The Discussion We Will Not Have But Maybe Should Thread

[Bricklayer]

I am not even sure if I believe in the questions raised by this thread myself, and I am quite sure that they are so politically incorrect, in terms of the Kings little kingdom, that they will be roundly decried and dismissed. Of course that's precisely why I had to start the thread -- nobody else would, and anything that will inspire such a kneejerk reaction from people, myself included, is normally worth a little investigation. So, two cases:

Case 1

John Salmons
Age: 28
Salary: 3yrs $16.5mil ($5.5mil per)
Stats as starter: 39.2min 19.6pts (.516 FG% .479 3pt% .813 FT%) 5.1reb 3.7ast 1.8stl 0.4blk

Kevin Martin
Age: 25 (in 3 weeks)
Salary: 5yrs $55.0mil ($11mil per)
Stats as starter: 39.4min 24.5pts (.434 FG% .398 3pt% .850 FT%) 4.9reb 2.1ast 1.4stl 0.1blk

Notes: who now has really been better? Five extra points, versus supperior efficiency, defense, and playmaking. What happens if you factor in that one player costs half as much as the other? Who is the better choice as starter going forward?


Case 2

Beno Udrih
Age: 25
Salary: N/A (FA after this season)
Stats as starter: 36.8min 14.0pts (.439 FG% .412 3pt% .852 FT%) 3.7reb 5.0ast 1.1stl 0.1blk

Mike Bibby
Age: 29
Salary: 1yr $14.5mil (player option)
*Stats as starter: 34.0min 17.1pts (.404 FG% .360 3pt% .830 FT%) 3.2reb 4.7ast 1.1stl 0.1blk

*stats from 06-07

Notes: again, who has been better of late? I know who has been more efficient and who has been cheaper... So who is the more cost efficient starter for the future?

 

[twocents]

playing with fire there.

between udrih and bibby, i would go for udrih. he is not a big-time player but might not really need to become one. he is more of a traditional pg who can drive and shoot but also set others. bibby hit the jackpot thanks to webber and miller but is not all that great without a decent big with whom he can run pick and roll. his defense is really bad and he is somewhat of a chucker.

between martin and salmons, hard to tell really. i have never been impressed with martin`s game even though i must admit he clearly proved me wrong in my initial guess at how well he might play. i have not had the chance to watch either play given that i am not in the states right now. martin seems to be the unconventional type of player; it is not clear at all whether he has peaked, he is over achieving because the teams are not really adjusting their games to account for martin or whether he will keep improving his scoring to a point where he might become the second star of a good team. salmons is not that much of an enigma. he is what he is and that is not too bad, really.

 

[RunNGun]

This is a case in which I believe stats are deceiving. For example in the Beno vs. Bibby argument who would you pick to take the final shot in a game. Bibby, of course, every time. He just knows how to get it done. Beno has the benefit of being under the radar in the scouting reports meanwhile Bibby has always been one of the major focuses of any team we encounter. Bibby can simply do things that Beno can not. Of course we're gonna shop Bibby around a bit, but lets not make the mistake that we did with C Webb. When the right situation and offer arrives then we'll take it, but if it doesn't then Bibby stays.

Similar situation with Martin. He simply has a greater amount of skills than Salmons. It also happens that he is the focus of opposing teams defenders. There is also the aspect of Martin actually getting better, which I believe he still can (especially since you can tell that his body is underdeveloped for his age). Martin is a perfect franchise player. Hard working, skilled, and with a little flash (sometimes I don't even think Kobe could pull of some of the "and 1" plays that Martin does). Salmons was a great pickup but I cannot imagine him being the go-to guy in the future and I don't see him getting any better.

 

[Glenn]

This doesn't have to be THAT controversial. I've been semi-lurking thinking Salmons is not only the better investment but probably the better over-all player than Kevin given that Salmons has a nice outside shot (Kevin is better) but also can create his own shot and is probably the best on the Kings with that skill. Kevin may get much better on defense as his quickness is extraordinary.

