Thought Experiment, Do you Keep George Karl If He Makes the Playoffs?

[sdballer]

Any one who thinks Karl is going to change should listen to his latest post practice interview (up on Cowbell Kingdom). Some highlights:

1. Our bad defense is because of bad offense, leading to transition points. Not so much a problem with 5 on 5.
2. That Acy may keep starting over WCS because we need better defensive intensity and young guys don't do as well starting.
3. That Ben could lose the spot again to Marco (as early as the second half of the next game).
4. That we don't want to slow down-we play best when "fast" and that the TO's aren't related to pace. That fixing TO's is most important issue

So basically, if we just keep doing what Karl does (but better).

 

[pshn80]

Any one who thinks Karl is going to change should listen to his latest post practice interview (up on Cowbell Kingdom). Some highlights:

1. Our bad defense is because of bad offense, leading to transition points. Not so much a problem with 5 on 5.
2. That Acy may keep starting over WCS because we need better defensive intensity and young guys don't do as well starting.
3. That Ben could lose the spot again to Marco (as early as the second half of the next game).
4. That we don't want to slow down-we play best when "fast" and that the TO's aren't related to pace. That fixing TO's is most important issue

So basically, if we just keep doing what Karl does (but better).

Well, he had responses to most of our concerns. Good interview.

 

[sdballer]

Well, he had responses to most of our concerns. Good interview.

Of course they were predictable responses that suggest despite being threatened into slowing the game down and focusing on d, he will instead be reverting back to "let's play fast". But sure, he addressed the concerns and everyone should feel comforted that we will continue to see the mis-fitting approach to our roster that we've come to expect

 

[Bricklayer]

Well, if it doesn't work, he will clearly be fired in 28 games, or less, so, whatever. There's no real extended period of stupidity threatened.

 

[Sac.1989]

Karls a moron. He's here because he knows he'll (slowly) add to his winning record and wont have to leave 8 mill on the table to walk away which is clearly what we want.

doomed hire from the start.

even the naysayers will admit we will go as far as Boogie puts us on his shoulders and carrys us - long may 30 and 20 games continue.

time to inspire and pull together your teammates boog - team meetings every game post game. Keep the gang together - by all accounts togetherness in the locker room isnt an issue at all. Keep the band playing

 

[Bosnian Diehard]

Karls a moron. He's here because he knows he'll (slowly) add to his winning record and wont have to leave 8 mill on the table to walk away which is clearly what we want.

doomed hire from the start.

even the naysayers will admit we will go as far as Boogie puts us on his shoulders and carrys us - long may 30 and 20 games continue.

time to inspire and pull together your teammates boog - team meetings every game post game. Keep the gang together - by all accounts togetherness in the locker room isnt an issue at all. Keep the band playing

I agree on the idea of us going as far Cuz takes us. If Cuz plays like he did in January, I wouldn't be surprised with us going 18-10.

 

[ParniValjak]

Any one who thinks Karl is going to change should listen to his latest post practice interview (up on Cowbell Kingdom). Some highlights:

1. Our bad defense is because of bad offense, leading to transition points. Not so much a problem with 5 on 5.
2. That Acy may keep starting over WCS because we need better defensive intensity and young guys don't do as well starting.
3. That Ben could lose the spot again to Marco (as early as the second half of the next game).
4. That we don't want to slow down-we play best when "fast" and that the TO's aren't related to pace. That fixing TO's is most important issue

So basically, if we just keep doing what Karl does (but better).

This is one of the reasons I want him gone regardless of whether or not this team makes the play offs. Continue playing the same way an we won't make it. It's pretty simple.

 

[miltonap]

What a moron

 

[ArcoKings]

It's not impossible that the Kings make it into the playoffs but improbable that the Kings make it into the playoffs. Not only do the Kings have to win most of their games but a few other teams need to lose plenty of their games so the math can work in favor of Sacramento. The Kings do not control their destiny. It's a difficult position to be in.

FWIW, in the above poll I voted YES. Karl would keep his job going into 2016-2017.

 

[hrdboild]

Well, if it doesn't work, he will clearly be fired in 28 games, or less, so, whatever. There's no real extended period of stupidity threatened.

I hope you're right about this.

 

[kingsboi]

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Well, he had responses to most of our concerns. Good interview.

That's one way to look at it.

 

[randymoss1881]

I want Dave Blatt in here next year!!

 

[mac]

This is one of the reasons I want him gone regardless of whether or not this team makes the play offs. Continue playing the same way an we won't make it. It's pretty simple.

