Starting SG spot will be Thornton or Jimmer?!?

K

KingMilz

Guest
#31
McLemore is NOT ready to start. He showed that clearly tonight.

He has a lot of work to do on the defensive end. He's now gotten worked against Crawford twice. He'll have to D up guys much like Crawford (and much better) on a nightly basis and he'll be placed against some of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA like Tony Allen/Thabo/Iman Shumpert etc. His energy and athleticism make his defensive ceiling extremely high, but it has not translated yet. Nor do I expect it to translate this season.
Thornton got cooked by Willie Green and Jimmer got cooked by Jodie Meeks that in comparison to getting tough shots scored on you by Crawford it's nothing. He's more than ready to start the kid has game and has looked calm and composed everytime he has been on the floor in preseason regardless if he's making shots or not.

Damn looks like he will not be startng
Ben McLemore will come off the bench to start the season according to coach Mike Malone.
"You can make a case for him as a starter, but I love him in an off the bench role right now," said Malone, and it's looking more and more likely that the final exhibition game was a preview for the team's starting lineup. In that game they started Greivis Vasquez, Marcus Thornton, John Salmons, Patrick Patterson and Boogie Cousins. Oct 27 - 5:32 PM
 
Last edited by a moderator:

dude12

Hall of Famer
#32
A couple of weeks ago I had suggested that Jimmer was able to do the same thing that MT was capable of doing especially based on the new offensive system. More to the point, I thought Jimmer, if he just sat on the 3 point line could be an asset as that is what he does well and I was really being critical of MT. I think Ben should be playing 30+ minutes and one of the other SGs about 15.

Then Jimmer started against the Warriors and he was not very good. Trying to do too much. He is a guy that could have a role but its completely contingent on the players around him being very good offensive players where he can then just spot up. Now if we had a SF that was really good offensively and paired with Cuz and PPats outside game and GV setting it up, maybe Jimmer could find a good role but he's just limited. Personally, I think very little of MT. He's just not my type of player and I think in a structured offense he's lost and he looks that way right now. For those times when he's red hot, I guess you just ride him.

I think eventually whether its this year in a trade or next year, we won't have either Jimmer or MT or Salmons for that matter. For now, since Malone likes Ben off the bench, I don't care who starts at SG as it might not matter but I do want Ben in at the end of the game.....that is what's important.
 
#38
I will do a wild prediction and say that Thorton starts for a few months (to up his trade value) and then gets traded, which then allows McLemore to start and Jimmer to come off the bench. So Jimmer probably won't play much until then.

Or Jimmer gets traded. That could very well happen as well. Heh, I guess this can be my dark horse prediction.
 
#39
I will do a wild prediction and say that Thorton starts for a few months (to up his trade value) and then gets traded, which then allows McLemore to start and Jimmer to come off the bench. So Jimmer probably won't play much until then.

Or Jimmer gets traded. That could very well happen as well. Heh, I guess this can be my dark horse prediction.
Jimmer has some immediate trade value. As a relatively cheap expiring and with a skillset that could help a contending team with lackluster bench scoring. Both for his sake and the Kings, I'd hope that he could be moved for something valuable. Thornton's contract is big enough that it will be hard to move him unless he's putting up 18+ ppg, and the question becomes, do you want to move him?
 
#40
Ben McLemore will come off the bench to start the season according to coach Mike Malone.
"You can make a case for him as a starter, but I love him in an off the bench role
right now," said Malone
that quote kind of goes along with what most Kings fans seem to be thinking. that Ben will come off the bench and get acclimated to the NBA and sooner than later he will take over that starting SG spot this year.
 
3

3me

Guest
#42
The last couple of years has clearly shown that MT is superior to Jimmer. To disagree with this is to have an agenda.
Jimmer's better than MT and i'd bet my life on it. Better shooter, passer, playmaker and handler. Better IQ. Just flatout better. However, when you aren't given a real opportunity, you simply can't prove that. Jimmer's had the shortest leash on this roster since he's been here. I'll be happy when his tenure in Sacramento is over.
 
#44
Jimmer's better than MT and i'd bet my life on it. Better shooter, passer, playmaker and handler. Better IQ. Just flatout better. However, when you aren't given a real opportunity, you simply can't prove that. Jimmer's had the shortest leash on this roster since he's been here. I'll be happy when his tenure in Sacramento is over.
Thornton's ball handling is easily better than Jimmer's. neither of the two are strong playmakers, and I'd give the passing to Thornton. Thornton can drive a hundred times better than jimmer can, and marcus can finish with contact. MT23 has come up big in 4th quarter situations.
 
