The Official NBA Draft Day Thread 2014 Edition

During the offseason, I've...

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Thats all he'd be doing alongside IT, with his shooting woes stuffing him at SG wouldn't be great on the offensive end unless you run dribble pitch.

He played good D against Mcdermott (so I'm told)
 
Gary said:
I downloaded a bit of game footage on Payton because I had almost NO info on him prior to workouts. He looks good... Basically I would rate them like this;

Dribbling = Payton
Ball Handling = Payton
Passing = Smart
Court Vision = EQUAL
Shooting = EQUAL
Outside Shooting = EQUAL (although Smart will take more chances)
Taking the Ball to the Rim = Smart
Defense = Smart
Defensive Awareness = Smart
Defensive Switching = Smart
Defensive Pick and Roll = Smart


Smart is better suited to contribute now IMO.. But I have seen a LOT more of Smart than Payton. Probably 20-25 more games. I have only watched about 3 halves of basketball with Payton including all the draft videos. That's all I could find on him.
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I'd say Payton has the better court vision and passing. Or at least on the college level he was much more often looking for the open man and trying to facilitate the offense. And they both have terrible jump shots but Smart's looks much more correctable. Payton's looks busted and in need of reconstruction. And yet part of the buzz and his rise in mock drafts is due to reports that he's shot the ball well in workouts. Strange.

I understand making a list of skills and comparing players but to me the biggest difference between these guys is style of play. Smart is a bigger, stronger more fiery player but he's also more offensive minded. He's not a pass first PG. I'm not wholly convinced he's really a PG at all in fact. But he could potentially be a monstrous defender if played at that spot and an offensive mismatch especially since he shows some talent in the post. Payton is really a pass first PG. He has the ball handling, change of direction and first step to get into the lane whenever he wants but he doesn't finish well. He's a great facilitator, always looking for the open man but is often way too sloppy with his passes. And he's a very good defender too, but more of the long, pesky and disruptive variety than Smart's physical, punishing defense. Hell, Smart was often tasked with guarding opposing wings and even post players early in the season and did an admirable job. And unlike Payton, Smart gives the team the ability to match on IT and run the two of them out there together with Smart defending opposing SGs. That's a nice trick to have. But I think Payton outplayed him in the Kings workout. At least that's what I heard third hand.

We'll see.

Hallama said:
More on Smart: when he hits the more wide open NBA, I think he will thrive even more in open spaces. While I love Payton's defense, Smart is equally a defensive disruptor imo. 3 steals per game.

I think his 3pt shot will actually improve at the NBA level with more space. His shot is way more ready than Payton's at this point. Smart played with 2 or 3 other guards at OKC and they weren't really known for giving up the ball. Their offense was always really cramped.

The good news is if the Kings end up with one of Payton, Smart, or Rondo, those are all great defensive PG's.

And I really like Ray's defense too.
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As I just mentioned, the big surprise to me have been the reports that Payton has shot well in workouts. Maybe it's a smokescreen but it's happened after a couple different workouts. One reason to think Payton might be higher on the Kings draft board is that PDA and Malone are clearly looking for a pass first PG. On that front, Payton is more the guy.

Hallama said:
It's why I think Gordon and Smart are great picks at 8. They have NBA ready/needed skills but are being discounted because of shooting. I think they both will improve their shot. Guys like Michael Redd and Nick Van Exel had the same doubts at one time...
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Well, Van Exel also dropped (I'd say mainly dropped actually) because of attitude issues. The same attitude issues that were given as the reason he was later shipped from the Lakers to the Nuggets.
 
Smart played against such a higher level of competition vs Payton it's hard to compare apples to apples. But I would agree Payton's on the ball is pretty advanced.

Sounds like Utah is seriously considering him at 5 now.
 
LPKingsFan said:
Is Payton big enough to guard SGs were the Kings to play him next to IT for long stretches at a time?
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I think both Smart and Payton have the size and length to handle most SGs though their size advantage at PG is part of what makes them so appealing as prospects. With either one I would expect McLemore to be the intended backcourt pairing. You're going to want a shooter with them and probably a catch and shoot guy rather than a high usage ballhandler.
 
funkykingston said:
I'd say Payton has the better court vision and passing. Or at least on the college level he was much more often looking for the open man and trying to facilitate the offense. And they both have terrible jump shots but Smart's looks much more correctable. Payton's looks busted and in need of reconstruction. And yet part of the buzz and his rise in mock drafts is due to reports that he's shot the ball well in workouts. Strange.

I understand making a list of skills and comparing players but to me the biggest difference between these guys is style of play. Smart is a bigger, stronger more fiery player but he's also more offensive minded. He's not a pass first PG. I'm not wholly convinced he's really a PG at all in fact. But he could potentially be a monstrous defender if played at that spot and an offensive mismatch especially since he shows some talent in the post. Payton is really a pass first PG. He has the ball handling, change of direction and first step to get into the lane whenever he wants but he doesn't finish well. He's a great facilitator, always looking for the open man but is often way too sloppy with his passes. And he's a very good defender too, but more of the long, pesky and disruptive variety than Smart's physical, punishing defense. Hell, Smart was often tasked with guarding opposing wings and even post players early in the season and did an admirable job. And unlike Payton, Smart gives the team the ability to match on IT and run the two of them out there together with Smart defending opposing SGs. That's a nice trick to have. But I think Payton outplayed him in the Kings workout. At least that's what I heard third hand.

