Starting SG spot will be Thornton or Jimmer?!?

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
Kevin Martin isn't severely undersized though. He's an adequate athlete as well.
Kev has been considered underweight all of his career, to the point where some thought he was "too fragile" to play.

All I'm saying is that there are certain situations where a lack of defense doesn't necessarily mean there's not a place for you. I still maintain that shabazz916's comment was flawed for that very reason.
 
Wouldn't have been close if Jimmer played heavy minutes.
Kev has been considered underweight all of his career, to the point where some thought he was "too fragile" to play.

All I'm saying is that there are certain situations where a lack of defense doesn't necessarily mean there's not a place for you. I still maintain that shabazz916's comment was flawed for that very reason.
indeed, but it's not a single lack that we're talking about with jimmer, is it? it's not just that jimmer is a poor defender. it's not just that jimmer is severely undersized. unfortunately, it's the entire package of "cons" weighed against a very minimal set of "pros." on top of being an undersized SG and a poor defender, jimmer is also rather unathletic. in retort, one might say "yeah, well, a player like greivis vasquez is slow-footed, too." this is true, but vasquez is also a phenomenal floor general and has size for a PG, providing him with increased court vision and additional passing lanes over the top of the defense. jimmer isn't blessed with superior PG instincts, nor is he blessed with the kinds of physical gifts one sees in many other backup guards across the league...

on top of these faults, jimmer also has a weak handle under defensive pressure, a particularly detrimental lack in an nba-caliber guard. in retort, one might say "yeah, well, a player like ben mclemore can't dribble, either." this is true, but mclemore is also a superior athlete with adequate height to play the SG position. kevin martin may be of a skin-and-bones build, but he's also got the height to play SG, he's moderately athletic, and he's got a knack for drawing fouls at the rim. can one say all of the same things about jimmer? i know it sounds like i'm piling on, but it's just my honest evaluation of a player who's had a disproportionate amount of hype and hoopla surrounding his limited ability to compete in the nba...

i've said it many times: it's not that jimmer fredette doesn't have a place in the nba; in a different era, it would have been considerably easier for him to see consistent court time. but it is my estimation that, in the contemporary nba, there will always be a more athletic guard, a taller guard, a guard with a better handle, a guard who can get to the rim, a guard who is a better defender, etc, in front of jimmer in the pecking order. there are too many journeymen guards with a greater combination of skills and physical gifts that will likely beat out jimmer for minutes. hell, isaiah thomas, the 60th pick in a draft class in which jimmer was picked 10th, is severely undersized and a poor defender and an unrepentant chucker, but he's also got a napolean complex and a drive to compete amongst the trees, and he beat out jimmer for minutes...

isaiah thomas has proved that he belongs. he's carved out his own niche on a bad team that presented him with the opportunity to prove his worth. some kings fans are quick to forget that jimmer was given the very same opportunity to play himself into the rotation during his rookie and sophomore seasons. and there were jimmer fans bold enough to play the race card when IT leapfrogged jimmer in the kings' crowded, mediocre backcourt, claiming that keith smart undercut jimmer in favor of a black player. it's been that ludicrous. now the kings have a white head coach, so what's the excuse this time around? for all my criticisms of IT over the last couple of seasons, i still maintain that i am a fan of his as a super-sixth-man off the bench. jimmer has not yet found a way to earn consistent minutes...

now, will a team sign jimmer next offseason? i'm sure some GM out there will take an inexpensive flyer on a guy who can flat-out shoot the ball. will a coach work jimmer into his rotation? i'm sure somebody out there will want to see how much jimmer's ability to shoot the ball is worth on the court. will jimmer earn consistent, meaningful bench minutes deep into a given season? i'm not so sure of the answer to that last question. he strikes me as a journeyman 10th/11th/12th man. again, i tend to believe that, as valuable as efficient shooters are in the nba, that efficient shooting needs to be paired with enough other skills/physical gifts to earn its place. this is professional basketball we're talking about here, after all. at BYU, jimmer was not plagued by comparison to the kinds of athletes and skillsets you typically see at the professional level. it's why nobody expected a team to take him as high as 10th in his draft class...
 
When sports become about who is mechanically built to be the best at the game, they become less fun. We want to see people beat the odds - we like underdogs. That's why IT is such a big hit. Jimmer did that in college. Same limitations in college... he faced off against Kawhi Leonard (and yes Kawhi guarded him on occassion) and other bigger faster defenders all of the time, and he scored a crazy amount of points.

I get that the competition wasn't the same... As Padrino points out, this didn't prove that he deserved even a lottery pick, and the Kings reached. IT flat out bested him in the first season - no argument. Since then, Jimmer has seen sporadic minutes / been part of the overall logjam at Guard that has affected nearly every guard on the team... the exception being IT for whatever reason.... Maybe it is his Napoleon complex.

