Kings Faithful
Starter
I think defense will come with Spencers game. He has the ability to be a major shot blocker with his superb timing. If he started from day 1 his numbers would be significantly better.
Spencer Hawes
- Thread starter rainmaker
- Start date
sidney
Starter
Without a major all star a team needs a complimentary crew of big men. For example, our best years had crews like:
Webber, Divac, Clark, Pollard
and
Webber, Divac, Miller
Hawes is no all star but he can be a key guy in a crew. You just have to put the right guys around him. That's why I want Thabeet.
Thompson, Thabeet, Hawes is a very well rounded young and talented crew that could match up offensively and defensively with a lot of contending teams.
Webber, Divac, Clark, Pollard
and
Webber, Divac, Miller
Hawes is no all star but he can be a key guy in a crew. You just have to put the right guys around him. That's why I want Thabeet.
Thompson, Thabeet, Hawes is a very well rounded young and talented crew that could match up offensively and defensively with a lot of contending teams.
hammystyle
Starter
Offense is results oriented, either you are scoring or or you are not. Hawes is the least efficient scorer on the team when typically your big man should be your most efficient scorer. That stinks...I don't care how many post moves you have. He's young and should get better, but he needs to get a LOT better.
Perfect example. Because Biedrins finishes around the basket and earns free throws, he actually is a really solid and efficient scorer. He scores more 1.4 more ppg than Hawes on one fewer shot per game.
Showtime
Starter
I was at the hornet game, the same hornets who were without Chandler, and had an injured David West. Did the Kings attack Hilton Armstrong and Marks with Hawes on the block? No. Their entire offense is based on the high pick and roll, and posting Hawes isn't a PRIORITY in the offense, when it should be.
Look at Spencer's shot chart against those horrible hornet opponents: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=290331023
He took 13 shots, but as you can see, his shot chart shows that about half of those are in the post. When your center is taking just as many perimeter jumpers as shots in the post, that's an issue. Again, it's not so much his style, because we know he has the ability to score in the post (unlike Brad Miller), so we know he can be effective. It's that the offense isn't making him a priority in the post.
If the offense can do that, then he will be the center of the future. If not, then it won't matter what talent the team acquires as long as they neglect the post.
Look at Spencer's shot chart against those horrible hornet opponents: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=290331023
He took 13 shots, but as you can see, his shot chart shows that about half of those are in the post. When your center is taking just as many perimeter jumpers as shots in the post, that's an issue. Again, it's not so much his style, because we know he has the ability to score in the post (unlike Brad Miller), so we know he can be effective. It's that the offense isn't making him a priority in the post.
If the offense can do that, then he will be the center of the future. If not, then it won't matter what talent the team acquires as long as they neglect the post.
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rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Obviously, Spencer still needs to improve, and there is no reason to think he won't. The guy is only 20 yrs old, and extremely talented offensively. I can't think of a center with more all-around talent in the league under the age 23. As he matures as a player, and hopefully plays for a coach who knows what he is doing, he will have more of an impact on a game.
Natt doesn't know how to use him. In a real system run by a veteran coach, Spencers skillset will mean that much more. He is the type of player that could potentially control the flow of a game in a half-court setting down the road, like Vlade was able to. Of course, this all depends on his development, but the tools are there, and he continues to improve.
Natt doesn't know how to use him. In a real system run by a veteran coach, Spencers skillset will mean that much more. He is the type of player that could potentially control the flow of a game in a half-court setting down the road, like Vlade was able to. Of course, this all depends on his development, but the tools are there, and he continues to improve.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Quite true, and if you think that Hawes has peaked and won't get any better, then go ahead and trade him for Biedrins. Lets not forget that Hawes is only 20 years old and really hasn't even started for a full year. Biedrins has been in the league a while, and is certainly better today than when he first arrived. Having said that, he'll probably never lead his team in assists or outside shooting. Nothing wrong with that. I happen to like Biedrins. He is what he is.
