett Allen.

I'll skip 2018. The Kings didn't have a FRP in 2019. So far from the 2020 draft the best players have been LaMelo Ball, Tyrese Haliburton, Anthony Edwards, and Tyrese Maxey.

This whole idea that we're missing out on franchise players every year because we're not losing enough is either revisionist history cooked up to support a narrative Kings fans want to believe or everyone here has a very short memory.
We're both fully aware of who the Kings did take and who they didn't take in the draft. We just disagree on philosophy. I'm basing my philosophy on getting the best odds at drafting the best players and your philosophy seems to be closer to it doesn't really matter if you pick 1st or 8th, there are still good players available on the board. You aren't wrong about there still being good players and the Kings missing them nearly every time (minus Hali) but you can't argue that the best players on average are taken at the top of the board.

Edwards, Wiseman and Ball went in the top 3. Hali is better than Wiseman, the other two are better than Hali.

Year before, Zion, Morant and Barrett went in the top 3. The Kings usual draft slot 6-10 had Culver, Coby White, Jaxon Hayes, Hachimura and Reddish.

Year before, Ayton, Bagley and Doncic went in the top 3. The Kings usual draft slot 6-10 had Bamba, Carter Jr, Sexton, Knox, Mikal.

Year before, Fultz, Ball and Tatum went in the top 3. 6-10 was Isaac, Markkanen, Ntilikina, Smith Jr and Zach Collins.

Year before, Simmons, Ingram and Jaylen Brown top 3. 6-10 was Hield, Jamal Murray, Chriss, Poeltl, Maker.

It's the same variation of that nearly every year. You almost always have much better odds of drafting the better players in the top 3 than you do in the 6-10 range. You can't play revisionist and say that we should have taken players that weren't even in lottery consideration or consideration for the spot we were picking in.

If we assume that we have the exact same scouting abilities and you and I play a draft game from here on out and I have a top 3 pick while you pick in the Kings normal slots, I'll pick the better player way more often than you will. The only reason why it seems fairly even to you right now is because you're using revisionist history to pick your players but if we pick in real time, you simply aren't taking Jokic with the 8th pick that year. You probably aren't taking Giannis at 7 either. We're both going to swing and miss but you're going to swing and miss more because you have higher odds of doing so.

Obviously the Kings have done about as poorly as you possibly could in the draft. You could more than likely have just taken 5 players mocked around the Kings draft slot and closed your eyes and pointed to one each year and built a better team with that method. That may be true but it doesn't mean I'm throwing away better odds at getting better players because of past mistakes by pee poor GMs. Those mistakes have zero bearing on the draft odds moving forward.
 
We're both fully aware of who the Kings did take and who they didn't take in the draft. We just disagree on philosophy. I'm basing my philosophy on getting the best odds at drafting the best players and your philosophy seems to be closer to it doesn't really matter if you pick 1st or 8th, there are still good players available on the board. You aren't wrong about there still being good players and the Kings missing them nearly every time (minus Hali) but you can't argue that the best players on average are taken at the top of the board.

Edwards, Wiseman and Ball went in the top 3. Hali is better than Wiseman, the other two are better than Hali.

Year before, Zion, Morant and Barrett went in the top 3. The Kings usual draft slot 6-10 had Culver, Coby White, Jaxon Hayes, Hachimura and Reddish.

Year before, Ayton, Bagley and Doncic went in the top 3. The Kings usual draft slot 6-10 had Bamba, Carter Jr, Sexton, Knox, Mikal.

Year before, Fultz, Ball and Tatum went in the top 3. 6-10 was Isaac, Markkanen, Ntilikina, Smith Jr and Zach Collins.

Year before, Simmons, Ingram and Jaylen Brown top 3. 6-10 was Hield, Jamal Murray, Chriss, Poeltl, Maker.

It's the same variation of that nearly every year. You almost always have much better odds of drafting the better players in the top 3 than you do in the 6-10 range. You can't play revisionist and say that we should have taken players that weren't even in lottery consideration or consideration for the spot we were picking in.

If we assume that we have the exact same scouting abilities and you and I play a draft game from here on out and I have a top 3 pick while you pick in the Kings normal slots, I'll pick the better player way more often than you will. The only reason why it seems fairly even to you right now is because you're using revisionist history to pick your players but if we pick in real time, you simply aren't taking Jokic with the 8th pick that year. You probably aren't taking Giannis at 7 either. We're both going to swing and miss but you're going to swing and miss more because you have higher odds of doing so.