But that's contradictory isn't it? If the team makes the playoffs then by your logic it either means that Karl can change (in which case your logic for wanting to fire him is flawed) or that Karl wasn't wrong and hence doesn't necessarily need to change (in which case you are firing him because you believe he can't win despite him winning). The whole point of this exercise is the premise that we do make the playoffs.

 

[NewArena]

This is one of the reasons I want him gone regardless of whether or not this team makes the play offs. Continue playing the same way an we won't make it. It's pretty simple.

we aren't making the playoffs if thats Karls mentality. forget it

 

[ParniValjak]

But that's contradictory isn't it? If the team makes the playoffs then by your logic it either means that Karl can change (in which case your logic for wanting to fire him is flawed) or that Karl wasn't wrong and hence doesn't necessarily need to change (in which case you are firing him because you believe he can't win despite him winning). The whole point of this exercise is the premise that we do make the playoffs.

There are a number of reasons why the team could make the playoffs and one could be in spite of Karl.

Making the playoffs is a short term goal. I was us to build a culture of winning and winning the right way. If you are happy with Karl's junk ball that doesn't utilize his players correctly and 1st round exits then you are welcome to it. I am not interested in fool's goal.

All the drama caused by Karl in large part this year is not the culture I want. It's toxic and will never be successful in the long term. He has worn out his welcome everywhere he has gone and it's no different here. There is a reason he has never won a championship despite having a lot of wins. There is also a reason why he has been a constant 1st round exit coach ever since he switched from being defensive minded coach to offense and pace. Think about that for a second!

 

[dude12]

Karl is a stubborn old man and his answers in that interview is probably a reason why Wahlberg was released.

In the Sac Bee today in the pre game article, Rondo is talking about how he and Ben have decided to pick up the pressure on opposing guards, pick them up earlier. Probably goes against what Karl wants ......not that he gives a crap on the defensive side.

 

[IfAt1st]

The answers listed from that interview is predictably delusional... or is the term "cognitive dissonance"?

#1 is flat-out delusional, and blatantly inaccurate. The problem with the defense is NOT just transitional (as already evidenced/proven by multiple articles showing him exactly what the problems are... yet he predictably ignores the reality staring everyone except him right in the face).
#2 is blatantly age-ist and discriminatory. Concluding rookies can;t play as good of defense as a vet when starting is, frankly, a firing offense. It means he doesn;t coach based on ability - he coaches based on his biases and preferences, regardless of how they play.
#3 is completely ignoring the 10-game stretch where Marco was one of the worst players in the NBA, and already anointing Marco more minutes than Ben (again, regardless of their play this year).
#4 is so arguable there could be a multi-page thread about it. (i.e. Yrs, the turnovers ARE related to pace, but yes, turnovers are an important issue).

 

[dude12]

I wonder if George has decided to start Acy in response to the firing of Wahlberg...you know because Vlade drafted WCS.....and before others claim that there is no way Karl would be concerned with doing something like this....Yes he would. All you have to do is look at his answers in the interview......dude is a stubborn old guy or he's lost his mind..... Which one is it?

 

[whozit]

I wonder if George has decided to start Acy in response to the firing of Wahlberg...you know because Vlade drafted WCS.....and before others claim that there is no way Karl would be concerned with doing something like this....Yes he would. All you have to do is look at his answers in the interview......dude is a stubborn old guy or he's lost his mind..... Which one is it?

Both?

 

[Kings_on_the_RiSE]

Both?

This.

 

[mac]

There are a number of reasons why the team could make the playoffs and one could be in spite of Karl.

Making the playoffs is a short term goal. I was us to build a culture of winning and winning the right way. If you are happy with Karl's junk ball that doesn't utilize his players correctly and 1st round exits then you are welcome to it. I am not interested in fool's goal.

All the drama caused by Karl in large part this year is not the culture I want. It's toxic and will never be successful in the long term. He has worn out his welcome everywhere he has gone and it's no different here. There is a reason he has never won a championship despite having a lot of wins. There is also a reason why he has been a constant 1st round exit coach ever since he switched from being defensive minded coach to offense and pace. Think about that for a second!

That's fine, but that was not your original point which I was picking at. Your point was: I want to fire Karl regardless whether we make the playoffs because he won't change his style, and doing so will not allow us to make the playoffs (unless by "make it" you meant "winning a championship").