It really depends on what kind of team your trying to build. If your trying to emulate the old Kings, then Biedrins is not a good fit. At least not as a starter. If your building something else, depending more on defense and rebounding, then he would certainly be a welcome addition.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I think that Spence would be a better defender in a different system. I personaly don't like the system the Kings are currently playing. I would prefer a man defense with weakside help. The current switching rotation system their playing right now, to often leaves Hawes or Thompson guarding the pt guard of the opposing team, with an obvious mismatch somewhere else on the floor.
Believe me, I understand the problem. When you have perimiter players that can't stay in front of their man it can reek havoc on the inside. The thing is, Martin and Beno can stay in front of thier man when they put in the effort. They simply won't commit to doing it game in and game out.
Maybe he thinks Biedrins is a better defensive player and values those skills more? Maybe you disagree, but you and a few others in this thread are misrepresenting what hammystyle was saying. Where exactly did he claim the three guys he would take over Hawes were superior offensively? The statement is he would take them over Hawes, period. You may not agree, but a debate based on what people are actually saying would be more fruitfull and satisfying for all involved.
That being said, let me play devil's advocate and compare numbers: I think most of us in this thread would agree that Lopez and Hawes do similiar things on offense, (Hawes propensity to shoot 3- pointers notwithstanding) but while Lopez makes just under 53% of his field goals and almost 80% of his free-throws, Hawes comes in at 46% from the field and 69% from the line. Brooke Lopez, despite the incredulity expressed by some in this thread, appears to me at least, both by numbers and eyeballs, to be a the better offensive player. A similiar argument could be made on behalf of Bogut, but I quite frankly don't care enough to make it.
I do think Hawes is a promising player, and I agreed to a large extent with bajaden's original post, but by no means has Hawes earned a sacred cow status. For example, if we did end up drafting Griffin, a defensive minded center might make more sense as a compliment than Hawes would: essentially my point is that our loyalty should be to the team to put out the best combination of players, rather than to certain individuals on said team. Hawes may be a part of the best combination of players, but we should keep an open mind.
Note: My original post evaporated a few hours ago
so I threw this together, so sorry for rambling and spelling. Actually I just reread this thread before posting, and if hammystyle was making the argument you claimed he was making then. . . My bad!
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Let us not mix apples and oranges. The post to which you had me responding to was made by AriesMar27. I believe if you read that post, he used the word offense and stinks. My response, thusly, was about the offensive capabilities of Biedrins and Hawes.
I believe that if you read my responses directly to Hammystyle, you'll see that I respond exactly to what he was posting.
Yeah, I kind of lumped you all in because I thought you were all trying to make the same point.
I may be badly misreading what you wrote,(and the thread in general) but how I take it is that you said: "You would trade Hawes for Biedrins because Hawes stinks on the offensive side of the ball. And this is of course because Biedrins is an offensive juggernaut"
He did not imply Hawes is a bad offensive player, so let's therefore get Biedrins, a good offensive player, but rather that Hawes offense is bad and when pressed to name players he preffered, picked three players whom he percieved as better. At least that's how I read it. I get why you made the inference you made, but I don't think the text justifies it. Or maybe it does
. Hammystyle, please settle this and put me out of my misery.
hammystyle
Starter
I can't trade him for Biedrins. Neither could the Kings, the Warriors would laugh that off. The Nets would be offended if we offered Hawes for Lopez straight up. "Hey, we've got a center who's the same age as yours, but he's been in the league a year longer, can't score nearly as well, can't rebound as well, and can't block shots as well. And he's way less physically developed and might have a knee problem. Can we trade?"...Maybe the Bucks would trade Bogut to rid themselves of the big contract he got, but take that out and I really doubt it.