Jimmerfans want to see him get a shot... He was actually starting to play fairly well that first year when he got yanked for IT. The problem was that the Kings were losing under their new head coach and he needed to try something different. Only the kings kept on losing after that too and we found out sooner than later that Keith Smart (while he's a nice guy... I wish him the best....) doesn't have what it takes to be a head coach at the NBA level.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
It's all been said before and seen, Padrino. I am not sure that the people you are directing your comments at are ready to accept an objective and obviously well thought out analysis, even a great one.

I have a comment or two also. People say he doesn't fit on the Kings. If he doesn't fit on the Kings, where does he fit? The Kings need outside shooting so the floor can be stretched. That is Jimmer's basic talent. We don't need a PG. We even have an outsized PG to pair him with in the back court to cover defense for his size as an undersized SG. He has ALWAYS been on a team where there was another very tall guard to pair him with.

It boils down to investment vs return. Is it worth spending $3 mil on someone who might play? Probably if not emphatically not. It is worth the veteran's minimum and no more. If Jimmer has put his money away wisely and I suspect he has, he doesn't have to work another day in his life. He can play overseas somewhere. I am not an athlete but I once pretended to be one as a youngster. The love of the game is in the playing. It sure isn't satisfied by sitting. If Jimmer is like me which is perhaps a stretch, he would probably rather play overseas than sit on the bench in the USA. It would eat me alive to sit on the bench and at a vastly diminished salary, it might not be worth it to stick around the NBA.

He has more options than most of us. He has more money than most of us. He at least has enough money to be secure. I don't measure success or happiness by the size of my bank roll but there is a certain minimum amount of money any person needs. Now he can go off and play and have fun but not in the NBA.
 
I have a comment or two also. People say he doesn't fit on the Kings. If he doesn't fit on the Kings, where does he fit? The Kings need outside shooting so the floor can be stretched. That is Jimmer's basic talent. We don't need a PG. We even have an outsized PG to pair him with in the back court to cover defense for his size as an undersized SG. He has ALWAYS been on a team where there was another very tall guard to pair him with.
From day 1, I thought Jimmer would be a complementary backcourt piece next to Tyreke on offense assuming that Tyreke was the primary ballhandler. We got, what, five games of that in the two years they played together? Then Coach Smart moved Tyreke off the ball so IT could start, and we never really saw the Jimmer/Tyreke tandem get any run together after that.

I don't think Vasquez is even remotely the type of player you want to pair with Jimmer. Size-wise it works okay, but Vasquez doesn't draw doubles, doesn't go hard to the rim, and doesn't defend his own man, let alone filling in for Jimmer's lapses. When the new F.O. declined to match on Tyreke, I kind of mentally filed that away as the end of Jimmer's time with the Kings. A sidekick without the superhero is kind of pointless.

Here's hoping he lands on his feet somewhere after the season.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
According to the sources, fwiw, they think us moved sometime between December and trade deadline in February. I think it may happen sooner rather than later. If they move him for a pick then we can activate Ray Mc for games. His expiring contract has upped his value a bit. If you pair him with Salmons and his expiring, maybe we can land a piece but I think the organization is going to want the cap room next year.
 

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
According to the sources, fwiw, they think us moved sometime between December and trade deadline in February. I think it may happen sooner rather than later. If they move him for a pick then we can activate Ray Mc for games. His expiring contract has upped his value a bit. If you pair him with Salmons and his expiring, maybe we can land a piece but I think the organization is going to want the cap room next year.
VERY LIKELY in my book. The rebuilding teams will be having fire sales later this season for picks and enders. This could be very good season to steal talent.
 
It's all been said before and seen, Padrino. I am not sure that the people you are directing your comments at are ready to accept an objective and obviously well thought out analysis, even a great one.

I have a comment or two also. People say he doesn't fit on the Kings. If he doesn't fit on the Kings, where does he fit? The Kings need outside shooting so the floor can be stretched. That is Jimmer's basic talent. We don't need a PG. We even have an outsized PG to pair him with in the back court to cover defense for his size as an undersized SG. He has ALWAYS been on a team where there was another very tall guard to pair him with.

It boils down to investment vs return. Is it worth spending $3 mil on someone who might play? Probably if not emphatically not. It is worth the veteran's minimum and no more. If Jimmer has put his money away wisely and I suspect he has, he doesn't have to work another day in his life. He can play overseas somewhere. I am not an athlete but I once pretended to be one as a youngster. The love of the game is in the playing. It sure isn't satisfied by sitting. If Jimmer is like me which is perhaps a stretch, he would probably rather play overseas than sit on the bench in the USA. It would eat me alive to sit on the bench and at a vastly diminished salary, it might not be worth it to stick around the NBA.

He has more options than most of us. He has more money than most of us. He at least has enough money to be secure. I don't measure success or happiness by the size of my bank roll but there is a certain minimum amount of money any person needs. Now he can go off and play and have fun but not in the NBA.
while vasquez has exceptional size for a PG, it strikes me as rather humorous to insinuate that he's going to be able to cover for fredette's defensive weaknesses. that's a pairing with no footspeed and little athleticism between the two of them. that's a keith smart pairing...

;)