Obviously the Kings have done about as poorly as you possibly could in the draft. You could more than likely have just taken 5 players mocked around the Kings draft slot and closed your eyes and pointed to one each year and built a better team with that method. That may be true but it doesn't mean I'm throwing away better odds at getting better players because of past mistakes by pee poor GMs. Those mistakes have zero bearing on the draft odds moving forward.
You're looking at the last 5 drafts-- most of these players still haven't developed into who they're going to be yet. I looked at the last 20. It's somewhat striking when you go back and look at the long-term results that the best player in most drafts ended up being picked outside of the top 5. Maybe there are better players available in the top 5 on average than the players available in the 7-15 range but better players don't earn you championships, franchise players do. Isn't that the whole point of arguing for tanking? We've had pretty good players all through this endless rebuild. The closest we got to a franchise player was Cousins (imo) and he was inconsistent and his attitude caused him to clash with almost everyone else in the organization.

Just in the drafts you looked at, which of these players do you want right now to get you into a championship series? Anthony Edwards, James Wiseman, LaMelo Ball, Zion Williamson, Ja Morant, RJ Barrett, DeAndre Ayton, Marvin Bagley, Luka Doncic, Markelle Fultz, Lonzo Ball, Jayson Tatum, Ben Simmons, Brandon Ingram, Jaylen Brown. Most of these guys would help us but none of them has led a team to the Finals yet. It's too soon to say but looking at the results of the previous decade, it seems just as likely that the franchise players in these drafts are not included in that group. And anyway, we have an opportunity to trade for one of them right now - which is what this whole discussion is about. Yes bet on talent. But isn't trading for a former #1 pick with 3 All Star appearances, an All NBA (3rd team) nod and 2 All Defense nods in his first 4 seasons a better bet than rolling the dice on maybe finding someone like that in the draft?
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
Nobody was ever critical of Cousins’s numbers. It was his attitude and the overall impact than made on his teammates and organization as a hole.

I don’t think it’s any surprise he’s on like his 7th team now, post injury, even though he still is putting up some “numbers” in very limited minutes.
Michael Malone sure didn’t have a problem with him
 
We should do an experiment
We're both fully aware of who the Kings did take and who they didn't take in the draft. We just disagree on philosophy. I'm basing my philosophy on getting the best odds at drafting the best players and your philosophy seems to be closer to it doesn't really matter if you pick 1st or 8th, there are still good players available on the board. You aren't wrong about there still being good players and the Kings missing them nearly every time (minus Hali) but you can't argue that the best players on average are taken at the top of the board.

Edwards, Wiseman and Ball went in the top 3. Hali is better than Wiseman, the other two are better than Hali.

Year before, Zion, Morant and Barrett went in the top 3. The Kings usual draft slot 6-10 had Culver, Coby White, Jaxon Hayes, Hachimura and Reddish.

Year before, Ayton, Bagley and Doncic went in the top 3. The Kings usual draft slot 6-10 had Bamba, Carter Jr, Sexton, Knox, Mikal.

Year before, Fultz, Ball and Tatum went in the top 3. 6-10 was Isaac, Markkanen, Ntilikina, Smith Jr and Zach Collins.

Year before, Simmons, Ingram and Jaylen Brown top 3. 6-10 was Hield, Jamal Murray, Chriss, Poeltl, Maker.

It's the same variation of that nearly every year. You almost always have much better odds of drafting the better players in the top 3 than you do in the 6-10 range. You can't play revisionist and say that we should have taken players that weren't even in lottery consideration or consideration for the spot we were picking in.

If we assume that we have the exact same scouting abilities and you and I play a draft game from here on out and I have a top 3 pick while you pick in the Kings normal slots, I'll pick the better player way more often than you will. The only reason why it seems fairly even to you right now is because you're using revisionist history to pick your players but if we pick in real time, you simply aren't taking Jokic with the 8th pick that year. You probably aren't taking Giannis at 7 either. We're both going to swing and miss but you're going to swing and miss more because you have higher odds of doing so.

Obviously the Kings have done about as poorly as you possibly could in the draft. You could more than likely have just taken 5 players mocked around the Kings draft slot and closed your eyes and pointed to one each year and built a better team with that method. That may be true but it doesn't mean I'm throwing away better odds at getting better players because of past mistakes by pee poor GMs. Those mistakes have zero bearing on the draft odds moving forward.
just because a player was drafted 6-10 doesn’t mean they were projected to go there or the kings would have chosen them there. Teams pick based off need or perceived need or sometimes just reach and players slide. Like how we got ty. So I see that you can’t use revisionist history to pick players in the 2nd round but there are players chosen later that might have been picked earlier but slid due to teams drafting for need. Like I believe if we had a good owner and Petrie at gm, we might have taken giannis early, I mean he did something crazy like that with Peja. Or even draft kawhi instead of a money grab like jimmer. Either way, arguments can be made on both sides but it all comes down to ownership and front office. Yes better odds of a star at 1-3, yes it’s possible to get stars later on, but the constant is the need for the front office to choose the right guy.