So lets see, our roster now is......

[Sptsjunkie]

Nobody is suggesting we take Brad out into a field and shoot him as our means of getting rid of him.

Now KT on the other hand.........

 

[CruzDude]

We've kinda digressed a bit what with 48 ft HD TV's and all.

I added on the original thread on page-1 an interesting item from the NBA about how rosters are set under the new CBA: 12 active and 1 inactive is minimum and 3 inactive maximum.

GP tends to carry 14 with SAR and KT being the 2 inactive leaving a roster of only 12 active players. As indicated Kings have 15 contracts now with SAR & KT. So any more trades that are 1 for 2 don't make sense. That said, I don't think Brad is going anywhere unless it is 1 for 1 with draft choices but at $12M that is hard to imagine.

Even if SAR retires and they have to keep KT, I don't see adding any more contracts being right at the Luxury tax threshold as it is. So again i contend GP may be done dealing unless something too good to pass up comes along (and don't see that either).

Well, the 14th passed and RonRon successfully (for the Kings) went on his way to the Rockets along with Ewing and Singletary, Greene and BJax came in along with a first rounder and a $1M taking the Kings to a 13 man roster plus KT & SAR. My guess is the Kings are done trading and will stand pat with this bunch until at least training camp. Then if any "diamonds-in-the-rough" show up during camp we could see a minor trade of bench types. But all-in-all I think GP is done for now. So the TDOS has 6 agonizing weeks left...........

 

[One and Done]

Even though the lineup's pretty much set, a few things are remaining to be seen in this trough of TDOS and the following preseason: specifically the status of Shareef and the rotation for the first 5 games.

As for the first 5, the rotation depends on preseason performance. If Spencer continues to shoot a low % and exhibit the defensive "prowess" he exhibited in the summer league, it's possible he might come off the bench while Brad's out. So nothing's set in stone until training camp & preseason, which should be interesting to watch.

Realistically, this team's going to start off playing the vets, but come January, the kids should see ample time (however, Greene will likely see Dahntay-level minutes). At the start of the season, I think Shelden will be the first option PF off the bench, and will have until January to prove himself, or else, he'll be on the block or getting cozy with Kenny. JT, like any rookie, is going to have to work for his minutes...Spencer will have to continue to improve and show some defense...I think Douby's done, but he'll have a few chances...B-Jax will be the primary backup, with Brown seeing garbagetime.

Likely rotation, first two months:

Beno/Jackson/Brown
Martin/Garcia/Douby
Salmons/Garcia/Greene
Moore/Williams/Thompson/SAR/Cancer
Miller/Hawes

I'm predicting a median of 28 wins this season, and after it's clear to everybody (from the Maloofs on down) that we're not contenders, the youth will have ample time to play and develop. All I hope is the team continues to go out there and play hard, be unselfish, and surprise me once in a while.

 

[bajaden]

We've kinda digressed a bit what with 48 ft HD TV's and all.

I added on the original thread on page-1 an interesting item from the NBA about how rosters are set under the new CBA: 12 active and 1 inactive is minimum and 3 inactive maximum.

GP tends to carry 14 with SAR and KT being the 2 inactive leaving a roster of only 12 active players. As indicated Kings have 15 contracts now with SAR & KT. So any more trades that are 1 for 2 don't make sense. That said, I don't think Brad is going anywhere unless it is 1 for 1 with draft choices but at $12M that is hard to imagine.

Even if SAR retires and they have to keep KT, I don't see adding any more contracts being right at the Luxury tax threshold as it is. So again i contend GP may be done dealing unless something too good to pass up comes along (and don't see that either).

I'm probably late to the table with this one, but I believe that if a player retires because of medical reasons, he is still paid what is due to him, but his salary doesn't count against the cap. I haven't looked it up, but if someone knows for sure, I would appreciate the info.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

I'm going to make a bold prediction here ..

Shelden Williams will be the starting PF for at least half of the year ( first half .. )

I believe he will start while miller is out and Moore at Center, when miller comes back shelden will have played better than moore for those five games and keep the PF spot while miller moves into starting center sending Mikki to the bench.

Its crunch time for shelden williams, He played very solid in the summer league .. I think he was our best rebounder and averaged a double double. His game compliments miller and hawes the best out of our bigs , he's the only real banger i see on this team.
We need to see what he's got and he's not a rookie anymore .. he's almost reached vet status so him starting over mikki wouldnt be that big of a deal .. in other words he's been around enough to get his shot ..

 

[NME]

I'm going to make a bold prediction here ..