We'll see.



As I just mentioned, the big surprise to me have been the reports that Payton has shot well in workouts. Maybe it's a smokescreen but it's happened after a couple different workouts. One reason to think Payton might be higher on the Kings draft board is that PDA and Malone are clearly looking for a pass first PG. On that front, Payton is more the guy.



Well, Van Exel also dropped (I'd say mainly dropped actually) because of attitude issues. The same attitude issues that were given as the reason he was later shipped from the Lakers to the Nuggets.
Click to expand...

This sounds a lot like the debate for MCW last year. I was very high on MCW for a lot of the same reasons; primarily his game fits the NBA game a little better than the NCAA, and I think it's the same for Smart.

Now, don't take me wrong I'm not declaring "poster credit" or anything stupid like that with MCW. For every MCW I've been wrong on just as many other players. ;)
 
hrdboild said:
I think both Smart and Payton have the size and length to handle most SGs though their size advantage at PG is part of what makes them so appealing as prospects. With either one I would expect McLemore to be the intended backcourt pairing. You're going to want a shooter with them and probably a catch and shoot guy rather than a high usage ballhandler.
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Definitely agree long term, but if you're keeping IT as 6th man a la Bobby Jackson you want to be comfortable playing him next to both of your starting guards. Plus, if Payon proved more ready and Ben had another slow start next season, I could see them starting IT at SG temporarily.
 
hrdboild said:
I think both Smart and Payton have the size and length to handle most SGs though their size advantage at PG is part of what makes them so appealing as prospects. With either one I would expect McLemore to be the intended backcourt pairing. You're going to want a shooter with them and probably a catch and shoot guy rather than a high usage ballhandler.
Click to expand...

I don't think Payton can guard NBA 2's. He just isn't built for it. Smart most definitely can. Both would pair fine with McLemore, though I like Payton's fit better there since he looks for/finds open shooters on the wing much more often than Smart. But if IT returned Smart could swing to the SG and not be a liability on defense. IT/Payton wouldn't be nearly as effective as both guys would be at a physical disadvantage to their counterparts in the opposing backcourt.

Hallama said:
This sounds a lot like the debate for MCW last year. I was very high on MCW for a lot of the same reasons; primarily his game fits the NBA game a little better than the NCAA, and I think it's the same for Smart.

Now, don't take me wrong I'm not declaring "poster credit" or anything stupid like that with MCW. For every MCW I've been wrong on just as many other players. ;)
Click to expand...

For what it's worth I was NOT high on MCW for many reasons. One was that (like Ennis) I dinged him for playing in Syracuse's zone and thus being a bit of a black box AND needing more adjustment time than most rookies to playing NBA defense. His shot was obviously another. And honestly, I wanted Tyreke back so I saw MCW as a poor fit next to him as opposed to a guy like McLemore or McCollum who I still want to see play real minutes with Portland. But I digress. I like Smart more than I liked MCW and a large part of that is his motor, size & strength combo and his defensive potential.
 
funkykingston said:
I'd say Payton has the better court vision and passing. Or at least on the college level he was much more often looking for the open man and trying to facilitate the offense. And they both have terrible jump shots but Smart's looks much more correctable. Payton's looks busted and in need of reconstruction. And yet part of the buzz and his rise in mock drafts is due to reports that he's shot the ball well in workouts. Strange.

I understand making a list of skills and comparing players but to me the biggest difference between these guys is style of play. Smart is a bigger, stronger more fiery player but he's also more offensive minded. He's not a pass first PG. I'm not wholly convinced he's really a PG at all in fact. But he could potentially be a monstrous defender if played at that spot and an offensive mismatch especially since he shows some talent in the post. Payton is really a pass first PG. He has the ball handling, change of direction and first step to get into the lane whenever he wants but he doesn't finish well. He's a great facilitator, always looking for the open man but is often way too sloppy with his passes. And he's a very good defender too, but more of the long, pesky and disruptive variety than Smart's physical, punishing defense. Hell, Smart was often tasked with guarding opposing wings and even post players early in the season and did an admirable job. And unlike Payton, Smart gives the team the ability to match on IT and run the two of them out there together with Smart defending opposing SGs. That's a nice trick to have. But I think Payton outplayed him in the Kings workout. At least that's what I heard third hand.

We'll see.



As I just mentioned, the big surprise to me have been the reports that Payton has shot well in workouts. Maybe it's a smokescreen but it's happened after a couple different workouts. One reason to think Payton might be higher on the Kings draft board is that PDA and Malone are clearly looking for a pass first PG. On that front, Payton is more the guy.