I like stats. Hawes is not a statistically good offensive player nor is he a strong defender. He got a little better this year from last year, but statistically he's basically been the same guy just playing more minutes
Honestly its not that I don't like Hawes. I do see promise, and the fact that his body is weak right now means that he should he should get better just off maturation and hard work in the weight room. Really, it could make a huge difference. I hope it does, he definitely has potential. But its not liek he's right around the corner from being a great or even good player. He needs to get a LOT better.
kupman
Starter
IMHO, Hawes is as close as you get to "un-tradable" on this team. yes, I would rather trade Kmart at this point than Spencer. When you have a 7' guy that averages 15 and 7 in 1 month when he is only 20 years old, you really want to keep him around to see how it turns out. What other centers have put-up those kind of numbers when they were 20?
Yes, he needs improvement in areas, but come-on, if his play this year does not have you excited about his potential then I do not know what to say.
I think that perspective should also be noted. Had Hawes stayed in college he would be a junior right now and I would not doubt that he may have averaged 20-25 and 15 this year. That would make him the the top center prospect in this year's draft. I think that #1 would be between him and Griffin. As it turns out, we may have both on our team soon.
Yes, he needs improvement in areas, but come-on, if his play this year does not have you excited about his potential then I do not know what to say.
I think that perspective should also be noted. Had Hawes stayed in college he would be a junior right now and I would not doubt that he may have averaged 20-25 and 15 this year. That would make him the the top center prospect in this year's draft. I think that #1 would be between him and Griffin. As it turns out, we may have both on our team soon.
gunks
Hall of Famer
Gotta say I'm excited about Hawes. Center of the future most def (unless he bails on us for greener pastures).
He's still pretty inconsistant, but he's a 20 year old in his second year. So thats to be expected. Fact is, he has shown a lot of potential in just about every aspect of the game except maybe man defense. If he put effort into it the kid could be a legit rebounder (9-10 a game) and shot blocker. Put that with his offensive game and passing...We got ourselves a stat stuffing big.
He's still pretty inconsistant, but he's a 20 year old in his second year. So thats to be expected. Fact is, he has shown a lot of potential in just about every aspect of the game except maybe man defense. If he put effort into it the kid could be a legit rebounder (9-10 a game) and shot blocker. Put that with his offensive game and passing...We got ourselves a stat stuffing big.
I wasn't responding to you in particular. My statement about comparing players was meant as a general statement. It doesn't matter who's starting at center on the other 13 lottery teams. It doesn't really even matter who's starting at center for half the playoff teams. Look at the real contenders, that's your competition. KG/Perkins and Bynum/Gasol and Yao and Howard and Duncan. Dwight Howard is going to be a problem for everyone for a long time. So are Andrew Bynum and Greg Oden if they can ever stay healthy. The real question is whether Spencer Hawes can be a starting center on a contending team. Can he bang with the big boys. That's what we need to know before we give him 10-15 million per season.
If you want to compare young centers, there aren't a lot of 20 year olds starting on NBA teams right now so certainly we have an advantage there. And Hawes definitely has a lot of useful skills. I'm thinking 5 years in the future though because that's what the question was, is Hawes the center of the future. There will be a few stud centers coming into the draft over the next couple years. We might not know their names yet, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Other young players will get better over that time as well. So 5 years from now, is Hawes going to be a top 10 center in the league? We're only going to be able to pay one player to start at center. I'm not sure Hawes is the guy yet. Luckily we won't have to make that decision for 2 more years.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Yes Biedrins is efficient at what he is asked to do. Finish at the basket off pick and rolls and putbacks. Spencer is being asked to do a lot more on the offensive end, and has the potential to do a lot more than Biedrins.
I just don't see what makes you think he is the least efficient scorer on the team. The last month he is shooting 54% from the field, and is leading all starting centers in assists during that stretch. IMO, Beno is the least efficient scorer on the team, and JT is the worst at finishing plays inside.
Comparing the offensive talent of Hawes to Biedrens or Lopez is pointless IMO. Hawes has the potential to influence a game on the offensive end much more than either of those guys. Spencer is a guy that you might be able to run an offense through in a couple years. Biedrens will never get there. Lopez might.
