The ones who are left
- Thread starter VF21
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Yeah I just don't see what I did to deserve the ridicule. Basically I've read a lot of three different things: 'let's get Artest cause Indy doesn't want him' or 'let's get KG cause he's the man and Minny is tired of him' or 'Petrie is God, he'll do something brilliant'. Those are valid opinions, but they don't really require any effort or creativity. I guess I was just looking for some kind of recognition for actually doing a little research and coming up with a reasonable solution (maybe unrealistic, but certainly less so than Artest or KG).
Whatever. Next time I'll just keep it to myself.
(Oooh, I can't wait for the biting come back on this one.)
Whatever. Next time I'll just keep it to myself.
(Oooh, I can't wait for the biting come back on this one.)
Our three main remaining players are soft and unathletic. A combo that has NEVER won in the NBA, and never will. They aren't even as good as Washington's trio, let alone the Spurs or Suns. We are deluding ourselves if we think our softy 2nd/3rd/4th options are anything but a shadow of the team we once were. The guys who made it all happen are all gone now. What we're left with is just a bunch of glorified roleplayers, limited to playing within our system and without even a single player amongst the league's elite.
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Peja Stojakovic isn't amongst the league's elite? He was an MVP candidate last year. The second leading scorer. Ask people who the five best shooters in the world are and they'll always mention Stojakovic. Brad Miller is widely considered to be a top 5 center which is pretty elite. Mike Bibby has one of the best outside shots in the league at the PG position. He's a number two overall pick and a proven playoff force in years past. If you insist on calling the glass half empty, that's your business. But I think there's just as much reason for seeing it half full. It just depends which angle you look from.
Look, I didn't "stick it to you." If anyone "stuck it" to you, it was Mad D; what I did was nothing more than give him a little affirmation.
Uhm, actually, you essentially said that the Heat were overrated because all they had were Wade, O'Neal and a bunch of roleplayers. I did not say that we needed a superstar to win a championship; I did not even speak as to whether or not that formula applies to the Kings. All I said was basically that the argument that you used against the Heat has not been historically proven in actual fact.
You saw who do what when?
The last time I checked, there are a whole two teams that can do that; and Sacramento is not one of them.
Saying that the players that I named are sitting at the end of the bench implies that they haven't played in every playoff game this post-season; it's not like San Antonio's been blowing teams out, and they only get to play in garbage time. These guys have been playing, and they will get more playing time as they progress. Remember, if Devin Brown hadn't been injured, he'd be getting Brent Barry's minutes, and not the other way around.
Uhh... no. They have one superstar and two stars. Duncan + Ginobili + Parker =/= Bibby + Stojakovic + Miller, and if you think otherwise, you are misinformed.
Are you saying that you think that the USA Men's Basketball team because they had too many roleplayers?
Uhm, actually, you essentially said that the Heat were overrated because all they had were Wade, O'Neal and a bunch of roleplayers. I did not say that we needed a superstar to win a championship; I did not even speak as to whether or not that formula applies to the Kings. All I said was basically that the argument that you used against the Heat has not been historically proven in actual fact.
You saw who do what when?
The last time I checked, there are a whole two teams that can do that; and Sacramento is not one of them.
Saying that the players that I named are sitting at the end of the bench implies that they haven't played in every playoff game this post-season; it's not like San Antonio's been blowing teams out, and they only get to play in garbage time. These guys have been playing, and they will get more playing time as they progress. Remember, if Devin Brown hadn't been injured, he'd be getting Brent Barry's minutes, and not the other way around.
Uhh... no. They have one superstar and two stars. Duncan + Ginobili + Parker =/= Bibby + Stojakovic + Miller, and if you think otherwise, you are misinformed.
Are you saying that you think that the USA Men's Basketball team because they had too many roleplayers?
Exactly.
I didn't say overrated, I said beatable. By a team with 9 very good players who play as a team.
Here's the boxscore. I don't get to watch many Kings games anymore because I live in LA now, but I saw this one because it was on national television. Apparently you don't watch Kings basketball.
And never can be for the end of all time because they 'suck' too much right?
Well they still don't have anyone averaging more than 10 points for them who isn't Duncan, Parker, Ginobli, or an over the hill role-player. And of the guys you mentioned, only Devin Brown averaged more than 15 minutes a game for them.
I'm not sure what exactly =/= is supposed to mean, but assuming it means greater than, I don't see that as an accepted fact. Duncan is a superstar, granted. But Parker is not better than Bibby. And Ginobli is not better than Stojakovic. Maybe if you add them all up San Antonio comes out ahead due to the talent of Duncan but I don't think it's as hugely one-sided as you imply it to be.
