The Discussion We Will Not Have But Maybe Should Thread

[AriesMar27]

the only players on this team with the "give me the damn ball" mentality are ron and bibby... and like peja, martin doesnt really need it... as long as mike and ron are on the team... if our bigmen werent wimps he still wouldnt need it... look at the hornets, would they trade peja for salmons? no....

 

[dude12]

Please don't butt into conversatins when a) you weren't around then; and b) you don't have a clue to what you are even objecting.

If its on here, then its a public forum and open to other comments. Is that not the case?

 

[Gary]

Glenn, you are not in the minority. If I had a choice I would boot Cisco, Ron, and Douby out. Although probably keep Garcia, because it's good to have 3 swing players, 1 to back up, and 2 to start at sg/sf.

If I had a choice it would be Ron vs. Salmons... As for Bibby, vs. Beno none of us know. We don't know if Bibby will be 2006 Bibby, or what.. 2006 Bibby I still put ahead of Beno. Sorry folks. Beno is a good backup/spot starter/energy player, but he does not have enough experience yet. He still turns the ball over too much, and makes mistakes late in games by passing off of people feet. I like Beno though, and I am sure we won't be able to afford him after this year THANK YOU MIKKI MOORE, but I still think Bibby is better.

 

[fnordius]

Although Kevin is one of my favorite players, I would trade him in a heartbeat for either one of these players.

Easy call when you have available at SG:
Kevin
Ron
John
Francisco
Quincy
Dahntay
Mike or Beno, in a pinch

And at PF + C:
Brad
Mikki
Justin
Spencer

If you scratch SAR and KT, whose careers seem to be done, then everyone *except* for those 4 PF/C types above can play SG; literally 2/3 of our roster. We used to have a ridiculously deep team, now we are just insanely deep at SG/SF. Nobody who blocks 2 shots a game, or makes 7 assists, but man, do we ever have shooters. If I didn't know better, I'd suspect that some former shooting guards were influencing our personnel decisions.

And I think that situation justifies the existence of this thread. Something needs to be done to correct the feast... no, make that "morbid obesity"... on one side of the team, and remedy the famine on the other sides.

 

[Superman]

Although Kevin is one of my favorite players, I would trade him in a heartbeat for either one of these players.

Check this out.

http://kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24757

 

[kupman]

Although Kevin is one of my favorite players, I would trade him in a heartbeat for either one of these players.

I think everyone in Sac would be elated to see Kevin go. The people of Orlando and Phoenix may burn their cities down, however. Pao Gasol though?

I know, I know - no turning this into a trade discsussion. I will just say that Kmart is the only guy of the 4 that will make other teams salivate despite only being somewhat better.

 

[VF21]

I think everyone in Sac would be elated to see Kevin go.

Am I missing something? I would NOT be elated to see Kevin go...

 

[kupman]

Am I missing something? I would NOT be elated to see Kevin go...

If we landed Dwight Howard in the process? I would pack Kevin's bags and drive him to the airport. obvious grant reference

 

[VF21]

Ohhhhhhhhhh. That's the part I missed. I thought it was about Pau Gasol...



I love Kevin Martin but if moving him brought us Dwight Howard, well...

Bye Kevin! Thanks for everything!!!

I wouldn't be elated, though. There's a LOT about Kevin Martin I would really miss.

 

[Superman]

the only players on this team with the "give me the damn ball" mentality are ron and bibby... and like peja, martin doesnt really need it... as long as mike and ron are on the team... if our bigmen werent wimps he still wouldnt need it... look at the hornets, would they trade peja for salmons? no....

That's because Peja has more scoring ability than Salmons, same as Kevin does. Doesn't mean Kevin shouldn't be more assertive. In fact, your post points to the fact that no one else on our team is better suited for that "give me the damn ball" mentality.

My point is that Kevin's game is best suited for that mentality, as he's the best scorer on the team. Just like Peja was the best scorer on the team during the 2005 playoffs against Seattle, but did us a disservice by disappearing/allowing himself to be overlooked down the stretch.

Hearing Kevin's teammate say that he has exhibited that same trait is disquieting to me as a Kings fan. No doubt the guy can score, and does score 20 a night without greatly asserting himself. But if he had the mentality of a guy like Carmelo Anthony (another scorer, but not great all-around guy), he'd probably score closer to 30. Think we could use a 30ppg scorer around here?