And how many 20 yr olds come into the league and are the most efficient scorers on there teams? It takes time. Guys who score strictly off hustle and putbacks will always seem efficient on offense because they aren't asked to do as much on that end.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Yeah, I kind of lumped you all in because I thought you were all trying to make the same point.
I may be badly misreading what you wrote,(and the thread in general) but how I take it is that you said: "You would trade Hawes for Biedrins because Hawes stinks on the offensive side of the ball. And this is of course because Biedrins is an offensive juggernaut"
He did not imply Hawes is a bad offensive player, so let's therefore get Biedrins, a good offensive player, but rather that Hawes offense is bad and when pressed to name players he preffered, picked three players whom he percieved as better. At least that's how I read it. I get why you made the inference you made, but I don't think the text justifies it. Or maybe it does
Well, your getting closer. Actually I was responding to AriesMar27 who said he would trade Hawes, because Hawes sucked on offense. I therefore, with tounge in cheek, said that was probably because Biedrins was a offensive juggernaut. I thought it was obvious that I was being sarcastic. I'll put little laughing men in there next time....
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Look, I think you know my point of view and I know yours. Neither one of us is wrong, and in different ways, were saying almost the same thing. I was just trying to answer a simple question. The question was about the present, which in all honesty is really all we have to go on.
So, in truth, I could say that right now I think Hawes is the center of the future, but I may change my mind two years from now. Now how much more anyone wants to complicate that question, I'll leave to the rest of you.
hammystyle
Starter
Biedrins is much better at scoring around the basket on putbacks and p&r finishes than Hawes is at making jump shots and scoring off post moves. Those points count just the same you know.
I don't care what he's shooting in the last month. Over the whole season he's shooting 46%...and he never gets to the line. He's the least efficient scorer because he makes the scores the least amount of points per shot attempt. Its noot the end-all be-all measure but its pretty straight forward.
Lopez has a similar skill set to Hawes, is the same age, and is better in every regard. You can hope that Hawes gets better than Lopez, but there's no evidence at this point that he will be.
Biedrins was at 20. Lopez is, Oden is.
That's just part of being a good big man. Your percentages go up because you score on putbacks and get fouled down low a lot. Any ability to create offens as a big guy is pretty much negated if you can't do the fundamental big man things.
hammystyle
Starter
Yeah, I kind of lumped you all in because I thought you were all trying to make the same point.
I may be badly misreading what you wrote,(and the thread in general) but how I take it is that you said: "You would trade Hawes for Biedrins because Hawes stinks on the offensive side of the ball. And this is of course because Biedrins is an offensive juggernaut"
He did not imply Hawes is a bad offensive player, so let's therefore get Biedrins, a good offensive player, but rather that Hawes offense is bad and when pressed to name players he preffered, picked three players whom he percieved as better. At least that's how I read it. I get why you made the inference you made, but I don't think the text justifies it. Or maybe it does
There was this post
I just stated that I would trade Hawes for Biedrins, Bogut, or Lopez....and I meant that if I were a GM I would consider the entirety of their game and potential and think those guys are all going to be better centers for the next ten years. So you were right in reading what I meant, so thanks
Then in the spirit of the initial topic I went on to critique why I'm not sold on Hawes as the center of the future. With "His offense stinks" being the chief reason. I didn't change paragraphs so I can see how others might thing I was just making a comparison of all of them based on offense. Then in further replies I did pretty much compare their offensive outputs point blank, further blurring the line of the very first point I made.
With Hawes on offense, I wouldn't say that he stinks. But I would say he relies far too much on his jumpshot and that's why his shooting percentages and free throw attempts are on the low side for a big man. I think that's what hammystyle is hinting at. Biedrens in particular is very effecient because he only shoots the ball when he's within 5 feet of the basket. I don't know that Biedrens is a better offensive player overall, but at least he's not hurting you with his shooting percentage. If he does take a shot there's a pretty good chance it's going in. And if he misses he's in better position to get an offensive rebound.
