Still continue with the Princeton O?

[BenchMob]

It seems that running the Princeton O requires big men to pass (ie Webb/Divac/Miller). Won't that lessen our chances even more to find someone else in the offseason to do that, let alone an athletic player (ie Webb of old) who could rebound and pass? I'm just wondering if a change in scheme will be needed and I assume if RA is going to be around that the princeton O will remain. Just rambling some thoughts.

 

[hrdboild]

I don't think our offense has really been a serious concern since the Princeton O was implemented, so I don't really see why it should change. I don't think passing is a particularly rare skill in a big man who's a quality basketball player. I don't really remember, but I don't think Chris Webber had the reputation of being a great passer when he came to Sacramento. I think a good deal of that came from playing with guys like J-Will and Vlade and realizing how much fun it is to move the ball around. Brad certainly didn't come in with the reputation of a passing big man yet he was stringing together triple doubles playing with Vlade and the gang. It's contagious I think. As long as we find someone who is a team player and smart enough to understand how the offense works, I think they'll fit right in. Brad's got to set a good example of course, but I'm sure he will. And I don't know if you've watched some of the other teams that rely more on one player to set up everything, but it's not pretty.

 

[bigbadred00]

Webber has always been a good passer, Brad was a decent one in Indy. Princeton O makes them better no doubt but you can't take our game and make them anything near as good as Chris, Vlade or Brad passing was out of Thomas and Songalia.

 

[tyrant]

I don't think our offense has really been a serious concern since the Princeton O was implemented, so I don't really see why it should change. I don't think passing is a particularly rare skill in a big man who's a quality basketball player. I don't really remember, but I don't think Chris Webber had the reputation of being a great passer when he came to Sacramento. I think a good deal of that came from playing with guys like J-Will and Vlade and realizing how much fun it is to move the ball around. Brad certainly didn't come in with the reputation of a passing big man yet he was stringing together triple doubles playing with Vlade and the gang. It's contagious I think. As long as we find someone who is a team player and smart enough to understand how the offense works, I think they'll fit right in. Brad's got to set a good example of course, but I'm sure he will. And I don't know if you've watched some of the other teams that rely more on one player to set up everything, but it's not pretty.

yes. i agree full heartedly

 

[Kev.in]

We'll stick with the Princeton offense as long as Pete Carrill or one of his disciples are on the coaching staff.

 

[bigbadred00]

I know offence was the problem in the 2nd half but then again WERE not running it right now, assists are WAY down. But when we do run it the offence is NEVER a problem, the DEFENCE has always been our major problem.

 

[Packt]

I don't think our offense has really been a serious concern since the Princeton O was implemented, so I don't really see why it should change. I don't think passing is a particularly rare skill in a big man who's a quality basketball player. I don't really remember, but I don't think Chris Webber had the reputation of being a great passer when he came to Sacramento. I think a good deal of that came from playing with guys like J-Will and Vlade and realizing how much fun it is to move the ball around. Brad certainly didn't come in with the reputation of a passing big man yet he was stringing together triple doubles playing with Vlade and the gang. It's contagious I think. As long as we find someone who is a team player and smart enough to understand how the offense works, I think they'll fit right in. Brad's got to set a good example of course, but I'm sure he will. And I don't know if you've watched some of the other teams that rely more on one player to set up everything, but it's not pretty.

Webber always had a rep of being a great passer. It's one of the reasons why he was brought here. Plenty of big man can be considered good passers, but Webber and Vlade are in a league of their own as far as passing touch.

Brad is good also, but he doesn't have quite the vision that Webber and Vlade had. Thomas and Songaila can make the easy clear path passes, but they aren't able to move the ball between a crowd. Webber and Vlade did that spectacularly.

 

[Venom]

I say ditch it, it's never really won anything, and it's a terrible playoff offense. I believe Brick and I have had some threads about this before. My alma mater runs it currently, and Brick is from the Ivy League, but basically the Princeton offense is too gimmicky to work consistantly in the playoffs, and its terrible for manufacturing pressure shots.

I imagine we keep elements of it, but depending on personnel, the high post offense may get kicked to the curb. Petrie is infatuated with it though, and a guy like Tyson Chandler could step right in and resurrect it. We'll know after this summer.

 

[Stojakovic]

Run the princeton-o with Skinner, Thomas and Ostertag ?

Give me a break. Songaila may be the only big man on our team who can pass it fairly decently, but he's not made for the princeton-o either.

Bring Webb and Vlade back, then we can talk

 

[BenchMob]

Thats my main concern is finding a big man to run it good, it kind of limits our selection of players. I mean, if we find a big who is athletic, rebounds, can score (I know im being unrealistic ) but not passes worth a damn, do we have to adjust the offense to make it work or can Brad alone be the passing big man.

FYI, excuse my ignorance on the Princeton O

 

[LPKingsFan]

This was preifly discussed last summer after we were eliminated by Minny. The question then was whether the Princeton Offense was built to succeed in the regular season and fail in the playoffs. Right now, I'm not convinced one way or another.