Shelden Williams will be the starting PF for at least half of the year ( first half .. )

Yikes, what a depressing and fruitless proposition. JT already looked better than him in the summer league, and that's his first experience against that competition versus Shelden's third time around. JT was stationed much of his time out of position on the wing and away from many of the gimme rebounds, alllowing Shelden to spend all his time in the post, and their production still came out even. As far as the skills and tools JT showed versus Shelden, there's no contest. If they're close in production at the moment, JT is going to blow past him in no time with a little experience.

 

[bajaden]

Yikes, what a depressing and fruitless proposition. JT already looked better than him in the summer league, and that's his first experience against that competition versus Shelden's third time around. JT was stationed much of his time out of position on the wing and away from many of the gimme rebounds, alllowing Shelden to spend all his time in the post, and their production still came out even. As far as the skills and tools JT showed versus Shelden, there's no contest. If they're close in production at the moment, JT is going to blow past him in no time with a little experience.

Yeah, I totally agree. I think they have already made up thier minds about Sheldon as a starter. I think the question now is, is he worth keeping as a backup PF. I think the short term answer is yes, and will probably remain yes, until he proves otherwise, or the position is upgraded.

 

[Telemachus]

I'm going to make a bold prediction here ..

Shelden Williams will be the starting PF for at least half of the year ( first half .. )

I believe he will start while miller is out and Moore at Center, when miller comes back shelden will have played better than moore for those five games and keep the PF spot while miller moves into starting center sending Mikki to the bench.

Its crunch time for shelden williams, He played very solid in the summer league .. I think he was our best rebounder and averaged a double double. His game compliments miller and hawes the best out of our bigs , he's the only real banger i see on this team.
We need to see what he's got and he's not a rookie anymore .. he's almost reached vet status so him starting over mikki wouldnt be that big of a deal .. in other words he's been around enough to get his shot ..

I think that Williams has proven that he can be nothing more than possibly a good PF/C off the bench. I am hoping he can be that guy off the bench that comes in for a few rebounds, and 6 fouls (the kind that count).

I thought that Thompson showed in the Summer League that he was already a more skilled player and just needs experience. If his learning curve is high, he should blow right past Williams during training camp. And hopefully Moore sometime during the season.

 

[chrisnu]

I'm probably late to the table with this one, but I believe that if a player retires because of medical reasons, he is still paid what is due to him, but his salary doesn't count against the cap. I haven't looked it up, but if someone knows for sure, I would appreciate the info.

That's partially correct. A similar thing happened with Darius Miles. The Blazers had a doctor appointed by the NBA and the Players' Association determine that Miles had a career-ending injury. Thus, the Blazers have to pay him, but his salary won't count toward their team salary. However, Miles hasn't officially retired, and Miles plays at least 10 games any time over the next two seasons, his salary goes back onto the teams' books. If SAR were to simply retire due to injury, I believe that he would continue to count toward the team salary if the Kings did not go through this process.

 

[bajaden]

That's partially correct. A similar thing happened with Darius Miles. The Blazers had a doctor appointed by the NBA and the Players' Association determine that Miles had a career-ending injury. Thus, the Blazers have to pay him, but his salary won't count toward their team salary. However, Miles hasn't officially retired, and Miles plays at least 10 games any time over the next two seasons, his salary goes back onto the teams' books. If SAR were to simply retire due to injury, I believe that he would continue to count toward the team salary if the Kings did not go through this process.

Yeah, thats correct. The Kings would have to apply for a career ending injury release. Then I think its just a matter of league doctors confirming that he's unable to play because of the injury and, wa la, he won't count against the cap. I would think that there's a better than even chance that he retires because of the injury.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

I think that Williams has proven that he can be nothing more than possibly a good PF/C off the bench. I am hoping he can be that guy off the bench that comes in for a few rebounds, and 6 fouls (the kind that count).

I thought that Thompson showed in the Summer League that he was already a more skilled player and just needs experience. If his learning curve is high, he should blow right past Williams during training camp. And hopefully Moore sometime during the season.

And Douby looked incredible in the summer league too ..

My point wasnt that Williams is better than JT, I think JT will be the better player down the road and could easily be the better player now but a coach tends to lean towards giving the minutes to the player whos been in the nba the longer amount of time ( theus deffinetly doesnt like playing his young guys .. ) My point was that shelden will start because ..

A) He's better than Mikki .. ( who isnt .. )
B) He's been in the league longer than JT ( paid his dues on the bench .. )
C) We need to see what he's made of
C.2) His style of play looks to fit better with miller and hawes at the moment

 

[Entity]

And Douby looked incredible in the summer league too ..