They are both starters and that's a problem. I can't imagine Kevin coming off the bench and Salmons has shown that he doesn't function well coming off the bench. I suspect given time, Salmons could get better off the bench. I say that only because he has too much skill to continue with what so far has been a large difference between performance as a starter and as a bench person. He can sub at many positions while Kevin is stuck at the 2. This will give him a lot of minutes and is very valuable. It might ease the pain of not being a starter.

A large part of the decision making process will depend on Ron's status. Both can start if Ron is traded, gets suspended, or ends up in jail. I would prefer to trade Kevin as the salary might result in getting a better player in return but that's beyond anything I can predict. The trade partner(s) get a say in this also.

Udrih and Bibby are probably equal in what they contribute as pgs (different styles) except that Bibby has been a far better shooter assuming he doesn't play at his career low level of last year. Bibby was the go-to person and we need one badly. We may have lost several games because of the lack of such a person. His free throw shooting makes him invaluable when trying to put away a game. We need more than Brad.

If we are assuming that winning is not important, Udrih is by far the best investment but if winning still is important, I go with Bibby no matter what the cost. I assume Udrih's salary will get a bump next year but still be far less than Bibby's. Maybe Bibby will sign for less but that is not the way of most NBA players. At some point many attain a feeling of entitlement.

Between the two, they are a great one-two combination of pgs with Bibby the starter assuming he has a better year than last year.

The most cost efficient starters are Udrih and Salmons. That's hard to argue. I wouldn't pick a starter on this basis. It DOES come into play when it is decided who is traded or at the least, shopped around. For Bibby it may have a lot to do with whether he is renewed or not.

Who has been better of late? Salmons and Udrih with Bibby's disaster of a year last year.

As a general statement, I think it is accepted among teams that young guys are a bargain and old guys are over-priced. That's pretty much inescapable and drove past owner Jim Thomas nuts. He couldn't adapt his strict business model to the sports model which has been in place since I first began to pay attention to sports. Older veterans get paid more than they are worth because as youngsters they are paid less than they are worth - at least this is so of the great ones. The present CBA makes this a certainty.

It is also true, at least to me, that the vets have a much better feel of the NBA than the younger. Udrih, Salmons, and Martin may be examples of this.

 

[Glenn]

Of course we're gonna shop Bibby around a bit, but lets not make the mistake that we did with C Webb. When the right situation and offer arrives then we'll take it, but if it doesn't then Bibby stays.

Well put.

 

[Packt]

Beno wins out by being younger and cheaper, also because he fights through screens. However, he's a FA and we don't have bird rights. I feel we should just let the Bibby situation play itself out because Beno doesn't warrant a complete removal of Bibby. Basically Beno has been average and I wouldn't design any long term plans around him.

Martin is the better scorer, but Salmons is the more well rounded player. I put Salmons in the older age bracket. He's still young, but not young enough to hold on to in a rebuild. Get what you can for him while you can. I'm not sold on Martin either, but he has youth on his side. Even though I think he looks like the classic scorer on a bad team there is value in that. The things he does well are things that can be easily quantify. It will be easier to move him in the future because of that.

 

[dude12]

In the case of Salmons v Martin, I would still keep Martin over Salmons unless Martin could be traded to bring a frontline starter at PF.....that meaning an all-star-type guy or borderline all-star at that spot. Martin requires the other team's best defender or he makes the other team's defenders shade to the paint to help out the primary defender. I'm not so sure Salmons does this as I think teams believe they can guard him straight up with a defender. Check the defense tonight when Salmons gets the ball in some isolations and see what the defense does.....maybe its the same thing. I do believe that KMart affects the other team more than Salmons and in that aspect, he makes his teammates better. Ron Artest has better numbers when Martin plays.

If you look at Cisco's numbers/48 minutes, they also compare to those of Salmons and to an extent, KMart but no one would debate that we should keep Cisco over KMart and mostlikely Salmons either.

Dwight Howard scores 25 points with guys hanging all over him. If Brad Miller scores 25 points, he does it with single coverage and sometimes, teams will guard him with a smaller SF or other type of player. Who is better?

