So lets see, our roster now is......

[CruzDude]

5 Brad - Hawes

4 Mikki - Thompson, Williams (KT, SAR?)

3 Salmons - Garcia, Green

2 Kevin - BJax, Douby

1 Beno - Brown

So that's only 13 (technically 15 with KT and SAR) and teams have to keep minimum of 13. If BJax fills the shooter-scorer at the 2-3 spot until Douby and/or Garcia get to next level. Green is just that (green) but good off bench for a bit. Hopefully SAR Retires and his $$ come off the books. Maybe a good defender-rebounder like Amundson who has 2 part years in the league now. Don't see Justin Williams on Kings radar, too bad he reminded me a little bit of "Yogi" Stewart. Would not be surprised to see Singletary in Kings training camp as a 3rd PG is necessary insurance.

So maybe GP is done for awhile, eh? and some bubble types get to training camp. Oh well, only a momentary blip in TDOS for RonRon going away.
************************************************************************
NOTE: I didn't really understand the concept of team rosters under the new CBA until I read this on an NBA site dated October 2005!! Thought everyone would like to know as it influences how the Kings will set up their roster as to number of players:

Understanding how rosters are set under the new CBA
Under the new Collective Bargaining Agreement, each team is required to carry 12 players on its active list and at least one player on its inactive list. Teams may have a maximum of three players on its inactive list, which includes any players sent to the NBA Development League.

In the past, a team maintained a 12-player roster, with additional players being put on the injured list, which forced the player to sit a minimum of five games before again being eligible to play. Now, the active and inactive list can be set on a game-by-game basis, one hour before tip-off, with no length of stay required for either list.

If, for example, a star player is injured and forced to sit out one or two games, the coach can now place him on the inactive list and "activate" another player, giving the team a full 12 players available to play. In previous seasons, that player would have had to stay on the injured list five games, so instead the team would frequently just sit the player and make do with the other 11 available players.

 

[kingsfan101]

5 Brad - Hawes

4 Mikki - Thompson, Williams (KT, SAR?)

3 Salmons - Garcia, Green

2 Kevin - Douby

1 Beno - Brown

So that's only 12 (technically 14 with KT and SAR) and teams need minimum of 13. We're missing a shooter-scorer at the 2-3 spot tho' Douby is supposed to be that as is Garcia. Green is just that (green). Hopefully SAR Retires and his $$ come off the books. Maybe a good defender-rebounder like Amundson who has 2 part years in the league now. Don't see Justin Williams on Kings radar, too bad he reminded me a little bit of "Yogi" Stewart. Would not be surprised to see Singletary in Kings training camp as a 3rd PG is necessary insurance.

So maybe GP is done for awhile, eh? and some bubble types get to training camp. Oh well, only a momentary blip in TDOS for RonRon going away.

What about Bobby?

 

[GeraldWallace#3]

Ahh....man..........your gonna hate me for this but...............

Spoiler

It's Greene not Green

 

[sacgirl88]

What about Bobby?

yay i was wondering the same thing

 

[jthompson1]

i think miller should be moved, clearly we hav begun the rebuilding stage, has anyone heard anything more about the deal to the bulls or even a new deal?

 

[CruzDude]

Moving Miller could be too much a change and result in 2 more years to get where we are at the moment. Brad has trade value but can't see moving him until we know Hawes is ready to move in to start and that may or may not be by trade deadline. If BJax can spark off the bench and push Douby and Garcia to the next level, then great.

Otherwise Kings stand pat and with this bunch see if they can get to second round then make life tough for someone and if they mesh then 09-10 can deja vu 2000, 2001 all over again.

 

[Kings Faithful]

Moving Miller could be too much a change and result in 2 more years to get where we are at the moment.

I dont see how....if anything it just gives Hawes and Thompson more time and gets them ready faster. By keeping Miller we just lose his value, I say we just trade him while he's hot and get another young player and a pick for him.

 

[CruzDude]

With nothing but young players and no leadership they flop down to bottom for a year or so. With Brad in there they have a known commodity who plays the high post very well and can shot/score from anywhere on the floor. Hawes is just not ready yet to step into the 5 and you sure don't want Mikki out there as the Vet leader do you? Jason is a rookie, Green is a rookie, Brown has one year, Hawes has one year, arrgghhhhh. Patience my good man, patience.

Having 3 or 4 rookies/second year guys getting major minutes sounds good but could be a disaster team wise and have the Kings slide down to Grizzlie level. I like how they are going now so lets keep the team a "retooling" and not a total rebuild and the 2-3 years of agony that goes with that approach.

