Nighthawk1
Starter
I just base it going off the BPA that is willing to play there to be honest, but ya I agree with you...
I just base it going off the BPA that is willing to play there to be honest, but ya I agree with you...
Vlade4GM
All-Star
I don't know what the market for Rubio is going to look like, but honestly they need to pick one of Thabeet/Harden and just call their bluff. Most of the time players aren't looking to pull a Steve Francis, they're just trying to hedge their bets most likely. They'll probably back off their stance and do the whole "I'm glad to be here, they have a bright future" song and dance once they saw that they had to go there.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Thabeet reminds me somewhat of a former Sacramento Kings legend, the great Duane Causwell!
Great size, good but not great athleticism, excellent shot blocker, very limited offensive skills.
Oh no --he's a lot bigger and more gifted as a shotblocker than Causewell was. The problem with Duane was that in order to rack up his shotblocking numbers he had to fly all over the place. He tried to block anything and everything, constantly left his man and lost rebounding position, and in general kind of inflated his block numbers by neglecting everything else.
But whatever else Thabeet can or cannot do, he is a remarkable prodigy at blocking shots. In another league altogether from Causey. And it doesn't mean he's going to average 7 blks a game or anything, but unlike Causewell he has an innate feel for shotblocking. He rarely leaves his feet, rarely loses position inside, blocks them with either hand, and is really sophisticated about when to go for the block and when to back off rather than pick up a pointless foul. I've mentioned before that its no exaggeration to say he could have blocked 6 a game in college if he was chasing everything the way Causewell did. He blocked 4+, and it was easy, high percentage stuff. Rarely got in foul trouble. Only left his man at the last second if everybody else on defense had failed.
Telemachus
Starter
I actually think that Causwell is a good comparison (have even used in the past). They both lack an offensive game and have a tendency to put the ball on the floor when they should just go straight up with it. Both have poor hands IMO, although nobody has hands as bad as Causwell. Both averaged about 4 blk a game in college.
I watched Thabeet play several times this season. I felt he missed out on a lot of rebounds because he was out of position going after a block. He has good instincts as a shot-blocker, but still got out of position on defense and for rebounding way too much IMO. When you consider how he got pushed around by physical players in college as well, it makes me wonder how he will fair in the NBA going against phyical players almost every night. I had a lot of problems with causwell during his career, but at least he didn't get pushes around by smaller players just because they got physical. He pushed back.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I'm not sure if you ever watched Causewell play or not, but if you did you would know there was no comparison whatsoever. Any shotblocker is, by the nature of their job, going to lose position from time to time. That's the nature of the beast. So does Dwight Howard. But what Causey did was something else altogether. There were times he would front his man just to be in better shotblocking position. He never, ever, recovered if the man he initially challenged dropped the ball off. Or if he did recover at all it was to hack. And he fouled, and fouled, and fouled, because he tried to block everything all the time in completely brainless fashion. He was also seveal inches shorter than Thabeet, necessitating even more movement, and 20lbs lighter than him. There really was very little comparison. They come from entirely different schools of blocking shots. One is the big tree back there intimidating by size alone. The other was like a larger Josh Smith running around chasing everything.
There is a reason one was the Defensive Player of the Year and anchor for a Final Four team and the other...was not.
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Telemachus
Starter
I am well aware of how Causwell played. I got to watch his entire career with the Kings. I agree that he went for the block way too much. I also think Thabeet goes for the block way too much. Not as much as Causwell, but then Causwell didn't try for blocks as much his first year with the Kings as he did later on. Once he found that shot-blocking was the only thing that would get him playing time, he focused on it almost exclusively. I can see the same thing happening with Thabeet.
And I'm sorry, but Causwell was 7ft while Thabeet is 7'2. That is not a huge difference IMO. Don't really care about the 20 lbs. Camby came into the league at about 220 lbs. It also makes me wonder once again why Thabeet let himself get pushed around by physical players who were smaller than him.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I don't even know what to say when people make claims like that. You might as well have just said that the Earth is flat and you don't want to sail too far for fear of falling over the edge.