Our lack of inside presence NEEDS to be addressed this summer. We have Miller as our high post passer, we don't need another one. You can talk about bringing Webb and Vlade back, but let's be real people.

 

[bozzwell]

I say ditch it, it's never really won anything, and it's a terrible playoff offense. I believe Brick and I have had some threads about this before. My alma mater runs it currently, and Brick is from the Ivy League, but basically the Princeton offense is too gimmicky to work consistantly in the playoffs, and its terrible for manufacturing pressure shots.

I imagine we keep elements of it, but depending on personnel, the high post offense may get kicked to the curb. Petrie is infatuated with it though, and a guy like Tyson Chandler could step right in and resurrect it. We'll know after this summer.

I remember that. I wish we had old Forum available, Brick's thread about Princeton deficencies down the stretch of close games and in 4th quarter of close play-off games was what turned me from lurker to poster. I think it is plain to see that finess players and finess style of play are sorely lacking when things tighten up to the point where any flow is interrupted (both by the intensity of your opponent and how much intensity/tension builds up on your side). That is not to say that Princeton should be ditched altogether. It is excellent for building team concept, getting most out of journeyman players and it allows players with skill to flurish. However, it must be augmented with either young athletic superstar(s) capable of taking over games in the clutch or by play calling that is more suitable to the crunch situations (identifying first one-on-one missmatches, which would depend on available players).

 

[Packt]

I say ditch it, it's never really won anything, and it's a terrible playoff offense. I believe Brick and I have had some threads about this before. My alma mater runs it currently, and Brick is from the Ivy League, but basically the Princeton offense is too gimmicky to work consistantly in the playoffs, and its terrible for manufacturing pressure shots.

I now fall into this camp. To be succesful you need someone who can play within the system, but is still capable of freelancing when defenses clamp down. Hard to find players like that. Most players are either one or the other. Our collapse last night can be attributed to not being able to set the Princeton O up due to the pressure from the Sonics. They forced us out of our comfort zone, and into scattered one-on-one play.

 

[LPKingsFan]

I now fall into this camp. To be succesful you need someone who can play within the system, but is still capable of freelancing when defenses clamp down. Hard to find players like that. Most players are either one or the other. Our collapse last night can be attributed to not being able to set the Princeton O up due to the pressure from the Sonics. They forced us out of our comfort zone, and into scattered one-on-one play.

If we had a real go-to big guy who could create when everything fell apart, we'd still be ok. Webb was that before he got hurt. Peja will never be that. Bibby has shown signs, but I don't know anymore. It helps to be big and be able to create in the paint.

While the Kings could do just fine splittling the MLE between Dan Gadzuirc and Reggie Evans in terms of rebounding, the go-to post presence wouldn't be there.

And sounds like the Bulls will match pretty much anything for Chandler, so good luck with those hopes...

 

[Bricklayer]

Well three things:


1) passing might be the single rarest of all skills in a big man. You can find a decent passer maybe, but a game turner? A guy who can run an offense? That's tough. Sometimes its easy to forget just how good Webb and Vlade were. Arguably the best passing C/PF tandem in the history of the NBA. Its going to be very tough to find even one guy at that level again (Brad is good, but not the same sort of consistent impact passer). KG could do it. There are a few other guys who have shown flashes here and there and maybe could step up.

2) Webb was the magic man in a way that is not often mentioned -- he was the guy with the skills to run the Princeton offense, but who did not HAVE to be a finesse player, and a cog in the system. He could also be an athlete, shotblocker, rebounder. Create on his own. He could play within the system but was not limited to it. That was invaluable and very rare. The system, like all systems, will break down from time to time. If all your guys are limited to playing within it, then when it braks, you're in trouble. The real trick is finding guys who can play outside the system if it breaks down, but who do not intentionally break it themselves.

3) Rick Adelman has not always run the Princeton offense -- his old Portland teams were great offensive teams without it. And of course its influence in Sacramento can really be traced to Pete Carril, who is quite old now, not in great health, and who has talked about returning back East to be closer to his family. So it would not surprise me at all if with the team largely disassembled Petey called it a career and returned home after this season. And if that happens, we might move a little away from the Princeton. Don't think we will ever leave it entirely behind as long as Rick/Geoff are here, but to run it at such a high level as we did for all those years requires some very specialized personnel which we may not be able to reacquire. And if you don't have them its kind of like trying to run the West Coast offense in football without Joe Montana and Steve Young. With average players directing it, it becomes an ineffective dink and dump offense.

 

[ReinadelosReys]

This was preifly discussed last summer after we were eliminated by Minny. The question then was whether the Princeton Offense was built to succeed in the regular season and fail in the playoffs. Right now, I'm not convinced one way or another.
.