 

[TheRaven]

With nothing but young players and no leadership they flop down to bottom for a year or so.

This gets back to the "retooling on the fly" vs. "let's just rebuild asap" argument yet again. I respect that point of view, but some of us would rather get what we can for Brad while he has value, and if we flop for a year or two, so be it. All it does is nab us a higher pick in the draft, like perhaps a top young PG.

 

[KingsCitizen]

My gut feeling tells me that the inclusion of Greene on the Artest trade may affect Geoff's current interest on Nocioni/Noah for Miller. Nocioni plays 3 or a small 4, which is the same as Greene's game minus the scrappy defense maybe. Keeping Miller can add a bit of leadership stability rather than having a spoiled Noah. Plus keeping Brad(12.2M) for 2 more season along with KT(8.5M) stills makes us a good market player for 2010.

Moore's contract, I believe, is only guaranteed by this season. Since year 3 was supposed to be team option. He'll they can just buy him out this season. And with Reef's possible retirement, the PF jam will loosen up at the same time caps space will ease a bit with Moore and Reef's salary (12M) getting off the books. We can possibly sign a good bench guy and extend Garcia with that.

So I don't think we need to hurry up shipping Miller. I'll still be ok if he completes his contract. Next year, he will even be a shinier commodity as expiring on the trade market.

Hawes/Miller/Moore*
Thompson/Williams/Reef*/Thomas*
Garcia/Greene/Salmons
Martin/Douby/
Beno/Jackson/Brown

*Possible buy out/retirement this season.

That line-up is still pretty good with minimal attitude concern and will only get better in a year or 2. With the Rockets 09 first round and big salaries off the books by 2010, why should we hurry shipping out Miller?

 

[stevetaebo]

Ahh....man..........your gonna hate me for this but...............

Spoiler

It's Greene not Green

It's not Ryan, its Ryne

 

[bajaden]

It's not Ryan, its Ryne

Did you run our of spoilers?

 

[bajaden]

With nothing but young players and no leadership they flop down to bottom for a year or so. With Brad in there they have a known commodity who plays the high post very well and can shot/score from anywhere on the floor. Hawes is just not ready yet to step into the 5 and you sure don't want Mikki out there as the Vet leader do you? Jason is a rookie, Green is a rookie, Brown has one year, Hawes has one year, arrgghhhhh. Patience my good man, patience.

Having 3 or 4 rookies/second year guys getting major minutes sounds good but could be a disaster team wise and have the Kings slide down to Grizzlie level. I like how they are going now so lets keep the team a "retooling" and not a total rebuild and the 2-3 years of agony that goes with that approach.

I have mixed feelings on Miller. I don't necessarily think keeping him means that were retooling instead of rebuilding. Thats just semantics anyway. The question is, when looking at what it appears the team is going to be, what is the best avenue to take. I agree that throwing too many young players into the fire will probably add up to a disastor. My greatest fear would be that they're confidence gets damaged. Losing can become a mental thing. You go out and expect to lose, and you will.

I would say, that unless you get an offer that is just too good to pass up for Miller, you keep him for at least this year. If he has a decent to good year, he's even more tradable next off season. He's a pretty good center and he's also in the last year of his contract. Thats a good combination for a trade with a good return.

Now if Chicago wants to offer us Deng, Gordon, and Rose for Miller. We'll then I'll take my lumps, thank you.

 

[fnordius]

5 Brad - Hawes

4 Mikki - Thompson, Williams (KT, SAR?)

3 Salmons - Garcia, Green

2 Kevin - BJAx, Douby

1 Beno - Brown

So that's only 13 (technically 15 with KT and SAR) and teams have to keep minimum of 13. If BJax fills the shooter-scorer at the 2-3 spot until Douby and/or Garcia get to next level. Green is just that (green) but good off bench for a bit. Hopefully SAR Retires and his $$ come off the books. Maybe a good defender-rebounder like Amundson who has 2 part years in the league now. Don't see Justin Williams on Kings radar, too bad he reminded me a little bit of "Yogi" Stewart. Would not be surprised to see Singletary in Kings training camp as a 3rd PG is necessary insurance.

So maybe GP is done for awhile, eh? and some bubble types get to training camp. Oh well, only a momentary blip in TDOS for RonRon going away.

As it is, even with both our second rounders being used as trade filler, we're at 15, and Geoff seems to think that 14 is his lucky number. I'm really hoping that SAR will retire soon. I'd like to see the team get into a position where it can develop guys like Justin Williams, Dahntay Jones and Sean Singletary, rather than dumping them because the roster's too cramped with old guys who aren't contributing. Let's hope that the logjam ends soon, so that we stop shedding young talent.