As to your point, I don't see Karl as a long-term coach who's going to be coaching us to multiple championships if that were even possible. His age is a very real concern. That said, IF he makes the playoffs this season then regardless of style or whatever I think you need to keep him. You fire the coach who just got the franchise it's first playoff shot in 10 years in what would be an incredible second-half turnaround and it would just solidify the franchise's position as the laughing stock of the league. Fans here may not think much of Karl these days but I doubt that's the case in the coaching community. No legitimate established coach would be willing to come here, nor would any big time FA, and your only shot would be at finding a Mike Malone/ Brad Stevens (young coach ...) and giving it another 2-3 years for the team to get it together and learn a new system etc. Keep Karl, make another playoff run next year, and if we're still just a fringe playoff team barely securing the 8th seed then you can consider firing him instead of keeping him for what I think would be the last year of his contract. If we're a solid playoff team, I see no reason not to keep him for another year, even if we're a 1st round exit, which in and of itself shouldn't be a measure as to how well we're doing. A franchise out of the playoffs for as long as we have shouldn't expect to be making championship runs in its first 2 seasons of making the playoffs. Regardless, you have a team that has been to the playoffs twice under Karl, has more experience winning and if as it turns out as you so strongly believe, that Karl cannot win in the playoffs, then it will be obvious and you can hire a new coach to make the necessary adjustments for a serious championship run. You'd have a core in place that has experience in the playoffs playing together, and so making those adjustments will be far easier.

There's no such thing as not having a culture of winning when you're winning. Winning under Karl in itself builds a culture of wining. I'm not too interested in "winning the right way" at this point when we're 10 years out of the playoffs and an abysmal franchise all around.

 

[Merdiesel]

This team going 22-6 the rest of the way out would be one of the biggest stories in the NBA.

Wouldn't it be hypocritical for us to be against the Malone firing and support a Karl firing in this case?

 

[VF21]

There are a number of reasons why the team could make the playoffs and one could be in spite of Karl.

Making the playoffs is a short term goal. I was us to build a culture of winning and winning the right way. If you are happy with Karl's junk ball that doesn't utilize his players correctly and 1st round exits then you are welcome to it. I am not interested in fool's goal.

All the drama caused by Karl in large part this year is not the culture I want. It's toxic and will never be successful in the long term. He has worn out his welcome everywhere he has gone and it's no different here. There is a reason he has never won a championship despite having a lot of wins. There is also a reason why he has been a constant 1st round exit coach ever since he switched from being defensive minded coach to offense and pace. Think about that for a second!

I wish we had a "I agree with this post sooooo much" button.

 

[ParniValjak]

That's fine, but that was not your original point which I was picking at. Your point was: I want to fire Karl regardless whether we make the playoffs because he won't change his style, and doing so will not allow us to make the playoffs (unless by "make it" you meant "winning a championship").

As to your point, I don't see Karl as a long-term coach who's going to be coaching us to multiple championships if that were even possible. His age is a very real concern. That said, IF he makes the playoffs this season then regardless of style or whatever I think you need to keep him. You fire the coach who just got the franchise it's first playoff shot in 10 years in what would be an incredible second-half turnaround and it would just solidify the franchise's position as the laughing stock of the league. Fans here may not think much of Karl these days but I doubt that's the case in the coaching community. No legitimate established coach would be willing to come here, nor would any big time FA, and your only shot would be at finding a Mike Malone/ Brad Stevens (young coach ...) and giving it another 2-3 years for the team to get it together and learn a new system etc. Keep Karl, make another playoff run next year, and if we're still just a fringe playoff team barely securing the 8th seed then you can consider firing him instead of keeping him for what I think would be the last year of his contract. If we're a solid playoff team, I see no reason not to keep him for another year, even if we're a 1st round exit, which in and of itself shouldn't be a measure as to how well we're doing. A franchise out of the playoffs for as long as we have shouldn't expect to be making championship runs in its first 2 seasons of making the playoffs. Regardless, you have a team that has been to the playoffs twice under Karl, has more experience winning and if as it turns out as you so strongly believe, that Karl cannot win in the playoffs, then it will be obvious and you can hire a new coach to make the necessary adjustments for a serious championship run. You'd have a core in place that has experience in the playoffs playing together, and so making those adjustments will be far easier.

There's no such thing as not having a culture of winning when you're winning. Winning under Karl in itself builds a culture of wining. I'm not too interested in "winning the right way" at this point when we're 10 years out of the playoffs and an abysmal franchise all around.

You might be insecure enough to worry about the perception from the outside. I couldn't give a flying **** about what the perception is. If the dynamic in toxic as it has been ever since the off-season, then I am not interested in keeping a coach that adds fuel to the fire. I couldn't give a **** if it's Phil Jackson for all I care.

