Small Forwards, all lost in the fog

CruzDude

Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
#1
Small Forwards and the Kings 2011

Cisco, Omri and Donte, the 3 SF on the Kings roster all year. Cisco was injured and not available for 30-40 games I think but the other two were here all year. Here is my take on the Kings SF and what I, as an armchair GM, think.

Cisco has a history of being a very good stimulant off the bench the past 3-4 years. As a starter he is just not that UMPHH. A good 3pt shooter and weak side defender and good ball handler. Not great with any one thing but dependable and when "on" can bomb a bunch of 3's any given night. A leader type personality on the court and on the bench.

Omri is only a 2nd year Euro player but he is the toughest player on the team, a major hustler and not afraid to bang with anyone. A better than average defender and shooter but not a very good ball handler. Does lead fast breaks more often than not (as long as he doesn't try to dribble too much!) and in first half of year demonstrated he can be a 15 pt, 5 reb starter against most teams.

Donte is the mystery wrapped in an enigma shrouded by a fog. Now in his 3rd year of play, he has never developed a consistency at any aspect of his game. A poor rebounder at 6-10 rarely getting more than a couple a game if that. A 3 pt shooter more than a 3 pt scorer. He can hit 2-3 a game but rarely does that. Runs the floor but not well and seems best at being the OOP end of an Alley-Oop. His inconsistency is worrisome and his stat line lately has been a disaster sometimes getting only 2 points in 15-20 min of play. Not a good decision maker and seems to lack focus on the court.

OK, now so what? First a couple of comments about Kings SF in general. With the addition of Thornton, the touches for the SF have gone down but Kings scoring in general seems to be up, at least it was when Thornton started while Tyreke was still injured and recovering. Thornton was quite an unexpected surprise and major offensive contributor while being good defender. His production complimented the SF's, especially Omri.

Then Tyreke returns gradually then full time and immediately Thornton's time and touches went down but the SF touches even more it seems. This must have been the 20th different starting line up Westphal created, some by necessity due to injuries, some due to performance issues and others due to who knows what. With such a young group, coaching inconsistency hurts.

Greene doesn't contribute night to night. Omri doesn't play at all anymore and Cisco while ok is not a major SF contributor as a starter. A SF needs to put up 12-15 pts a night, hit 20-30 on occasion. Why is that not happening? Not consistent team play and only some improvement in team play the last 10 games or so.

My solution for the last 3 games of the year is:
start Omri,
bring Cisco off the bench
use Greene when a matchup for a 6-10 or 6-11 SF is needed.

When next season starts after the lockout, trade Greene along with a draft choice for a PG or more productive SF. Now I feel better getting all that off my chest. :D
 
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#2
Ehh, unless you are only looking at on the Kings, Omri definitely isn't above average defensively. Right now he's a bit of a liability on D, even with his hustle. Donte has a big advantage there, but I agree with some of the other things you said. I don't really agree, though, that Greene should necessarily be the one traded. I think Omri could fetch more, but Donte fits our needs more so we might be better off trading Omri.
 

Krunker

Northernmost Kings Fan
#3
You mostly listed the negatives on Donte. I think his main positive is his defensive contribution. Who would you rather have guard Kobe? Omri hustles a lot but his basketball IQ is not that great (although neither is Donte's). Donte seems a more positive team-building kind of guy in the locker room too. The Donte Green show is fun to watch too.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#4
Being an Omri fan aside, I think the start Omri thing didn't work when we tried it, and would be even less likely to work now that all the shots in the starting lineup are accounted for. Omri started 27 games this season, averaged 31.3min/gm in those starts, and only 10.7pts 5.2reb 1.1ast on 43.5% shooting. And those were all before we got Reke/Thornton and Cousins all together. There's really not much of a debate to influence at this point, its structural now.

And defensively its pretty clearly Donte > Cisco > Omri. Which is backed up by the numbers -- per 100 possessions we give up +2.8pts with Omri in there, -1.3 with Cisco, and -3.2 with Donte (numbers per 82games.com). And if you have a guy in the lienup who's not going to score much anyway, his defensive ability is a huge key -- otherwise why play him at all?