 

[Bricklayer]

And again, I want to see even one credible example of players who "had their confidence destroyed" by playing early and often. Its a straw man. Something straight out of Little League. Not professional sports. The players who's confidence crumbles in the NBA are the players who suck. The ones who can play learn and grow on the job, not on the bench.

We have been given one last opportunity with Brad -- he revived long enough to have a good year. But he is aging and injury prone, and the only way he has the same level of year statistically is if he sits on top of our kids again and squishes them like a big fat sumo. The time to trade him is now (actually several years ago, but now will do). Given the Ron deal, such a move finally clears the air (literally) and gives us a reboot (presumably Kenny and SAR can just take a nice long vacation to Tibet for all we care).

The frontcourt is absolutely stacked now with kids who need minutes. And yes, a guy like Mikki is the perfect type of vet to have around just to mind the store. Not good enough to steal minutes from anybody who deserves them, but good enough to fill in when somebody stumbles.

This whole "too much change too quick" mantra is the same idiotic one that got us into this mess in the first place. We should have been done with this phase years ago and onto the climb back up. but here we still sit. And now because we ooh! moved Ron Artest, who barely played in half our games last year, well, we're done. You know, wouldn't want to actually commit to rebuilding or anything. That would bespeak a plan. You do NOT go into a rebuilding year with 3/5 of your starting lineup pushing 30 or over. That's just dumb.

If Bobby and Mikki and Salmons are all there as part of the main rotation, along with young vets like Beno (who has some leader in him) Kevin and Cisco, that's enough for our modest goals. There is no need to be holding onto an inglorious past and choking our kids off because we are terrified of change. We're half a decade from the last time we mattered in this league. Change is good.

 

[Warhawk]

Given the Ron deal, such a move finally clears the air (literally) and gives us a reboot (presumably Kenny and SAR can just take a nice long vacation to Tibet for all we care).

Uh, not Tibet. Hard on the knees. You know, all the mountains and all.

Maybe Florida or something.

 

[bench_blob]

And again, I want to see even one credible example of players who "had their confidence destroyed" by playing early and often. Its a straw man. Something straight out of Little League. Not professional sports. The players who's confidence crumbles in the NBA are the players who suck. The ones who can play learn and grow on the job, not on the bench.

We have been given one last opportunity with Brad -- he revived long enough to have a good year. But he is aging and injury prone, and the only way he has the same level of year statistically is if he sits on top of our kids again and squishes them like a big fat sumo. The time to trade him is now (actually several years ago, but now will do). Given the Ron deal, such a move finally clears the air (literally) and gives us a reboot (presumably Kenny and SAR can just take a nice long vacation to Tibet for all we care).

The frontcourt is absolutely stacked now with kids who need minutes. And yes, a guy like Mikki is the perfect type of vet to have around just to mind the store. Not good enough to steal minutes from anybody who deserves them, but good enough to fill in when somebody stumbles.

This whole "too much change too quick" mantra is the same idiotic one that got us into this mess in the first place. We should have been done with this phase years ago and onto the climb back up. but here we still sit. And now because we ooh! moved Ron Artest, who barely played in half our games last year, well, we're done. You know, wouldn't want to actually commit to rebuilding or anything. That would bespeak a plan. You do NOT go into a rebuilding year with 3/5 of your starting lineup pushing 30 or over. That's just dumb.

If Bobby and Mikki and Salmons are all there as part of the main rotation, along with young vets like Beno (who has some leader in him) Kevin and Cisco, that's enough for our modest goals. There is no need to be holding onto an inglorious past and choking our kids off because we are terrified of change. We're half a decade from the last time we mattered in this league. Change is good.

Wrong. Myopic thinking at its finest. Change is not good if you sabbotage your future by getting neglibile assets in return.

Noccioni and Noah don't excite me at all for Miller. Rebuilding is fine and dandy but an astute GM is going to piece together a collection of talent that is going to mesh. Noah and Hawes together as a center combo??? I am not feeling it. Too much finesse, not enough athleticism.

Noccioni? What does he bring to the team Garcia, Salmons and K-Mart as wing players do not already offer? He gets lost in the mix in my opinion.

Anyway, this is what a GM gets paid to consider. Not change is good, let's make change, let's rebuild, yah we are rebuilding, look at us!!!

No, Geoff is too smart for that.

 

[Bricklayer]

Wrong. Myopic thinking at its finest. Change is not good if you sabbotage your future by getting neglibile assets in return.