I've been watching shotblockers come and go for 25 years now, and Hasheem Thabeet has as much discipline as any shotblocker I have ever seen. And the size is an absolutely huge factor in that -- like Mark Eaton he is so big that he barely ever has to leave his feet -- it makes a huge difference when you are big. Thabeet blocks them while barely having to shift his stance, he intimidates by just raising an arm. Short guys have to paratroop, Thabeet almost never does. And the proof was in the pudding -- he rarely fouled anybody on a block attempt. That's extraordinarily rare for a shotblocker, and basically impossible if you are running around chasing stuff.
I've been watching shotblockers come and go for 25 years now, and Hasheem Thabeet has as much discipline as any shotblocker I have ever seen. And the size is an absolutely huge factor in that -- like Mark Eaton he is so big that he barely ever has to leave his feet -- it makes a huge difference when you are big. Thabeet blocks them while barely having to shift his stance, he intimidates by just raising an arm. Short guys have to paratroop, Thabeet almost never does. And the proof was in the pudding -- he rarely fouled anybody on a block attempt. That's extraordinarily rare for a shotblocker, and basically impossible if you are running around chasing stuff.
Telemachus
Starter
I have been watching them for 30 years, and best shot-blocker I have seen was Hakeem. He had the best instinct and timing of any shot-blocker I have seen. Not old enough to have seen Wilt or Russell, but most hold them as the best shot-blockers of all time. Only 1 of those 3 were over 7ft tall BTW. While Thabeet was a big presense in college, his size will not be overwhelming in the NBA. I also fail to see how Thabeet is a huge presense in the lane at 7'2 260, and Causwell is a short guy at 7'0 240. Vlade was 7'1 265, and no one would call him intimidating in the paint.
Like I have said before, the strengths and weaknesses of Thabeet are very similar to those of Causwell. Now I think Thabeet will be a better NBA player, but that is not saying much since Causwell was a waste of a uniform IMO. I just think that Thabeet is going to have a career as a role player that comes off the bench to block shots and grab some rebounds while playing 10-20 minutes a game. I don't want to waste a #4 pick on a player that I believe will spend the majority of his career coming off the bench.
Section 101
All-Star
How many NBA big body types did he go against? IE Yao's, Shaq's, Duncan's, Howard's, Oden's, Gasol's, Millers (Just Kidding!!)
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Hakeem did have great instincts and timing...and you know what? He hopped around in there like a rabbit. Lost position constantly, because he was too small and had to jump to block things. Difference with him was he was so quick that he could instantly recover it.
As an aside, constantly trying to shrink Thabeet an inch ins't going to win you the argument, so you might as well just go with his listed height.
As an aside, constantly trying to shrink Thabeet an inch ins't going to win you the argument, so you might as well just go with his listed height.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I've mentioned this before, but Shaq aside those big bodies are EASIER for a big guy to cover than a little 6'7" forward, in the same way that its easier for a SG to guard a SG than a little darty PG.
None of the great shotblockers of the past consistently matched up with NBA level guys sizewise either until they hit the league.
gunks
Hall of Famer
I think the main issue with Thabeet is that he may be a one trick pony.
Shotblocking, thats it. He'll probably be able to grab a few offensive boards, but will most likely have trouble establishing position for defensive ones because of his high center of gravity.
Apparently he has a midrange shot. So I guess he wont be a complete non factor on Offense. But aside from shotblocking I dont think he'll be a good man defender in the NBA.
That being said....A shotblocking specialist would be a great 3rd big to come off the bench behind JT and Hawes. Especially since both JT and Hawes can play both the 4 and the 5, so that rotation would be fine position wise. But a bencher at pick #4? I dunno...
We might actually be able to trade down to nab Thabeet, he's been slipping on the mocks with all the guards starting to impress. But I doubt Petrie does that, he isnt a Petrie player.
...As wary as I am of Thabeet, I would LOVE for the Kings to have a shotblocking big on the roster. I was a Keon fan back in the day, and he was the last one we really had. I just dont know about Thabeet at 4. Harden, Evans, and even Flynn probably have higher ceilings.
Shotblocking, thats it. He'll probably be able to grab a few offensive boards, but will most likely have trouble establishing position for defensive ones because of his high center of gravity.
Apparently he has a midrange shot. So I guess he wont be a complete non factor on Offense. But aside from shotblocking I dont think he'll be a good man defender in the NBA.
That being said....A shotblocking specialist would be a great 3rd big to come off the bench behind JT and Hawes. Especially since both JT and Hawes can play both the 4 and the 5, so that rotation would be fine position wise. But a bencher at pick #4? I dunno...