And perhaps the answer to the question lies within the question itself. Maybe we've been all too concerned about the offense, when all along we should have been trying to improve the D.

 

[LPKingsFan]

And perhaps the answer to the question lies within the question itself. Maybe we've been all too concerned about the offense, when all along we should have been trying to improve the D.

I'm not going to argue with you there, but for some reason I remember going fishing last summer more dissatisfied with the team's offense than defense in the playoffs. May have just been me...

 

[acisking]

Well three things:


1) passing might be the single rarest of all skills in a big man. You can find a decent passer maybe, but a game turner? A guy who can run an offense? That's tough. Sometimes its easy to forget just how good Webb and Vlade were. Arguably the best passing C/PF tandem in the history of the NBA. Its going to be very tough to find even one guy at that level again (Brad is good, but not the same sort of consistent impact passer). KG could do it. There are a few other guys who have shown flashes here and there and maybe could step up.

2) Webb was the magic man in a way that is not often mentioned -- he was the guy with the skills to run the Princeton offense, but who did not HAVE to be a finesse player, and a cog in the system. He could also be an athlete, shotblocker, rebounder. Create on his own. He could play within the system but was not limited to it. That was invaluable and very rare. The system, like all systems, will break down from time to time. If all your guys are limited to playing within it, then when it braks, you're in trouble. The real trick is finding guys who can play outside the system if it breaks down, but who do not intentionally break it themselves.

3) Rick Adelman has not always run the Princeton offense -- his old Portland teams were great offensive teams without it. And of course its influence in Sacramento can really be traced to Pete Carril, who is quite old now, not in great health, and who has talked about returning back East to be closer to his family. So it would not surprise me at all if with the team largely disassembled Petey called it a career and returned home after this season. And if that happens, we might move a little away from the Princeton. Don't think we will ever leave it entirely behind as long as Rick/Geoff are here, but to run it at such a high level as we did for all those years requires some very specialized personnel which we may not be able to reacquire. And if you don't have them its kind of like trying to run the West Coast offense in football without Joe Montana and Steve Young. With average players directing it, it becomes an ineffective dink and dump offense.

Well said Brick. As much as I hate to quote Kenny and Charles there is something that they said in the postgame show that really struck me. They mentioned how the Kings really did trade away their two best passers and how they have gone from the best passing team in the NBA to just an average team in terms of sharing the ball. Brad may be the best passing big we have but although he is certainly above average, he does not possess the same type of decision-making ability that vlade and chris had with their high basketball IQs. Their respective departures are the biggest difference in the Kings offense and arguably more significant than other factors such as Peja's lack of playoff mentality (which we always deealt with in the past) or Mike's new problems (which are probably due to the increased fatigue and pressure put on him to carrry the team offensively).

 

[acisking]

I'm not going to argue with you there, but for some reason I remember going fishing last summer more dissatisfied with the team's offense than defense in the playoffs. May have just been me...

No i agree with you LP Kingsfans...I remember feeling the same way after sac pretty much shut down dallas and competed pretty well against minnesota defensively. However, the truth is that deefensive needs certainly are the more pressing concern.

 

[HndsmCelt]

IF the Kings were planning on keeping most/any of the new guys I'd say scrap it asa lost cause with a buch of guys wo cann't/won't pass... But I supect the survivors of the summer trades will need to know the systm as the guys that GP really wants will no doubt be good passers as will the core players that stay (most likely Bibby, Miller, Bobby and to some degree Pedja)

 

[VF21]

2) Webb was the magic man in a way that is not often mentioned -- he was the guy with the skills to run the Princeton offense, but who did not HAVE to be a finesse player, and a cog in the system. He could also be an athlete, shotblocker, rebounder. Create on his own. He could play within the system but was not limited to it. That was invaluable and very rare. The system, like all systems, will break down from time to time. If all your guys are limited to playing within it, then when it braks, you're in trouble. The real trick is finding guys who can play outside the system if it breaks down, but who do not intentionally break it themselves.

Pretty fitting tribute ... I admit to intending at some point to steal it and use it.

 

[KP]

Well said Brick. As much as I hate to quote Kenny and Charles there is something that they said in the postgame show that really struck me. They mentioned how the Kings really did trade away their two best passers and how they have gone from the best passing team in the NBA to just an average team in terms of sharing the ball. Brad may be the best passing big we have but although he is certainly above average, he does not possess the same type of decision-making ability that vlade and chris had with their high basketball IQs. Their respective departures are the biggest difference in the Kings offense and arguably more significant than other factors such as Peja's lack of playoff mentality (which we always deealt with in the past) or Mike's new problems (which are probably due to the increased fatigue and pressure put on him to carrry the team offensively).

Good post AKing^. I really hope Petrie can work some magic in the offseason. The princeton offense is "Kings basketball", or at least everything that is good about it. It would be a shame to have to abandon it, when it is the main reason this team got to where they did, but you guys are all correct, with the guys we have now we may not be able to.