A
AriesMar27
Guest
that was hammystyle that said that not me.... i said why would you trade hawes if he stinks on offense for payers who stunk on offense.... i like hawes...
IMHO, Hawes is as close as you get to "un-tradable" on this team. yes, I would rather trade Kmart at this point than Spencer. When you have a 7' guy that averages 15 and 7 in 1 month when he is only 20 years old, you really want to keep him around to see how it turns out. What other centers have put-up those kind of numbers when they were 20?
Yes, he needs improvement in areas, but come-on, if his play this year does not have you excited about his potential then I do not know what to say.
I think that perspective should also be noted. Had Hawes stayed in college he would be a junior right now and I would not doubt that he may have averaged 20-25 and 15 this year. That would make him the the top center prospect in this year's draft. I think that #1 would be between him and Griffin. As it turns out, we may have both on our team soon.
You know, kupman, you and I disagree a lot. In this instance, however, I think you've hit the nail on the head and I am totally in agreement, at least with the parts I bolded...
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Well I'm not -- Spencer wouldn't average 15rebs in a junior high school girl's league. 
As an aside, I think people are talking across each other here because they are working off of different standards. The essential difficulty is this -- what are the core functions of a big man? Rebound, block shots, score in the post. Why? Because they are the only ones big enough to do it. All great teams win in those areas. All great teams have guys who take care of business inside. So if that is the standard, the only standard, then Spencer is a failure. A weenie. He appears terrified of body contact. If that's it, and there is an argument it is, then he is not the man.
But if the definition is expanded, then you cannot deny his talent. He is extremely skilled for such a young player. He is more skilled than Lopez, or Biedrins, or I think even Bogut. And so you have the cross purposes -- if the skills count, if they are important, then he is a major guy for the future. If you are looking to just checkbox off those things that you need to get out of your bigs -- the boards the blocks, the tough interior play, then he is not. Both sides are right. And neither are. Ignoring his talent makes no sense -- he is already one of the more skilled centers in the league. On the other hand ignoring the problematic nature of yet another softy in the middle also makes no sense. I think he's the guy for the future, but all my future plans building around him (and Kevin, quite the softy duo) involve surrounding them with guys who actually have hair on their chest.
As an aside, I think people are talking across each other here because they are working off of different standards. The essential difficulty is this -- what are the core functions of a big man? Rebound, block shots, score in the post. Why? Because they are the only ones big enough to do it. All great teams win in those areas. All great teams have guys who take care of business inside. So if that is the standard, the only standard, then Spencer is a failure. A weenie. He appears terrified of body contact. If that's it, and there is an argument it is, then he is not the man.
But if the definition is expanded, then you cannot deny his talent. He is extremely skilled for such a young player. He is more skilled than Lopez, or Biedrins, or I think even Bogut. And so you have the cross purposes -- if the skills count, if they are important, then he is a major guy for the future. If you are looking to just checkbox off those things that you need to get out of your bigs -- the boards the blocks, the tough interior play, then he is not. Both sides are right. And neither are. Ignoring his talent makes no sense -- he is already one of the more skilled centers in the league. On the other hand ignoring the problematic nature of yet another softy in the middle also makes no sense. I think he's the guy for the future, but all my future plans building around him (and Kevin, quite the softy duo) involve surrounding them with guys who actually have hair on their chest.
HighTopKicks
Bench
Well I'm not -- Spencer wouldn't average 15rebs in a junior high school girl's league.
As an aside, I think people are talking across each other here because they are working off of different standards. The essential difficulty is this -- what are the core functions of a big man? Rebound, block shots, score in the post. Why? Because they are the only ones big enough to do it. All great teams win in those areas. All great teams have guys who take care of business inside. So if that is the standard, the only standard, then Spencer is a failure. A weenie. He appears terrified of body contact. If that's it, and there is an argument it is, then he is not the man.