The only saving grace for Karl would be a championship, in other words pigs could fly. He is not making the play offs this year. As soon as you become a mathematical chance, it means you are not a realistic one.

I want a coach who will build culture, unity and team based on defensive philosophy and will tailor both the defense and the offense to the personnel he has on his roster. It really is that simple. You seem to be defending Karl at every chance you get, that is your choice and a very flawed one. The drama and toxicity that has followed this team through the off-season and into the season has started and continues to be escalated by Karl. To me that is a HUGE NO NO! Coach needs to preach unity and lead by example. All we've had from Karl is a whole lot of finger pointing and throwing players under the bus. I certainly have no interest in having a coach like that on this team. The dude has been a cancer everywhere he went and his egoistical approach of pointing fingers and throwing players under the bus has worn out his welcome at every basketball team he has been to.

 

[Glenn]

I'd like to see pigs fly.

 

[lawlman91]

Meanwhile, in the Kings training facility...

 

[mac]

This team going 22-6 the rest of the way out would be one of the biggest stories in the NBA.

Wouldn't it be hypocritical for us to be against the Malone firing and support a Karl firing in this case?

But. But. Toxic. Not winning the right away. Etc.

 

[VF21]

But. But. Toxic. Not winning the right away. Etc.

Explain why Denver fired him.

 

[mac]

You might be insecure enough to worry about the perception from the outside. I couldn't give a flying **** about what the perception is. If the dynamic in toxic as it has been ever since the off-season, then I am not interested in keeping a coach that adds fuel to the fire. I couldn't give a **** if it's Phil Jackson for all I care.

The only saving grace for Karl would be a championship, in other words pigs could fly. He is not making the play offs this year. As soon as you become a mathematical chance, it means you are not a realistic one.

I want a coach who will build culture, unity and team based on defensive philosophy and will tailor both the defense and the offense to the personnel he has on his roster. It really is that simple. You seem to be defending Karl at every chance you get, that is your choice and a very flawed one. The drama and toxicity that has followed this team through the off-season and into the season has started and continues to be escalated by Karl. To me that is a HUGE NO NO! Coach needs to preach unity and lead by example. All we've had from Karl is a whole lot of finger pointing and throwing players under the bus. I certainly have no interest in having a coach like that on this team. The dude has been a cancer everywhere he went and his egoistical approach of pointing fingers and throwing players under the bus has worn out his welcome at every basketball team he has been to.

You'll have to first prove how Karl is the one "escalating" the toxicity other than your own interpretation that what he's emphasizing will not win games.

You're missing the point of this entire thread. This is not a "should we fire Karl after the season" thread. The ENTIRE premise is that this team makes the playoffs. Do you know how many games we would need to win to do so? Do you realise what sort of turnaround that implies? Drama and toxicity means absolutely nothing if at the end of the day the team is able to pull off that number of wins. All it goes to show is that you're more interested in having things done the way you want than the actual wins that the product on the court achieves. And that's the reason I seem to be defending Karl so much. I'm not defending Karl, I'm defending sound rationality. You have stated yourself that nothing short of a championship would convince you to keep Karl, because he's such a cancer. You're even willing to believe that these same players can turn things around so drastically IN SPITE of coaching. You're so damn sure that this team cannot win with Karl that in a thread about "What if the Kings win with Karl" you argue that the Kings can't win with Karl. And you accuse me of being the insecure one.

 

[mac]

Explain why Denver fired him.

Why was Lionel Hollins fired? Why was Mark Jackson fired? How is Denver doing now? The point is not so much whether Karl is indeed a "cancer" or not (to pick up on already used terminology), but whether we can get wins. I don't see how fans that have been starved of a 30 win season for so long can't appreciate that. If we win, which is the very point of this thread, then I could care less about who's getting thrown under the bus and whatnot, and I'm pretty sure Cousins, if he's truly all about winning, won't care either.

Denver had made the playoffs on 50-win seasons for a good number of years. They decided at that point that Karl wasn't getting them anywhere, that whatever antics weren't worth it, and chose to rebuild instead. Mark Jackson had GS established a clear solid playoff team before they decided firing him was necessary to take the next step. Same with Lionel Hollins - Memphis was established as a PO team and contender. At that point it's a lot easier to bring in a new coach, make some tweaks and try to take that next step. We haven't tasted the playoffs in so many years and yet we're all ready to fire the coach who got us there? (AGAIN, ASSUMING WE MAKE THE PLAYOFFS WHICH IS THE WHOLE POINT)