This is the difference, to me, between a guy like Ray Allen and a guy like Kevin Martin.

 

[Superman]

Ohhhhhhhhhh. That's the part I missed. I thought it was about Pau Gasol...



I love Kevin Martin but if moving him brought us Dwight Howard, well...

Bye Kevin! Thanks for everything!!!

Yeah, I'm still not excited about Pau Gasol. In fact, I saw him in person over the holiday, and he let Luis Scola mop the floor with him (22 points, 11-17 shooting). Further strengthened my opinion that Pau Gasol is not worth moving Kevin.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Still not sure why it's Samons vs. Martin, not Salmons vs. Artest. I'm more than happy moving Artest and Bibby at the trade deadline for the right deal. I'm also more than happy to keep Salmons, Udrih and Moore around as players that work hard and are fun to watch during the rebuild. Ideally, with Bibby and Artest getting shipped out, you get a young prospect or picks that would eventually man the PG and PF spots. But I'd be OK if we finished the season with something like:

C Miller
C Hawes
PF Moore
PF Williams
SF Salmons
SF/SG Garcia
SG Martin
SG/PG Douby
PG Udrih

With, say, the #7, 15 and 18 picks; KT and SAR shipped out for expirings.

 

[Kingster]

I am not even sure if I believe in the questions raised by this thread myself, and I am quite sure that they are so politically incorrect, in terms of the Kings little kingdom, that they will be roundly decried and dismissed. Of course that's precisely why I had to start the thread -- nobody else would, and anything that will inspire such a kneejerk reaction from people, myself included, is normally worth a little investigation. So, two cases:

Case 1

John Salmons
Age: 28
Salary: 3yrs $16.5mil ($5.5mil per)
Stats as starter: 39.2min 19.6pts (.516 FG% .479 3pt% .813 FT%) 5.1reb 3.7ast 1.8stl 0.4blk

Kevin Martin
Age: 25 (in 3 weeks)
Salary: 5yrs $55.0mil ($11mil per)
Stats as starter: 39.4min 24.5pts (.434 FG% .398 3pt% .850 FT%) 4.9reb 2.1ast 1.4stl 0.1blk

Notes: who now has really been better? Five extra points, versus supperior efficiency, defense, and playmaking. What happens if you factor in that one player costs half as much as the other? Who is the better choice as starter going forward?


Case 2

Beno Udrih
Age: 25
Salary: N/A (FA after this season)
Stats as starter: 36.8min 14.0pts (.439 FG% .412 3pt% .852 FT%) 3.7reb 5.0ast 1.1stl 0.1blk

Mike Bibby
Age: 29
Salary: 1yr $14.5mil (player option)
*Stats as starter: 34.0min 17.1pts (.404 FG% .360 3pt% .830 FT%) 3.2reb 4.7ast 1.1stl 0.1blk

*stats from 06-07

Notes: again, who has been better of late? I know who has been more efficient and who has been cheaper... So who is the more cost efficient starter for the future?

You take Martin over Salmons because he's younger and more talented. In fact, I thought Salmons was 26 instead of 28, so I'd trade Salmons because by the time the team is legit, he'll be too old to participate, except as a spectator. I don't care what the $ is because in a couple of yrs Salmon's salary is increased considerably.

You trade Bibby for the same reason - he's too old for a rebuilding team. All the other stuff is superfluous. Unlike Salmons, I don't think Beno will get a big increase when his contract expires because I don't think he's going to have a big upside; hopefully we resign him as a backup. If Petrie resigns him with a starter's salary I'm going to reach through my computer and strangle him. As an aside, I'd like to know Beno's turnovers per game. Methinks it's not good.

 

[Glenn]

I like Beno though, and I am sure we won't be able to afford him after this year THANK YOU MIKKI MOORE, but I still think Bibby is better.

Beno can be signed with the MLE or a portion thereof and shouldn't want any more. I see the thread has drifted away from the topic.

 

[Rockmeister]

I think everyone in Sac would be elated to see Kevin go. The people of Orlando and Phoenix may burn their cities down, however. Pao Gasol though?

Hey, wait a minute, I NEVER said I would be ELATED to see Kevin go. I SPECIFICALLY stated he is one of my favorite players and if the Kings were offered either Amare Stoudemire or Dwight Howard, then I would do the trade. However, I wouldn't get rid of Kevin just to get rid of him. So, no, I wouldn't be elated to get rid of him.