My point wasnt that Williams is better than JT, I think JT will be the better player down the road and could easily be the better player now but a coach tends to lean towards giving the minutes to the player whos been in the nba the longer amount of time ( theus deffinetly doesnt like playing his young guys .. ) My point was that shelden will start because ..

A) He's better than Mikki .. ( who isnt .. )
B) He's been in the league longer than JT ( paid his dues on the bench .. )
C) We need to see what he's made of
C.2) His style of play looks to fit better with miller and hawes at the moment

Exactly what is his style play? He can rebound and get garbage put backs? He has lmited mobility in the post and lacks any kind of consistency from 12-15 feet.

Jason Thompson is quicker more mobile mover versatile rebounds better and has a more solid post and perimeter game and is a better passer and runs the floor as good as many SF's in the league. yeah now that I typed it all out I can see how Jason Thompson would be a nightmare to play with. Who needs guys like that we should trade him to Philly for some moveable pieaces.

 

[SacKings7]

Yeah, thats correct. The Kings would have to apply for a career ending injury release. Then I think its just a matter of league doctors confirming that he's unable to play because of the injury and, wa la, he won't count against the cap. I would think that there's a better than even chance that he retires because of the injury.

I don't think it matters to the Maloofs if his salary counts against the cap or not. They still have to pay him, and I doubt they want to spend any extra money at this point, at least not until that contract runs out.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

yeah now that I typed it all out I can see how Jason Thompson would be a nightmare to play with. Who needs guys like that we should trade him to Philly for some moveable pieaces.

When did I make a statement even close to that ? .. oh yea, never.

Williams is a banger, he's our only big man that plays like he wants to be the paint .. the only one besides Moore (do we even count SAR and K9 anymore?) that doesnt shoot 3's .. he is arguably the best rebounder on the team and gets very good position even though he is undersized .. not to mention he is a better defensive player than any of our other options at PF because of his strength and his "garbage" putbacks means offensive rebounds which is obviously something the kings are awful at.

Obviously your a BIG JT fan, who isnt .. he looked very good in the summer league and he had very good stats at rider and for the millionth time im not on here saying Williams is a better all around player than JT or ever will be, Im saying MY opinion is that he will start the first half of the year ( need I post my reasons why again? )WE NEED TO SEE WHAT HE CAN DO, and if he plays bad then we dont resign him and possibly add him as a filler to a trade .. If he plays well we either keep him around or actually get something for him .. now when you respond to this please stop suggesting I want to trade JT or all that other BS, that wasnt and isnt my point ..

 

[PurpleHaze]

Coach Theus is NOT biased in favor of veterans over "qualified" younger players or even dynamic rookies. He has said so many times that playing time and starting slots are not reserved for ANYONE - but based solely on who puts forth hardest effort in games and practice and who is playing best at any given time.

And Reggie Theus should know. When he was a Chicago Bull early in his NBA career newly hired Bulls coach Kevin Loughery inexplicably benched him even though Theus had been NBA runner up rookie of the year (1979), and was named an All Star (1981, 1983). "Rush Street Reggie" was soon shipped out of Chicago to Kansas City after apparently getting into Loughery's dog house.

Later, after being traded by the Sacramento Kings to the Atlanta Hawks, Reggie was reined in even more by coach Mike Fratello who cut his minutes and suffocated his open court creativity, resulting in probably his worst season as a pro. He then ended up in Orlando and New Jersey where he once again flourished in their up tempo systems.

Hey Reg, don't forget my little note to you below

 

[fnordius]

I don't think it matters to the Maloofs if his salary counts against the cap or not. They still have to pay him, and I doubt they want to spend any extra money at this point, at least not until that contract runs out.

But even if they didn't care about the cap space, we're at 15 players, and Geoff seems most comfortable with 14. Or, to look at it another way, we keep burning guys like Dahntay Jones, Justin Williams and Sean Singletary because we're keeping some oldsters who can no longer play. Keeping him is the equivalent of losing our second round pick every year. And since it costs us nothing to unload him, why not?

 

[Warhawk]

I don't think it matters to the Maloofs if his salary counts against the cap or not. They still have to pay him, and I doubt they want to spend any extra money at this point, at least not until that contract runs out.

Now wait - if he retires for an injury, doesn't insurance pay most/all of the salary?