We might actually be able to trade down to nab Thabeet, he's been slipping on the mocks with all the guards starting to impress. But I doubt Petrie does that, he isnt a Petrie player.
...As wary as I am of Thabeet, I would LOVE for the Kings to have a shotblocking big on the roster. I was a Keon fan back in the day, and he was the last one we really had. I just dont know about Thabeet at 4. Harden, Evans, and even Flynn probably have higher ceilings.
Maybe you just got more unhappy with Causwell over time... ? That would be easy to understand. His two most prolific shotblocking years were his first two; most blocks per game, most blocks per season, and two of his three best shotblocking years per 48 minutes. His points/48, steals/48, and FT% also declined pretty steadily, while his personal fouls per 48 steadily increased. My impression at the time was that he didn't have the competitive spirit needed to keep in shape and improve his skills, and also lacked the smarts to improve with experience. So as he aged, his play just got worse.
That's a pattern you don't see all that often in the NBA... fortunately.
Telemachus
Starter
I think he actually played smarter his first couple years in the league. As he realized that it was his shot-blocking that kept him on the floor, he focused more on that part of his game. The result was more fouls, which led to less playing time and fewer blocks. It also didn't help that he had two of the worst hands the NBA has ever seen. That just gave him no hope on offense. And how many rebounds did he knock down (instead of grabbing) only to reach down for the ball and realize it was no longer there.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Thabeet is not an instinctive basketball player. He has no natural feel for the game. Other than shot blocking. All that means is that he would have been a good volley ball player too. But all other aspects of the game have had to be learned, and it has come hard for him. He didn't even know what a basketball was till he was 15 years old, and then he probably thought it was something he was susposed to eat. OK, that might be a little extreme.
I think I have seen every game the guy has played thats been televised. I didn't just come to the table late and see a couple of good games and fall in love with him. I have as they say, no dog in this hunt. I wish him no ill. I gain nothing by degrading him. There's no ego involved here. He's not an extention of my, well, you know what I mean. He's not my red corvette.
He is far from being a good basketball player. He's a one note somba, and if you can live with that, fine! Given time, he may develop into a decent offensive player. Especially on the garbage end. Right now he's not a very good rebounder. I don't give a damm about his stats. I'm talking about actually fighting for position and fighting for rebounds. I saw guys that were half his size take the ball right out of his hands. A lot of the rebounds that he got, he got simply because he was standing in the right place and he was 5 inches taller than anyone else. I have more respect for Harangody at 6'7" pulling in 10 boards a game than I do Thabeet. Especially when Harangody played a much tougher schedule
He doesn't run the floor that well and sometimes is very lazy in transition. I can't wait to see him get caught in a switch with Chris Paul. Were not talking college here. Were talking about the NBA. Where everything moves at a much faster pace. A pace he's never seen before. Its going to take time for him to adjust, and so far he's proven to be a slow adjuster.
To be brutally honest, I think his chance of being a bust is higher than his chance of being a star. I hope I'm wrong. I don't wish failure on anyone. I've had my share of it in my life and its never pleasant. If for some reason we end up with him, which doesn't seem likely for a variety of reasons, I really hope I'm wrong about him. But as much as I want the Kings to improve defensively, and as much as I would love to have a great defensive player on the Kings. I'm not ready to slide between the sheets with Thabeet just yet.
As an aside. I happen to have a little inside info on the great Duane Causwell. He scored the lowest score in the hand to eye coordination test in Kings history. Hell! maybe in NBA history. He didn't have the greatest Basketball IQ either. And, the Kings did him no favors by shoving him into the starting lineup almost from the get go. But the dude was a very good athlete. What more do you need.....
I think I have seen every game the guy has played thats been televised. I didn't just come to the table late and see a couple of good games and fall in love with him. I have as they say, no dog in this hunt. I wish him no ill. I gain nothing by degrading him. There's no ego involved here. He's not an extention of my, well, you know what I mean. He's not my red corvette.