Well, Van Exel also dropped (I'd say mainly dropped actually) because of attitude issues. The same attitude issues that were given as the reason he was later shipped from the Lakers to the Nuggets.
Click to expand...

I was taken aback when semi-criticized when I said Payton had a lousy jump shot but I stick to that. Your note hits one difference between Smart and Payton and that is that Payton's shot looks uncorrectable. I don't think you said that but he flings the ball at the hoop and hits the iron. It looks like a middle school shooter or me (ask my kids). He needs to start from the beginning. There is a difference in a miss like Ben where it looks like he is aiming consciously toward the center of the twine and Payton is just launching cannon balls. Clank. Can the shot be fixed? It will take a few years, I presume at least that long IF it can be fixed. I will not knock any other portion of his game as he can take it to the rim, dunk, and anything else one would want offensively. His defense is great.

I am very concerned about his shot and after just watching ESPN's Mock Draft show, I have to agree that putting him at #20 is not a surprise. Let's remember he played in a league I've never heard of. I get shuddering memories of Jimmer who was great and also in a less than spectacular league. Smart has a bit of this same problem.

In broad strokes, the two guys have similar skills which are very good and similar faults which are quite bad. If I had to chose, I'd take the guy who weighs 40 pounds of muscle more.

I don't think either will be drafted by us. If we get a PG, it will be a vet by trade. I have been critical of IT for more than a year and here's my last shot. I note only a passing interest in IT coming out of our organization or anywhere else. Let us use the term "Big Three" for three players on a team that win because if a Big Three can't win, it is a dysfunctional Big Three and the term is a little silly.
 
Hallama said:
This sounds a lot like the debate for MCW last year. I was very high on MCW for a lot of the same reasons; primarily his game fits the NBA game a little better than the NCAA, and I think it's the same for Smart.

Now, don't take me wrong I'm not declaring "poster credit" or anything stupid like that with MCW. For every MCW I've been wrong on just as many other players. ;)
Click to expand...

I agree with this as to Smart and also think it applies to Vonleh.
 
BrFWmIFCcAEiYM0.jpg


ooo I wonder whats being said, probably nothing, just silence.

https://twitter.com/amiller/status/482261848348041216
 
Glenn said:
I am very concerned about his shot and after just watching ESPN's Mock Draft show, I have to agree that putting him at #20 is not a surprise. Let's remember he played in a league I've never heard of. I get shuddering memories of Jimmer who was great and also in a less than spectacular league. Smart has a bit of this same problem.
Click to expand...

They also played on the same USA team last summer for the U19 FIBA championship and they posted eerily similar numbers there. Smart was slightly better in assists, Payton was slightly better in rebounds. Smart scored more but also shot a lower percentage from the floor (mostly because of 6-21 from three). Interestingly, Payton was the better free throw shooter there. It's only a 9 game sample, but if you're looking for a direct comparison you're probably not going to find a much better one than that.

You could also look at their tournament boxscores. Both lost in the first round:

Smart (against Gonzaga):
23pts 13rebs 7asts 1blk 6stls 4pf 6to (5-14 fg) (1-5 3pt) (12-19 ft)

Payton (aginst Creighton):
24pts 8rebs 3asts 2blk 3stl 2pf 1to (9-20 fg) (1-4 3pt) (5-9 ft)
 
Hey guys...what the heck is going on today? I came here expecting all kinds of trades and crazy stuff happening and there is absolutely nothing! Not even good rumors! Come on PDA!
 
New Era said:
Hey guys...what the heck is going on today? I came here expecting all kinds of trades and crazy stuff happening and there is absolutely nothing! Not even good rumors! Come on PDA!
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this. I am disappointed. Both Afflalo and Asik were traded for trash. (i know we don't have a future 1st to dangle.)
 
One thing I will say about both Smart and Payton is that they are probably MORE ready than your average rookie point guard. This isn't a Brandon Knight situation, or Dante Exum or something where the player lacks experience on every level.

Both guys have played multiple years of college ball. While I don't expect either guy to shoot it particularly well, I would expect them to play solid defense, and know how to run a team (and get better as the year goes on).

Aside from Smart's run in with the fan, which I don't even care about if I'm being honest, they are both smart, good character basketball players. They aren't raw like a lot of rookies are.

Payton is a 20 year old junior. That's some good experience for a young guy.
 
New Era said:
Hey guys...what the heck is going on today? I came here expecting all kinds of trades and crazy stuff happening and there is absolutely nothing! Not even good rumors! Come on PDA!
Click to expand...

This is the flip side to PDA being so aggressive and the new front office apparently not being so secretive. All sorts of reports leak out building hopes up and it's very possible that none of it comes to pass.

I suppose we'll never know how active Petrie was because either he really was sitting on his hands most years or he just ran a tighter ship.

Either way, rumors are fun and interesting but the real issue is whether this front office builds a better team. While I've been critical of D'Alessandro I absolutely hope he's a huge success as a GM because this franchise and this fan base deserve it.
 
Apparently if the Jazz can't move up, they're likely to take Gordon at 5. It'd be a shock to me but I'd be happy if it happened. Can't see it, though.
 
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