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#53

There is one exception whereby a player can continue to receive his salary, but the salary is not included in the team's team salary. This is when a player is forced to retire for medical reasons and a league-appointed physician confirms that he is medically unfit to continue playing. There is a waiting period of one year following the injury or illness before a team can apply for this salary cap relief. If the waiting period expires mid-season (on any date prior to the last day of the regular season), then the player's entire salary for that season is removed from the team's team salary.

If a player retires, even for medical reasons, his team does not receive a salary cap exception to acquire a replacement player.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/18/sports/basketball/18notebook.html

Houston retired for medical reasons - a chronic knee injury - so the N.B.A.'s insurance carrier will pay 80 percent of his remaining salary, or $32 million over the next two seasons. The Knicks will pay the other $8 million.

 

[Telemachus]

My point wasnt that Williams is better than JT, I think JT will be the better player down the road and could easily be the better player now but a coach tends to lean towards giving the minutes to the player whos been in the nba the longer amount of time ( theus deffinetly doesnt like playing his young guys .. ) My point was that shelden will start because ..

A) He's better than Mikki .. ( who isnt .. )
B) He's been in the league longer than JT ( paid his dues on the bench .. )
C) We need to see what he's made of
C.2) His style of play looks to fit better with miller and hawes at the moment

First, he wasn't better than Mikki last season (nothing has changed IMO).
Secondly, I think that being in the league longer only helps a player if they have proven something during that time. Williams has proven nothing.
Thirdly, I think we already know what he is made of (and it isn't starter material).
And lastly, I don't see how his style fits better with Miller and Hawes. JT can work well with either because of his skill set and abilty to play in the high post as well as the low post. Williams can only play down low, and is a banger with limited overall skills. He has no handles, and is average at best as a passer. That leaves rebounding, banging, and anything right under the basket.

 

[CruzDude]

Following the SAR>retire>injury thread, was not SAR injured all of last year thereby making the 1-year waiting period for cap relief now upon the Kings? Or is SAR going to attempt a comeback and ruin it all?

Therefore if his injury is not deemed career ending and he attempts a comeback and fails, he joins KT as varnish at the end of the bench for the year and they are permanently the 2 "inactive" players. Then if someone actually does get injured, KT becomes active to open an "inactive" spot.

I think the Maloofs have to face up to the music and make a major decision on both KT and SAR so the team can move on and not have those albatross like anchors around their plans.

 

[CruzDude]

As to roster and starters for the first 5 games, it will depend on training camp as to who steps up. Mass..KingsFan (who wants to try to spell that state before coffee?) may be closest to what could happen: Shelden starting at PF. But I think Hawes will start at the 5 for those games with Mikki on the bench. Five games may be enough to see what Shelden can do as the first 4 games are on the road.

As to Jason, well he is a rookie and he will need some time. I think after Miller gets back we start to see him and Mikki splitting time with Shelden until the reality sorts itself out. What ever anyone did in summer league is only an incentive, not a shoe in for anything. Shelden has the shortest leash of all the bigs right now. But 5 bigs (Miller, Moore, Hawes, Thompson and Williams) is quite acceptable its just who will get the minutes? We should know that answer right after Thanksgiving Dinner.

 

[bajaden]

I don't think it matters to the Maloofs if his salary counts against the cap or not. They still have to pay him, and I doubt they want to spend any extra money at this point, at least not until that contract runs out.

As pointed out in other posts, in all likelyhood, insurance will cover most of the salary. But thats not really the point. We just included Singletery in a trade to keep from going a couple of bucks over the luxury tax threshold. If it turns out that SAR does retire for injury reasons, all of a sudden were
6 million under the luxury cap.

I'm not saying to run out an spend the money, but it does give the team some flexablity in case of injury to another player, or, gives them the room to resign Singletery, if they desire to do so. Its a long season, and having a little wiggle room is a bonus.

 

[Berriartua]

1.Beno/Jackson/Brown 2.Martin/Salmons/Douby 3.Cisco/Salmons/Greene 4.Moore/Thompson/SAR/Williams/KT 5.Miller/Hawes/Thompson

 

[Kingster]

I'm going to make a bold prediction here ..

Shelden Williams will be the starting PF for at least half of the year ( first half .. )

I believe he will start while miller is out and Moore at Center, when miller comes back shelden will have played better than moore for those five games and keep the PF spot while miller moves into starting center sending Mikki to the bench.

Its crunch time for shelden williams, He played very solid in the summer league .. I think he was our best rebounder and averaged a double double. His game compliments miller and hawes the best out of our bigs , he's the only real banger i see on this team.
We need to see what he's got and he's not a rookie anymore .. he's almost reached vet status so him starting over mikki wouldnt be that big of a deal .. in other words he's been around enough to get his shot ..