 

[Jerryaki]

no.... martin is a borderline franchise player... he isnt kobe either but he is in the michael redd territory... salmons is the bobby simmons of the team...

now if only we could find a very talented chinese player to be our yi jianlin...

that would solve a lot of the fan/revenue problems. but also crash kingsfans' servers.

 

[AriesMar27]

now if only we could find a very talented chinese player to be our yi jianlin...

that would solve a lot of the fan/revenue problems. but also crash kingsfans' servers.

if it makes you feel better hawes can be our bogut.... and if garcia shaves his head and eyebrows he can be our villanueva...

 

[Sac.Kings]

Personally, I don't think its Martin vs. Salmons, but rather Salmons vs. Artest. We will get to see how the team responds when Martin and Bibby return soon. The offense runs much smoother when we have Salmons on the court rather than Artest, seeing as he loves to take a lot of shots. I think our scoring would increase noticeably when martin and salmons are in the linuep (SG and SF respectively) and either bibby or udrih starting. Artest is a great player, but the team just doesnt seem to do as good when hes on the court.

 

[NewArena]

Personally, I don't think its Martin vs. Salmons, but rather Salmons vs. Artest. We will get to see how the team responds when Martin and Bibby return soon. The offense runs much smoother when we have Salmons on the court rather than Artest, seeing as he loves to take a lot of shots. I think our scoring would increase noticeably when martin and salmons are in the linuep (SG and SF respectively) and either bibby or udrih starting. Artest is a great player, but the team just doesnt seem to do as good when hes on the court.

What? Salmons hogs the ball more than anyone if you ask me, and that is why it is so simple for me to say Martin> salmons. But i do agree that it shouldnt be salmons vs martin anyway.

Salmons scores 20 a game because he goes into that Iso mode and when he gets in a zone he wont even look for the open man. If we can somehow trade John and someone else for a big man that does what we need i would do it in a second. Kevin martin is still getting better, why all the comparisons to peja as if martin is a veteran?

This only martin's second fully year as a starter and he has already said he needs to become more agressive, and as time goes on i think he will be. He has made 3 or 4 game winning shots for us so its not like he is scared as hell to take big shots like peja was/is.

 

[Arby's Roast Beef]

I'm sort of torn on the Salmons-Martin issue. Both have shown their maximum abilities given playing time, and it's clearly obvious that Salmons is the much better all-around player than Martin; it's clearly natural for him, as he played an all-around player role at both college and in Philly. Even though he's gotten more one-on-one oriented, his passing ability is latent. There have been complaints about Martin being a bit too one-dimensional in this thread, and I'm leaning in that direction, but that's not necessary a bad thing. Rip Hamilton was considered solely scorer until he developed some passing abilities under his arsenal--I can see Martin going down that road, considering that his ballhandling ability is already there, and he's unselfish by nature. It's not second nature, but it can be developed. But the flip of the coin presents itself with Martin as the more natural scorer--billed throughout college, came into the league with that rep, and now has fulfilled it. Salmons sort of just exploded into the scene this year, and while I think it can be sustained, Salmons simply doesn't switch gears well--what I mean by this is that he's either in full scoring mode with his one-on-one play and being excessively dominant with the ball or he's either flowing within the system. Call for duty has made him step up his game with the injuries.

With those considerations in mind, my final judgment is Kevin Martin is more keeper. There are many variables into this--homegrown talent is obviously one of them, keeping fans in their seats is another, but--I just think he can adapt better than Salmons. There's something to be said about intangibles, adaptation, being an all-around nice guy, being hard working, such and such. Salmons, to me, just seems so "sudden." He's helped my fantasy team, but there have been signs--he pouts and doesn't produce 1/10th as well from the bench, and his one-on-one play seems a deterrant for a winning formula, IMO, although that can be corrected. But Martin seems just more natural at scoring within the flow, playing within the offense, while taking on the role of a go-to guy, which makes him the better investment (not to mention he's younger).

 

[Superman]

Kevin martin is still getting better, why all the comparisons to peja as if martin is a veteran?

This only martin's second fully year as a starter and he has already said he needs to become more agressive, and as time goes on i think he will be. He has made 3 or 4 game winning shots for us so its not like he is scared as hell to take big shots like peja was/is.