He is far from being a good basketball player. He's a one note somba, and if you can live with that, fine! Given time, he may develop into a decent offensive player. Especially on the garbage end. Right now he's not a very good rebounder. I don't give a damm about his stats. I'm talking about actually fighting for position and fighting for rebounds. I saw guys that were half his size take the ball right out of his hands. A lot of the rebounds that he got, he got simply because he was standing in the right place and he was 5 inches taller than anyone else. I have more respect for Harangody at 6'7" pulling in 10 boards a game than I do Thabeet. Especially when Harangody played a much tougher schedule
He doesn't run the floor that well and sometimes is very lazy in transition. I can't wait to see him get caught in a switch with Chris Paul. Were not talking college here. Were talking about the NBA. Where everything moves at a much faster pace. A pace he's never seen before. Its going to take time for him to adjust, and so far he's proven to be a slow adjuster.
To be brutally honest, I think his chance of being a bust is higher than his chance of being a star. I hope I'm wrong. I don't wish failure on anyone. I've had my share of it in my life and its never pleasant. If for some reason we end up with him, which doesn't seem likely for a variety of reasons, I really hope I'm wrong about him. But as much as I want the Kings to improve defensively, and as much as I would love to have a great defensive player on the Kings. I'm not ready to slide between the sheets with Thabeet just yet.
As an aside. I happen to have a little inside info on the great Duane Causwell. He scored the lowest score in the hand to eye coordination test in Kings history. Hell! maybe in NBA history. He didn't have the greatest Basketball IQ either. And, the Kings did him no favors by shoving him into the starting lineup almost from the get go. But the dude was a very good athlete. What more do you need.....
Telemachus
Starter
Thabeet is 7'1.25 w/o shoes, and 7'2.5 w/ shoes. Which means he will likely be listed at 7'3, but we will see. We are talking about 2 inches in height. I saw Causwell play enough to know that he was at least 7'0 with shoes (probably a bit taller), but they didn't give us their measurements back then.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
We are talkign about two inches in height.
As if that does not matter.
Sacramento Kings fans should be one of the most educated fanbases in the world on just how MUCH that matters. Two inches of height is a world out there. It moves you from just a big guy into a huge guy status. It changes everything. It moves you from one of dozens of big guys in roughly the same area, to one of 3 or 4 in the whole world playing at the NBA level. If you are 7'0" tall you look Pau Gasol in the eye and have to be more skilled than he is to win the battle. If you are 7'3" (or 7'2.5", however you like it) you loom over him and have a built in, can never take it away, size advantage on all but 2 or 3 guys in the whole league. You are talking 99th percentile in size vs. a guy who was mayeb 60th or 65th percentile. And that makes a huge (pun intended) difference.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
You know, I don't disagree with everything in your post, but this...is again wrong.
He has been an amazingly QUICK adjuster. His growth from Year 1 to Year 3 is astronomical and given how new he is to the game there is no particular reason to think its going to stop abruptly upon hitting the NBA. And as I have repeatedly pointed out to people who claim to have watched every game, but who either fell asleep or are just flat out lying, his growth and learning curve IN SEASON was amazing. He lost a handful of battles all year, but the amusing thing was just how much he improved even from meeting to meeting. Ooh, the big bad Blair game. I saw it. It was a big bad Blair game. Blair was awesome, no doubt about it. 20 and 20 of musclely studliness. But somehow I think all around this board you heard the sound of TVs being switched off a tad early. Odd thing happened if you were watching, big bad Blair and Thabeet met a couple of weeks later again. What do you think happened? Do you think Blair got 20-20 again? You would be wrong. You think he even got 10 and 10? You would still be wrong. How about 8pts 8rebs (while Thabeet got 14pts 13rebs 5blks). Thabeet learned, adjusted, and two weeks later beat the same man who been Big Bad Blair less than a month before. Luke Harangody had a mixed bag against Thabeet the first matchup. He did his thing, he scored, but he was intimidated and shot poorly (10-23). But that was nothing compared to the second matchup after Thabeet got the timing down. Harongody was awful that game (14pts 5rebs 7-18 shooting), could get nothing done at all, and it was the worst performance of the year for him (Thabeet checked in at 16pts 11rebs and 8blks). These are matchups in the same season.
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bajaden
Hall of Famer
Look, we both know that this is subjective. Yeah, Thabeet ended up with better numbers than Blair in the second game, but then Blair sat on the bench in foul trouble for most of that game. See! I did watch it. Now you could argue that Thabeet got Blair in foul trouble, but once again it comes down to a matter of opinion. The truth is, in my opinion, that Blair should have been called for more fouls in the first game and probably fewer fouls in the second game.