3

3me

Guest
#45
Thornton's ball handling is easily better than Jimmer's. neither of the two are strong playmakers, and I'd give the passing to Thornton. Thornton can drive a hundred times better than jimmer can, and marcus can finish with contact. MT23 has come up big in 4th quarter situations.
You had me at Thornton and passing.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#46
No, there isn't. Jimmer had a great preseason and I think showed he can be a solid contributor off the bench. But he suffers the same problem as with starting McLemore right out of the gate. You'd be making him our #2 scorer with the starting 5. That is a frightening proposition and not one I want to try anytime soon.
I know were all predisposed to something. I personally have never looked at a team and thought, this is the number one scorer, that this is the number two scorer, and so on. I think its obvious that when you have a Kobe or a Lebron on the floor, that most of the team is going to defer to that player. I don't think its reasonable to say that a Jimmer can't be in the starting lineup, because that makes him the number two scoring option on the floor. In no way am I advocating that Jimmer be the starting SG. I really don't care. If Malone thinks that will work, then lets find out. If it doesn't, we'll know soon enough. What I'm saying, is that if Jimmer becomes the number two option because he starting at the SG position, that speaks volumes about the rest of the team, and that's not his fault.

You could argue that Jimmer didn't score that well in his last appearance. Truth is, he was very well guarded. They had made up their minds that they weren't going to leave him open. But in a way, that's exactly what you want from him. He makes them guard him, which opens up the floor for others. He actually does help spread the floor. Now I can list a lot of reasons for him not to start, but I won't. They've all been posted many times. Jimmer plays a position, and as long as he plays that position well, the rest of the stuff doesn't matter, and I don't particularly care where he falls in the scoring pecking order. What I care about is winning! If he helps us do that, then I'm fine with it. If not, then start someone else.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#47
Thornton's ball handling is easily better than Jimmer's. neither of the two are strong playmakers, and I'd give the passing to Thornton. Thornton can drive a hundred times better than jimmer can, and marcus can finish with contact. MT23 has come up big in 4th quarter situations.
Your right about the ballhandling, but not the passing. Jimmer is a far better passer and has much better BBIQ than Thornton. Thornton is the better finisher, but that goes back to the ballhandling. Jimmer is the better shooter, and I do think that has to be taken into consideration. That said, I'd start Thornton. Just trying to be fair.
 
#48
I know were all predisposed to something. I personally have never looked at a team and thought, this is the number one scorer, that this is the number two scorer, and so on. I think its obvious that when you have a Kobe or a Lebron on the floor, that most of the team is going to defer to that player. I don't think its reasonable to say that a Jimmer can't be in the starting lineup, because that makes him the number two scoring option on the floor. In no way am I advocating that Jimmer be the starting SG. I really don't care. If Malone thinks that will work, then lets find out. If it doesn't, we'll know soon enough. What I'm saying, is that if Jimmer becomes the number two option because he starting at the SG position, that speaks volumes about the rest of the team, and that's not his fault.

You could argue that Jimmer didn't score that well in his last appearance. Truth is, he was very well guarded. They had made up their minds that they weren't going to leave him open. But in a way, that's exactly what you want from him. He makes them guard him, which opens up the floor for others. He actually does help spread the floor. Now I can list a lot of reasons for him not to start, but I won't. They've all been posted many times. Jimmer plays a position, and as long as he plays that position well, the rest of the stuff doesn't matter, and I don't particularly care where he falls in the scoring pecking order. What I care about is winning! If he helps us do that, then I'm fine with it. If not, then start someone else.

I'm saying the same thing. And that's why you don't start him. Assuming GV takes the starting PG role, your other starters are likely Salmons and Ppat. Neither are guys you can rely on for points or should rely on for points. They are there to hit 3s and clean up messes. And the whole point of GV is for him to get EVERYONE else involved, otherwise we would start IT. While i think he'll probably hover around 12 PPG, he's not a guy you want to rely upon for scoring

Which, leaves the SG as the position which needs to pick up a majority of the offense after Boogie in the starting lineup. If we had someone like Danny Granger, Luol Deng or Rudy Gay then Jimmer would actually make a ton of sense. His spot-up ability and unselfish nature would play extremely well off Boogie and another scorer. Sort of Steve Kerr esq. But someone other than Boogie needs to shoot as well. We can't just dump it to him every single possession and hope that works. Dallas got away with it 2 years ago because 1. They had 4 exceptional defensive players (Kidd, Stevenson, Marion, Chandler) 2. Dirk played out of his mind that year and has been a top 5 offensive player for a better part of the last 10 years and 3. Terry, there #2 option played 30+ MPG anyway. Unfortuantely, we don't have ingredient 1 or 2 on the team.