Here's our race to the bottom starting SF "race" (starting numbers):

Casspi 27gms 31.3min 10.7pts (.435 .356 .683) 5.2reb 1.1ast 0.8stl 0.2blk (Worst Defense)
Garcia 31gms 27.0min 11.3pts (.429 .341 .860) 2.7reb 1.4ast 1.2stl 1.0blk (Medium Defense)
Greene 21gms 25.0min 8.1pts (.380 .297 .522) 3.8reb 1.2ast 0.6stl 0.4blk (Best Defense)

Hardly much call to go promoting any faves or cutting down any of the others with such an awesome array of choices. When it looked like we were still looking for a major weapon, Donte might have failed the hardest, as his ugly offense just about eliminated any hope he would be that. Then the worm turned, Cousins and Thronton arrived, and now all of a sudden Donte has a chance as a roleplayer again because of his superior defense. Meanwhile neither of the other two ever showed any ability to be the major weapon when needed, and are in a struggle to prove they can hack it as roleplayers now that the team's needs have changed. If we were a team in a different position maybe we would just have to live with an ugly platoon and patches going forward. As a team with huge caproom and a top pick however, its hard to imagine why we would do that. So whichever of these guys survives is probably going to have to add "backup" as another one of his qualifications.
 
#5
I've said this in a few other threads, so I'll just go with the short version here ...

Omri is the guy who seems to fit in the least, and the guy who will bring us back the most. If your trading one of them, he's the guy you trade.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#6
I've said this in a few other threads, so I'll just go with the short version here ...

Omri is the guy who seems to fit in the least, and the guy who will bring us back the most. If your trading one of them, he's the guy you trade.
Kind of interesting that the guy that fits the least, seems to have the most trade value. Of course I know why, but it is ironic. There's no doubt that defensively, Donte has the edge. I guess if you still value Casspi, you have to ask yourself whether he can become good enough defensively, and, when combined with his rebounding and scoring, his total package will be better than what Greene brings. I don't have the answer to that question, and I'm not sure I want to go through another year of SF musical chairs to find out.

If Donte is willing to work on his game in the offseason, which means, shoot, shoot, and keep shooting until it becomes almost automatic. If he can become a good to great spot up shooter. Realize that the team isn't going to run any plays for him, and play good defense, then he can be the starting SF. He'll get enough points on kickouts.

I like Casspi a lot, and I think he has potential. But he does have a scorers mentality. And I agree with Bricky, that I'm not sure how that fits with the current makeup of the team. Thats assuming we resign Thornton, and hopefully Dalembert. I love Casspi's aggressive nature. At the same time, its that aggressive nature that gets him in trouble at times, both on offense and defense. It should be an interesting offseason, whenever that happens.
 
#7
I've said this in a few other threads, so I'll just go with the short version here ...

Omri is the guy who seems to fit in the least, and the guy who will bring us back the most. If your trading one of them, he's the guy you trade.

It was a similar story with Landry. While he was the better player, JT fit better with the players we have. So we traded him for a need and it has looked good so far.
 
#9
Jordan Hamilton, or Harrison Barnes.

I like Hamilton though more so than Barnes as being able to fit in with this team. He's not the greatest off the dribble, but can catch and shoot real well. that's what we need most imo. Barnes is more of a "ball in his hands" kind of player.
 
#10

Omri is only a 2nd year Euro player but he is the toughest player on the team, a major hustler and not afraid to bang with anyone. A better than average defender and shooter but not a very good ball handler. Does lead fast breaks more often than not (as long as he doesn't try to dribble too much!) and in first half of year demonstrated he can be a 15 pt, 5 reb starter against most teams.
Is the average Kevin Martin? cause Omri is surely a weak, lower then average defender as of right now.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#11
(Plugging my radio interview) The subject was Omri. To summarize my thoughts, I said two things about him germaine to this thread. #1 He is better off elsewhere right now and we need a starter. #2 Who knows what he will be like a few years from now? He can't be faulted for determination. He might never fit on this team as a shoot first SF isn't what we need in the immediate future.

Donte dissappoints me incredibly. Can we infuse the determination of Omri, the athleticism of Donte, and the veteran leadership of Cisco in one body?
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#12
I don't know why we're all hellbent on having another supreme offensive weapon at the 3 spot. There is only one ball to go around on the court at a time. We simply need someone at the three spot who can defend, hit the open kick out shot, and not throw a hissyfit when Tyreke, Demarcus, and Marcus all take 15 more shots than him.

Is James Harden a better player than Thabo? Yes. Is Thabo more important to the team? Probably.
 
#13
I don't know why we're all hellbent on having another supreme offensive weapon at the 3 spot. There is only one ball to go around on the court at a time. We simply need someone at the three spot who can defend, hit the open kick out shot, and not throw a hissyfit when Tyreke, Demarcus, and Marcus all take 15 more shots than him.

Is James Harden a better player than Thabo? Yes. Is Thabo more important to the team? Probably.
Then why not Jamario Moon, or shall I say....... ANTONIO ANDERSON! :) Sorry.. he's one of my fav all time Tigers and he would be able to play the 3 (although he would be a bit undersized).