If JT doesn't get more minutes than Shelden, we're in deeeep trouble...

 

[CruzDude]

1.Beno/Jackson/Brown 2.Martin/Cisco/Douby 3.Salmons/Cisco/Greene 4.Moore/Thompson/Williams/SAR/KT 5.Miller/Hawes/Thompson

I almost agree. I made some minor changes, shown in bold, to your list. Hey! it is TDOS.........!! But wouldn't it be nice as BAJADEN says, to have SAR retire, bank the $6M under the cap and see where the "kids" can take us?

 

[Vlade4GM]

Moving Miller could be too much a change and result in 2 more years to get where we are at the moment. Brad has trade value but can't see moving him until we know Hawes is ready to move in to start and that may or may not be by trade deadline. If BJax can spark off the bench and push Douby and Garcia to the next level, then great.

Otherwise Kings stand pat and with this bunch see if they can get to second round then make life tough for someone and if they mesh then 09-10 can deja vu 2000, 2001 all over again.

Which is what?

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

If JT doesn't get more minutes than Shelden, we're in deeeep trouble...

How can anything we do next year make us " In deep trouble " ..

I think the kings will find themselves in the most trouble if they dont see what they have with there oldest of the youngins (Williams, Douby )

Sorry that im not completely ready to right them off .. I havent seen either of them play nearly enough to do that and when I do see them play they play pretty good, at least compared to the starter ( in williams case, sorry but mikki moore is terrible, worst hands I can remember .. )

I know everyone says that you earn your playing time in practice, I believe that to be true in most cases but look at our roster ..

Were is douby going to play behind martin and Garcia?

were is williams going to play joining our team mid season behind OUR young big hawes, vet miller, vet moore ..

I really hope theus 'gets his act together' and realizes he is here for a rebuild, dont play moore or miller 35-40 minutes and now that ron is gone it should actually help douby get a little more time..

Im not claiming these guys are superstars or are going to be superstars but Im just not ready to claim them anything, we havent seen them enough and until they are off this team I'll keep hopeing they get some kind of a chance to prove themselves...

 

[CruzDude]

Which is what?

The Kings have shown some success under Theus and are now adding at least 3 more rookies: Greene, Thompson and Brown. Miller is the centerpiece of experience for the Kings and a good Big in the middle, not a very good defender but much better than average on the offensive end.

My point was, we trade Brad now and the Kings spend 2 more years getting back to this point, and with what would be a really, really young team with no proven leader, delaying progress maybe that long. Hawes is just not ready to assume the 5 spot full time with a raw rookie or Mikki as backup.

Assuming Salmons, an excellent defender, is at the 3 and someone can step into the 4/PF spot to defend better than Mikki has, then having Brad at the 5 continues the Kings progress with Hawes getting more and more time at the 5 as he earns them, but maybe not this year. Too many experienced bigs in the middle in the west.

 

[NME]

My point was, we trade Brad now and the Kings spend 2 more years getting back to this point, and with what would be a really, really young team with no proven leader, delaying progress maybe that long. Hawes is just not ready to assume the 5 spot full time with a raw rookie or Mikki as backup.

But even if we only get back to the same point, we do it with a center who is then 22 years old instead of 34. That's the whole point of rebuilding rather than trying to hold the line of sub-mediocrity.

 

[Telemachus]

Sorry that im not completely ready to right them off .. I havent seen either of them play nearly enough to do that and when I do see them play they play pretty good, at least compared to the starter ( in williams case, sorry but mikki moore is terrible, worst hands I can remember .. )

Either you have forgotten or never saw Duane Causwell. He had the worst hands I have ever seen, and there isn't even a close second.

I agree that Moore's hands aren't great, but Williams has shown the same type of hands when he has been in the game. Even in VSL he had pass go through his hands, or didn't catch it cleanly (taking away the advantage).

 

[CruzDude]

But even if we only get back to the same point, we do it with a center who is then 22 years old instead of 34. That's the whole point of rebuilding rather than trying to hold the line of sub-mediocrity.

With Brad on the team this year the rebuilding progresses up with Hawes getting the experience he needs working with a Brad. No way Hawes can hold his own this year in the west with no Brad. Maybe he and Brad start to split minutes then even if Hawes gets bigger minutes, he has Brad as a mentor.

The center and the PG are the critical positions on the Kings team. Even if that wants to change, Hawes needs the 10+ year smarts Brad brings for most of this year.