And right now, Thornton is the only guy with any history of being able to fill that 2nd scorer role. Or even more simply put; have success against a starting NBA defense. The 3rd quarter of last game was great offensive basketball.GV-Thornton-Cousins were starting to get some chemistry together. I'd prefer we continue to develop that while we bring McLemore along slowly.
 
#50
Jimmer has some immediate trade value. As a relatively cheap expiring and with a skillset that could help a contending team with lackluster bench scoring. Both for his sake and the Kings, I'd hope that he could be moved for something valuable. Thornton's contract is big enough that it will be hard to move him unless he's putting up 18+ ppg, and the question becomes, do you want to move him?
I agree Hadlowe, but my feeling is that the Kings would prefer to trade Thorton (if possible), as I don't think he would fully accept coming off the bench like Jimmer would. But comparing salaries and what a contending team would need, Jimmer would be easier to trade - although you would think he would have to be in a package deal if you want a valuable big.
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#51
The biggest thing to me that seperates Jimmer/Thornton is Thornton's ability in transition to get us easy buckets/time his leak outs and finish with contact just based on that I would rather Marcus paired up with Vasquez, plus he's better in most other areas.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#52
Lol....what would that agenda be? To have a differing opinion?
We've done this before.

Jimmer has certain skills, but he has done absolutely nothing in this league. Marcus Thornton on the other hand is an absolutely proven 15+ ppg scorer given minutes, and maybe 20ppg in the right system. He's carrying around an 8+ million contract because he flashed flat goto guy stuff a couple of years back when he was popping up on the fringes of Top 10 SG lists. You don't have to think his play style is conducive to what we are trying to accomplish here to recognize that this is an entirely different level animal.

Jimmermania has made fools out of a lot of people who should know better. Its a really strange disease. Juan Barea has accomplished far more in the NBA, but I think you'd find few enough Minny fans arguing for him to start over Kevin Martin. Memphis fans aren't arguing for Bayless to start over Tony Allen. I think there were actually a few fools in Portland looking for McCollum to start over Matthews, but that was standard draft hype overexcitement. If McCollum spent two years in the league as a spot player I doubt they'd continue. But Jimmer just remains an odd fascination for many.
 
Last edited:
#53
It will be good to get MT some consistent mins this season. Last seasons inconsistent rotations affected all. He can absolutely get back into that top 10 SG conversation. He came into this season in good shape and is clearly focused and comfortable with Malone
 
#55
It will be good to get MT some consistent mins this season. Last seasons inconsistent rotations affected all. He can absolutely get back into that top 10 SG conversation. He came into this season in good shape and is clearly focused and comfortable with Malone
See, I don't agree with that at all. My biggest worry with Thornton and Malone has been the history between the two in NO. Thornton was actually an absolute stud his rookie year in New Orleans while Chris Paul was injured, with a few 30+ point games. He and Darren Collison looked like steals for New Orleans. A year later, he was completely out of the rotation, with most of the credit going to his lack of defense. Monty Williams was obviously the guy making the rotational decision, but Malone was the defensive guy on that coaching staff, and I can't help but think he had to have issues with Thornton's play as well.

The first three games of this preseason, Thornton looked completely out of sorts. He still got his points and did it fairly efficiently (yay), but he looked disinterested on defense and disappeared on offense. It wasn't until the Clippers game that he looked at all like he was willing or able to play as part of a defensive unit or within the flow of the offense, and he still forced up about five ugly shots in that game. I still have serious doubts about whether he can play as part of a disciplined team concept. Some of his defensive bad habits will remain (playing passing lanes instead of guarding his man, leaking out on rebounds or loose balls, etc.)

To me, it all comes down to who can play as Cousins' sidekick better. Thornton is enough of a threat from downtown that you can't just leave him open, but he doesn't move into open spaces along the perimeter as well as Jimmer of McLemore do. He can create for himself better than Jimmer or McLemore can, but doesn't get other players involved as well as either of them. I know some people have said he is the better dribbler, but really Thornton is a one or two dribble guy who hoists his shot off a few limited moves. He doesn't penetrate off the dribble very often at all. His takes at the rim are almost all off of fastbreaks or backdoor cuts.