I'm saying they lost to teams with a lot less individual talent because those other teams knew how to play together. And by extension, I'm saying the same can happen in the NBA if you collect a group of players who enhance each other's abilities and cover up each other's weaknesses.
It doesn't make you elite perhaps, but if you are an elite shooter (top 5 in the world is pretty much the definition of elite) and furthermore you've spent a full NBA season as the number two scorer in the league and the leading scorer on a team with one of the two best records in the league (which was true until the Webber return and the Miller injury), well then I think in that case you at least deserve consideration as an elite player. It's arguable yes, but not unheard of.
Not very many. They're rare - like gold. Or platinum. And we have one of them.
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I wasn't making an excuse. I was saying I live in LA (and I don't even have cable by the way so I'm not paying some ridiculous sum for league pass) and still I was able to witness this miraculous trouncing of the league champs which Slim apparently doesn't believe ever happened. And without Miller no less!
yes, and I suspose you happened to miss the rematch where they trounced us in return?
Detroit was clearly exhuasted in that first game. Didn't even look like themselves. It was a good win, but its symptomatic of what we do around here that we pick a game here and a game ther and say "look, we're great" without stopping to consider that the occasional good game is every bit a part of the normal curve as the occasional loss to New Orleans is. The truth of the matter, the peak of the curve, is as a middling borderline playoff team full of soft, undersized, unathletic players who would kick *** in a game of horse but fare far worse when matched up with actual world class athletes.
Detroit was clearly exhuasted in that first game. Didn't even look like themselves. It was a good win, but its symptomatic of what we do around here that we pick a game here and a game ther and say "look, we're great" without stopping to consider that the occasional good game is every bit a part of the normal curve as the occasional loss to New Orleans is. The truth of the matter, the peak of the curve, is as a middling borderline playoff team full of soft, undersized, unathletic players who would kick *** in a game of horse but fare far worse when matched up with actual world class athletes.
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I wasn't using that to prove we're better than Detroit. I was just saying that five players passing the ball well can beat anyone. And I know that's true because I've seen it happen. So that's why I think you can build a championship team around the guys we have now by adding guys who can pass and shoot and play defense. You guys seem hellbent on taking the pessimistic view about everything. Do you even believe it's possible for the Kings to field a competitive team next year? Because based on your comments it seems like you've already given them up for the lotto.
You say that as if there are a lot of those hanging around.
Apparently I've been deployed to the Gulf since January. I watched all eighty-two games last season, and the first twenty-five games this season. I probably watch more basketball in general, and more Kings basketball in particular, than most people... when I'm actually on land.
I'm sure that it'll happen some time between now and the "end of all time," but without a major personnel overhaul, it won't be happening any time soon.
The point, as I stated before, is that the Spurs aren't built around their older players; there are literally dozens of players in the league that can do what their old guys do, and when they are no longer able to contribute, the Spurs will go out and acquire them; and they'll be just as good as they are now.
As I stated in another thread, =/= is the closest that I can approximate the mathematical symbol which means "is not equal to."
That's your prerogative... but it is. In fact, not only is Duncan + Ginobili + Parker > Bibby + Stojakovic + Miller, but Duncan is better than any two of those three by himself.
Apparently I've been deployed to the Gulf since January. I watched all eighty-two games last season, and the first twenty-five games this season. I probably watch more basketball in general, and more Kings basketball in particular, than most people... when I'm actually on land.
I'm sure that it'll happen some time between now and the "end of all time," but without a major personnel overhaul, it won't be happening any time soon.
The point, as I stated before, is that the Spurs aren't built around their older players; there are literally dozens of players in the league that can do what their old guys do, and when they are no longer able to contribute, the Spurs will go out and acquire them; and they'll be just as good as they are now.
As I stated in another thread, =/= is the closest that I can approximate the mathematical symbol which means "is not equal to."
That's your prerogative... but it is. In fact, not only is Duncan + Ginobili + Parker > Bibby + Stojakovic + Miller, but Duncan is better than any two of those three by himself.
i have came to the conclusion that one of our "CORE" players will not be with us next season. I doubt it will be Bibby but Peja and Miller i feel are up for grabs. Peja has the best market valus being as his contract isn't that big. I look for Peja to be grouped with at least 1 of the newcomers maybe 2 to bring in some nice talent. Maybe Peja, Kt, and Corlis for KG.
How true! It would hurt even more knowing how the Kings were one of the main teams that really helped the entire game of basketball recover after that last lockout with their exciting play.