Udrih v Bibby...it's just plain simple at this point. Udrih is a cheaper option and Mike doesn't demand the same respect from the opposing defenses that a KMart does. Udrih and Bibby are quite similar in that they are both mainly scoring PG's, have low assist/48 totals, play ok defense at best (because Udrih tries hard, doesn't mean he's a good defender, otherwise he would still be in SA). When both guys are not shooting well and they keep jacking the ball up, they are liabilities for that game at least. I'd rather have Bibby as I think he's much, much tougher than Udrih. Wasn't one of the resons Udrih was let go from SA, didn't Pop question his toughness?

 

[GoGoGadget]

I would go with Salmons over Martin due to the fact his game this year hasn't been so one dimensional as Martin's, which I believe is going to be the more controversial aspect of this proposition. In terms of both money and trade value, however, I think it's quite obvious that moving Kevin would probably get us a better return.

As far as Bibby/Udrih... I'm not a fan of comparing stats when a guy hasn't played yet all year, especially when it's unclear as to weather the dip in the most recent stats available was due to injury or the first signs of an actual decline in ability. That being said, I think Beno suits our needs just fine if this ever officially becomes a rebuilding team. And, again, there's no question that moving Bibby before he opts out makes more sense financially.

 

[Jerryaki]

bibby is in his prime; where he would be most effective is with a team that is contending for a championship, not a team that is in the middle of the pack or rebuilding. if it's assumed that this team is still 2+ years away from being relevant again, then by then mike really isn't going to be in his prime any more. plus, at this current point, he is one of our better trade assets for a team looking for that final push to contend this season. i say keep beno, trade mike for as much value as you can, hunt for a star PG in next year's draft.

as for salmons versus kevin, someone said it up thread, i think we know what we have with salmons, but kevin's got the greater potential. for the future, if we can keep these two (since we've just signed kevin to an extension and salmons is relatively inexpensive for his production), then we should keep them. salmons, due to his across the board production, is probably the better trade asset right now, though. "a sell high" type of asset.

 

['89 Kings Fan]

Bricklayer,

For your case #1 I think it has to be pointed out that Salmons 3pt% and efficiency has to be taken with a grain of salt. Martin shoots almost 5 a game and Salmons shoots 1.7 a game. Not that Martin shooting 5 3's a game is bad for the team since we are in the bottom 3rd of 3 point attempts. How many times has someone driven into the paint and kicked out to John just to have him drive right back into the paint. I think he averages at least 1.5 passed up open 3's a game. Secondly, last year Martin was one of the most efficient players in the league. I don't think the beginning of this season with its 20 different lineup changes allows up to make a very good comparison.

So whenever a difficult decision like this needs to be made we can just punt. Trade Artest.

For the Case #2 as much as it pains me with how much I have loved Bibby over the years this is obviously not the team for him. Beno is obviously a better option moving forward. Unfortunately, every one else knows it too. So any trade for Bibby is going to be very disappointing. (Please Geoff do not trade for Gooden, I am begging you.) Secondly there is no way we have the money to resign him next season. (Thanks Mikki.) So unless we can trade Bibby for expiring contracts this season and Beno signs for the MLE next season we will not be able to keep him.

So we are right back to were we started at the beginning of the season. We need to trade our veterans and start over.

 

[kennadog]

I've enjoyed watching Salmons this year. He has a much more rounded game than Kevin and is a better defender. I'm not yet willing to say that Kevin won't be as good or better by the time he's Salmons age, though. Martin's a hard worker and obviously has a desire to improve. I think Kevin would bring back more in a trade, just because he's younger and tied to a contract for a few years.

Since they are PGs, assists and TO's are important. Bibby's lowest average assist year was last year (4.7) and that's virtually the same Beno is averaging as a starter for us (4.8). Beno averages slightly more in TO's, too. But Beno's only beeen a starter for part of a season, so it may be unfair to compare. He's young and, like Kevin, may get better.

I may be imaging it, but it seems like Udrih's part of the TO problem at our worst times, the end of games. Right now, I'd definitely rather have the ball in Bibby's hands in the fourth quarter.

But......Bibby's salary and age are issues. And while he's been an absolute ironman and is very tough-minded, you have to start wondering if the injuries the last two seasons are blips or trends.