I prefer Jimmer over Thornton as a relatively cheap combo guard team player and because I think he shows more discipline to play better team scheme defense. I prefer Thornton over Jimmer if you absolutely need 5 points and you don't care how you get them or who you tick off along the way.
 
#56
I don't think there is a Jimmer vs. MT question when comparing overall game and experience unless your objective is to get Jimmer promoted. Jimmer's future in the NBA hasn't anything to do with Thornton who probably will be gone by season's end. Give Jimmer some more quickness and agility and he would be a career NBAer.
 
#57
I think MT will get his chance here to begin the season on the starting unit. I also think in time Ben will be the Kings starting 2 guard. Maybe this year or perhaps next year. Jimmer has a spot as fifth guard in a combo guard role.

All that said if a team offers a quality starting caliber SF or a defensive Big for MT or Jimmer and other players that trade will get done ASAP.
 
#58
We've done this before.

Jimmer has certain skills, but he has done absolutely nothing in this league. Marcus Thornton on the other hand is an absolutely proven 15+ ppg scorer given minutes, and maybe 20ppg in the right system. He's carrying around an 8+ million contract because he flashed flat goto guy stuff a couple of years back when he was popping up on the fringes of Top 10 SG lists. You don't have to think his play style is conducive to what we are trying to accomplish here to recognize that this is an entirely different level animal.

Jimmermania has made fools out of a lot of people who should know better. Its a really strange disease. Juan Barea has accomplished far more in the NBA, but I think you'd find few enough Minny fans arguing for him to start over Kevin Martin. Memphis fans aren't arguing for Bayless to start over Tony Allen. I think there were actually a few fools in Portland looking for McCollum to start over Matthews, but that was standard draft hype overexcitement. If McCollum spent two years in the league as a spot player I doubt they'd continue. But Jimmer just remains an odd fascination for many.
Would it be a fair statement to say that Jimmer hasn't done anything because he hasn't been given a real opportunity, in a real system and a defined role? Something that Thorton has had in his previous teams.

Yes, some of this probably falls on Jimmer for not being aggressive and perhaps selfish enough. But the real quesions is who would be the better teammate working alongside Cousins within Malone's system?
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#59
See, I don't agree with that at all. My biggest worry with Thornton and Malone has been the history between the two in NO. Thornton was actually an absolute stud his rookie year in New Orleans while Chris Paul was injured, with a few 30+ point games. He and Darren Collison looked like steals for New Orleans. A year later, he was completely out of the rotation, with most of the credit going to his lack of defense. Monty Williams was obviously the guy making the rotational decision, but Malone was the defensive guy on that coaching staff, and I can't help but think he had to have issues with Thornton's play as well.

The first three games of this preseason, Thornton looked completely out of sorts. He still got his points and did it fairly efficiently (yay), but he looked disinterested on defense and disappeared on offense. It wasn't until the Clippers game that he looked at all like he was willing or able to play as part of a defensive unit or within the flow of the offense, and he still forced up about five ugly shots in that game. I still have serious doubts about whether he can play as part of a disciplined team concept. Some of his defensive bad habits will remain (playing passing lanes instead of guarding his man, leaking out on rebounds or loose balls, etc.)

To me, it all comes down to who can play as Cousins' sidekick better. Thornton is enough of a threat from downtown that you can't just leave him open, but he doesn't move into open spaces along the perimeter as well as Jimmer of McLemore do. He can create for himself better than Jimmer or McLemore can, but doesn't get other players involved as well as either of them. I know some people have said he is the better dribbler, but really Thornton is a one or two dribble guy who hoists his shot off a few limited moves. He doesn't penetrate off the dribble very often at all. His takes at the rim are almost all off of fastbreaks or backdoor cuts.

I prefer Jimmer over Thornton as a relatively cheap combo guard team player and because I think he shows more discipline to play better team scheme defense. I prefer Thornton over Jimmer if you absolutely need 5 points and you don't care how you get them or who you tick off along the way.
Well now, this is spot on and well said.
 
#60
I think Thornton probably starts. However, last year MT was injured quite a bit. Unlike last year under Coach Dumb, I think if any of the guards get injured, Jimmer will get significant minutes. I would be shocked if all of our guards make it to the all-star break without someone getting banged up and missing time. I could also see Jimmer getting inserted into the lineup if the team starts out slow or Thornton struggles. If Jimmer gets an opportunity, he may run with it and gain the confidence of the coaching staff if he doesn't already have it. Also, a good indicator of Jimmer's future role may be whether his option gets picked up in the next 3 days.