Noccioni and Noah don't excite me at all for Miller. Rebuilding is fine and dandy but an astute GM is going to piece together a collection of talent that is going to mesh. Noah and Hawes together as a center combo??? I am not feeling it. Too much finesse, not enough athleticism.

Noccioni? What does he bring to the team Garcia, Salmons and K-Mart as wing players do not already offer? He gets lost in the mix in my opinion.

Anyway, this is what a GM gets paid to consider. Not change is good, let's make change, let's rebuild, yah we are rebuilding, look at us!!!

No, Geoff is too smart for that.

I know you think you are very clever, but probably the best way to further that impression would be just not to make any more not so clever posts.

So let's do this again -- as you are clever I am confident you'll catch on:

1) I'm going to work from the back. Nocioni -- what does Nocioni bring that Garcia, Salmons and Martin do not already offer? Really? Have you ever watched a Bulls game? Ever? Do you know who Nocioni is, and anything at all about the style of game he plays? Sitting here trying to explain what a 230/240 lb tough guy SF/PF brings to the table that a trio of toothpick SG/SF swingmen do not would be beyond pointless. Especially since Noc is not the primary object of the trade.

2) According to the reports the inclusion of Noah is GEOFF'S idea. Geoff was high on him last year. Apparently still is. Makes every bit of sense given everything we know about his preferences in players. If this trade goes through I have no idea where you can backpedal too with any credibility.

3) Of course just as you were yesterday, you are back to merrily conflating your own rather shaky acumen with Geoff's. You apparently do not even know who Nocioni is, and do not like Noah, and so obviously in your world Geoff must agree with you, and must be right. At least this time you finally got around to making a basketball argument (Hawes/Noah are too finesse according to you -- I suspect you missed the irony of suhc an argument given who we are talking about trading). That certainly beats all of the grandiose and supremely silly "that is what a GM gets paid to do!" proclamation dotting every post you make. As if you would know. As if the people posting here who haave given this thing any thought and actually know the players involved haven't been making the exact same calculations.

 

[bloom]

Regarding cutting down on the 15 players:

I don’t see Sheldon in our future plans and if I remember correctly this is his last year. Is it possible to trade him to a team for cash? Especially since I really don’t see him improving that much this year anyway.

I’m really hoping that SAR will either retire before we drop some young talent, or we can trade him. But the possibility of trading SAR before anybody sees his game is probably a 0% chance.

But anyway, I really hope we make some more moves this offseason. It’s starting to get a little exiting, lets not stop right now.

 

[yanon]

If you think trading Brad for Noccioni and Noah is not a good deal, then you're overrating Brad. All Kings fans know that Brad is injury prone and over 32, Brad is one injury away from becoming a liability instead of an asset for this team. The Kings definitely need to make a trade now.

 

[fnordius]

Regarding cutting down on the 15 players:

I don’t see Sheldon in our future plans and if I remember correctly this is his last year. Is it possible to trade him to a team for cash?

Cash counts as $0 for salary match purposes, so we couldn't. If we could find someone who wanted him & Douby, we could trade both of them for one player (and possible other considerations), cutting the roster by one.

 

[Bricklayer]

Regarding cutting down on the 15 players:

I don’t see Sheldon in our future plans and if I remember correctly this is his last year. Is it possible to trade him to a team for cash? Especially since I really don’t see him improving that much this year anyway.

I’m really hoping that SAR will either retire before we drop some young talent, or we can trade him. But the possibility of trading SAR before anybody sees his game is probably a 0% chance.

But anyway, I really hope we make some more moves this offseason. It’s starting to get a little exiting, lets not stop right now.

Well, I was definitely not excited by what I saw of Shelden last year, but I doubt we'll just dump him before he has a chance this season. I think in all liklihood he is pretty much a bust of a lottery pick, but still, we traded for him only 6 months ago, and got to see him for short stints in maybe 20 games? I rather susepct as a young player that he will be given at least this year (a full season) to impress. Then if he does not, we just let him walk after that. Only way I see that working differently is if there were a major deal with a lot of pieces flying around, and he was needed to balance it.

 

[Superman]

I'm not too excited about the prospect of bringing Nocioni and Noah here either, even though I do think this is the time to trade Brad, before he has an opportunity to lower his value. I'm just not thrilled about Nocioni and Noah.

 

[bloom]

Thanks fnordius and Bricklayer for the info...For some reason I thought if a player wasn't making that much, that we could trade for cash. Guess I was wrong. lol Thanks again.