We'd probably be better off to rid ourselves of Bibby's salary. Beno's probably fine at PG for now. If we trade Bibbs, I hope he gets a chance to play for a true contender. (On the sentimental note, it will hurt me to see him go and not retire a King.)

 

[dude12]

I may be imaging it, but it seems like Udrih's part of the TO problem at our worst times, the end of games. Right now, I'd definitely rather have the ball in Bibby's hands in the fourth quarter.

I'll second that about the turnovers in critical parts of the game. He's been part of the problem. The hope is that with the consistent playing time he's finally getting that he resolves that part of the game. Same goes for Salmons. Some of the passes they attempt just have no chance and they seem to come in crunch time.

 

[fnordius]

Bibby and Udrih are close enough that I've made the same comparison, so I can't argue that it's unwarranted. Salmons and Martin I don't see as so similar, Salmons plays more like RonRon Jr. His shooting % is admittedly high for a GF, unlike Ron's, but his high TOs almost cancel that out. And when he's got his head down, determined to be the hero, with blinders on with regard to his teammates, John looks a lot more like Ron than Kevin. His well-rounded game, with respectable D, is also much closer to Ron's.

Then this whole topic boils down to: are we better off trading Mike and Ron away. Looking at the contracts, and where we'll end up if we don't, I think that the answer has to be yes, IF we'd do that in such a way as to help the team rebuild. If not, the second best scenario is probably to try to find some way to re-sign Beno (despite the MLE contract hell we've set up for ourselves), and let Mike and Ron expire. Other possibilities would appear to be worse than doing nothing at all. Salmons could probably be traded, but we're going to be needing him soon; Udrih couldn't be traded for anything significant, because he's a cheap FA, so has little value as either an ender or as a regular player.

 

[kupman]

I don't really know if this is controversial at this point. It seems more like 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. Going back to the Carmichael Dave thread last summer though, it seems like Kmart would be the most treadable piece.

 

[VF21]

...I am quite sure that they are so politically incorrect, in terms of the Kings little kingdom, that they will be roundly decried and dismissed. Of course that's precisely why I had to start the thread -- nobody else would, and anything that will inspire such a kneejerk reaction from people, myself included, is normally worth a little investigation...

Um, what?

These may be prime questions in your mind but that doesn't make them "political" hot potatoes by any stretch of the imagination.

Case 1: Kevin is the better selection for the future IF you want to factor in the intangibles, IMHO. And just as an aside, I thought you were convinced Salmons was never going to be anything more than fill-in and that his acquisition was a mistake by Petrie? Changing your mind a little? I would compare Salmons and GARCIA and their value to the team. I honestly do not think the Kings should or would trade away another fan favorite, especially since this one is still improving.

Case 2: It is totally dependent upon what offer we can get for Mike.

You always want to reduce everything to cost effectiveness and that's not the only basis for consideration, IMHO. A successful franchise has a lot of components but you overlook fan considerations, at least at a small level, to your peril. Right now the Maloofs are trying pretty much anything they can to get the fans back and retain the ones who are still shelling out the bucks for the games. Trading away Martin would be a major hit to a large number of those fans. In addition, Petrie selected Martin for a reason. He isn't going to give him away when he's just starting to show what Petrie hoped would happen.

 

[nbrans]

I don't think this is an either or thing. Martin and Salmons makes a great combo at the 2/3 since they don't duplicate each other and each do slightly different things. Martin is the better scorer, Salmons is more well-rounded. Salmons is better with the ball, Martin is better scoring off the ball. With Martin back in the lineup Salmons can continue to be an opportunistic scorer and focus on the other intangibles like creating shots and playing defense -- sort of the Doug Christie to Martin's Peja, only if you switch the small forward for the shooting guard.

As for Beno vs. Bibby.... I still don't think Beno is an ideal point guard and he would be great off the bench. But if it's one or the other that's a really easy call to make in favor of Beno.

 

[Bricklayer]

And, just as an aside, shouldn't this be in the Personnel Moves forum since it's primarily just another discussion of potential trade value?