I have been a fan of the Warriors for that last couple of years knowing that the only fun times came when they would upset someone like the Lakers. I don't want the Kings to turn into that kind of franchise.
To be honest though. I may have more confidence in Mike Bibby, Peja Stojakovic, and Brad Miller than others, but with those three coming back healthy, (if they aren't moved) I don't think this team will suck. Those are the kind of peices to build around.
I have been a fan of the Warriors for that last couple of years knowing that the only fun times came when they would upset someone like the Lakers. I don't want the Kings to turn into that kind of franchise.
To be honest though. I may have more confidence in Mike Bibby, Peja Stojakovic, and Brad Miller than others, but with those three coming back healthy, (if they aren't moved) I don't think this team will suck. Those are the kind of peices to build around.
![T[MaC]](/data/avatars/m/1/1105.jpg?1377970461){kind=avatar}
Wow. I have to say I disagree totally. I at least think Peja, Bibby, and Miller should be given the chance to get it done. I think the Sacramento Kings next season are going to surprise a lot of people, most of whom are Kings fans.
If the Kings go out and get some quality role players that will help in the areas this team needs help in I think they will contend.
Bottom line is I think we will know by the mid-season trade deadline what the future of the Kings will be. If the Kings are blowing it big time, I expect most everyone to be gone for expiring deals.
If the Kings go out and get some quality role players that will help in the areas this team needs help in I think they will contend.
Bottom line is I think we will know by the mid-season trade deadline what the future of the Kings will be. If the Kings are blowing it big time, I expect most everyone to be gone for expiring deals.
You're right, we could win 50 with this "core". And that's it. And whoopee. The only way we win MORE than 50 is by making these guys NOT the core -- by bringing in players as good or better than they are in different areas of the game. They are all second fiddles. Not really a core at all in some ways, but rather they THEMSELVES were already the players you SURROUNDED the old core with. Merely watching the old core bleed away doesn't suddenly make our peripheral players a "core". They are what they have always been. Limited system players made effective by the old true core. They basically excel at one thing -- shooting. Now you somehow find a way to rebuild the true core, these guys are a very good supporting cast (indeed limited shooters are classic supporting cast players). But they're not remotely an elite core in and of themselves.
If Petrie has to make mid-season trades again, we are doomed. With the rare exception of a Rasheed Wallace type-trade, most deals go down well before the deadline. A cohesive team from the beginning is the best way to win a championship.
If the Kings are blowing it big time by mid-season next year, it means Petrie ISN'T the miracle worker we've thought he was. I don't necessarily expect a return to elite status in 2005-2006, but I certainly expect to see some of the key issues of this team resolved by the time they take the court in November.
If the Kings are blowing it big time by mid-season next year, it means Petrie ISN'T the miracle worker we've thought he was. I don't necessarily expect a return to elite status in 2005-2006, but I certainly expect to see some of the key issues of this team resolved by the time they take the court in November.
I agree, but with some reservations. I think Bibby in 2002 and 2003 (our best years) was definitely part of the "core" as much as Divac and Christie. Peja arguably to a lesser degree as well, but Bibby's role in propelling us through the 2002 playoffs cannot be denied. Of course, most of this is moot since we lost superstar Webber in game 2 against Dallas in 2003. But I still think saying that Webber/Christie/Divac was our core that you're leaving a little bit out.
I think your reasoning is this:
Webber is the superstar.
Divac is the team sentimental leader and assist-maker, set up guy.
Christie the defensive stopper and set up guy.
But in the spring of 2002, all I remember hearing is that Bibby was THE MAN.
Now, you're right, we don't have a superstar, and don't have the defensive stopper, leader, or great passers. Bibby/Peja/Miller are shooters to begin with. I think Bibby could, if the system were set up to do so, become the man again. Miller could provide some hustle, as well as passing.
That leaves us with Peja, the pure shooter, who logically must net us the superstar/sentimental leader. I'm all for Paul Pierce.
Here's hoping that GP isn't blind to that.
I think your reasoning is this:
Webber is the superstar.
Divac is the team sentimental leader and assist-maker, set up guy.
Christie the defensive stopper and set up guy.
But in the spring of 2002, all I remember hearing is that Bibby was THE MAN.
Now, you're right, we don't have a superstar, and don't have the defensive stopper, leader, or great passers. Bibby/Peja/Miller are shooters to begin with. I think Bibby could, if the system were set up to do so, become the man again. Miller could provide some hustle, as well as passing.
That leaves us with Peja, the pure shooter, who logically must net us the superstar/sentimental leader. I'm all for Paul Pierce.
Here's hoping that GP isn't blind to that.