I'm not comparing Martin to Peja on a talent level. I'm comparing their mentalities. And it has nothing to do with game-winning shots. It's about him imposing his will on the game, as the best offensive option on the team. He doesn't often enough. He has a teammate that feels the same way.

 

[NewArena]

I'm not comparing Martin to Peja on a talent level. I'm comparing their mentalities. And it has nothing to do with game-winning shots. It's about him imposing his will on the game, as the best offensive option on the team. He doesn't often enough. He has a teammate that feels the same way.

And my point was GIVE HIM TIME to do so, he is not a veteran. That mentality doesnt have to be there forever does it?

 

[AleksandarN]

You know it got me thinking. Kevin is better suited because being younger. Both salmons and Marin are similar talent wise. But I do think salary comes into play. John being cheaper in the long run will help especially if we want to do a total rebuild. Kevin's prime years will wasted during the rebuild so that would be a waste in cap IMHO. Whereas John's salary is very reasonable and the talent drop off is very little between the two.

The same above applies to the Beno/Bibby situation.

 

[Bricklayer]

And my point was GIVE HIM TIME to do so, he is not a veteran. That mentality doesnt have to be there forever does it?

The Kevin/Peja comparisons have always worked on a number of levels, from personality and favored homegrown son status, to statistical output and career arc.

Kevin Yr 3:
35.2min 20.2pts (.473 .381 .844) 4.3reb 2.2ast 1.2stl 0.1blk 1.7TO

Peja Yr 3:
38.7min 20.4pts (.470 .400 .856) 5.8reb 2.2ast 1.2stl 0.2blk 2.0TO


Which obviously does not mean that everything goes identically in the future. But it is to say that that there are a lot of obviosu similarities betwen the two players, and using Peja's career as one possible future is not entirely off the wall.

 

[AleksandarN]

with salmons this is similar to the laker discussion about bynum... good player but he isnt and shouldnt be the go-to player.... salmons isnt kobe and he isnt artest... salmons is the type of player that we needed after we traded doug and before we traded peja... he isnt even better than a player like luke walton... and would you trade kevin for luke walton? no.... martin is a borderline franchise player... he isnt kobe either but he is in the michael redd territory... salmons is the bobby simmons of the team...

beno is the back that we have been waiting for but now we dont have the starter in the lineup.... unless we are drafting a pg for the future i dont see why we would trade bibby over beno...

and we wouldnt be having this conversation if reef and thomas had any trade value last summer and were traded...

John Salmons = Luke Walton


the talent difference is ot even close. I bet even Laker fans would agree. If Petrie offered John for Luke Lakers would even blink twice before accepting.

 

[Alacron]

I am quite sure that they are so politically incorrect, in terms of the Kings little kingdom, that they will be roundly decried and dismissed.

Hasn’t happened.

I know its not as intellectually enlightening as an I Love This Team!!! thread, but some of us are just strange that way.
…
You can't hold your water for a microsecond at a suggestion that Kevin be traded
…
That Kevin be retained is of course always going to be the majority opinion -- nearly a sacrosanct figure right now -- and many have stated such. Then there are those who find it so offensive they have to try to undercut the validity of the issue even being raised.
…
Logic causes headaches, I know.

Sorry… who is supposed to be doing the decrying and dismissing here?

You could have used a more accurate preface and said, “I am going to discuss something here that I feel I may catch some flack for, so I’d like to preemptively question the intelligence/open-mindedness/motives of anyone who would challenge my position.”

Brick, you’re a smart guy, entertaining, and contribute a lot to the board that we are all grateful for, but you seemed to go into this discussion with an adversarial, win/lose attitude, and though that battle hasn’t materialized, you’re still fighting it. And considering your opening post did not actually state any conclusions, but only raise (fair) questions, I have to wonder why you would take this approach.

MHO, of course. Moving on...

~~

 

[Fear the Putin]

You have to also take into account that John Salmons scores big numbers whenever Martin and Artest are out (either both or one of them). Sure, he is a really polished player with a great overall game, but for some reason he likes to get too trigger happy at times. Not to the point of how Artest does it, but still enough to start yelling "PASS!". Add to the fact that he chokes just as much as anybody on our team in the clutch other than Mike and sometimes K-Mart. Once again, nothing against Salmons, but you have to also take into account their age. Martin still has loads of potential untouched ala defensive stride.