No, its a thread about our players, not theri movements. And your personal panic over the thread doesn't entitle you to pettiness either. That reaction was of course precisely what I was alluding to in my intro. I know its not as intellectually enlightening as an I Love This Team!!! thread, but some of us are just strange that way.

As for Salmons, it is what it is. I take some comfort in being in the 99.9% of the population who would never have marked him as a sustained 20ppg scorer, Petrie included BTW (Salmons was a backup plan for Bonzi and as I recall he asked Muss whether he wanted the guy (so maybe Muss was the 1% along with John's mom)). But regardless, the very reason I end up being right oftener than not is because I pay attention and shift my feet to reflect current realities. And the current realties are there in the numbers.

 

[VF21]

No. And your personal panic over the thread doesn't entitle you to pettiness either. That reaction was of course precisely what I was alluding to in my intro. I know its not as intellectually enlightening as an I Love This Team!!! thread, but some of us are just strange that way.

As for Salmons, it is what it is. I take some comfort in being in the 99.9% of the population who would never have marked him as a sustained 20ppg scorer, Petrie included BTW (Salmons was a backup plan for Bonzi and as I recall he asked Muss whether he wanted the guy (so maybe Muss was the 1% along with John's mom)). But regardless, the very reason I end up being right oftener than not is because I pay attention and shift my feet to reflect current realities. And the current realties are there in the numbers.

Oh, excuse me. I thought I was entitled to an opinion. I didn't realize I was simply panicking at a personal level...

 

[CruzDude]

Case 2

Beno Udrih
Age: 25
Salary: N/A (FA after this season)
Stats as starter: 36.8min 14.0pts (.439 FG% .412 3pt% .852 FT%) 3.7reb 5.0ast 1.1stl 0.1blk

Mike Bibby
Age: 29
Salary: 1yr $14.5mil (player option)
*Stats as starter: 34.0min 17.1pts (.404 FG% .360 3pt% .830 FT%) 3.2reb 4.7ast 1.1stl 0.1blk

*stats from 06-07

Notes: again, who has been better of late? I know who has been more efficient and who has been cheaper... So who is the more cost efficient starter for the future?

Not really valid comparison as last year Bibbs played injured most of the year and had his worst stats year in the NBA. As to what is better for the team now when we get Kevin back, it all depends if Bibbs becomes the go-to guy or Kevin begins to assume that role. Salmons is also possible go-to guy as well.

Then when RonRon comes back, do we win more games with Salmons or RonRon?

Kevin and Salmons are a 2/3 combo that seems ideal. Since both are shooters, Bibbs adds a 3rd shooter and there are not enough balls to go around. Plus Beno is becoming quite the penetrator and/or disher, eh?

 

[venom_7]

Im so glad that everyone who wants to trade Kevin isnt the GM. We might get a good return, but look at what we HAVE in the guy. I know people say good swingmen are a dime a dozen, but GREAT players only come once in a while, especially to Sac. Kmart could one day be great, I mean he is already being compared to Reggie Miller and IMO he was one of the best pure Sgs to play the game. Maybe he isn't the player to build around, and neither was Reggie. I say we take our chances with him. Salmons is cheaper, older, and playing the best he will ever play right now. So trade him in the offseason to a team that needs a decent SG/SF type to fill a role. Portland would probably take him for Sergio Rodriguez or another draft pick. Keep Kevin though. He is the most valuable player for the future right now.

 

[venom_7]

Kevin and Salmons are a 2/3 combo that seems ideal. Since both are shooters, Bibbs adds a 3rd shooter and there are not enough balls to go around. Plus Beno is becoming quite the penetrator and/or disher, eh?

I see the makings of one of the best starting/bench perimeters in the league. Unfortunately our frontcourt is old, bad, hurt, and young all at the same time.

 

[AriesMar27]

with salmons this is similar to the laker discussion about bynum... good player but he isnt and shouldnt be the go-to player.... salmons isnt kobe and he isnt artest... salmons is the type of player that we needed after we traded doug and before we traded peja... he isnt even better than a player like luke walton... and would you trade kevin for luke walton? no.... martin is a borderline franchise player... he isnt kobe either but he is in the michael redd territory... salmons is the bobby simmons of the team...

beno is the back that we have been waiting for but now we dont have the starter in the lineup.... unless we are drafting a pg for the future i dont see why we would trade bibby over beno...

and we wouldnt be having this conversation if reef and thomas had any trade value last summer and were traded...