When you look at Thabeets growth, it was all in his last year. I'm not discounting that, but from beginning to end, most of it came at the end. A good comparison would be Hill. He basicly started playing at the same time Thabeet did, and I would argue that he is more skilled overall than Thabeet is. Now he's not blessed with Thabeets height, but his ability to adjust his game came at a faster rate than Thabeets did.
I will finish by saying, that in almost every athlete's career, there is a point where a light comes on. Whether your a quarterback or a pitcher in the major leagues, or a basketball player. There comes a time when you suddenly get it. Maybe that happened to Thabeet, and if so, his progress will accelerate, and someone will get a good basketball player. We'll see in about three years or so...
Section 101
All-Star
Showing his bust potential already.
25 mins, 8.2 ppg, 45.2 % FG, 4.6 rebounds, .8 BPG, 2 TO and 5 PF per game,
Marcus Williams the PG averaged 4.6 rebounds.
Darrel Arther had 1.5 BPG.
And people were worried about JT's play.
25 mins, 8.2 ppg, 45.2 % FG, 4.6 rebounds, .8 BPG, 2 TO and 5 PF per game,
Marcus Williams the PG averaged 4.6 rebounds.
Darrel Arther had 1.5 BPG.
And people were worried about JT's play.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
He no doubt had an awful summer league. But actually awful enough to almost throw parts of it out. When a 7'3" shotblocker who blocked more shots than Patrick Ewing in college doesn't even block shots during summer league, something is wildy amiss and extremely unlikly to continue to say the least. It does suggest however that something hinted at before may have been a factor -- he really seemed to have developed a comfort zone with Calhoun as a father figure at UConn and it he may take some time to adapt to the NBA (a good thing in this case that Memphis has both Gasol and Randolph ahead of him to take staring pressure off). Training camp will be interesting. Wonder who he is training with?
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Simple stat lines never tell the whole story. Does he make his team better?
Memphis swept their SL games, outscoring their opponents by an average of 17.6 points, while limiting them to embarrassing, abysmal shooting percentages.
I sure wish we had a bust who could do that for us.
--------------------------
Memphis-OKC: W, 86-57. OKC shoots 37%. Marcus Camby, watching the game, says "He's definitely going to be a dominant defensive force."
Memphis-NYK: W, 90-86. NYK shoot 36%.
Memphis-LAC: W, 85-68. LAC shoot 35.7%, and even Blake Griffin can't break the 40% mark.
Memphis-PHX: W, 97-60. Suns shoot 33.3% in this crushing 37-point blowout.
Memphis-SAS: W, 76-75. Spurs shoot 41.5%. Thabeet looks tired in this back-to-back, plays an uninspired game. It happens.
Amory
Bench
Very good post. I didn't get to see any of the games and was just looking at his stats.
I wouldn't call him a bust just yet...
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
While I wouldn't say Thabeet is a bust, Carrol, Young, Williams, and Jeff Adrien had far more to do with the success of Memphis than Thabeet. Thabeet still did look good here and there though. It was amazing to watch that Iranian dude hit the floor after Thabeet and you realize, "hey, this is how a 7'2" dude usually moves!" Thabeet has the coordination of a PG compared to other big players.
SacTownGrantFan
Bench
What really impresses me about Thabeet-
He can win his team games defensively, without filling up the stat line.
Just imagine if he is also able to fill up the stat line.
He can win his team games defensively, without filling up the stat line.
Just imagine if he is also able to fill up the stat line.
CruzDude
Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
I watched him play and in several games he was completely out played and in most games looked lost out there. This is summer league and 90-95% of every team roster, save the first rounders, don't make the NBA. It is a step above college but a number of top college teams could beat most if not all VSL teams. At 7-3 and dominant like he was in college one has to wonder if the Peter Principal suddenly has risen for young Thabeet.
The Peter Principal says everyone rises to their level of incompetence. It surely is not the real NBA but it is above most of the competition he played. Makes one wonder why he did so poorly. Every other first rounder, especially the lottery picks played extremely well. Gotta make you wonder..........he was a star in college??
Sure makes me happy Kings took Tyreke!!!
The Peter Principal says everyone rises to their level of incompetence. It surely is not the real NBA but it is above most of the competition he played. Makes one wonder why he did so poorly. Every other first rounder, especially the lottery picks played extremely well. Gotta make you wonder..........he was a star in college??
Sure makes me happy Kings took Tyreke!!!
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
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