But if the definition is expanded, then you cannot deny his talent. He is extremely skilled for such a young player. He is more skilled than Lopez, or Biedrins, or I think even Bogut. And so you have the cross purposes -- if the skills count, if they are important, then he is a major guy for the future. If you are looking to just checkbox off those things that you need to get out of your bigs -- the boards the blocks, the tough interior play, then he is not. Both sides are right. And neither are. Ignoring his talent makes no sense -- he is already one of the more skilled centers in the league. On the other hand ignoring the problematic nature of yet another softy in the middle also makes no sense. I think he's the guy for the future, but all my future plans building around him (and Kevin, quite the softy duo) involve surrounding them with guys who actually have hair on their chest.
For the most part I agree, although I don't believe Spencer is soft. Inexperienced and lacking in strength yes, but he doesn't shy away from power guys in the paint. He only averaged 12mpg in a partial season last year. He's only been a regular starter at Center since the trade deadline. And, he's being used as a passing center from the high post, by his coach, and not by preference. Anyone, who's seen him race to the blocks on every offensive possession only to be ignored by our guards, knows that he's willing to mix it up on offense.
Given a passing PG and a coach that doesn't run a high post offense, and Spencers numbers would've been even better this year. And, I expect we'll see better and more dominate moves down low from Spencer next year.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I do think one of Spencer's weaknesses is how soft he is on defense. I am not overly concerned about it because he has shown improvement in that area over the 2nd half of the season. But yes, he does have a ways to go in that area, and I think getting in the weight room will help this summer.
TheWileyVet
Starter
Hawes is really starting to blossum. I'm really looking forward to seeing what he can do next year. Hawes will be a solid piece of our franchise.
Kings Faithful
Starter
Biedrins may have been the most efficient scorer on his team when he was 20 but he also only put up 4 ppg and 4 rpg that season, his sophomore season. Hawes is putting up 11 and 7, which is rising, in his sophmore season. People are just giving up on our big men way to fast. Right now nagging on our future Kings becuase they aren't all-stars isn't going to help them get to that level. If we can find ourselves a pure PG the efficiancy of our big men will go up dramatically and we will really see their true potential (See Devin Harris and Brook Lopez). We should work on that before judging them for not being stars on the worst team in the league.
hammystyle
Starter
Biedrins' age 20 season he averaged 9.5 ppg on 60% shooting with 9.3 rpg and 1.7 bpg on a playoff team. Since they're both April birtdays, he was almost exactly the same age as Hawes is now.
Anyways, as one of the biggest naysayers in this thread, I haven't given up on him. I'm just trying to point out that he's not very good right now, and he has a long way to go to be a cornerstone of a contending team. That's been my main argument, it seem like some think he's really close to being that guy and is a lock to get there, I think he's much further and have doubts.
kf4l
G-League
While Biedrins may be better than Spencer Hawes right now, don't forget that Biedrins has his flaws too. His rebounding stats don't mean jack because he's been pratically the only big guy the Warriors have had in the starting lineup the past couple of seasons. His defense is only average. He needs to learn how to occasionaly step out and hit jumpshots. His freethrow shooting is god awful. He's pretty much a role player with limited offense.
Spencer has all the tools to becoming a allstar and if you asked me I would take Spencer over Biedrins allday, everyday.
Spencer has all the tools to becoming a allstar and if you asked me I would take Spencer over Biedrins allday, everyday.
hammystyle
Starter
Biedrins rebounding stats don't mean jack because he's on the Warriors? The Kings are dead last in rebounding this year. So its not like Hawes is getting beaten to the boards by his teammates. They're all getting beaten by the other team. (Though in fairness its hard to get a rebound when the opposing team is simply making the shot every time.)
Of course Biedrins has flaws, who said he didn't? But despite his very limited range and FT% he's still really good already. He just turned 23 yesterday and is averaging 12ppg 11.5rpg and 1.5bpg on 57% shooting in only 30mpg. If they let play him 36 minutes a game he could be an all-star next year...that's not a "limited role player".
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