 

[fnordius]

Not really valid comparison as last year Bibbs played injured most of the year and had his worst stats year in the NBA.

Just for the record, I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that last year was Bibby's worst stats year. His shooting percentages were their worst, and his assists were down, but most of his other stats were fine. It was, for example, a higher scoring year than any of his first 5 in the NBA. It may be that his numbers dropped last year because of the injury, but they also dropped some because of Muss, and they would probably be dropping regardless, because the guy turns 30 in a few months. Now that he's supposed to be healthy again, and now that Muss is gone, we will see how much age is a factor. I don't expect him to do as badly as last year, but I also don't expect him to set a bunch of career highs over the next few months.

 

[Bricklayer]

Oh, excuse me. I thought I was entitled to an opinion. I didn't realize I was simply panicking at a personal level...

You can't hold your water for a microsecond at a suggestion that Kevin be traded (which btw was never directly asserted in what is primarily a discussion thread) and switch instantly into discredit the thread/poster mode. That Kevin be retained is of course always going to be the majority opinion -- nearly a sacrosanct figure right now -- and many have stated such. Then there are those who find it so offensive they have to try to undercut the validity of the issue even being raised.

 

[dude12]

I take some comfort in being in the 99.9% of the population who would never have marked him as a sustained 20ppg scorer, Petrie included BTW (Salmons was a backup plan for Bonzi and as I recall he asked Muss whether he wanted the guy (so maybe Muss was the 1% along with John's mom)). But regardless, the very reason I end up being right oftener than not is because I pay attention and shift my feet to reflect current realities. And the current realties are there in the numbers.

Sounds like a politician.....where did you hear this about Petrie not thinking Salmons could be the player he is....more spin control by you to make your opinions fit whatever point it is that your currently trying to make. You can look at numbers all day but KMart > Salmons even with the big contract.

 

[VF21]

You can't hold your water for a microsecond at a suggestion that Kevin be traded (which btw was never directly asserted in what is primarily a discussion thread) and switch instantly into discredit the thread/poster mode. That Kevin be retained is of course always going to be the majority opinion -- nearly a sacrosanct figure right now -- and many have stated such. Then there are those who find it so offensive they have to try to undercut the validity of the issue even being raised.

Um, what? All I did was ask if it should be in a different forum... and, as a matter of fact, once I reread the thread and responses I actually deleted that small comment.

If you would bother to look at the post I made first, you would see that I did address your comments although I really think the whole idea that this is overwhelmingly controversial is a little overstated.

And I would greatly appreciate it if you would just knock off the stupid demeaning comments like "you can't hold your water for a microsecond" etc. Thanks ever so...

 

[Bricklayer]

Sounds like a politician.....where did you hear this about Petrie not thinking Salmons could be the player he is....more spin control by you to make your opinions fit whatever point it is that your currently trying to make.

Please don't butt into conversatins when a) you weren't around then; and b) you don't have a clue to what you are even objecting.

Its a simple little logic game. Logic causes headaches, I know. But quite useful at times.

a) John Salmons is currently performing as a 20ppg 5reb 4ast starting OG/SF.

b) if Geoff had known this, he would have been hot on the trail from the instant he hit the free agent market that year. In fact if he had known this he would have been an utter fool not to have made numerous aggressive attemtps to trade for him, perhaps as far back as the Webber trade.

c) he did not. John was signed by another team, and only backed out because he heard voices in his head.

d) as I recall Geoff himself related the story about asking Muss what he thought of Salmons after the Bonzi thing started falling through. Was in the paper. If Geoff had know he was getting a 20ppg scorer for the MLE, there would have been no conversation.

e) if Geoff had known that Salmons was a 20ppg scorer, he would not have continued to pile up swingmen to the ceiling, and likely would have moved some of the obviously unneccsary ones he already had.