 

[Bricklayer]

Thanks fnordius and Bricklayer for the info...For some reason I thought if a player wasn't making that much, that we could trade for cash. Guess I was wrong. lol Thanks again.

Well, the one thing you can do is dump a guy to a team under the salary cap -- if they have the cap room to take him, you can just trade him for basically nothing in return. That's how the Clips got Camby (all they sent Denver was a 2nd rounder). But again I doubt we would do that, and doubt Shelden has shown the sort of impact for any other team to make such a move -- if there are ever still any teams under the cap. Not sure at the moment. Maybe a team like Oklahoma City might do it, but it would be a long shot. And for a young cheap big like Shelden, there just is no huge rush to move him out of town early. See if he emerges at all this season amongst the crowd of kids. If he does not, its bye bye.

 

[Löwenherz]

Perhaps this is an unrelatable personal reflection, but I've found through my job experiences having around crotchity, burnt-out veterans who are just biding their time before they can leave the company can do much more damage to rookies than throwing an energetic, but inexperienced group into the fire together.

The idea behind amassing a large group of young talent is to let them learn and grow together while playing into and earning their respective roles, without the position being promised to a crotchity, burnt-out vetern.

I think you still need veteran leadership in that case, which in my mind Bobby J., Mikki and SAR fit perfectly.

And honestly, the Kings have never been known for hard-nosed, bruiser players. During my fandom I can count Michael Smith, Doug Christie, Ron Artest, Bonzi Wells and maybe Scot Pollard off the top of my head ... and three of those were Guards/Small Forwards.

Not to meantion with the exception of Artest, "hard-nose" is being generous with all of them anyway.

 

[upinsmoke]

Only Artest and Bonzi have ever been a real banger.

 

[bajaden]

And again, I want to see even one credible example of players who "had their confidence destroyed" by playing early and often. Its a straw man. Something straight out of Little League. Not professional sports. The players who's confidence crumbles in the NBA are the players who suck. The ones who can play learn and grow on the job, not on the bench.

We have been given one last opportunity with Brad -- he revived long enough to have a good year. But he is aging and injury prone, and the only way he has the same level of year statistically is if he sits on top of our kids again and squishes them like a big fat sumo. The time to trade him is now (actually several years ago, but now will do). Given the Ron deal, such a move finally clears the air (literally) and gives us a reboot (presumably Kenny and SAR can just take a nice long vacation to Tibet for all we care).

The frontcourt is absolutely stacked now with kids who need minutes. And yes, a guy like Mikki is the perfect type of vet to have around just to mind the store. Not good enough to steal minutes from anybody who deserves them, but good enough to fill in when somebody stumbles.

This whole "too much change too quick" mantra is the same idiotic one that got us into this mess in the first place. We should have been done with this phase years ago and onto the climb back up. but here we still sit. And now because we ooh! moved Ron Artest, who barely played in half our games last year, well, we're done. You know, wouldn't want to actually commit to rebuilding or anything. That would bespeak a plan. You do NOT go into a rebuilding year with 3/5 of your starting lineup pushing 30 or over. That's just dumb.

If Bobby and Mikki and Salmons are all there as part of the main rotation, along with young vets like Beno (who has some leader in him) Kevin and Cisco, that's enough for our modest goals. There is no need to be holding onto an inglorious past and choking our kids off because we are terrified of change. We're half a decade from the last time we mattered in this league. Change is good.

My goodness, Bricky, who put a bee in your bonnet. All Cruzy and I were doing was kicking around a few ideas. I said I had mixed emotions about it. That sort of means, I'm not sure. As far as damaged ego's go, you almost have to prove it in the abstract. Its sort of like saying that only 5 people get eaten by sharks every year, so there's no danger of going into the water. Unfortunately the stats only show the body's that they found.

Having played sports at a fairly high level, and having seen the results of failure on some players, you and I will just have to respectfully disagree. I will agree with you that players with very strong conviction about themselves will probably be fine.

But back to the subject at hand. I have no problem with trading Miller right now. Perhaps I should have been more clear instead of trying to be humorus at the end of my post. For the right deal, I say yes trade him, but if the deal isn't right, then hopefully, it won't hurt to wait until next offseason. If I had my preference, it would be now.

 

[NME]

Noah and Hawes together as a center combo??? I am not feeling it. Too much finesse, not enough athleticism.

Noah isn't athletic at center? I would think the list of players that you could potentially play at center who are much more athletic than Noah is not very long.

 

[Heuge]

Only Artest and Bonzi have ever been a real banger.

Corlis