As for the Bibby v. Udrih convo. If we are talking about the future and are ready to put the present aside for a couple of years, then yes Udrih is the answer. If not, then no question that Bibby can and will help us. He is the man we are missing when the game is 94-92 with 1-2 minutes to go. But, instead we have guys trying to be heroes, or trying to create spectacular moves in the clutch.

 

[NewArena]

The Kevin/Peja comparisons have always worked on a number of levels, from personality and favored homegrown son status, to statistical output and career arc.

Kevin Yr 3:
35.2min 20.2pts (.473 .381 .844) 4.3reb 2.2ast 1.2stl 0.1blk 1.7TO

Peja Yr 3:
38.7min 20.4pts (.470 .400 .856) 5.8reb 2.2ast 1.2stl 0.2blk 2.0TO


Which obviously does not mean that everything goes identically in the future. But it is to say that that there are a lot of obviosu similarities betwen the two players, and using Peja's career as one possible future is not entirely off the wall.

And im not saying someone is crazy for the comparison, but to just assume that martin wont Improve in that agressive part of his game doesnt make sense.

 

[Bricklayer]

Hasn’t happened.



Sorry… who is supposed to be doing the decrying and dismissing here?

You could have used a more accurate preface and said, “I am going to discuss something here that I feel I may catch some flack for, so I’d like to preemptively question the intelligence/open-mindedness/motives of anyone who would challenge my position.”

Brick, you’re a smart guy, entertaining, and contribute a lot to the board that we are all grateful for, but you seemed to go into this discussion with an adversarial, win/lose attitude, and though that battle hasn’t materialized, you’re still fighting it. And considering your opening post did not actually state any conclusions, but only raise (fair) questions, I have to wonder why you would take this approach.

MHO, of course. Moving on...

~~

No actually I went into the thread with a "let's start an interesting discussion and get out of the way" attitude and had little intention of even posting in it. Hence the open ended initial post and general lack of opining on my part. I had little position to challenge, except that there is an issue here deserving of discussion. And by and large its turned into a nice discussion out here in the middle of the doldrums of a long season. But yes, I anticipated trouble, and gee, shocker.

As for yourself, I'm not going to opine too far except to imagine you probably missed the point rather than desired to tangle. So here was the point you missed: people have weighed in left and right on the issues raised by the thread. I have responded to exactly zero of them. Then again some people have attacked either the thread or myself for starting the thread. Those I have responded to. Those I will always respond to. And yes when doing so I can decry and dismiss with the best of them.

 

[Alacron]

The Kevin/Peja comparisons have always worked on a number of levels, from personality and favored homegrown son status, to statistical output and career arc.

Kevin Yr 3:
35.2min 20.2pts (.473 .381 .844) 4.3reb 2.2ast 1.2stl 0.1blk 1.7TO

Peja Yr 3:
38.7min 20.4pts (.470 .400 .856) 5.8reb 2.2ast 1.2stl 0.2blk 2.0TO

Here are some reasons Kevin is better than Peja:
1. Peja in the lineup meant no boarding from our SF position-- the sacrifice we made to get his scoring. Kevin, on the other hand, provides that scoring without taking away the rebounding impact of a frontcourt player.

2. Kevin has already improved more skillwise in his three years than Peja has in his entire NBA career.

3. Kevin has the advantage in quickness and athleticism.

4. Peja shied away from contact; Kevin seeks it out (Reggie Miller leg-flails notwithstanding).

5. In a similar vein, here's another stat from year three: Peja averaged 4.2 free throws per game, while Kevin averaged 7.1.

6. When Peja had the above stats from year three, his fellow starters included Vlade Divac, Doug Christie, Jason Williams, and Chris Webber. How many gimmes did Peja get from those passes? Martin shared the floor with Bibby, Miller, Artest, and whatever served as a PF.

7. Peja was not even the leading scorer on that team; he was the second option. Playing opposite a 27.1 PPG monster may have taken some of the heat off. Martin was his team's top scorer by year three.

8. No matter how one wants to spin it, your numbers show that Martin scored at a higher rate at greater efficiency in fewer minutes with fewer turnovers on a worse team.

9. Peja doesn't do basketball at home.
~~