I know, its shocking. Its hard. Your tears may stain the I Luv Geoff Petrie poster hanging over your bed. But using logic, which is to say the grey matter most people possess, it seems evident that Geoff most likely thought that Salmons had some talent and might be able to help the team. But never THIS kind of talent. If he had known John was a 20ppg scorer, then his conduct before and since the signing has been inexplicable. And that BTW is likely the way things usually go -- you play hunches and see what happens. Now a chicken has come home to roost -- hence this thread.

 

[Glenn]

I never took this thread as one to determine who should be traded. Granted, any of them COULD be traded but as the team is now, I'd rather see Cisco and Douby gone. I don't want to see RonRon gone but I am in the minority. If Cisco and RonRon were traded and Douby simply not resigned, we would need Kevin, Salmons, Bibby (maybe depending on Dahntay Jones' development) and Beno.

As I mentioned in my note, trades are dependent on the trade partner(s) so simply picking the guys to trade does not reflect what the market may want and be willing to part with.

There are always injuries and we should know this better than any team and it's nice to have a warehouse full of talent even if they seemingly could steal minutes from another. So far this year they haven't stolen minutes and we are almost at mid season simply waiting for the next injury. I think a trade will have just as much to do with what we want or what is offered than which of the 4 guys is most valuable or gives the most bang for the buck. Only Bibby seems over priced but I discussed that as something inevitable in sports. The price of having a seasoned vet is that he will be overpriced yet who is the best go-to person and what is the value of that? Bibby can be resigned or not depending on what he wants and what we need. That moment in time hasn't arrived.

I figure any note written in this section is not as outrageously speculative as in the Personnel Moves section and more worthy of introspection.

 

[Superman]

I asked this question a couple days ago, and no one answered it. Why is Bibby better than Beno?

I guess Glenn's comment that Bibby has potential for big games and can actually be a leader/go-to guy on the floor has to play in there. Not sure we can afford to keep Bibby because of those things, though, especially if we're looking to go in a different direction.

And regarding John and Kevin, I'd rather have Kevin, I think. But John is showing that he has a bit more depth to his game, a bit more substance, and can do more than score. He also sometimes slips into a mode where he looks to do nothing but score (probably because he's the best person on the floor, offensively, with Bibby and Ron out), and he simply not good enough to score at will (ala Bryant, Anthony, other pure scorers). But he is inferior to players like Ginobili who maintain a constant balance between scoring and setting their teammates up. His defense and hustle are superior to Kevin's, if you ask me.

The thing that bothers me about Kevin, and I've mentioned this before, is that he's Peja Part II when it comes to forcing his will on a game, even when he's the best scorer on the floor. He struggles at times with creating his own shot (though I believe he is - and will be even more - superior to Peja in this regard), and can disappear for stretches.

I remember a playoff game against the Sonics where Peja was clearly able to score basically whenever he wanted to in the first half, but we were down 15 points or so at halftime. So we come out in the third and feed Peja, right? Wrong. The man didn't even touch the ball (literally) until six minutes had run off the clock. He drained a three. Didn't touch the ball for another three minutes. Went to the line. Didn't shoot again that quarter. We were down 20+ by the fourth. He didn't impose his will on the game, and I can only remember a handful of games in his 7 1/2 years with us that he did.

Ron Artest mentioned in a recent interview that Kevin doesn't step up and say "Give me the damn ball" like the best scorer on the team should. He's happy scoring 20 a game, but should be scoring 30. He's not a go-to player.

That having been said, I'm curious to see Beno, Bibby, Kevin, Ron and Brad on the floor together (as well as Bibby, Kevin, John, Ron and Brad). Seeing who steps up and declares their ability to be "the man", and then backs it up on the court should be telling. And if John, Ron or Mike, are not going to be part of our long-term plans, then we should move them while we can and try to improve our team for the future.

But I don't think Kevin is moveable, unless we bring in Amare Stoudemire or Dwight Howard.

 

[Rockmeister]

But I don't think Kevin is moveable, unless we bring in Amare Stoudemire or Dwight Howard.

Although Kevin is one of my favorite players, I would trade him in a heartbeat for either one of these players.